Author Topic: EP101: The 43 Antarean Dynasties  (Read 62902 times)

Biscuit

  • Peltast
  • ***
  • Posts: 113
Reply #25 on: April 17, 2007, 01:58:06 AM
I think by the time we roll up on the Antarean homeworld, we might just be far removed from the flash-bulb, flower-print shirt tourism that feeds billions of evil American dollars into the global economy.

Actually, this is exactly what I thought the Antareans HAD evolved from. I thought the Antareans were definitely on the road to enlightenment and scholarship, and because they were so "meek" they got their asses kicked.

Therefore, yes, I go with the Aesop's Fable idea: Be Enlightened, but not to the point that you forget others may still be on the evolution ladder.


Thaurismunths

  • High Priest of TCoRN
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1421
  • Praise N-sh, for it is right and good!
Reply #26 on: April 17, 2007, 11:46:48 AM
Ultimately, my main problem with this tale is logic.  Go forward three hundred years from the height of Expansionism, and we Terrans have already advanced far beyond slavery (at least in our most-free societies).  Yes, we haven't yet fully realized the whole "Good will to men" mantra, but for a Social Darwinist like myself, I see it as inevitability.  I think by the time we roll up on the Antarean homeworld, we might just be far removed from the flash-bulb, flower-print shirt tourism that feeds billions of evil American dollars into the global economy.

A fine point.
I guess I figured a human is a human, wherever he goes. But that's not giving us much credit as a species.

How do you fight a bully that can un-make history?


Monty Grue

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Reply #27 on: April 17, 2007, 10:23:28 PM
The degree of negativity towards the story is a bit puzzling.  There should be more stories, SF or other wise, of internal conflict, even to the point of completely eschewing physical action like this one.  There is a resolution, though narrators may not say so explicitly, the Antareans are doomed to fade away like the lost diamond.  Like it or not, that is a kind of resolution for a story, one that ends not with a bang but a whimper.

Overall, a good story.  Not the best Resnick story I've heard or read, but better than others.



Thaurismunths

  • High Priest of TCoRN
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1421
  • Praise N-sh, for it is right and good!
Reply #28 on: April 18, 2007, 10:58:47 AM
There is a resolution, though narrators may not say so explicitly, the Antareans are doomed to fade away like the lost diamond.

Aah!
That's why he mentioned the diamond. All the other historic bits were very obviously, but I didn't catch the significance of that one part. Thanks!

edit: (the diamond getting lost in the sand storm, I mean)
« Last Edit: April 19, 2007, 11:04:27 AM by Thaurismunths »

How do you fight a bully that can un-make history?


mike-resnick

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 41
Reply #29 on: April 18, 2007, 09:31:00 PM
     Since there seems to be considerable discussion about the story, perhaps the author can clear up a few points.
     My wife, my agent and I were in Cairo in 1989, and had a guide named Iman. He was a very pleasant and highly intelligent fellow, who told me that he had previously taught at the university, but he had a family to feed and found that he could make more money from tourists' tips. He explained that you couldn't even apply for a job as a guide until you had the equivalent of a Masters Degree in Egyptian History and spoke at least 4 languages fluently   -- which meant that he was far better-educated than 99% of the people he guided.
     So here was this man, whose race had built pyramids and temples on an unbelievably vast scale when our ancestors were living in mud huts, showing off the lost glories of his people to the newest set of conquerors. For tips. And I remember that at one point he told us how pleased he was to have attentive listeners, because his previous group got annoyed with him for interrupting their discussion of the point spread in the upcoming Steelers-Rams game.
     I took some notes, thought about it for eight years – some stories take longer to coalesce than others – and wrote "The 43 Antarean Dynasties".             
     Did it have to have science fictional elements it in? No. I doubt that more than 5 stories in my entire output have -required- science fictional elements, and yet according to Locus I am the most-awarded short fiction author, living or dead, in science fiction history -- which implies to me that while not necessary to the stories I wish to tell, science fiction adds insights and resonances beyond those which could exist in a mainstream story and clearly enhances the stories I choose to tell.
    At any rate, "The 43 Antarean Dynasties" won the Hugo and the Ignotus (Spain's Hugo), was resold 5 times in the States as well as to 8 other countries, and was optioned to Hollywood, so -someone- must have felt the resolution was satisfactory.
    (Seriously, if there was a better resolution, the average Egyptian would make more than $61.00 a month, and Ph.D.'s wouldn't quit teaching college because tourists' tips paid better.)
     Finally, if there's a surprise ending, I didn't write it. I consider them cheap shots. My endings are inherent in my beginnings. Otherwise, to my way of thinking, the story wouldn't be worth telling. (That doesn't mean the reader will always see the ending coming, but once it's there he can go back over the story and realize that of course that was the only possible ending.)
     Okay, end of history, end of lecture.

