Author Topic: EP390: Cerbo un Vitra ujo  (Read 55269 times)

benjaminjb

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Reply #25 on: April 07, 2013, 02:55:22 PM
Much the same principle but in a novel and without, I think, the sexual violence, or at least I don't recall any. For me, this is a speculative horror based on existing horrors, many of which are sub cultural, half-known, and occasionally sanctioned. [...] We already buy and sell organs, we are already seekers after cosmetic perfection, and we have just begun acknowledging the prevalence of sexual violence in conflicts of many kinds.

I think Dem makes an excellent point here: I think it would be relatively easy for us to imagine this story without the sexual violence. I mean, "lovelorn girl tracks down body harvested boy in clutches of evil doctor" is enough of a plot and gets at many of the themes (love, inequality) we've identified. So why put in sexual violence? Well, it helps ID the doctor as Evil; and maybe it's fun to be transgressive and shock the squares/bourgeoisie/norms.

But maybe the sexual violence isn't an addendum, but part of the main idea of the piece. As Dem notes, sexual violence plays a role in many kinds of conflicts, including rare resource management, like contemporary rare earth mining in the Congo or (in this story) future organ harvesting. Personally, I wish we knew more in this story about the extent of body harvesting and the extent of sexual violence. Is it just that Doc is Evil or is there some connection between taking people's bodies for organs or for orgasms. (Note: I couldn't resist the parallelism organ/orgasm, but it's always useful to point out that we're talking less about sex and more about power when we talk about rape.)

This is speculation on my part, but did anyone else notice that Kaj and Grete don't seem to have dads? Now, I'm not saying that, in this story, men from the rich space station go and rape women of the poorer space station in order to produce useful organs. (Although, if Doc really wants to match skin tone, what better way than by passing on his own genes?) Is that horrible? Yes--but it's also something we've already seen historically with American slave plantations. (Note: This was not the case for all slave owners, some of whom seemed to show affection for their slave children, c.f. James Henry Hammonds's diary. But yeah, we've also got lots of proof of white people selling their black kids into the slave market; or of white people committing incest on their black daughters. Yay, the 19th century--when railroads were legal persons and black people weren't.)



InfiniteMonkey

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Reply #26 on: April 07, 2013, 03:37:53 PM
So why put in sexual violence?

Because Dr. Evil is raping Grete with Kaj's parts. That's part of the horror. Hell, that's MOST of the horror. Listen carefully to the pronouns used in that scene.



MCWagner

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Reply #27 on: April 07, 2013, 05:32:58 PM
I've gone back and forth for several days on whether I should comment on this story.  I try to be helpful and offer constructive criticism when I don't like a particular story, but in this case my reaction to the story was so very negative on every level that I'm at a loss as how to proceed without simply sour lambasting.  Having followed up by looking at the author's blog where she expounds upon the Snow Queen connection, I do appreciate the apparent seed of the story in which a young girl attempts to rescue her magically-dispersed lover.  However, that is about the only part I do appreciate.

My largest problem with the story lies at its structural and thematic center.  This story is victimization porn.  Figuratively as well as literally.  Our main character begins the story as a victim; she is to be left behind by her lover as he "advances."  She is further made a victim by his apparent neglect to correspond.  In both cases, she is victimized passively.  When she hits a stall in the subsequent investigation, she conciously decides to become a victim again by offering herself to the man she suspects killed her lover, first as an apparently willing seductee, then explicitly sexually.  The narrative places us explicitly in her head during and after she's violated with extensive emotional detail so as to drive her victimhood home.  When she makes the turning-point discovery that lies at the heart of the story, her active, concious decision is to be completely passive, and again be sexually victimized as a distraction so she can take action.  And how does the story conclude?  We're told that she will be horrifically victimized with pornographically tortuous medical procedures over an enormously long time until she is dead.  Weirdly, all of the rest of the victims in the story are entirely victimized offscreen.  All the victimization in the story is horrifically entered into willingly, leading to some puzzled questions about how this "design house" exactly works.  It doesn't matter how it works!  It only matters that it acts upon victims.

