Serenity without Firefly

[Listener]

IIRC, I think they're in the comic book movie-tie-in (as is more of a detailed explanation of why Book and Inara left the ship).  I haven't actually read the whole thing, just kind of skimmed through it in the bookstore.

I have that on my shelf, and I read it.  I just think they were villains worthy of screen time, if not in Serenity the film then in a future film or other live-action adventure like a webisode.  Not to say the Operative wasn't a great villain, because he really really was, but there was a borg-like menace about the Blue Hand Group.

[DKT]

I hear what you're saying, Listener.  I would've liked to have seen them get more time on the screen, too.  They were really built up as the big bad guys right before the show got cancelled. Maybe if Firefly/Serenity somehow continues...

[Michael]

This has always been what has impressed me the most about Joss Whedon--like a good chess player he thinks many moves out.  He isn't making it up as he goes along.  The whole story, and back story, of his characters are in his mind when he starts. 

I have all 7 Seasons of Buffy on DVD, and when he comments on an episode he will mention that something is here because of something else that will happen up to two years in the future. 

There could have been an entire year planned on Shepherd Book's history as a high ranking Alliance operative, why and how he renounced his position, and what exactly it was.  Those were stories ready to tell from the amount of foreshadowing.  In fact, River and Simon seemed to be in some ways the less important traveller on Serenity. 

[ClintMemo]

I'm on disk 4 and it's making me sad knowing that I'm almost at the end.  I'll have to pick up the movie this week, then find the comics after that.

Damn, that was a good show.

[Listener]

I have all 7 Seasons of Buffy on DVD, and when he comments on an episode he will mention that something is here because of something else that will happen up to two years in the future. 

And then sometimes you get a whole 42 minutes of commentary that you really don't comprehend. 

cf: "Objects in Space"

[Simon]

Hmm, I think the time has come to leave the closet...

I like Firefly, really, I do...  Honestly.  I enjoyed every episode, and thought the movie was a pretty good conclusion.  For a while I thought it was the best TV SF I'd seen in a few years.

However, the Internet's firefly obsession drives me absolutely batshit.  I am Glad, GLAD, it's gone. 

American Television is absolutely terrible at concluding stories, particularly in science fiction, I think it's to do with the way they are scripted...  So often a series starts off with massive amounts of foreshadowing, and unknown elements (the classic example is Lost, but The X-Files is another good mark) that are slowly alluded to over the season.  These start off well, but the requirement for 20 episode seasons and series after series of product mean that these themes get flogged to death and distorted...  The magnificent X-Files turned into the "black goo, pregnant Scully, killer bees" show, Lost completely lost the plot, and don't even talk to me about the supposed exception to this rule - Babylon 5.  Buffy went to hell in a handcart because every single unknown theme needed to be fleshed out, flogged, thrashed, until it was a zombie production and they were pissing about with "sister keys" and multiple slayers.

And then there was Firefly, a series that I new from the first moment I watched it wasn't going to have a chance to thrash its mysteries to death.  I felt exactly the same way about that old classic Dark Skies, where early cancellation meant it could never kill off its Hoover-era mystery.  Cancellation has been a boon, because no-human can maintain high quality productivity in a story arch (you can do it as a soap opera like The Sopranos or The West Wing, but SF is different - it needs a plot), and therefore what we see is fantastic mystery.

But somewhere along the line the internet went bat-shit crazy over firefly, a fundamentally slightly-above-average SF series with a few cute mysteries got elevated by the fact that it was by Wheedon, and that there would never be a conclusion to the myths he was building.  Until the web is dripping with fan-fiction and Eight Episodes gets nominated for a Hugo, and on Escape Pod it gets voted up as the best SF series of all time(http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=449.0).

Am I missing something here?  When did Bonanza in Space become the saviour of Science Fiction?

[ClintMemo]

I picked up the movie yesterday, but I haven't watched it yet.

and to answer Simon, I'll just say why I like Firefly so much.

For me:
The characters were interesting, well written, and had realistic personalities.
The setting was interesting.
The individual stories were all entertaining and several had twists that I did not see coming but still seemed logical.
The dialog was excellent.
The humor was mostly character based, not one-liners or pratfalls.
It had a great cast with no weak actors.