-- Mike Resnick



Swamp

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 2230
    • Journey Into... podcast
Reply #30 on: April 19, 2007, 09:27:40 PM
First of all, I liked this story.  As I was listening to it, I decided that I am indeed a Mike Resnick fan.  I like the emotional connections he brings out in his characters.  They all seem like real, genuine, emotional beings--at least the main characters. 

Were the tourists in this story sort of one-dimentional stereotypes?  Yeah, they were, but the story wasn't about them; they were part of the backdrop.  The story was about the guide and his internal conflict, stradling the line between humility and humiliation.

Was the message a little heavy-handed and guilt-inducing?  Maybe, but I think the richness of the guide character (and his people's history) made up for that.

I just don't like it when people say "I will only like a story if it has this." or "To be an SF story worth reading, it has to have these elements."  I think that is quite a limited view.  One the other hand, everyone has the right to their opinion, and I am happy to read them here in the forums. 

I do enjoy the honesty of EP listeners, though.  It doesn't matter if the author is considered a master in the field and a forefather of science fiction (Asmiov), or if Locus claims them to be "the most-awarded short fiction author, living or dead, in science fiction history".  EP listeners say how they feel.  If they didn't like it, they say so.

Facehuggers don't have heads!

Come with me and Journey Into... another fun podcast


GinaCole

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Reply #31 on: April 20, 2007, 06:48:30 AM
Whenever I hear that a Escapepod has a story by Mike Resnick, I groan inwardly. Not because I hate his stories, but because they're always beautifully written pieces that evoke a very specific feeling and leaves me mulling over the story for a good portion of the month - often this feeling is of sadness, which puts me in a funk for the time that I'm thinking it over. Still, I find them to be wonderful stories, and this story was no exception.

Being an American living in a foreign land will give you a different insight on not only other cultures, but your own people. I felt that this story portrayed both the tourist and local very accurately. I found myself nodding my head & smirking when the Antarean gave his educational background as this is kind of over qualification is rampant in other countries due to the severe lack of jobs.

Also, the family's reactions to the various landmarks and local street urchins was spot-on as well.

All in all I found the story great. Also, i felt that the narrators did a really great job and made the story much more fun to listen to.

Its not like the movies... they fed us all little white lies...


Simon Painter

  • Peltast
  • ***
  • Posts: 105
Reply #32 on: April 20, 2007, 01:56:12 PM
I've been debating whether I should make a response to Mr Resnick's comments. I've finally decided to do so, though purely in an effort to clarify my own opinion. Out of respect to our host, I've no wish to start an argument. I know subjects like this can be touchy, so I'll do my best to tred gently.

First off, I whole-heartedly agree that the situation in Egypt Mr Resnick described is a genuine problem, and an issue that is worthy attention.  I agree also that we have a big problem in the West with ignorance of other cultures. My critisisms of Mr Resnick's story are purely literary. My main points, which I stand by, are these: 1) that it has little or no plot, 2) that the characters are poorly developed, and 3) that it contains no science fiction elements.

For the first, I do not require any plot twists or tagged-on happy endings to satisfy me. I agree with Mr Resnick's comment about the cheapness of surprise endings: they are something that rarely works.  I've no problem at all with an ending that's predictable or inherent, just so long as the plot develops.

The second point I can overlook. This is a short story, and detailed characterisation is very hard in such a short space of words.