This 'character' is not a character.  She is a victim, and nothing else.  This is a story arc in which our clever, intelligent female character progresses from being passively, emotionally victimized to actively causing herself to be sexually and then surgically victimized.  I give the reader credit for recognizing this at the core of the tale and reading it with that particular quavering note from the first line.  The overall effect and impression of the story I can only sum up with a rather nasty colloquialism:  this is a 30 minute rape-shower-cry scene.

(I wondered initally at the odd phrasing in the opening warning; telling us to expect a scene of "forced sexual intercourse."  I suspect it was to forestall the explicitly nasty discussion attached to the word rape:  "can you rape the willing?"  I've no straightforward opinion, nor interest in discussing that nasty topic here.)

That was my central difficulty with the story, but I had lesser problems as well.  The entire tale for me was given away in the first line.  Such an absurly specific metaphore  telegraphed the central twist immediately.  It was so obviously given away that I kept expecting some twist to controvert expectations and was sadly disappointed.  Mechanical problems with the story's setting got in the way of the obviously intended commentary on class:  is this harvesting legal?  If yes, why did the woman with the eyes react badly?  Why was it not widely known?  Why bother with the deception after the fact?  Why weren't the retinal and fingerprint records re-certified (giving away what had happened) to recognize the new owners, especially since they likely use them for identification? If no, why not contact authorities?  Why was the doctor so casual in talking about it, and so readily took her to see him?  (Are there no "stings" in the future?)  Where did the rest of his family go?  Did they sell just him (the pretty one), all of their children, or were they all victims taken in by a scam and all diced up somewhere?  If there are artifical (cosmetic) options, why do people want the real ones?  If it's a status thing, that needs to be said.  If it's a practical thing or an expense thing, that needs to be said.  This is important because it's directly interfering with the interpretation of the story's thematic elements.  Is this a story about the rich preying on the poor out of simple evilness?  A story of limited resources (working body parts) going to the undeserving?  About a society that can't be bothered to care about the fate of the poor?  About a society where the poor are so mercenary that they sell their own family members to uncaring 'knackers' to advance?   We don't get any details that enable us to sort these themes out, because the story simply doesn't care:  just watch the victim get victimized.

To be clear, I am not dissecting this story because of the sexual violence elements.  I am not easily "squicked' and reacted much more strongly to the apparent thematic cores in this story than to any aspect of the sex.  Sex, even sexual violence, being a part of the human experience today (and projected future) certainly has a place in storytelling.  I object not to the element, but the way in which it is employed.

In conclusion, I found the story grossly self-indulgent and voyeuristic.  It was well-presented with excellent audio and I appreciated the warning on the front end.  Nor do I condemn EP for running it:  I've listened for years and never expected to like everything.  This particular story, however, had very large problems.



Kaa

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Reply #28 on: April 07, 2013, 06:01:47 PM
Why weren't the retinal and fingerprint records re-certified (giving away what had happened) to recognize the new owners, especially since they likely use them for identification?

Consider how Grete conducted her search. She did not access Kaj's public records and then say, "show me where he is." She hacked the system and searched public records with a set of {retinal | finger}prints and said, "show me where these have been used." Big difference. The new owners may very well have had the scans re-ID'd to reflect their new owners, but she subverted the system.

I thought that was the whole point of the author bringing hacking into it very early.

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Lisa3737

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Reply #29 on: April 07, 2013, 10:59:21 PM
Very disturbing story.



TheArchivist

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Reply #30 on: April 08, 2013, 10:22:51 AM
Oh dear. I'm trying not to be "confrontational", really I am, but this story sucked so bad I didn't even stick with it to the end.

That girl was unbelievably stupid. None of the other characters were much brighter. I saw no hint of the promised "awesome", and reading some of the other comments it looks like it didn't show up after I gave up on it. And while I didn't want to be the first to say it, I agree with MCWagner's comment about "victimisation porn".