In comparison:
I'm not a big Joss Whedon groupee. I've seen some episodes of Buffy, and a few of Angel.  I thought they were good shows, but not so compelling that I found myself planning my schedule around them.

I saw all of Babylon 5 and I really liked it, but let's be honest, it's far from perfect. The overall story was superb, but some of the dialog is only passable and the acting ranges from excellent to well, not so excellent.

I've seen most of the x-files and I was a big fan once I got into it.  The overall story became a big mess.  I always got the idea that the creators did all the foreshadowing with no intention of ever having to reveal exactly what it meant because they didn't think they would be on the air that long.  At some point, I think they decided to try to shoehorn a story to meet the foreshadowing.   For me, the best episodes were always the ones that had nothing to do with the overall plot.  They were just good stories with good characters - Mulder and Scully were a great TV duo.

I think Firefly has such a good rep mostly because it wasn't on long enough to fall apart.  They only got to do 14 episodes and every one is good.  I could easily see them being able to maintain the quality of the show for two seasons or more, but if they had gone on as long as Voyager, then I'm sure they would have made their Warp 10 episodes as well.
Most good shows go on too long. This show didn't go on nearly long enough.

I'm looking forward to watching the movie.

[ClintMemo]

Just finished watching the movie - loved it! 

To simulate the experience of "regular" viewers, I watched the show on my laptop but watched the movie on my home theater.
(Ok, I didn't plan on doing that, but it happened to come out that way)

Now I'm sad that there isn't any more to watch. 

[Thaurismunths]

Just finished watching the movie - loved it! 

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch me..." *THUNK*

[RichGarner]

I have all 7 Seasons of Buffy on DVD, and when he comments on an episode he will mention that something is here because of something else that will happen up to two years in the future. 

And then sometimes you get a whole 42 minutes of commentary that you really don't comprehend. 

cf: "Objects in Space"

Sometimes, the commentary is just filler because they had nothing good to talk about. I mean, that ep was not the most thought out... although it was one of the more amusing.

[Michael]

Obviously I disagree with Simon, (and so did Whedon, he was pissed off).  There were still very many good stories to tell, and I wasn't in the least bit bored by epidose 14, and would have liked to see 15, 16, 17... 

No doubt successful shows can hang on too long, and "jump the shark"--this one didn't.

 

[ClintMemo]

Obviously I disagree with Simon, (and so did Whedon, he was pissed off).  There were still very many good stories to tell, and I wasn't in the least bit bored by epidose 14, and would have liked to see 15, 16, 17... 

No doubt successful shows can hang on too long, and "jump the shark"--this one didn't.

 

Having watched the show and then the movie back-to-back, I really wished there had been episodes 15-23 or even 15-46. 
btw, I loved Objects in Space
"Does that seem right to you?"

[Listener]

American Television is absolutely terrible at concluding stories, particularly in science fiction, I think it's to do with the way they are scripted...  So often a series starts off with massive amounts of foreshadowing, and unknown elements (the classic example is Lost, but The X-Files is another good mark) that are slowly alluded to over the season. 

I really didn't want to quote the whole post, Simon.  Sorry.

Anyway, I think part of the reason the best anime is short-run anime (Lain, Evangelion, FLCL, Bebop) is because it doesn't have a chance to get old and tired.  Most stories can be told in 26 episodes, provided you don't have to worry about leaving the threads for a sequel*.  I think Lost would've been perfect if it'd run in one or even two seasons.  I read somewhere that the third season of Prison Break will be the last, which is the only reason I'm even watching the third season.

There has to be a goal, or an endpoint, and it has to be in sight from the beginning.  Otherwise you run the risk of just going on and on and having crappy filler episodes while on the way to your grand conclusion.  The sequel mentality of the market means that you'll rarely get something great that stands on its own.

Episode IV stood on its own.  Episode V and VI depend on each other.

"The Fifth Sorceress" by Robert Newcomb, for all its flaws, stood on its own.  The next two books do not (especially the third).

It's possible to continue building a world and telling new stories in that world -- CSI, Private Practice/Grey's Anatomy, Law & Order, even Star Trek.  You just have to know when to stop.  I think that Joss Whedon is the kind of guy who, despite the massive popularity Firefly would've eventually garnered, would've stopped the show after the fourth season if he felt he'd told all the stories he could.