For the third point, I disagree that labelling this a science fiction story adds any insight to the situation it puts forward. If anything it might have been more effective if it had retained its original Cairo setting, as that would make everything so much closer to home.  It reminds me of something Jon Pertwee used to say, that the scariest monsters are those you find in your own home, rather than going to other worlds to find them.  I think this might be the case here, that these "monsters," the tourists, might be scarier if they they were shown existing in the real world, and that the guide was one of a number of real people.

I'm not saying that "This is not science-fictiony enough, therefore it's rubbish," just that I feel it's been written in the wrong Genre. Should Mr Resnick ever rewrite this as a mainstream or even an autobiographical piece, I genuinly would be interested to read it.

To be honest, I was rather taken aback by Mr Resnick's argumentum ad numeram view, that the number of awards it has won proves the story's merits. The fact that many people hold an opinion does not make it more valid than any other.

If I've caused any offense by this post, I sincerly apologise. It's not my intention to offend, just to properly explain my opinions. 

Simon Painter
Shropshire, UK

"Save the Squonk!"


Thaurismunths

  • High Priest of TCoRN
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1421
  • Praise N-sh, for it is right and good!
Reply #33 on: April 20, 2007, 02:35:39 PM
For the third point, I disagree that labelling this a science fiction story adds any insight to the situation it puts forward. If anything it might have been more effective if it had retained its original Cairo setting, as that would make everything so much closer to home.  It reminds me of something Jon Pertwee used to say, that the scariest monsters are those you find in your own home, rather than going to other worlds to find them.  I think this might be the case here, that these "monsters," the tourists, might be scarier if they they were shown existing in the real world, and that the guide was one of a number of real people.

I neither agree, nor disagree with any of your other points, and I do not mean this in context of this story alone, I only debate the merits of this one comment.

A spoon full of sugar helps the medicine go down:
A story is only effective if it gets told/read. If the audience doesn't hear/read your story then the message is dead and it's as good as having never been created. So, if you want to make a point to an unwilling audience it some times helps to wrap that message up in a story that will make it easier to take: a fable.
What I mean by unwilling audience is that if we actively wanted to be better people all the time, we wouldn't waste our time reading silly make believe stories, we would be active and out there in the world, changing things and campaigning for peace and saving lives. But we aren't. We sit her in front of our computers and enjoy fiction. There's nothing wrong with that in moderation, but often people get comfortable with fiction and distraction and look less and less for ways they can improve themselves or the world.
So how do you get your message to an audience that isn't actively looking for an outside perspective? That's where writers and story tellers come in. They bundle meaning with entertainment.
Some obvious objections to this is are "If I wanted a morality tale, I'd have gotten one." or "Who are you to say that I'm culturally insensitive?" or "I'm not here for morality. This is my distraction." Unfortunately, writers can't write a story for every reader all the time. The best they can do is shot-gun the world, aiming a genre and hitting whomever picks up their article. Most people will just get grazed, for some it will go right over their heads, but once in a while someone’s going to get hit where it counts and they’ll be motivated to change the world.

How do you fight a bully that can un-make history?


clichekiller

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 58
Reply #34 on: April 20, 2007, 03:37:54 PM
I've been debating whether I should make a response to Mr Resnick's comments. I've finally decided to do so, though purely in an effort to clarify my own opinion. Out of respect to our host, I've no wish to start an argument. I know subjects like this can be touchy, so I'll do my best to tred gently.
First I would say that if there is one universal truth about good literature, it is that it exists to make people think, challenge preconceived notions and spark debate; it is only through discussion that we can grow as individuals. 

First off, I whole-heartedly agree that the situation in Egypt Mr Resnick described is a genuine problem, and an issue that is worthy attention.  I agree also that we have a big problem in the West with ignorance of other cultures. My critisisms of Mr Resnick's story are purely literary. My main points, which I stand by, are these: 1) that it has little or no plot, 2) that the characters are poorly developed, and 3) that it contains no science fiction elements.