Sadly, unlike MCW, I didn't even find the reading style ("that particular quavering note") to be any good, just annoying.



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Reply #31 on: April 08, 2013, 11:32:53 AM
Holy crap that was dark.
Even though Alastaire hosts some of the episodes, there is no excuse for this type of story on EP.
I'm with Kaa, the horror of this story is the fact that a society exists where parents would knowingly sell their children for spare parts. Hell, not even spare parts. Upgrade parts. This isn't someone needing new body parts due to illness or bad genetics, this is pure evil. "I want new hands, so I'll take them off of some kid".
Pass that bottle of brain bleach, thank you.

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chemistryguy

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Reply #32 on: April 08, 2013, 06:45:40 PM
Gosh there's a lot of disdain for this particular story.  I didn't think this one crossed into any theoretical forbidden zone, nor did I think the writing was so bad that the plot was just window dressing for victimization porn.

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Even though Alastaire hosts some of the episodes, there is no excuse for this type of story on EP

Ouch!  Don't blame the host if you don't like where each story is placed.  There is no denying this contains science fiction.  If ever there is another Union Dues episode here, you won't here me complaining about genre.


Quote
That girl was unbelievably stupid

Because when it comes to love, young love at that, we were all so logical  :P

I haven't given it another listen, but I'm inclined to do so.


JDoug

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Reply #33 on: April 08, 2013, 07:47:46 PM

I'm not sure I enjoyed this story. But I don't regret listening to it either. So I'm going to take Matweller's advice and listen to it again in a couple of weeks.


So I actually managed to re-listen to the story today, whilst running errands. And  I didn't enjoy it. The beginning of the story was incredibly frustrating. I was prying for details about Kaj and they just weren't there.  I knew what was going to happen to him, but the story never tugged at my heart strings. How long had he and Grete been together for? What was there relationship like? I mean, the story implies they would have had a hell of a time at it. Kaj from an unfashionably large family, which Grete's mother didn't approve off. What with the desire for secrecy and all, it's unlikely Kaj''s mother would take a shine to Grete either - it just makes the prospect of selling your son all the more risky. And they couldn't have even met at school, given Kaj was ineligible to go. Obviously it's impossible for an author to provide all the background in a 30 minute story, but God damn it! This is interesting stuff! Re-listening, I was desperately searching for more clues and just couldn't find any.

It got worse from there. I disagree with the idea of Grete simply been a victim - she's aware of the risks of going off-station, but chooses to do so anyway out of love for Kaj. Leaving the station (rather than trying to keep on tracking him remotely) is no doubt the first of many stupid decisions, but seemed completely believable to me, given the context of young love. But the problem was that I knew what was going to happen. And I wasn't sad for Grete. I literally felt sick in my stomach. It wasn't horror, I didn't feel scared. Dr Fairview didn't seem that scary. Evil yes, but an evil that is regrettably rather explicable and rather commonplace. A 'rich bastard' essentially.

What worries me is I'm not sure why I didn't feel sad for Grete. If her and Kaj had ended up committing suicide together, alla Romeo and Juliet, I would have. If Grete had managed to sneak in, kill kaj and then escape, only to be captured, I would have been heartbroken. But the rape and sexual violence changed the story. I knew it was coming, in all it's explicit, gut-churning detail and that just took over my thought process. It's the first podcast (and I listen to psuedopod) that I've seriously considered stopping halfway through. I just didn't want to listen to Grete go through it all again.

What worries me is what this says about me. As mentioned previously, Kaj dying doesn't bother me. Grete dying on a surgical table, cut up for parts, doesn't bother me. It's the sexual violence that does it for me, the rape. I don't know why I can cope with a live human being being cut to help some selfish rich bloke look ever so slightly better, but not cope with Grete's defilement. It doesn't seem logical, but there it is. And yes, I do realise it served a purpose of contrast, what with Kaj's bodyparts involved. Second time around, that just wasn't enough of a pay off.

