Author Topic: EP376: Shutdown  (Read 15890 times)

Dem

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Reply #25 on: January 11, 2013, 05:04:37 PM
at uni they told me that women couldn't relate to sci-fi because sci-fi was always about white dude soldiers in outer space.
Back in the day, everything was about white dudes, unless you read Bunty and then it was about dancing white dudettes. Aliens 2 was the first film I remember seeing where women did a bit more than squeak, 'Oh Malcolm, which way shall we go?!'

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matweller

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Reply #26 on: January 11, 2013, 05:30:13 PM
ADDENDUM TO MY PREVIOUS COMMENT:

I just wen't back and listened to Elites...not the story I was thinking about, but man, one of the greatest stories EP has ever run, in my opinion.



Devoted135

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Reply #27 on: January 11, 2013, 06:29:33 PM
To be fair, he said he wasn't interested in the story, not that he wasn't interested specifically because of the female character.

That's true, but in context it's difficult not to read it that way.

Quote
I know the genre is still unfairly balanced in favor of men, but that may be true yet of all writing, so for it to be a complaint of sci-fi in particular is unfair. But I always get a laugh because -- I can't remember the title, it may have been EP159 Elites, but I'd have to listen again, but -- one of the first EP stories I heard was about a unit of especially brutal female space Marines that to this day makes me think "It's not for their protection, it's for yours" whenever the females-in-combat debate flares up. In fact, I would say the number of stories on EP with a demur or victimized female (excluding the ones where the story is about their triumph over their victimization, because those are positive and equally common in male-centered fiction) character could probably be could probably be counted on one hand. While I get the impression that the EP crew is more culturally sensitive and liberally skewed, I also get the impression that the stories chosen are a pretty good representation of what's out there and there's reason to be hopeful about that.

I remember that story! I also have no idea what episode it was, since my guess (Cinderella Suicide) proved to be incorrect. Also, Elites is a fantastic story. I would second your point that across the board EP does a great job of balancing the stories they run. No complaints here. :)



McDuff

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Reply #28 on: January 12, 2013, 07:03:26 AM
I don't normally comment, but here goes.

This one troubled me. I wanted to like it. There were bits of it I really did like. It felt like a glimpse into a complete world. I was interested in the background, the technologies being used, the bigger wider world outside the window, which the writer had obviously thought hard about.

I liked the setup. A seven-fingered ballet-dancer soldier trained to kill herself at will? Fabulous idea.

I didn't mind, as others seemed to, the time jumping.

What disappointed me was the payoff. All that good world building and character building we'd got at the beginning, and in the end what do we get? A realisation that being a soldier is better than being a dancer because people want you to come back. Those would be the same people who'd sent you out on what pretty much amounted to a suicide mission, so, yeah, not the most obvious conclusion to draw. Perhaps there was supposed to be an element of unreliable narration to it, but it sure seemed as if we were expected to cheer her on as she realised that dancing is selfish and only the army loves you. It felt hollow and fake, the "dancer" thing tacked on like those Christian-bookstore pulp novels about a guy who takes drugs purely so he's able to give them up when he finds Jesus, which clearly written by a guy who's never smoked a cheeky J in his life. She wasn't a dancer because it was important to the story; she was a dancer so she could stop being a dancer. She might as well have been a fishmonger.

Given how strongly the world and the character started, how engaged I was with the first two thirds of the story, it was very disappointing to have it end on such a shallow damp squib.



CryptoMe

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Reply #29 on: January 19, 2013, 05:59:07 AM
I had a problem with the story for some of the reasons already mentioned (and I will now usurp Unblinking's numbered lists role ;)... )
1. The action in audio just didn't work for me, and I missed a lot of details (thanks to the forumites for filling me in).
2. The jumping back and forth tripped me up at the end exactly the way Devoted135 described (I too thought for a moment that the entire thing had just been a training exercise involving only one death).
3. The abandonment of her lifelong goals on a whim for more suicide missions just did not ring true for me either (so with you on that McDuff).

So all round, it wasn't a win for me.

I did like the the set up and 12-minute deaths concept, though.



Gamercow

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Reply #30 on: January 21, 2013, 02:40:15 AM
Those would be the same people who'd sent you out on what pretty much amounted to a suicide mission, so, yeah, not the most obvious conclusion to draw. Perhaps there was supposed to be an element of unreliable narration to it, but it sure seemed as if we were expected to cheer her on as she realised that dancing is selfish and only the army loves you. It felt hollow and fake, the "dancer" thing tacked on like those Christian-bookstore pulp novels about a guy who takes drugs purely so he's able to give them up when he finds Jesus, which clearly written by a guy who's never smoked a cheeky J in his life. She wasn't a dancer because it was important to the story; she was a dancer so she could stop being a dancer. She might as well have been a fishmonger.

Well, her being a dancer was very important to the story if you ask me.  Her being a dancer gave her much better control over her body and mind, and allowed her to get the intel that was so desperately desired.  There was also the matter of her being unaltered with implants.

I really enjoyed this story.  It was well written, had a good main character, and was different enough to keep my interest. 