For the first, I do not require any plot twists or tagged-on happy endings to satisfy me. I agree with Mr Resnick's comment about the cheapness of surprise endings: they are something that rarely works.  I've no problem at all with an ending that's predictable or inherent, just so long as the plot develops.
I disagree with you here.  I think the story definitely had a plot; although maybe not one as concrete as some.  I viewed the plot to be the internal conflict of the narrator between his extensive education and self worth and taking the easy way out by telling lies here and there because they're easier.  A battle not to become a total and complete sell out. 

The second point I can overlook. This is a short story, and detailed characterisation is very hard in such a short space of words.
Again I believe the narrator was really the only character that mattered.  He was the center of the story and the others only served as sources of conflict to move his internal struggle along. 

For the third point, I disagree that labelling this a science fiction story adds any insight to the situation it puts forward. If anything it might have been more effective if it had retained its original Cairo setting, as that would make everything so much closer to home.  It reminds me of something Jon Pertwee used to say, that the scariest monsters are those you find in your own home, rather than going to other worlds to find them.  I think this might be the case here, that these "monsters," the tourists, might be scarier if they they were shown existing in the real world, and that the guide was one of a number of real people.

I'm not saying that "This is not science-fictiony enough, therefore it's rubbish," just that I feel it's been written in the wrong Genre. Should Mr Resnick ever rewrite this as a mainstream or even an autobiographical piece, I genuinly would be interested to read it.
I once heard it said that a work should be considered science fiction if the science fiction elements are integral to the plot.  Such that if you can remove those elements and the work stands on it's own then it is just a mystery or war novel dressed up in science fiction garb, etcetera.  Issac Asimov's R. Daneel Olivaw novels I believe are a good example of this.  At their core they are murder mysteries, while Neil Stephen's Snowcrash or Diamon Age are fundamentally about technology and it's impact on society and as such couldn't be separated out.  This is not to say that Caves of Steel wasn't a good novel, and as such I enjoy many science fiction works that are just other novels wrapped in science fiction trappings.  Mr. Reznic's piece is one such work.   

To be honest, I was rather taken aback by Mr Resnick's argumentum ad numeram view, that the number of awards it has won proves the story's merits. The fact that many people hold an opinion does not make it more valid than any other.
While not absolute public opinion is often a good marker of merit.  Numerous awards would seem to indicate that this work was well received by a body of his peers and his target audience.  Though I will agree with you that it alone does not refute your opinion. 

If I've caused any offense by this post, I sincerly apologise. It's not my intention to offend, just to properly explain my opinions. 

Simon Painter
Shropshire, UK
Again I enjoy well thought out and expressed debate.  When it is done intelligently, as has yours, and not emotionally I believe there is a lot to be gained.  Thanks for making me think. 



slic

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 727
  • Stephen Lumini
Reply #35 on: April 20, 2007, 03:40:14 PM
Quote from: Thaurismunths
...but once in a while someone’s going to get hit where it counts and they’ll be motivated to change the world.
This is a very true statement, but keep in mind it applies to all things.  You could say the same thing if Mr. Resnick wrote this for a travel magazine or submitted it to Reader's Digest.  Someone in a Doctor's office somewhere (for many years to come, considering how often they update the mags) could read that and be just as affected.

To echo/further expound on madSimonJ's third point take the Original Star Trek episode "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" - better known as the Half Black/Half White guys episode.  Clearly, it is about race relations, and dissects the ridiculous idea that the colour of your skin is what defines you.  And yet you cannot just take that story and simply replace the characters with modern day equivalents.

Really, I think you could substitute Earther for American, Antarean history for Egyptian and the story here is the same.



SFEley

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1408
    • Escape Artists, Inc.
Reply #36 on: April 20, 2007, 03:46:26 PM
For the third point, I disagree that labelling this a science fiction story adds any insight to the situation it puts forward. If anything it might have been more effective if it had retained its original Cairo setting, as that would make everything so much closer to home. 

Argh.  I hate to step into discussions like this as editor -- I don't ever want people to think I'm cramping feedback or placing my opinion above theirs -- but since there is discussion on the whys and wherefores of this story (civil and intelligent discussion, no less!) I might as well throw my two cents in.

First, not a literary point, but a marketing one: if this story had been a modern recollection set in Cairo, it would not have been on Escape Pod.  Barring odd flukes of publicity, it almost certainly would have been read only by an audience that seeks out and reads travel stories -- and to that audience, this story would be preaching to the choir.

