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Author Topic: Vista DRM  (Read 8009 times)
FNH
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« on: March 05, 2007, 03:22:24 PM »

I loved Steve's take on Vista's DRM, gave me a real good long laugh.  About half way through the story I started to "get" it.  Nice stuff.

DRM = Evil.  Creative Commons = Good.

[Rant] I bought a computer, not a blummin HiDef-DVD player, so dont stick me with all of the extra CPU cycles betwixt keyboard and screen just to flippin encrypt the stream.  If I get a single false-positive, that recycles any of my sub-systems I'll scream to world that Linux is the way to go!!![End Rant]

... sometimes you have to just say it.
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ClintMemo
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« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2007, 03:30:24 PM »

I had no idea what he was talking about until he said that line and when he did I laughed so hard I almost had to pull over.

I've been a windows user since windows 3.0 (like 1992 ?), not by choice really, just because it's been everywhere I've been.  Like a lot of my friends (with the same type of history), we're all dreading the day we have to "upgrade" to Vista, because we've heard so much negativity about it.  We're all perfectly happy with XP and have no desire to leave it behind.  If it's half as bad as they say it is, I may just consider getting a Mac next time instead, or (finally) learning about Linux.

I'm sure that are about a gazillion users with the same feelings I have.
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Reap3r
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« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2007, 10:11:07 PM »

or (finally) learning about Linux.

[rant] Trust me, DO NOT USE LINUX, unless you want alot of headaches. I'm on one right now(Yes, there are 2 windows computers in my house as well, but this one is in my room. If I wanted a computer in my room, this was my only option until I can buy my own compuer), and unless you already know linux, it's not worth it. I still haven't gotten any videos to work and I can barely do anything with mp3s, and from the horror stories my dad told me, he can get them both to work after many hours of work, and that's if the installation doesn't totally screw up the system. Linux makes me want to jump out off a very tall building(yes, I will have a parachute if I do)[/rant]

Basicly, never say your going to use Linux around me or I will hunt you down and throw a penguin at you.

O, and I heard that Windows is going to take back Vista and put out a better version of XP, or maybe that's just what everyone wants them to do.
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Thinking? I've never heard of that. Is it some kind of food? Please tell me it tastes better than those sick pop tarts filled with meat. You know, Hot Pockets. What, thinking isn't a food? Well then, what is it? Does it have to be built. I hate building things. JUST TELL ME NOW! O look, a bird.
madjo
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« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2007, 05:26:19 AM »

or (finally) learning about Linux.

[rant] Trust me, DO NOT USE LINUX, unless you want alot of headaches. I'm on one right now(Yes, there are 2 windows computers in my house as well, but this one is in my room. If I wanted a computer in my room, this was my only option until I can buy my own compuer), and unless you already know linux, it's not worth it. I still haven't gotten any videos to work and I can barely do anything with mp3s, and from the horror stories my dad told me, he can get them both to work after many hours of work, and that's if the installation doesn't totally screw up the system. Linux makes me want to jump out off a very tall building(yes, I will have a parachute if I do)[/rant]

Basicly, never say your going to use Linux around me or I will hunt you down and throw a penguin at you.
At home I use Linux all the time... and I come from a Windows-only world.
If you can't get it to work, doesn't mean that no-one can get it to work.

In Ubuntu (and any derivatives of it) getting stuff to work is pretty straightforward, or otherwise there is good documentation on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ that'll help you get it running.
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Russell Nash
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« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2007, 05:39:54 AM »

or (finally) learning about Linux.

[rant] Trust me, DO NOT USE LINUX, unless you want alot of headaches. I'm on one right now(Yes, there are 2 windows computers in my house as well, but this one is in my room. If I wanted a computer in my room, this was my only option until I can buy my own compuer), and unless you already know linux, it's not worth it. I still haven't gotten any videos to work and I can barely do anything with mp3s, and from the horror stories my dad told me, he can get them both to work after many hours of work, and that's if the installation doesn't totally screw up the system. Linux makes me want to jump out off a very tall building(yes, I will have a parachute if I do)[/rant]

Basicly, never say your going to use Linux around me or I will hunt you down and throw a penguin at you.
At home I use Linux all the time... and I come from a Windows-only world.
If you can't get it to work, doesn't mean that no-one can get it to work.