* - I read an interview with the writers for the Transformers movie a couple of years ago where they said 'we've got the story all wrapped up except for the hook for a sequel'... that pissed me off... we do not need sequels to everything.

[ClintMemo]

Episode IV stood on its own.  Episode V and VI depend on each other.

I think they just fell into the standard fantasy trilogy form.
Part 1 - introduce heroes and have heroes stop villain's plan
Part 2 - villain goes after heroes and everything goes to hell
Part 3 - heroes pull themselves together and destroy villain once and for all
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that structure. It just seems to get used a lot.

It's possible to continue building a world and telling new stories in that world -- CSI, Private Practice/Grey's Anatomy, Law & Order, even Star Trek.

It depends on whether or not you are going for an overall story arc.  The original ST had no overall arc. The characters were just a means to tell the story of the week.  With that structure, you can go on forever as long as you can continue to create interesting stories to tell.

* - I read an interview with the writers for the Transformers movie a couple of years ago where they said 'we've got the story all wrapped up except for the hook for a sequel'... that pissed me off... we do not need sequels to everything.

Well, some movies are made for artistic reasons and some are made to accumulate large piles of cash.

[Russell Nash]

Episode IV stood on its own.  Episode V and VI depend on each other.

I think they just fell into the standard fantasy trilogy form.
Part 1 - introduce heroes and have heroes stop villain's plan
Part 2 - villain goes after heroes and everything goes to hell
Part 3 - heroes pull themselves together and destroy villain once and for all
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that structure. It just seems to get used a lot.

Lucas said in the DVD extras that this three part form is the way you write a story. He was typically arrogant about it.

[DKT]

Interesting.  I think for the first trilogy, that idea worked very well (and to be fair, I don't think it'd been done very much in SF cinema, at least not that well, back when the original movies first came out).  Pity he didn't really follow his own advice for the second trilogy. 

[ClintMemo]

Interesting.  I think for the first trilogy, that idea worked very well (and to be fair, I don't think it'd been done very much in SF cinema, at least not that well, back when the original movies first came out).  Pity he didn't really follow his own advice for the second trilogy. 

I'm not sure he could have.  Annakin has to become Darth Vader and I'm not sure how you could have a happy ending and leave things the way they needed to be for Episode IV.
I think the biggest problem with Eps 1-3 is that Lucas wrote the scripts and directed them.  I really wish he would cast off Star Wars and let other people make movies in the Star Wars universe.
But that's for another thread....

[Listener]

Interesting.  I think for the first trilogy, that idea worked very well (and to be fair, I don't think it'd been done very much in SF cinema, at least not that well, back when the original movies first came out).  Pity he didn't really follow his own advice for the second trilogy. 

I'm not sure he could have.  Annakin has to become Darth Vader and I'm not sure how you could have a happy ending and leave things the way they needed to be for Episode IV.

Personally I'm happy with unhappy endings provided the story is served.  "Ariel" (to bring it back to the topic here) had kind of an unhappy ending -- we find out just how much of an asshat Jayne can be, which reminds us that even though he's one of Our Heroes, he's still a mercenary willing to sell out River and Simon.  The one with Tracey (Mal and Zoe's war buddy) didn't have a very happy ending either.

I think it's the not-happy endings that stick with you, and I think Whedon gets that, and I think he knows his intended audience gets it too.

[ClintMemo]

Personally I'm happy with unhappy endings provided the story is served.  "Ariel" (to bring it back to the topic here) had kind of an unhappy ending -- we find out just how much of an asshat Jayne can be, which reminds us that even though he's one of Our Heroes, he's still a mercenary willing to sell out River and Simon.  The one with Tracey (Mal and Zoe's war buddy) didn't have a very happy ending either.

I think it's the not-happy endings that stick with you, and I think Whedon gets that, and I think he knows his intended audience gets it too.

Good unhappy endings can make good happy endings better because you have the two in contrast.