Casting it into science fiction may not have been strictly necessary for the plot, but it did get a message out to an audience that may not have received it otherwise.  I personally didn't think my time was wasted in learning the things this story told me.  And just as, in my EP102 outro, I said I didn't put plausibility on the top of my editorial list, I don't place the question "Is the SFnal component integral to this story?" above effectiveness or fun either.  I agree that most SF stories are stronger with a strong SF idea at their core, but it isn't universal, and it isn't the central point of my buying decisions.

This story blew me away on an emotional level.  I read it and got chills.  The scope, the grandeur, the tragic sense of history erasing all greatness...  It hits me deep for exactly the same reason that Shelley's "Ozymandias" is my favorite poem:


     I met a traveller from an antique land
     Who said: 'Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
     Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand,
     Half sunk, a shatter'd visage lies, whose frown
     And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command
     Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
     Which yet survive, stamp'd on these lifeless things,
     The hand that mock'd them and the heart that fed.
     And on the pedestal these words appear:
     "My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
     Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
     Nothing beside remains: round the decay
     Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
     The lone and level sands stretch far away.'


That poem, and "The 43 Antarean Dynasties," hit a nerve for me.  They're about the entropy of history and the universe -- and also about fighting that entropy.  To me this is a core of life.

I personally think this piece is the best of Mr. Resnick's that we've produced, and one of the top three contemporary stories we've run on Escape Pod.  It doesn't bother me if people disagree.  It's just where I'm coming from, and that's neither more nor less important than where anyone else comes from. 

(Finally: the imagery of this story, folks!  A million crystal spires!  A Spiral Ramp to Heaven!  Buildings large enough to contain God!  If we're talking about stoking the imagination with grand SF concepts, how frickin' cool is this stuff?)


ESCAPE POD - The Science Fiction Podcast Magazine


Thaurismunths

  • High Priest of TCoRN
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1421
  • Praise N-sh, for it is right and good!
Reply #37 on: April 20, 2007, 04:51:58 PM
Quote from: Thaurismunths
...but once in a while someone’s going to get hit where it counts and they’ll be motivated to change the world.
This is a very true statement, but keep in mind it applies to all things.  You could say the same thing if Mr. Resnick wrote this for a travel magazine or submitted it to Reader's Digest.  Someone in a Doctor's office somewhere (for many years to come, considering how often they update the mags) could read that and be just as affected.
Yes, that's a principal of my point.
The story could be written (gun could be aimed at) anyone. Mike decided to write (point) it at SF fans.

How do you fight a bully that can un-make history?


slic

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 727
  • Stephen Lumini
Reply #38 on: April 20, 2007, 05:47:54 PM
Quote from: Thaurismunths
...but once in a while someone’s going to get hit where it counts and they’ll be motivated to change the world.
This is a very true statement, but keep in mind it applies to all things.  You could say the same thing if Mr. Resnick wrote this for a travel magazine or submitted it to Reader's Digest.  Someone in a Doctor's office somewhere (for many years to come, considering how often they update the mags) could read that and be just as affected.
Yes, that's a principal of my point.
The story could be written (gun could be aimed at) anyone. Mike decided to write (point) it at SF fans.
I'm not going to try and guess on how Mr. Resnick decides a market for a story, but considering he's "the most-awarded short fiction author, living or dead, in science fiction history" (according to Locus, I'm told) it's not really surprising that he didn't submit a less sci-fi version to Reader's Digest - and for all I know he did, butI think you get my point.

Perhaps Mr. Resnick purposely chose to thinly veil the characters and setting so more people would draw the obvious parallels - but really that has no bearing on my personal liking/disliking of the story.



mike-resnick

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 41
Reply #39 on: April 20, 2007, 06:41:13 PM
Time for a clarification. I was not saying that anyone had to like the story because it won a batch of awards. I was saying -- as I have said here about "Barnaby in Exile" (a contemporary story told in the first person of a lab chimpanzee) and "Travels With My Cats" (about the consequences of rediscovering a book forgotten from one's childhood) -- the awards are simply proof that the definition of science fiction has changed and broadened, that writers are no longer constricted byJohn Campbell's definition of what science fiction must be and what it must accomplish. A travelogue set on another world, such as "The 43 Antarean Dynasties",  or stories about a chimp or a forgotten book, are, these days, accepted as legitimate science fiction every bit as much as stories about space wars and alien invasions. The awards simply support the fact that what I write IS science fiction and is universally accepted as such.