In Ubuntu (and any derivatives of it) getting stuff to work is pretty straightforward, or otherwise there is good documentation on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ that'll help you get it running.

I love my Mac. Opened the box, turned it on, it worked. No need to "get it to work."
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ClintMemo
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« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2007, 07:55:44 AM »


O, and I heard that Windows is going to take back Vista and put out a better version of XP, or maybe that's just what everyone wants them to do.

I saw an opinion piece asking MS to essentially not stop selling XP, but I don't think MS has any serious plans to "take Vista back."  According to the piece, Windows ME was a debacle, but since windows2000 (a separate OS in a different upgrade path) was out, people had an option that was still windows. ME did a lot to spur sales of 2000. Tongue 
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ClintMemo
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« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2007, 08:00:33 AM »


I love my Mac. Opened the box, turned it on, it worked. No need to "get it to work."

My Dell Laptop has XP Home on it and it was the same way.  It was the first machine I ever bought with a pre-installed OS.  In fact, it was the first machine I bought as a machine (not as components that I assembled) since my Tandy1000 (we're talking 1985?).   When the day comes that I have to buy another machine, I'm sure I'll get one that has something pre-installed - I just don't know if it is going to be a Mac or a Linux PC, or something with a non-vista version of windows.
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fiveyearwinter
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« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2007, 08:35:07 AM »

My 12" Powerbook G4 (Evolution) is like my right hand, when it comes to my digital life. It's my second brain. I adore it. I am not a windows hater by any means, but I'm definitely a satisfied switcher.
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SFEley
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« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2007, 09:24:13 AM »

Just to make clear, because a few people have been e-mailing me and telling me to get a Mac:

I don't actually own a Windows Vista machine.  I was operating from hearsay.  (Which isn't entirely fair, I'll grant.)

I do own three Macs.  I record Escape Pod on a Mac Mini, edit it on an iMac, and have a MacBook Pro for getting things done elsewhere. 

I used to be a serious Linux geek myself, from about 1995 onwards.  I've built boxes on several distributions: Slackware, Red Hat, SuSE, Gentoo, and Linux From Scratch.  I've also administered FreeBSD (although not on my box, on someone else's).  In all that time I lived mostly on the command line.  Which was great, I think that's where the real power is; but also, I never once was able to configure graphics and sound so that they did exactly what I want, when wanted it, without crashing and without lots of extra steps.  X and GNOME were things I started up when I needed them and then stopped, because they just weren't stable enough to run all the time. 

I don't have a Linux box running any more.  This Mac I'm on gives me all of the same capabilities and all of the command line power, but with a desktop that works without my having to dive into configuration files all the time, initiate multi-step sequences to get sound going, or start/stop X to keep it stable.  I've also never once had to screw around with drivers or kernel modules to make hardware work.  (Although there is a lot of hardware that won't work at all -- but that's true for Linux too.)  It's a Unix-like system that allows me to focus on completing my tasks instead of maintaining it.

It's not a perfect machine.  I have my share of frustrations with Macs too.  And I'm not fooling myself that Apple's a pure and noble company -- they play dirty pool as much as Microsoft does, and sometimes more.  Linux is certainly purer from an ideological perspective.  But I've had fewer frustrations with my Macs than with any other modern OS -- and I feel like as I grew out of wanting to tinker all the time, of inefficiently diving into the innards of a system just for fun, I also grew out of Linux.
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SFEley
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« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2007, 09:36:14 AM »

I loved Steve's take on Vista's DRM, gave me a real good long laugh.  About half way through the story I started to "get" it.  Nice stuff.

DRM = Evil.  Creative Commons = Good.

By the way, that's also not where I was going.  I don't think of it as a "good/evil" dichotomy.  I have a very short list of things in the world I consider evil, and none of them are technologies.

Creative Commons isn't always good.  There are contexts in which it isn't practical; business models that couldn't succeed by giving their stuff away.  I'm trying to prove now that podcasts can succeed under specific circumstances by giving their stuff away, but that doesn't mean everything can.