[Russell Nash]

Personally I'm happy with unhappy endings provided the story is served.  "Ariel" (to bring it back to the topic here) had kind of an unhappy ending -- we find out just how much of an asshat Jayne can be, which reminds us that even though he's one of Our Heroes, he's still a mercenary willing to sell out River and Simon.  The one with Tracey (Mal and Zoe's war buddy) didn't have a very happy ending either.

I think it's the not-happy endings that stick with you, and I think Whedon gets that, and I think he knows his intended audience gets it too.

Good unhappy endings can make good happy endings better because you have the two in contrast.

I'll take this idea and twist it into my own. 

When we know there's going to be a happy ending (see any romantic comedy), it's just so boring, because we know where they are going to end up.  If we have a TV show or movie director that doesn't mind giving us the unhappy ending then two things happen.  First they use the better ending, happy or sad, and therefore a better watching experience.  Second since we don't know which is coming the happy ending, when it does come, is still a surprise and therefore a better watching experience.

[slic]

I'm still totally pissed that Wash got killed!  There was no need for it, and don't give me that life is totally random balony because that isn't life it's a script!

Anyway, I loved the series and while Simon is right, it isn't the single best sci-fi show, it was damned good, and I think foofora (sp?) is it's simialr to seeing a young life ending too soon.  People are mouring the potential as much as show itself.

-- we find out just how much of an asshat Jayne can be, which reminds us that even though he's one of Our Heroes, he's still a mercenary willing to sell out River and Simon.

Sure, but he won back a ton of points by asking Capt not to tell anyone - he was ashamed of what he had done.  Same sort of thing with "Janestown"  Jane was always my very favourite charater - just edging out Wash.

Whedon is really great with the twist happy into sad ending. Wash dying was a poor example (mutter,absolutely unnecessary, mumble,mutter), but a really great one was Season 6 of Buffy.  She dies at the end of 5, (saving the world, and her little sister, natch) and her friends resurrect her because it's just not fair, and what if shes trapped in some kind of evil dimension.  And everyone is soooo happy - but in this bizarre/cool musical episode Buffy reveals that she was in "Heaven" and at peace, and being back on Earth is hard and dirty and not-fun!  So now you feel horrible for her, and you imagine how bad her very best friend Willow must feel for having spearheaded the whole thing!  Now that is an unhappy happy ending!

[ClintMemo]

Well, since we're tossing out movie spoilers....

The only thing I didn't like about the movie was that Shepherd Book had such a small part.  I would really like to have seen something about where her came from.

I was ticked about Wash, too, but I got over it. I really liked Wash but since we'll probably never see them again on screen anyway, I didn't mind too much that he got killed late in the movie.
I remember one scene in one the later episodes where he and Zoe were talking about having a child.   Seeing those two as parents could have been - hilarious. 

I liked everyone and the all had a chance to shine at different points on the show.  One of my favorite bits was the beginning of "Objects in Space" where you see things as Summer sees them - Holy Crap! No wonder she acts so messed up.  Well, that and the torture and brain surgery.

Others:
Mal walking onto Serenity and shooting the guy that Simon is trying to talk down.
Jane trying to trade Vera for Saphron.
Book: "a special place in Hell"
Wash and the Dinosaurs
Book: "a little fuzzy about kneecaps"
Mal: "...cause your part of the crew. Why are we still talking about this?"

I could go on and on...

[slic]

Well, since we're tossing out movie spoilers....

I waited until you mentioned that you had already seen the movie...

One of my favourite scenes is Book's hair untied and how it scares Summer.
I could list a dozen more easily. 

The show had such memorable moments, and out of 13 shows there was only 1 that I don't particularly like.  I think if there had been a couple of full seasons, the outcry wouldn't be so great - it's feels like seeing the trailer to a really great movie and then no movie.

[ClintMemo]

Well, since we're tossing out movie spoilers....

I waited until you mentioned that you had already seen the movie...

Thanks

One of my favourite scenes is Book's hair untied and how it scares Summer.
I could list a dozen more easily. 

The show had such memorable moments, and out of 13 shows there was only 1 that I don't particularly like. 

Which one?

[Thaurismunths]

The only thing I didn't like about the movie was that Shepherd Book had such a small part.  I would really like to have seen something about where her came from.

I believe that he use to be an Operative.
Anyone else get that?