Author Topic: PC263: Beyond the Shrinking World  (Read 12727 times)

pixelante

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Reply #25 on: June 19, 2013, 04:10:08 PM
Not here to comment on the story, it was kinda interesting, but I didn't get the chilling eldritch vibe that I get when I read of the Cthulhu Mythos.

As to the grimdark having read a lot of warhammer 40K fiction I can venture an opinion, but I am by no means an expert. The Black Library has a lot of authors writing in that universe so its not easy to point at the universe and say this is grimdark, even with the tagline. In Ultramarines you see the heroism of the Space Marines, but Graham McNeill has a difficult time getting across the horror and corruption of Chaos, even when the main character is trapped on a demon world the descriptions are graphic, but there is no....substance to them.
In contrast is Sandy Mitchell's Ciahpas Cain which is a rollicking tale about a commissar of the Imperial Guard the epitome of the grimdark universe, except it turns out he is just a regular guy who likes his comforts and would be quite happy sitting out the whole war nursing a drink and an artillery regiment far behind the frontlines. Oh course he doesn't get to do that, because that wopuld be quite boring, instead he gets thrown into the thick of things despite his best efforts and we get a good taste of some fantastic wit and sarcasm.
Those are just two examples, but overall I don't think Warhammer is the real grimdark.
No grimdark is where the heroes are few and far between and the characters you fall in love with are the anti-heroes. Men like Sandor Clegane and Tyrion Lannister to whom life has dealt a shitty hand, but they make do with what they have. It is the horror and revulsion you feel towards Ramsey Snow, not for torturing Theon Greyjoy, but breaking him.  So GRRM is a good example of grimdark, hell its literally his name :)
Another good author who I feel does the grimdark genre justice is Stephen Eriksson, his Tales of the Malazan Book of the Fallen is packed with anti-heroes who are reluctant heroes at best and quite happy to put a crossbow bolt between the villain's eyes in the middle of a monologue.
This is what grimdark is, not the shiny hero, but the career soldier with the trenching tool who knows winning is about fighting dirtier than your opponent.



Devoted135

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Reply #26 on: June 21, 2013, 01:35:33 AM
I've honestly never heard of grimdark before this episode.

I had a really hard time grasping this story, and unfortunately not enough time to go back for a second listen. I had some of the same difficulty with pronouns that Max described, and also simply had a hard time keeping the characters straight. I feel like the world described was rich and could easily support a much longer story, but for some reason it just never settled in for me. :-\

Can anyone explain the tattoos thing?



Talia

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Reply #27 on: July 05, 2013, 02:22:11 PM
Enjoyable, if a little dark for my tastes. I found it hard to sympathize with the protagonist too much because he kept slaughtering seemingly innocent people without an ounce of guilt. Made him not much better than a serial killer in my eyes.

I also had never heard the term 'GrimDark' before.

I've honestly never heard of grimdark before this episode.

I had a really hard time grasping this story, and unfortunately not enough time to go back for a second listen. I had some of the same difficulty with pronouns that Max described, and also simply had a hard time keeping the characters straight. I feel like the world described was rich and could easily support a much longer story, but for some reason it just never settled in for me. :-\

Can anyone explain the tattoos thing?

Which? The knight's anti-lying tattoos that he cut off, or the Mapmaker's, that sort of, as far as I could tell, synched the physical world with her body? That was the impression I got anyway. She gained total control over the land when she made it a part of herself.




Devoted135

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Reply #28 on: July 05, 2013, 03:36:51 PM

Can anyone explain the tattoos thing?

Which? The knight's anti-lying tattoos that he cut off, or the Mapmaker's, that sort of, as far as I could tell, synched the physical world with her body? That was the impression I got anyway. She gained total control over the land when she made it a part of herself.

I guess I meant the Knight's anti-lying tattoos, plus didn't his companion have some tattoos as well? I totally missed the part about the Mapmaker's tattoos... :-[



Talia

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Reply #29 on: July 05, 2013, 04:22:36 PM

Can anyone explain the tattoos thing?

Which? The knight's anti-lying tattoos that he cut off, or the Mapmaker's, that sort of, as far as I could tell, synched the physical world with her body? That was the impression I got anyway. She gained total control over the land when she made it a part of herself.

I guess I meant the Knight's anti-lying tattoos, plus didn't his companion have some tattoos as well? I totally missed the part about the Mapmaker's tattoos... :-[

I wasn't sure if what the Mapmaker had going on were tattoos or something else. Her flesh and the world were linked somehow, that's all I know.

But yeah, the Knight had these magic tattoos under his tongue that were required when he joined the order I guess, and he cut them off (OUCH) with his boss's permission so he could lie to the Mapmaker and kill her genocidal butt. :)



Devoted135

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Reply #30 on: July 05, 2013, 04:45:47 PM

Can anyone explain the tattoos thing?