Most fans of the literature have adjusted and broadened their definitions. It's movie fans that seem stuck in the past these days. Ask any cross-section of film fans to name their top 10 or 20 science fiction films, and there are two brilliant movies that will almost never make their lists -- Dr. Strangelove and Charly. Both are demonstrably science fiction, but neither have starships, aliens, or zap guns, and most of the moviegoing public, while they'll confess to liking the films, don't consider them to be science fiction.

They're wrong, just as people who claim that Connie Willis's "Even the Queen" or David Gerrold's "The Martian Child" or (dare I say it?) "The 43 Antaream Dynasties" are wrong. Doesn't mean to have to like any of them, but the stories  are clearly, demonstrably science fiction.

-- Mike Resmocl



mike-resnick

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 41
Reply #40 on: April 20, 2007, 06:43:25 PM
Oops -- make that signature "Mike Resnick".

Seven eye surgeries in 3 years makes you hit a lot of wrong keys.

-- Mike



Simon Painter

  • Peltast
  • ***
  • Posts: 105
Reply #41 on: April 20, 2007, 08:26:50 PM
Gosh, where to start.

First off, I'm genuinely amazed by the intelligent and reasonable responses I've had.  On many forums offering an opinion contrary to the Host's would kick off some fairly nasty lines of conversation.  Since posting that last comment I was half-expecting to be banned faster than L. Ron Hubbard can type after a night of drinking caffeine!  That or an attack by a vengeful quill-wielding writer :-p

First-off, Thaurismunths:

I'm afraid to say that in my own experience, the chances of anyone's mind ever being changed by fiction are minute.  I'm reminded of the Frank Zappa obscenity trials in which the judges were concerned that his music was adversely affecting the youth of America.  Part of Zappa's defence was to point out that the vast majority of songs are love songs, but that listening to them doesn't seem to make us love each other any more.  Sadly, it's similar here, anyone with a political view adverse to this story will dismiss it out of hand or else give up on it.  The only people that will find meaning in it are those who already hold these views.

It goes without saying that it really shouldn't be like this.

For me a social observation story should work on two levels, the story itself and a deeper level of meaning for those that want to find it.  The only example I can think of off the top of my head is Animal Farm by George Orwell, which could be taken as a fantasy story about animals taking over a farm, of could be taken as a take on the Russian Revolution.  But in the case of Animal Farm, you don't need to appreciate the sub-text in order to be able to just enjoy the story. (This isn't a fantastic example, I know, but it's the first that comes to mind)



ClicheKiller:

(Nice Moniker, btw.)

I do accept your point about good literature existing to make us think.  I would also add that it should stimulate the imagination, this to me is just as important.

I'm afraid I'd be reluctant to accept the internal conflict within the guide, as this conflict was resolved before the story even started, when he decided to take the job.  Had the story started, f'rinstance, when the guide had just left University and was debating whether or not to become a guide, I could have accepted that as a plot.  In this case, though, there is no conflict, the guide's opinions are fixed before the story begins, as are those of the American Tourists.

With the Asimov pieces I'd actually be more inclined to think of them as Science Fiction pieces with a Murder Mystery backdrop.  The Science Fiction aspects are what he's trying to relate, the Murder Mystery is the medium through which he relates them.  With this story here, the story about the Tourists is what Mr Resnick is trying to relate, the Science Fiction elements are only a backdrop.

It's true that awards and popularity are often a mark of quality, but not always.  Dan Brown springs to mind for one example of an exception :-p (I'm in no way implying that Mr Resnick is as bad as Dan Brown, just giving an example to support my supposition)

Thankyou also clichekiller, you presented your arguments most eloquently, I'll look forward to seeing you around on these forums in future.