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jwbjerk

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Reply #31 on: January 21, 2013, 04:27:59 PM
General thoughts, at the start I liked the mystery of an unknown, advanced, inscrutable alien power.  Unfortunately like the movie Prometheus, these advanced aliens seem only capable of brawling-- unlike Prometheus engineers, they don't do it very well.

These aliens had conquered 5 human planets, so it doesn't make a lot of sense for them to be unprepared to deal with humans.  Some sort of hint, guess or explanation why she found it so easy to storm their base, why they used weapons that couldn't penetrate a skinsuit (surely that wasn't the best human armor?), and generally why their huge advantage of knowledge, preparation and numbers were so relatively ineffective.

Her being able to grab the alien weapon was improbable, but them then allowing her to take the slug thrower just after that  when they should be extra alert just struck me as ridiculous.
That bothered me a little bit at first too, but then I remembered that they don't have articulated joints, but rather tentacles. Now, if you think about it, tentacles aren't very well suited for holding on to things that other entities would really rather you didn't hold on to. No tendons to pull bones tight, no interlocking fingers. Just a coil of tentacle sort of holding it in place. A good tug in the direction that is perpendicular to the direction that the tentacle is coiled will release whatever was grasped there.
That explanation occurred to me too, especially as she grabs the box-gun after contemplating her 2.5 fingers (more than the aliens had).

But if we're going to be physically realistic like that, the tentacle is also a super-lousy method of locomotion under earth-like gravity without water for support. Yet they somehow nearly kept up with her in the chase (i think-- that scene confused me).
If that interests you, see here for the suitability of tentacles for walking.
I'm not saying every sci-fi story needs to be that bio-mechanically realistic, just if you go there (which i think the story does), you should be more consistent about it.



Fenrix

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Reply #32 on: January 21, 2013, 09:37:12 PM

These aliens had conquered 5 human planets, so it doesn't make a lot of sense for them to be unprepared to deal with humans.  Some sort of hint, guess or explanation why she found it so easy to storm their base, why they used weapons that couldn't penetrate a skinsuit (surely that wasn't the best human armor?), and generally why their huge advantage of knowledge, preparation and numbers were so relatively ineffective.


I would guess that their defenses have them set up such that nothing should be able to make it in. You don't have to fortify a place and heavily arm the occupants if the defenses are effective. Hubris or efficiency?

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childoftyranny

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Reply #33 on: April 11, 2013, 11:16:37 PM
What surprises me most is that more people didn't have difficulty with the ending of this, her dropping her lifelong dream seemed troubling to me, and in some ways the pro private military aspect in her coming to appreciate the sort of camaraderie that apparently this one mission developed. As I've been catching up to these I just realized that instead of three more militant-scifi stories there were three with Oubliette, which is sort unusual for EscapePod in my experience. Especially with multiple stories built on the aliens in the way/taking away our stuff idea, curious!

I found the world-building here pretty interesting, and I'm still really curious as to what the aliens are doing, it sounds like they are terraforming a world in ways that aren't biological so why bother taking someone else's colony?

I did find the ending somewhat too easy, after the work of getting in, that she could just grab the weapon, I understand the idea of a tentacle not being a great gripping too, but since these were metallic bugs, I'd think that ribbed tentacles, so they could be extended and such could grip something at least stronger than even most trained military members could easily extricate something from.

Overall I enjoyed this story, and right as I was driving home I got to pondering that perhaps her change of attitude could be from the brain damage that pretty much has to occur from death and resurrection every 12 minutes...or what it for 12 minutes, the length of the scan escapes me right now.



luka datas

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Reply #34 on: May 05, 2013, 02:21:29 AM

So first you implicitly criticize women for not being able to relate to white dudes (incorrect, by the way), and then you turn around and say you give this story a fail simply because you couldn't relate to the female of unspecified ethnicity?? Uncool, dude.



cool is my middle name.
Firstly, I always criticise women because they appreciate the input and secondly, If can't relate to a female of unspecified ethnicity it is only because she prefers it that way.

I like action stories that take place in space where the characters aren't veiled representations of americas obsession with racial inequality or so forth. I read and listen to sci fi as an escape from all that bungdung.
 




















Scattercat

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Reply #35 on: May 05, 2013, 05:51:38 AM
I know a lot of people who would like to have the ability to just ignore inequality.  However, because they are the targets of it, this is not possible.  Your freedom to dismiss their experiences as "bungdung" is, in itself, a form of the privilege you don't want to talk about.

If the mere existence of an explicitly nonwhite and nonmale character is sufficient to politicize a story in your mind, then I feel you should stop and think very hard about why that bothers you.



Bdoomed

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Reply #36 on: May 05, 2013, 07:44:29 AM
^What he said.  Literature is THE place to put all of that, not the place to shun and shy away from it.

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


luka datas

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Reply #37 on: May 06, 2013, 01:19:04 AM
Great a debate.

Only thing I can say is that when I speak for myself that is who I am speaking for.

When I read that is who I am reading for.

I don't read to participate in political discussions because if I wanted to do that I would just participate in political discussions.