And DRM isn't "evil" to me.  There are times when it isn't.  I do believe it's being taken too far in some cases, and getting in the way of reasonable functionality.  I believe that's going to lead to a consumer backlash that'll be very bad for the businesses that rely on it.  But that's not morally wrong, it's just a bad idea.  If I really thought DRM was "evil," I wouldn't own a DVD player.
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fiveyearwinter
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« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2007, 09:54:19 AM »

Linux, to me, has always seemed not worth my time. Windows was and OS X is sufficient for my needs - and I believe in both systems there is a lot of untapped power.

Linux is certainly more "pure" ideologically, but that comes at a cost. I screwed up like, 3 Ubuntu installations because I improperly used root (trying to fix a configuration file I messed up, don't ask). Linux is also rather obtuse for those uninitiated. It's simply not necessary for what I need.

As for Apple? I admire their aesthetics, but I don't view them as some benefactor (even less so now that they've teamed up with the Great Satan, Cingular), just trying to help their fellow man. They are a business and trying to make money. That being said - I've had nothing but amazing customer support from them (in fact, they let me send in a $200 rebate two weeks after it expired because I FORGOT to send it in).

DRM vs. Creative Commons is an interesting debate. DRM to me is largely useless, although I am not convinced it encourages piracy. I'm reminded what Tsutomu Shimomura said in Takedown when he was talking about network security software: "A tool is a tool is a tool." Moral judgments don't really play into it. On the other hand, I find Creative Commons to be an equally double-edged sword. And also my personal experience is that if something is stamped "Creative Commons," it's of very low quality (exceptions of note: Cory Doctorow, NYC2123, and of course Escape Pod and Pseudopod)

The lack of Apple + X functionality in Finder is the reason I haven't offered Jobs my as-yet nonexistant firstborn.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2007, 09:48:03 AM by fiveyearwinter » Logged
Reap3r
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« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2007, 05:43:40 PM »

or (finally) learning about Linux.

[rant] Trust me, DO NOT USE LINUX, unless you want alot of headaches. I'm on one right now(Yes, there are 2 windows computers in my house as well, but this one is in my room. If I wanted a computer in my room, this was my only option until I can buy my own compuer), and unless you already know linux, it's not worth it. I still haven't gotten any videos to work and I can barely do anything with mp3s, and from the horror stories my dad told me, he can get them both to work after many hours of work, and that's if the installation doesn't totally screw up the system. Linux makes me want to jump out off a very tall building(yes, I will have a parachute if I do)[/rant]

Basicly, never say your going to use Linux around me or I will hunt you down and throw a penguin at you.
At home I use Linux all the time... and I come from a Windows-only world.
If you can't get it to work, doesn't mean that no-one can get it to work.

In Ubuntu (and any derivatives of it) getting stuff to work is pretty straightforward, or otherwise there is good documentation on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ that'll help you get it running.

I know that people can get linux working(my dad used to do it all the time) and I would try harder to get mine working better but it's an old piece of crap that's not worth saving.  Smiley  I don't really hate Linux that much(I just couldn't pass up the penguin joke).

So Ubuntu is way better than Fedora Core 5? I'm guessing it is just because it's alot newer of a system. I'm thinking about switching if it is really that much better.
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Thinking? I've never heard of that. Is it some kind of food? Please tell me it tastes better than those sick pop tarts filled with meat. You know, Hot Pockets. What, thinking isn't a food? Well then, what is it? Does it have to be built. I hate building things. JUST TELL ME NOW! O look, a bird.
FNH
Matross
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« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2007, 05:19:57 PM »

Creative Commons isn't always good.  There are contexts in which it isn't practical; business models that couldn't succeed by giving their stuff away.

And DRM isn't "evil" to me.  There are times when it isn't.  I do believe it's being taken too far in some cases,

CC and the associated "gift/donation" culture IS good, love based sharing and rewards.

Your right, I went too far saying that DRM is Evil. 

[Rant]
Vista DRM is evil.  As a Windows user who's going to have Vista either on this machine or the machine that comes next I consider it evil and nasty. The whole machine has been taken over by the over DRM, every connection between every component has to handle the heavy weight encryption!  The Vista specs also say that if the computer even thinks that someone might be monitiring the bus the components involved have to reset!  EVIL!  Heres my example of why thats evil.  I run 3D renders on my computer that can run for days, imagine a slight, minute, power spike, that make the vista-aware hardware think someones monitoring the bus, blam, sub systems reset and I've wasted days.