I feel at this point I should say that I like having stories like this on escapepod. One of the first escapepod stories I listened to was 'The Paper Menagerie', which was hardly conventional sci-fi. It hooked me and I've been a regular listener since. Even if I didn't enjoy this story, I've spent a lot of time thinking about it. I've tried to work out what makes a good tragedy story, and why this one in the end wasn't. And that (hopefully) will make me a better writer.
 
So because I don't say it enough, thank you escape pod!



Scumpup

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Reply #34 on: April 09, 2013, 12:12:40 AM
That was a really ugly story.  I can accept ugliness as a means to make a point.  I already knew all the points this story might have made, though.  Haves can exploit have-nots in ever more terrible ways as tech advances?  Check.  Young lovers can do stupid things?  Check.  Poor people can be pushed into awful acts by their poverty?  Check.  Rapists exist and they are evil?  Check.  So, listening to it left me in the detestable position of "watching" a rape for nothing more than entertainment.  I like myself less for having listened through to the end.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 03:58:29 PM by Scumpup »



TheArchivist

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Reply #35 on: April 09, 2013, 08:14:27 AM
Quote
That girl was unbelievably stupid

Because when it comes to love, young love at that, we were all so logical  :P

Oh I don't deny that love makes us blind, but pay attention to the word "unbelievably". This girl wasn't just lovelorn and foolish.

Actually, re-reading some other comments I see people have said this was a horror story. In the classic low-budget horror genre it is conventional for the young couple (who are probably having sex too liberal-minded for the 1950s) to behave in unbelievably stupid ways, like walking straight into the blatantly obviously haunted mansion with the immensely creepy owner and staying the night. The idea is not to make you believe, but to make you nauseous with all the gore. Such films don't work at all for me, so I don't suppose I should be surprised that this story didn't either.



Max e^{i pi}

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Reply #36 on: April 09, 2013, 09:21:46 AM
Quote
Even though Alastaire hosts some of the episodes, there is no excuse for this type of story on EP

Ouch!  Don't blame the host if you don't like where each story is placed.  There is no denying this contains science fiction.  If ever there is another Union Dues episode here, you won't here hear me complaining about genre.

I'm not blaming the host at all. In fact, this week's podcast was hosted by Norm, not Alasdair. I was just making a slightly humorous and mostly sarcastic remark about how Pseudopod's tentacles are slowly strangling EP and converting it to one of its own.
I'm sorry that you didn't understand my comment the way it was meant.

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chemistryguy

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Reply #37 on: April 09, 2013, 11:10:15 AM
Quote
That girl was unbelievably stupid

Because when it comes to love, young love at that, we were all so logical  :P

Oh I don't deny that love makes us blind, but pay attention to the word "unbelievably". This girl wasn't just lovelorn and foolish.

Actually, re-reading some other comments I see people have said this was a horror story. In the classic low-budget horror genre it is conventional for the young couple (who are probably having sex too liberal-minded for the 1950s) to behave in unbelievably stupid ways, like walking straight into the blatantly obviously haunted mansion with the immensely creepy owner and staying the night. The idea is not to make you believe, but to make you nauseous with all the gore. Such films don't work at all for me, so I don't suppose I should be surprised that this story didn't either.

I see what you're saying, but I wasn't picking up that kind of vibe with this story.  I haven't seen many of films you're talking about, but like yourself I have no desire to do so.

There isn't enough of a back story explaining their relationship, but when Grete assumes she's being ignored by Kaj and decides to investigate, I can buy it.  She then realizes that his eyes have already been harvested she makes it her mission to see if he's ok.  Not the smartest course of action, but unbelievable?  When she finds herself in a position to get some information from the good doctor himself, she does what she thinks is necessary to get that information.  Stupid?  Extremely so.  But she is in no right frame of mind after seeing all she has, including the juxtaposition of Kaj's familiar hands on the surgeon's body.