I don't like stories where characters are treated unfairly when their transgressions are so minor that they really don't deserve the treatment.

I don't care if the characters are white black female gay or an anthropomorphised animal as long as they are living in the future where this is no longer a primary consideration.

I like adventure stories where the heroes are involved in something that I can't read in the newsaper every day and have my stomach turned by.

AND if you attend any university you will have a hard time finding sci-fi classified as literature.

I like sci-fi and I don't have a problem with that... since a lot of so-called literature is what I would call 'well written but boring.'

your turn.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2013, 01:33:41 AM by luka datas »



Scattercat

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Reply #38 on: May 06, 2013, 03:57:30 AM
No one is criticizing your story preferences.  You can like whatever you like.  But when you criticize a story for being too political when all it did was make the main character female and non-Caucasian in an otherwise bog-standard action plotline (with an admittedly unusual twist to the type of action involved), then you're saying a lot more than just what kind of story you like.  Your original comment presented your point of view in opposition to the (dismissively mentioned) complaints of women that it was hard to relate to SF when it was wall-to-wall white males, suggesting that any use of non-white non-male POV was inherently a loss to white males and a gain to The Other.  You followed this up by referencing racial inequality as "bungdung" that others are "obsessed" with, which in turn implies that racial inequality is not a serious consideration and does not merit a place in the themes of serious literature.  Both of these are deeply problematic assertions, wholly steeped in (likely unrecognized) privilege; that is, as I said, your ability to ignore such facets of life is inherent in your position as a white male who doesn't have to worry about race or gender in your every professional or public interaction.  But just because it's not relevant to you doesn't make it a theme unworthy of exploration (even in the flimsy manner here in this story), and part of the benefit of literature as a medium is that it enables one to empathize and understand those who are not precisely like oneself.

Further, I would argue that, whether one enjoys thought-provoking literature or not, suggesting that science fiction, as a genre, ignore it entirely by virtue of saying that none of the serious problems of today will be a problem In The Future is at best a misguided piece of advice.  Again, you can feel free to dislike weighty literature for your personal pleasure-reading, but so long as science fiction remains solely about escapism and male power fantasies, it will struggle to maintain any sort of standing as a respectable genre. 

I would go on to suggest that learning to engage with deeper themes through the medium of fiction is a useful skill, and in many ways is the primary point of the very act of storytelling, but one cannot criticize others merely for personal preferences. 

I will say that this story is hardly obsessed with race nor even very much about race at all; the main characters are multi-ethnic and include a solid mix of male and female, and neither race nor gender is particularly relevant to the story's resolution.  (The main character is a dancer, and that skill is what gives her the edge, but dancing is hardly a female-only profession; she could as well have been a he and the story largely unchanged.)  Complaining about ethnic/gender concerns in this context makes your tone sound trigger-happy; you appear, by complaining about such a mild intrusion into White/Male Space, to be actively looking for cause to take offense or dismiss.  Again, the mere existence of protagonists who aren't white, male, and straight is not "politics."  As someone said on the occasion of Julia Pierson as the "first female head of the Secret Service": the battle will be closer to over when we can stop remarking on the event occurring.  Once it's no longer "weird" for women to head the secret service - or for non-Caucasian women to be space marines in SF stories - that is when we will be close to equality.



luka datas

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Reply #39 on: May 06, 2013, 05:41:42 AM
Rebuttal

I surrender to you winning argument

only. Is it really important that everyone feel the same way about everything. I know some pretty free thinking and closed minded pro and anti racist/ anti-gay, pro gay marriage/ religious and anti religion type people (not all of which are white or male) and I don't have any expectation that I could convince them to feel the same way about everything that I do. (Which is uninterested, completely)

So I don't bother.

They have their views and sometimes those views are actually quite amusing...  possibly more so since they are never actually in conflict with my own and they don't actively persecute or help anyone. Just mouth off about whatever is going.

A minority in a western country probably shouldn't be confused with the majority in a third world country, however.

These groups are generally the cream of the crop otherwise they probably wouldn't have made it here. It's not that easy for me to feel sorry for them as it is for certain people but thats probably because I see them for what they are. It is just as easy for a native of an area to fail in their chosen field as it is for a non native.

Not that people aren't products of their environments as well.. but if you really want to feel sorry for a minority then caucasian people need to be added to your list since both asian and african people outnumber caucasions by a vast margin internationally.

I think also that you are reading more into my comments than are actually in them concerrning the femaleness of the protagonist in the story that we are discussing. I'm not sure how to argue your points since to do so would suggest that I disagree with you and that I had in  some way been arguing counter to them in the first place.

I didn't like the story and you did. It isn't the end of the world.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 04:00:45 AM by luka datas »



hardware

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Reply #40 on: June 03, 2013, 04:37:38 PM
This was pretty good, as a pure action set-piece it worked pretty well, in a Crank meets Predators with a little bit of Temple Run kind of way. I can agree that escape came a bit easy and those aliens didn't seem like the greatest of warriors at the end of the day, but that is just par for the course for this kind of story. I swallowed the adrenalin pill, now I won't try to analyze it.