Now I cant even buy a new base unit for my computer and expect to play Hi Def, I NEED to buy a new screen that includes the new Hi Def encryption!

And why are they doing it?  To please Hollywood.  To the very same Hollywood who can, on a whim, produce DVDs that wont play in my Brand new HI Def DVD player!

Grrr!
[End Rant]

Oh...





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Bdoomed
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« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2007, 11:51:54 PM »

And DRM isn't "evil" to me.  There are times when it isn't.  I do believe it's being taken too far in some cases, and getting in the way of reasonable functionality.  I believe that's going to lead to a consumer backlash that'll be very bad for the businesses that rely on it.  But that's not morally wrong, it's just a bad idea.  If I really thought DRM was "evil," I wouldn't own a DVD player.

I believe the evils of DRM is summarized in an Uncyclopedia article on the Microsoft Zune (which by the way i LOVE)

Quote
Q: Hey hi !. You microsoft guys are swell. Your windows is really really neat. I bought about 4000 songs on your superbly locked down PlayForSure DRM format system. Last week my MP3 PlayForSure MS compatible MS certified Player died on me :`-(... I really really really want your great Zune player now. Can you tell me how to transfer my 4123 songs I bought from your stores and put these on the Zune ?? Thank you .

    A: Hey, guy !. We love you as a customer!. Really, you rock. And we are going to love you even more. The proper process of getting all your legally bought music on your new Zune is 1. Ignore the EULA with that comes with the zune and click accept. 2. Buy all your song again for the same low price. And no thanks dude!. You rock. Love. The Microsoft Zune Team.

As for my OS of choice, im a windows user.  I grew up with windows, i know it best, and it comes easily to me.  then again im something of a techy so it might be that too.  ive used pleanty of macs and i personally cant stand em.  Im happy for the Mac that they've invented the scroll wheel finally... what a revolution!  And theyve also realized that incompatibility with windows programs is a BAD thing and have finally decided to support Word... one small step for mac, one giant step for... i dont know.
I believe macs are GREAT for media, whether its movie editing, sound, pictures, whatever media, macs are the best for that.  But other than that, i find windows much much easier, and windows can do much of what macs can do in the way of media.  But again, im incredibly biased here, having allways used windows.  But that DOESNT mean i care that im biased. Tongue
Thats just my take on OSes
« Last Edit: March 09, 2007, 11:58:05 PM by Bdoomed » Logged

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Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?
Roney
Lochage
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« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2007, 05:53:49 AM »

I bought a new laptop the other week and was expecting to go through all that Linux configuration hassle -- particularly with funky laptop hardware.  But I'm clearly out of touch, as Fedora 6 worked pretty much straight off.  I had to switch on the driver for the widescreen display (it's not considered fully trusted yet, so not enabled by default) and I had to download a driver for wireless networking.  That was it.

I probably spent longer trying to clean the useless preinstalled software from the Windows partition.  (To bring things back to topic, I got the laptop specifically because there are still a few XP machines left on the shelves.  There's always a surge in sales when a new OS comes out, but it's not meant to be from people trying to avoid the new one...)

My attitude to Linux is swinging round from "it's worth it if you're prepared to put the effort in" to "install it, see if it works, don't waste time on it if it doesn't, try again in 12 months' time".  Consumer-ready Linux does genuinely seem to be getting closer.

Best thing about it is MPlayer just coping with every video file format under the sun.
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Planish
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« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2007, 01:43:51 AM »

I'm on my 3rd and a half Mac since 1986. The "half" is because I recently got a third-party upgrade to a 1 GHz G4 processor for my ancient Blue & White G3. Even before the upgrade (from a 300 MHz G3) I was able to run the most recent version of Mac OS. I'd say that my "total cost of ownership" per year is pretty low.

... and have finally decided to support Word... one small step for mac, ...
That would have been in, uh, something like 1985. Maybe even 1984. And it's Micro$oft that did the "supporting" of Word for Mac. It's their product after all.

For the rare occasion that I need to view or edit any of the Office document formats, I use OpenOffice. Totally free X11 application for MacOS X.
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Michael
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« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2007, 07:13:20 AM »

 
Quote
I'm not fooling myself that Apple's a pure and noble company -- they play dirty pool as much as Microsoft does, and sometimes more.  Linux is certainly purer from an ideological perspective.  But I've had fewer frustrations with my Macs than with any other modern OS -- and I feel like as I grew out of wanting to tinker all the time, of inefficiently diving into the innards of a system just for fun, I also grew out of Linux.