Which? The knight's anti-lying tattoos that he cut off, or the Mapmaker's, that sort of, as far as I could tell, synched the physical world with her body? That was the impression I got anyway. She gained total control over the land when she made it a part of herself.

I guess I meant the Knight's anti-lying tattoos, plus didn't his companion have some tattoos as well? I totally missed the part about the Mapmaker's tattoos... :-[

I wasn't sure if what the Mapmaker had going on were tattoos or something else. Her flesh and the world were linked somehow, that's all I know.

But yeah, the Knight had these magic tattoos under his tongue that were required when he joined the order I guess, and he cut them off (OUCH) with his boss's permission so he could lie to the Mapmaker and kill her genocidal butt. :)

Ahh, okay. Thanks! :)



ElectricPaladin

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Reply #31 on: July 08, 2013, 07:23:08 PM
You know how sometimes some smarmy-brilliant author takes some idea that you had back in - say - middle school and FREAKING WRITES IT INTO A BRILLIANT SHORT STORY?

Damnit. I hate when that happens.

It's actually not that bad. My idea is different enough, and it's not what you do so much as it's how you do it and blah blah blah blah blah. Long story short - I loved this one. I have a love-hate relationship with classic fantasy, and stories that send it up or take it apart, spinning out familiar elements in unfamiliar ways, remain some of my favorites. This one was particularly well done. The moral quandary and compromise at the heart of the story was very interesting; is it better to lose everything in the hope of a better future, or is it better to die as you are? I am personally inclined to chose the former - put me down as one of the mapmaker's supporters, please - but that doesn't mean I don't see the conflict.

My only tiny, tiny, tiny quibble is that the main character was so free of doubts, himself. As I read it, he was so completely devoted to his mistress that he had no qualms about what he was doing. If the main character had embodied the conflict, rather than simply being witness to it, I think the story would have been even stronger.

Regardless, it was an excellent story, and I will definitely seek out more work by the author, and in this setting.

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DKT

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Reply #32 on: July 16, 2013, 04:25:14 PM
So, noticing a lot of people haven't heard of GrimDark. (Lucky bastards.)

Here are some of the articles I read about in preparation for this one, should the curious want to tumble down the rabbit's bloody, skull-filled hole:

Know Your Meme: Grimdark (the definition, etc.)

Joe Abercrombie: The Value of Grit

Foz Meadows: On Grittiness and Grimdark.

A Dribble of Ink (featuring Elizabeth Bear): I Love a Good Tragedy as Much as the Next Guy

There were more, as well as conversations on twitter, but those were the big ones. Hope it helps!


Scattercat

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Reply #33 on: July 18, 2013, 07:33:39 PM
I just realized I never commented on this story. 

It was awesome, which is probably why.  What can you say about an awesome story other than wooooooooooooo?

In particular, I enjoyed the contagious insanity of the demon and a weapon made of nothingness.  High concept, top marks.



alexr

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Reply #34 on: August 20, 2013, 02:03:52 AM
I put off listening to this one for a bit – I usually listen to Podcastle before hitting the hay of an evening, and all the discussion of grimdark in the intro sent me off in search of lighter fare. When I finally decided to listen, I didn't really have high hopes. I was completely wrong, though; I loved this story! I was completely absorbed by the intricate setting (helped by some stellar narration), and I really liked the way it ended. The travelling-between-worlds theme reminded me a bit of Daniel Rabuzzi's The Choir Boats a little bit, which is a novel I can definitely recommend reading. Thanks, Podcastle!

(I was so pleasantly surprised by this one that I felt I had to register and sing its praises. Hello! :D )



ChairmanDances

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Reply #35 on: March 14, 2014, 04:12:56 AM

FWIW, I'm a big fan of stories where the world feels fully realized, and yet at the same time - also feels like we've only scratched the surface of what's there. When I get to the end of a story, I love to feel like there's much more waiting out there to be explored.

I feel this way as well - that's a big part of what I'm looking for when I read Fantasy or SF.  Not to say character an plot aren't important, but those elements are universal to good storytelling.  Getting a glimpse of a new world; Middle Earth, Ring World, etc. that's well realized, consistent, but beyond anything I could have imagined is something I can only find here.

I'm not familiar with "Grimdark", but this felt like dark fantasy, like an Elric story.  The concept of the world, of the Out encroaching on lands, is the flip side of a concept that Moorcock used in at least one Elric story.  In that world, the far edges of the known lands end in swirling chaos and human champions can create new lands by advancing step by step into that chaos.  Is "Grimdark" more along the lines of the old Grimjack comic universe of Cynosure?

And speaking of comics, I think the Mapmaker trope might have been picked up in a recent Avengers run - different Earths across the multiverse were being destroyed but before that happened "mapmakers' appeared to chronicle that particular world before its destruction.