EP101: The 43 Antarean Dynasties

[Mfitz]

.
Where I live, people I think of as "blindly religious" are far from a tiny minority.

Now I'm taking it further off-topic.   
Maybe we should start another thread.....

Same goes for Southwest Ohio.  No one is trying to make Islam cool here.  Nuke the ragheads is more the tone. 

People called in on local talk radio, and complained in the Cincy Inkliar that other than Christian clergy took part in some of the Virginia Tech memorial services because that somehow was a slam at what it really means to be American.

You do see people pray in public eating places here.  I've been told that because I'm RC I'm an idol worshiper not a real Christians.  We have a Creation Science Natural History Museum going in across the river for heaven's sake.  How much more crazy Christian could the area get?

[Mr. Tweedy]

I think we need to rethink what is meant by the word "tollerance."  Like many terms, the meaning of the word has become polluted and turned into Newspeak.

What tollerance actually means is this: You allow others to believe or behave in ways you disaprove of any you don't harras or assault them for it.  You leave them alone.

But that's not how it's come to be used.  Now, when people say it, they usually mean that you must accept other people's belliefs and behviors as right.  You must not disaprove.  In fact, you must approve heartily and do it with a smile.

These two are not nearly the same.  What DKT says is true, "The idea of tolerance is so that people will be educated and understand the different kinds of religion and have respect for them.  I can be a Christian and respect people who have different faiths than I do without accepting what they believe as my own faith."  But that isn't how the word "tollerance" is usually used in 2007.

To ClintMemo: I don't think that defining marriage as male-female has anything to do with either intollerance or blind belief.  There's a lot more to the argument than that and homophobia need not enter into it.

Side note: I guess I've been lucky in not encountering that sort of speech from the pulpit.  I can't say I've heard anything like that in any of the churches I've gone to.  (Not that I would go to a church where the pastor makes such an ignorant statments.  Most AIDS victims are heterosexual anyway.)

[mike-resnick]

I had no idea my little story would generate this type off discussion, but as long as it has...

I am a lifelong athiest. I wish I believed in God, because I see what comfort such a belief brings to others -- and having just passed my 65th birthday, I would take enormous comfort in believing in an afterlife.

In my books and stories I have tried to treat all religions with respect...and
I caught a lot of hell for it when I was writing the Kirinyaga stories. I have had protagonists of every faith and no faith, and I have even given God speaking lines in a few stories.

I have no problem with anyone's faith. My problem comes when they insist that they have a direct line to God, know His tastes and desires, and have the right to enforce those belief on others using God as their authority. "God is against same sex marriage." "Allah says kill all unbelievers." "Jehovah says you must keep kosher." "You obey God's rules as my church/temple/mosque/shrine interprets them or you've got a one-way ticket to hell."

My only answer is, "Yeah? Well, I was talking to God just this afternoon and He didn't say anything about that to me -- and come to think of it, He never mentioned -you- at all."

-- Mike Resnick

[DKT]

With total respect, Mr. Tweedy, the dictionary on my desk at work defines tolerance as "The capacity for or the practice of recongizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others."  Which is pretty much where I'm coming from whenever *I* use the word tolerance.

As far as the church thing goes, it really is weird.  That incident was the worst thing I'd ever heard from a pulpit, but I've heard subtle gay-bashing and the villification of liberals at the other churches I attended in those 6 years too.  Like I said, we live close to LA.  It's strange that in a place so big and so liberal, we've struggled so hard to find a church.  We've met some great people at different churches and maintain friendships with them, but we don't go to any of those churches anymore...

I also just started a new discussion about Christianity in Fiction here:
http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=815.0

I'm attempting to be proactive but really I'm procrastinating!

[slic]

I do agree with the comments about the anti-religios slant within sci-fi, though I would admend it to say I've never seen a hero in sci-fi that is very religious.  Lots of the sci-fi baddies are non-religious, as well, though.

I will add my voice to the idea that where you live in the States affects the prevalence of  "Western culture's anti-Christian leaning".  Having recently returned to Canada after living in the Indianapolis for nearly 4 years.  Many people who I thought should have minded their own business were happy to mutter under their breath that I was essentially going to Hell. 

I think the issue is that Christianity is so prevelant in North America - only it's holidays are considered statutory holidays, you have Easter and Christmas decorations in stores, on streets - songs on the radio etc..  I think the other part is that NA christians are alot more open in the faith - the only way I know you are kosher is if pay attention to what you eat.  Muslims don't pray at there desk - they find a quiet, out of the way room.  I've been in restaurants where the whole family with clasp hands, bow their heads and speak a prayer - personally, I'm unoffended by it, but my point is that it is very obvious, and how many other religions do that (in NA)?