I think one of the problems in human nature is that when we switch from one thing to another we become "locked in time" regarding the thing we left behind.  The guy who had a lemon K car in the 80's, buys a Toyota and becomes a Japanese car fan doesn't know that American cars have vastly improved--in his head he still pictures the piece of crap he left behind.  I think it is much the same here.

I keep trying Linux...  I recently installed a new Linux core on an old Dell I have here and it went on as easy as windows with a total graphic user interface, installed all the drivers and sat there humming--and I thought  it was very cool and incredibly improved.  It was going to become my main machine, but then I couldn't find a driver for the WIFI card I had to use in it, and so did not quite become a convert--yet.  But Linux 2007 is vastly better than Linux 2005, Mac 2007 is better than Mac 2001, and so is PC. Personally satisfied with my computer and its functionality, I see no need to change anything for the moment--no Vista "killer ap" that I can see.

 

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Bdoomed
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« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2007, 09:54:09 PM »

Im gonna get vista for college when i go... by that time (bout a year and a half now..?) i hope Vista will have improved (plus, when Halo 2 for PC comes out it'll be vista only and .... i gotta get it!)  As of now i have no trouble with my computer, and im not in a rush at all to leave it behind (need some more harddrive space though)
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Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?
sirana
Lochage
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« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2007, 02:58:21 PM »

I recently installed Ubuntu Linux as a second OS on my computer and I was surprised how easy it was and how smooth everything went.

Internet: no problem.
Printer: no problem.
Playing music, every kind of video, dvds: no problem.
Hooking my (Creative) mp3-player up to the pc: no problem.

The only thing that is not working right now is the 3D-Graphics, but that was to be expected since my 3D-card is barely 2 months old and so there aren't any drivers yet. Not that there is that much need for 3D under Linux ;-)
[Got it working now, my oh my is compiz pretty...]

But apart from that everything worked like a breeze. If I didn't need windows to play games, I wouldn't see any need to keep XP on my machine.
Linux sure has made progress since the last time I tried to install it (my last try was Suse, about 1.5 years ago)

Edit: Got the 3D-Graphics working ;-)

« Last Edit: March 30, 2007, 09:15:13 AM by sirana » Logged
BlairHippo
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« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2007, 02:35:13 PM »

Im gonna get vista for college when i go... by that time (bout a year and a half now..?) i hope Vista will have improved

I dunno, man.  The problem is not that Vista is a hunk-o-junk OS that just needs time to mature, a la Windows 95.  The problem is that it's designed from the ground up to treat you like a criminal.  Only way that's going to go away is with a massive change of heart and redesign from Microsoft -- it's not as if it's a patch or two shy of being an acceptable system.

Avoid.  When it's time for college, either stick with XP or jump ship to Mac or Linux.
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Bdoomed
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« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2007, 03:08:05 PM »

what do you mean by treatin ya as a criminal?  i havent used Vista past going to tiger direct, seeing the interface, and playing one of those slider puzzles. hehe.
could you explain just what the biggest problems are?
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BlairHippo
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« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2007, 02:55:32 PM »

what do you mean by treatin ya as a criminal?  i havent used Vista past going to tiger direct, seeing the interface, and playing one of those slider puzzles. hehe.
could you explain just what the biggest problems are?

DRM -- Digital Rights Management.  If you're doing anything with multimedia -- music files, video files, etc. -- Vista's primary concern is NOT allowing you to do what you want to with those files -- view 'em, edit 'em, rip 'em, whatever.  Vista's primary concern is making sure that you're only viewing files you're supposed to be viewing, and that you're not doing anything evil and piratey like copying or ripping what you're seeing.

For a reaaaaaly big paper on the topic, check this out:

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html

It's a little dense, but it's worth a good skim.  And you have to appreciate a technical write-up that includes nuggets like "[In order to work] Vista's content protection must be able to violate the laws of physics."

More generalized criticism can be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Windows_Vista#_note-10

... but for me, the DRM is the dealbreaker.  Vista spends tremendous effort protecting content from me, the evil scary user.  Screw that; my computer works for me, not vice-versa.
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