Mr Eley:

It's OK, I don't think you're trying to cramp feedback, your opinion is always welcome  :)

First off: I have automatic respect for anyone that likes Percy Shellley!  The Mask of Anarchy is one of my favorite poems, I literally have the T-Shirt.

I'm afraid the imagery of the story didn't do anything for me at all for two reasons.  Firstly, that to me this is background material, it's like the painted backdrop of a stage in a theatre, it's better if it's attractive to look at and portrays the atmosphere, but it's the story and the performances that're really important, anything else is secondary.  The second reason (which may possibly explain something of my attitude here) is that I'm a massive fan of the British New Wave SF Movement (Michael Moorcock, Barrington J Bayley, etc) where such imagery is commonplace.  Michael Moorcock for one has produced a multitude of such images in just about everything he's every written.

Also, this idea of Western ignorance is nothing new to me, I've been aware of it ever since I was at school, and images of American Tourists such as those portrayed here abound in films, and have for as long as I've been watching them.

Now, if that building had actually contained a God, we might be on to something  :P



Finally, Mr Resmocl (should we ever meet in person, you'll know me when I address you as that  :P):

SF for me doesn't have to be about "starships, aliens, or zap guns" and never has, just about ideas, vivid new ideas well told, or even just stories that exist for no other reason than to be good stories (though it's much harder to find cases of this working). 

To cite another example: to me calling this story Science Fiction would be like calling the David Carradine TV Series 'Kung-fu' a western, it isn't really.  The series is mostly concerned with philosophy, the Western element is just a backdrop, you could have set it almost anywhere without changing the characters or the plot one bit.

Similarly here, this story could be changed from Science Fiction to Mainstream by pretty much just changing the names and nothing else.



It might be worth mentioning at this point (I've probably not made this clear) that although I stand by my three criticisms, the main one is actually the lack of plot. I can forgive the other two to an extent if the plot is good enough to carry me along, and in this case I don't believe it was.


Thanks again everyone for such a though-provoking debate, it's been a good many years since I've had to think like this about my own opinions.

Simon Painter
Shropshire, UK

"Save the Squonk!"


SFEley

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1408
    • Escape Artists, Inc.
Reply #42 on: April 20, 2007, 08:37:16 PM
First off, I'm genuinely amazed by the intelligent and reasonable responses I've had.  On many forums offering an opinion contrary to the Host's would kick off some fairly nasty lines of conversation.  Since posting that last comment I was half-expecting to be banned faster than L. Ron Hubbard can type after a night of drinking caffeine!  That or an attack by a vengeful quill-wielding writer :-p

Pshaw, no.  Just to be clear: the only thing that will get someone moderated around here is an insult against a real person or group of people.  Strong disagreement is totally cool, as long as everyone's respectful of the people they're disagreeing with.  Overall I think this community does a superlative job of that.



ESCAPE POD - The Science Fiction Podcast Magazine


mike-resnick

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 41
Reply #43 on: April 20, 2007, 09:07:33 PM
madSimon --

Works of fiction never changed anyone's mind? Any student of
American history can refute that with just three words: UNCLE
TOM'S CABIN.

I suspect we will never agree on what science fiction is, and as far
as I am concerned that is a Good Thing, because you have just given
me my editorial for the next issue of Jim Baen's Universe. It will be
an historical survey of all the critics (and others) who tried to put
science fiction in a straitjacket, and how it has broken out and gained
new high ground every time.

So please accept my (sincere) thanks. Editorials are a lot harder to
come by than science fiction stories (my definition -or- yours).

-- Mike Resnick



Simon Painter

  • Peltast
  • ***
  • Posts: 105
Reply #44 on: April 20, 2007, 09:59:31 PM
with the very greatest of respect, I didn't say "never" just that the chances were minute.  It is certainly true that there are works of literature that've had a great influence on the world, but if you take the number of these next to the number of those that didn't, the gap is depressingly vast.

I do agree that we'll sadly never see eye-to-eye on this matter, although I should say that I've no interest in 'straight-jacketing' the genre, as you put it.  Believe it or not I have a very wide definition of SF, far more so than many of my fellows.  My *only* criteria is that the SF element(s) be a factor of the plot, not merely a back-drop.  This is the one-and-only restriction I place upon it, anything else is up to the writer.