Look at the backlash against headscarves. Here is a very obvious form of religious belief and it is banned in public schools in France.

I don't think that defining marriage as male-female has anything to do with either intollerance or blind belief.  There's a lot more to the argument than that and homophobia need not enter into it.

How is denying same sex marriage about anything but homophobia? I would really like to know your arguements.

[Mr. Tweedy]

What dictionary are you using?  I'm using the Oxford American Dictionary (the one that comes with a Mac).

The OAD defines tolerance as "1.) the ability or willingness to tolerate something, in particular the existence of opinions of behaviors that one does not necessarily agree with.  2.) the capacity to endure continued subjection to something... without adverse reaction"

I don't think tolerance implies either appreciation or understanding, just abstaining from persecution or antagonism.  My dictionary agrees.

Appreciating and understanding contrary viewpoints is good and important, but it isn't implied in tolerance.  You can tolerate something you don't understand.

Checking out your other topic...

Mike Resnick: Don't confuse God with religion.  God is a person.  Religion is something people do.  People can be wrong and therefore religion can be corrupt, but that isn't necessarily a reflection on who God is.

[slic]

"The capacity for or the practice of recongizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others." 

No where does DKT's definition mean that you have to agree either.

Now, when people say it, they usually mean that you must accept other people's belliefs and behviors as right.

This is likely just the company you keep. 

If I am to respect a person with a different religion then I have to be honest and say that his/her religion is wrong.

I'm not exactly sure what you meant by this.  Are you saying that you personally can only respect a Buddist if you personally think his is wrong and bound for Hell?

[Mfitz]

My only answer is, "Yeah? Well, I was talking to God just this afternoon and He didn't say anything about that to me -- and come to think of it, He never mentioned -you- at all."

-- Mike Resnick

That's always what I think in my head, but I almost never get the nerve to say it out loud.

[DKT]

Clearly our dictionaries need a grudge match.  I'm using the American Heritage Dictionary.  It came with my desk

Whatever the case, it seems we don't agree on the definition of tolerance, with or without our dictionaries.  But I get where you're coming from.  

And I'm thrown off by your repsonse to Mr. Resnick, too.  How did he confuse God and religion?

[Mr. Tweedy]

To slic:

When homosexuals demand that they be legally able to marry, they are asking for the state to formally endorse and sanction their behavior.  This is far more than asking for tollerance: They already have that (as they should).

Homosexuals are already completely free to live their lifestyle and have access to the same legal rights as heterosexuals, including the oft-bemoaned inheritance and medical consent rights.  These arrangements can be made with a stop at any law office: A wedding is not required.

The only reason for homosexuals to be able to marry is to give them saction, for society to formally state that their behavior is good, healthy, moral, etc, and furthmore to hallow it and give it reverence and respect.  This is a demand for far more than tollerance: It is a demand that each of us change our beliefs to match theirs.  It is a demand that I alter my morality, my religious beliefs and my view of my own sexuality in subservience to theirs.  It isn't enough that America tolerates: America must approve, agree and endorse.

In other words, it is a minority attempting, through law, to force its beliefs upon people who just want to be left alone.

Fear of or aversion to homosexuals is not part of my reasoning.  I've lived in the same appartment building with homosexuals, worked closely with them, attended classes with them and invited them to dinner in my home.  Homophobia isn't the issue here.

(Talk about off-topic!)

[Holden]

I have an interest in etymology. The discussion on tolerant/intolerant caught my eye. Instead of posting on this thread, I will start a new one. Any further discussion on the meaning of 'intolerant' is welcome and encouraged there.

[slic]

Mr. Tweedy,

...they are asking for the state to formally endorse and sanction their behavior

We will have to simply disagree about your interpretation of the reason for gay marriage.
For me, it is simply the desire to be included in all aspects of society.  It's not much different in my view to not letting blacks marry, or not letting women own property.  Many, many people get married with no religious intent/inferance (myself included).  It's not like gay people demand to get marriage in your church - I'm sure most would be satisfied with a Justice of the Peace.

How are you not adverse to something if you wish to exclude it - "I don't hate you, I just don't want you in my house"?

And to get pointed - what about sodomites, child molesters, etc.?  They are allowed to marry - in some cases even lead a church (until they are publically exposed, of course).

[SFEley]

THIS. ENDS. NOW.

I'm sorry I haven't been keeping sufficient tabs here.  I'm too damn tired right now to go back and figure out where the off-topic talk started. I don't particularly feel like moving it all, especially since the story author's chimed in.  And I do not want to lock a story comments thread against future feedback.