People do unimaginably stupid things on a daily basis.  Never, ever underestimate humanity's capacity for self-delusion and denial.  I can find holes in the technology, but I have no doubts that a version of this story has already played itself out again and again and again.

Quote
I was just making a slightly humorous and mostly sarcastic remark about how Pseudopod's tentacles are slowly strangling EP and converting it to one of its own.

Putting it this way give me a chuckle.


Peevester

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Reply #38 on: April 09, 2013, 12:27:59 PM
I'll just leave this here:

“No one knows where you are, do they, kitten?”

Grete shuddered, and then wrinkled up her nose. "Do I smell a panda farting?"



Just Jeff

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Reply #39 on: April 09, 2013, 03:44:38 PM
Grete shuddered, and then wrinkled up her nose. "Do I smell a panda farting?"

Wouldn't save the story, but it certainly lightens up the discussion thread.  :D



Frungi

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Reply #40 on: April 09, 2013, 04:23:12 PM
I'll just leave this here:

“No one knows where you are, do they, kitten?”

Grete shuddered, and then wrinkled up her nose. "Do I smell a panda farting?"

Now I want an Escape Pod crossover extravaganza. I can’t see how it could be done with really any degree of seriousness or plausibility, but I don’t care.



JauntyAngle

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Reply #41 on: April 09, 2013, 05:37:55 PM
That was one of the most sickening stories I have ever listened to. It is a none-too-implausible extension of the current state of the world. For example, in China, where there is vast poverty and inequality and the law does little to constrain the actions of the powerful, organs are harvested from executed prisoners and used by the rich. They even harvested organs from living members of the banned Falun Gong sect. If that can happen with a liver, why not a hand?

The bit about tracking the retinal scans and finding the other person with the kid's eyes was brilliantly done.

I thought the narration was over-enunciated, as if the narrator was trying to pronounce every letter in every word.

I wouldn't say I enjoyed the story, because it made me kind of depressed, but it was well written.



chemistryguy

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Reply #42 on: April 09, 2013, 05:40:01 PM
I'll just leave this here:

“No one knows where you are, do they, kitten?”

Grete shuddered, and then wrinkled up her nose. "Do I smell a panda farting?"

Now I want an Escape Pod crossover extravaganza. I can’t see how it could be done with really any degree of seriousness or plausibility, but I don’t care.

Not serious at all, but very plausible.  Just as DC has a weekly twabble, we could do a 100 character crossover challenge.  Any of the podcasts could intrude into another and potentially solve (or cause) problems.

Additional non-existent bonuses rewarded to those who could name both podcasts.

This one is over the limit by 26 letters, but it might be possible to trim it down to size.


Famous Erik

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Reply #43 on: April 09, 2013, 10:12:30 PM

What started out with some interesting intrigue( the investigation, the other missing kids and whether or not the boyfriend suspected something was amiss and thus left the girl with his bio-data) fell apart.
I have no sympathy for anything that happens to Grete after she finds his hands at the bar. She turns from hero to victim as she just passively moves through the rest of the story.
And even if she had been smart for the rest of the story(eg. leaving a message for someone about the 'doc'), it just means the doc was acting suprisingly stupid.




Frungi

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Reply #44 on: April 09, 2013, 10:43:49 PM
Now I want an Escape Pod crossover extravaganza. I can’t see how it could be done with really any degree of seriousness or plausibility, but I don’t care.

Not serious at all, but very plausible.  Just as DC has a weekly twabble, we could do a 100 character crossover challenge.

I actually meant a full-length short story (possibly amalgamating a bunch of previous stories), but this is a great idea too.



Brynn

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Reply #45 on: April 10, 2013, 12:01:58 AM
I am okay with dark stories. I do feel, however, that this one had some issues. Which is unfortunate, because the emotional quandary of someone possessing your loved one's body parts is really neat.