I should reiterate that, as I'm sure is the same for many here, I'm willing to forgo any debate on classification if a good story is presented.  This is very much a side issue to me.

Simon Painter
Shropshire, UK

"Save the Squonk!"


Simon Painter

  • Peltast
  • ***
  • Posts: 105
Reply #45 on: April 20, 2007, 10:12:58 PM
Pshaw, no. 

I'm a little embarrassed to admit this, but I've no idea what "Pshaw" means.  I'm assuming from the tone of your post that I've not gone too far wrong.  Please don't hesitate to say something if I do step over the line, though.

Thanks,

Simon Painter
Shropshire, UK

"Save the Squonk!"


Jonathan C. Gillespie

  • Matross
  • ****
  • Posts: 262
  • Writer of Sci-Fi, Fantasy, Horror
    • Jonathan C. Gillespie, Author
Reply #46 on: April 21, 2007, 01:59:25 AM
He's saying, "Don't worry about it", or my favorite variation:  "Fugedaboutit".

Published genre fiction author with stories in print and upcoming.

Official site: http://jonathancg.net/ | Twitter: JCGAuthor | Facebook


mummifiedstalin

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Reply #47 on: April 22, 2007, 03:27:57 AM
madSimon --

Works of fiction never changed anyone's mind? Any student of
American history can refute that with just three words: UNCLE
TOM'S CABIN.

I suspect we will never agree on what science fiction is, and as far
as I am concerned that is a Good Thing, because you have just given
me my editorial for the next issue of Jim Baen's Universe. It will be
an historical survey of all the critics (and others) who tried to put
science fiction in a straitjacket, and how it has broken out and gained
new high ground every time.

So please accept my (sincere) thanks. Editorials are a lot harder to
come by than science fiction stories (my definition -or- yours).

-- Mike Resnick
I'll be interested in what you have to say about the limits of the genre. After all, the idea of genre itself seems to imply limits, or at least a strong tradition. If not for limits, then how could you ever distinguish science fiction as something discrete that could recognizably "break out and gain new high ground"? Even though there are, of course, numerous definitions of what actually constitutes the genre, it seems like almost all of sf's allies want to distinguish it as somehow "special." So maybe it's not a question of genre definitions as a *limit* to what science fiction must be. Instead, "genre" is what distinguishes it, makes it special and different from mainstream fiction (and from other genres).



mike-resnick

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 41
Reply #48 on: April 22, 2007, 09:21:04 AM
In one respect, it's a marketing tool. You say "mystery", people kinda sorta know what you're talking about. You then limit it even further, with "hard-boiled" or "cozy" or "trraditional" or what-have-you. Same with science fiction. You say "science fiction", you know you're not going to have a private eye going fown the dark alleys of 1940s Manhattan or San Francisco, unless there's an alien or something similar involved. But because science fiction encompasses all time and all space -- my own definition, however inadequate, is that it deals with an altered past, an alternative present, or an imagined future -- you can't put the same straitjacket/restrictions on it that you can on a detective story or a Western.

Publishers love categories, because every category has a ceiling, above which nothing but the exceptionally rare DUNE or GORKY PARK sells, and a floor, below which nothing sells. You call it "science fiction" and you're going to sell X,XXX copies even if it's got all blank pages. So from a publisher's point of view, when he's dealing with any new or unproven writer, all he has to do is keep his expenses below the floor (low advance, generic cover art, no ads) and he can't lose money....which is why publishers love genres and categories, even if no one agrees about their definitions and restrictions. It lets them know how much (or how little) to spend, and for publishers, it's not about Art, it's about Profit. (Which is not a perjorative; if they don't make a profit, no one pays us to attempt art.)

-- Mike Resnick



Simon Painter

  • Peltast
  • ***
  • Posts: 105
Reply #49 on: April 22, 2007, 09:35:51 AM
out of curiosity, do you count Cold Comfort Farm by Stella Gibbons as Science Fiction?

"Save the Squonk!"