But it ends.  Any future comment in this thread that is not specifically and completely about "The 43 Antarean Dynasties" by Mike Resnick is going to get deleted immediately.  If you want to talk about gay marriage or religion or whatever the hell you want to, we have a Gallimaufry forum.  It means "miscellaneous."  Look it up.  All things are welcome there, until people start personally insulting each other.  That hasn't happened yet, but my nerves are fraying.

Moderators, you have your orders.  Phasers on delete.

I look forward to the continuing discussion about the story.

[ClintMemo]

Long after listening, I realized that the Tour Guide reminded me of Kif from Futurama - except that his was not funny.
(though I remember laughing out loud at some the idiotic things the father said)

[JaredAxelrod]

Long after listening, I realized that the Tour Guide reminded me of Kif from Futurama - except that his was not funny.
(though I remember laughing out loud at some the idiotic things the father said)

There was a Kif-esque tone to the narration, wasn't there?  In accent and the cadence.

...That vocal choice makes a lot of sense, now that I think about it...

[ClintMemo]

Long after listening, I realized that the Tour Guide reminded me of Kif from Futurama - except that his was not funny.
(though I remember laughing out loud at some the idiotic things the father said)

There was a Kif-esque tone to the narration, wasn't there?  In accent and the cadence.

...That vocal choice makes a lot of sense, now that I think about it...

The voice, definitely, but also the character itself - mild mannered, very capable, very under-appreciated, having to sadly serve an arrogant and less capable man.

[mike-resnick]

If you all think he resembles Kif of Futurama, then probably he does -- but the author confesses to having no idea who or what Kif and Futurama are.

-- Mike Resnick

[ClintMemo]

If you all think he resembles Kif of Futurama, then probably he does -- but the author confesses to having no idea who or what Kif and Futurama are.

-- Mike Resnick

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futurama

Futurama is an animated television show created by Matt Groenig (sp), creator of "The Simpsons."   It is a science fiction comedy set in the year 3000.  I could go on praising it at great lengths (as could lots of others around here.)  In the US, it was on the Fox television network for 4 seasons and is currently in reruns on Cartoon Network almost nightly.   There are new episodes in the works to be shown on (I think) Comedy Central. 

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Ss/0149460/3009800_2_5.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.imdb.com/rg/photos-name/summary//gallery/ss/0149460/Ss/0149460/3009800_2_5.jpg.html%3Fpath%3Dgallery%26path_key%3D0149460&h=637&w=485&sz=25&hl=en&start=1&sig2=rb73HfimgYNGeMZgvPc-EA&tbnid=alh8pJybtUE8JM:&tbnh=137&tbnw=104&ei=hhRFRuXXD4WqhQS3hMDGCw&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfuturama%2Bkif%26gbv%3D2%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG
More specifically, Kif was the 1st officer to the very over-the-top Captain Zapp Brannigan. 

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Ss/0149460/3009800_2_5.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.imdb.com/rg/photos-name/summary//gallery/ss/0149460/Ss/0149460/3009800_2_5.jpg.html%3Fpath%3Dgallery%26path_key%3D0149460&h=637&w=485&sz=25&hl=en&start=1&sig2=rb73HfimgYNGeMZgvPc-EA&tbnid=alh8pJybtUE8JM:&tbnh=137&tbnw=104&ei=hhRFRuXXD4WqhQS3hMDGCw&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfuturama%2Bkif%26gbv%3D2%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG

[mike-resnick]

OK, that explains it. I haven't watched a network TV series since 1980. I decided I could either watch TV or write -- I'm sure madSimon thinks I made the wrong decision <g> -- but I couldn't do both. So it's been 27 years and counting, and somehow I do not feel culturally deprived.

-- Mike Resnick

[BrandtPileggi]

Oh my God, that's funny. I thought of Kif the whole time! Ha!

The story was great! I have a degree in Anthropology and one of my professors (and now good friend) was one of the people that did the field research with Napolean Chagnon in the Amazon with the Yanamamo. With all the Eco-tourism taking off, he had endless accounts like this one. This is SO dead on, it's sad. Great story Mr. Resnick.

-Brandt Pileggi
(sorry for grammar and spelling. @ work)

[Nora]

Wow.  Steve's comment in the recent episode about the controversy regarding this story lured me here, because I wondered what on earth could've been so controversial about it.  But after skimming this topic, what this seems to boil down to is that it's not the story itself that was controversial, but the dominant-culture guilt (or resentment thereof) that it triggered.  Most of the comments seem to reflect this in one way or another -- for example, the repeated comment that the characters were two-dimensional.  Yes, they were, if you expected development of the tourists -- but the story wasn't about them.  (I found it interesting that so many readers tried to identify with the tourists, rather than the tour guide protagonist.)  It would've co-opted the story entirely if the author had focused any further on them, IMO; the point was to see people like this through the lens of the tour guide.  Yeah, it's an ugly, one-dimensional picture -- but what do you expect?  Why would any tour guide try to delve further into the personal lives of his clients so as to develop a more nuanced understanding of their behavior (beyond what's necessary to make a decent tip)?  Why would he give a damn about the culture they come from, when he can learn all he needs to know about it from the behavior of its people? 