My first concern is how the main character was weak and not at all empowered, and it made me not care what happened to her. I might have accepted the story if it hasn't ended with Grete's implied death--if she had at least tried to fight the doctor in the end, instead of just meekly accepted what had been done to her. Had she fought, I could have cheered for her. Unfortunately, she was flat throughout the story and her personality didnt have enough texture for me to feel she was anything but a vehicle to deliver the final scene.

People often say to stay away from using rape as a tool to victimize female characters in fiction. This story made me understand why they say that, because the conflict of the story could have been presented without rape and to me it came across as cheap shock value. Very unfortunate for such a cool premise.



Mack46

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Reply #46 on: April 10, 2013, 01:41:10 AM
The premise of the story was intriguing but in execution I disliked it intensely. The moment Grete tracked the eyes to a neighboring station I knew how it was going to play out. Frankly Grete is so dumb I couldn't work up any sympathy for her. Maybe we are supposed to think of a Romeo and Juliet pure love  but I would rather see it played out as a revenge story. Grete is shown as a very resourceful young woman but the "I'm going to follow Kaj's body parts around the solar system because he might be alive" is irritating. "I'm going to get revenge on the people responsible starting with his mom" would have appealed to me more. I guess the "no one knows you are here, kitten" line at the end is supposed to be chilling but why would she have any trust in the doc after the bar and apartment. Bah! let her parts go to someone more deserving.



DruidPrince

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Reply #47 on: April 10, 2013, 02:18:32 AM
Sweet mother of lizards. Sweet fuck. Sweet fucking lizard. The sex was the least disturbing part. I'm going to take a shower. In bleach. Hot bleach.

If this becomes the future, I'm siding with the aliens. It's time to start again.

I COULDN'T HOPE TO SAY IT ANY BETTER THAN ELECTRIC PALADIN! Now......Where is that bleach?

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Devoted135

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Reply #48 on: April 10, 2013, 01:01:50 PM
Now I want an Escape Pod crossover extravaganza. I can’t see how it could be done with really any degree of seriousness or plausibility, but I don’t care.

Not serious at all, but very plausible.  Just as DC has a weekly twabble, we could do a 100 character crossover challenge.

I actually meant a full-length short story (possibly amalgamating a bunch of previous stories), but this is a great idea too.

Someone actually did this very early on, and included all of the EP stories that had run up until that point. I forget, it was somewhere in the vicinity of the very first 20-40 stories, and Steve actually read it at the end of an episode. It was fantastic! I have no hope of finding it, but maybe someone else remembers better where it was?



Devoted135

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Reply #49 on: April 10, 2013, 01:13:00 PM
Okay, to the actual story... Unfortunately, I listened to this one back to back with PC's Sundae. That was a rough morning.

One of my problems with this story was that I somehow missed all of the clues that were apparently there to let me know Grete's age and her sexual relationship with Kaj. Having missed them, and hearing that he was being sent to school, I decided that they were about 14 and were very close friends - maybe even best friends. Wow, was I wrong! The hacking and the tracking him down made sense until she had confirmation that the lady had his eyes, and then I completely lost any ability to connect with Grete's motivations.

It's so painful to watch a character decide to be repeatedly raped just because her *friend* might still be alive! I was 100% convinced that Kaj was dead (after all, he doesn't have key organs or extremities any more) so I couldn't figure out why she didn't run home and at least save herself. Of course, my assumption that he was dead turned out to be wrong, but that didn't help on first listen through. I can see that many of my issues were due to false assumptions that I made while listening, but I feel like at least part of that is the story's fault (after all, I'm not usually that far off). And I'm not even going to get in to the buy-in and rape-card and other issues, because that's been thoroughly covered.

Anyway, I think that Mat is probably right and this story should be taken as a tragedy. However, I'm not really willing to give it another 30-40 minutes of my time in order to read it right now. :-\ Also, THANK YOU to Norm for that strong warning at the front of the episode. Seriously, I appreciate it.