The Antarean characters, in particular the tour guide, were well depicted, IMO.  The examination of the tour guide's internal conflicts, his hopes and ultimate hopelessness, gave the story a richness and realism that's unfortunately rare in science fiction, so I'm glad the genre saw fit to recognize it with a Hugo.  I'm also glad EP ran it for me to hear.  Bravo!

[Listener]

But after skimming this topic, what this seems to boil down to is that it's not the story itself that was controversial, but the dominant-culture guilt (or resentment thereof) that it triggered. 

One of my Poli Sci classes was "Politics of the Developing World", and I really got a lot of dominant-culture guilt out of that class.

Like many others, I got the "American tourists in a Buddhist monastery in Asia" vibe, but I still liked the story.

[robertmarkbram]

A magnificent story.

Nora's comments reflected upon "dominant-culture guilt". The sense of sadness portrayed through the down trodden narrator really got to me. Damn tourists! I think that "dominant-culture guilt" is a good thing to have. It reminds us that everything we do as a community/society/nation ... and global community has a cost. Finding this expressed in Mike Resnick's "The 43 Antarean Dynasties" reminds me that one day, I believe we will be in a position to decide what that cost will be on other planets as well.

I empathised strongly with the narrator because of my own "dominant-culture guilt". I certainly felt disappointed when the blind guy was revealed not to be the new Neo.

Of course, it is not just about cost. Stephen Eley expressed it as the entropy of history.

That poem [Shelley's "Ozymandias"], and "The 43 Antarean Dynasties," hit a nerve for me.  They're about the entropy of history and the universe -- and also about fighting that entropy.  To me this is a core of life.

I admire the way Steve put it, and yet I feel conflicted when I hold it up against my own thoughts of "dominant-culture guilt". Nothing lasts for ever (that's entropy), yet the Antarean's didn't fall apart like a statue eroding over time; guilt was a distinct flavour in this story.


hmmm.. everything else I was going to reflect on has already been said.

I only wish I could visit the walk Spiral Ramp to Heaven. Imagine the photos I could take of a building large enough to contain God! I could take the photo on my mobile and SMS it to my friends..

Rob

[El Barto]

I discovered Escape Pod earlier this year and have spent the last few months joyfully listening to more than 150 previous episodes.   I'm delighted to see the discussions taking place here in the forums and hope to add some small value to them as time unfolds.

Having now also read all the comments posted here -- something that took almost as long as listening to the story -- I provide my feedback with those comments in mind.

The first thing I thought after listening to this story was, "we are SO not ready to explore the galaxy:  I could see this happening down to every last detail."   Sure, our space explorers are likely to be our best and brightest and most polite but what about the second, third, and tenth waves or humans that teem into the galaxy?   

It also got me thinking about how we as a civilization and collection of cultures need to evolve and mature, and wondering how that will (hopefully) happen someday.  For the life of me I can't remember having read a good story -- ever -- that does a good job of explaining how we could/will grow up as a society.  What makes it happen?   Who is the catalyst?  Do we need to hit bottom first?  Is it a shared threat from within or without? 

So, in that regard, the story was a success in that it definitely made me think.

And, while I am one of those people who absolutely loves hard sci-fi (and will throw a hissy fit when Asimov's or Analog or Escape Pod runs something that is utterly devoid of Sci-fi elements**), I'm quite fine with occasional stories like this that use a distant world as the setting for holding up a mirror to current human society.  In that regard, I disagree with the posters who said you could have just done this in Egypt.   If this story was in Egypt we would have all known what was coming.   Here we learned the story of their culture and every new fact provided insight into their world.   In the end there may not have been many twists but the future may really look as Resnick painted it here, and for me that made for a good listen.

All in all I felt it was a good story but didn't love it.


-Bart

**  The only example I can think of, of a Mike Resnick story that seemed utterly devoid of sci-fi and yet was published in a sci-fi magazine was "Alasdair’s Baffle’s Emporium of Wonders," in the Jan 2008 issue of Asimov's.   I thought that story (which was touching) contained zero sci-fi but rather was about "magic" and the devil.   Contrast to that to his other works I've loved such as Distant Replay from April 2007 Asimov's.

[El Barto]

I also just realized that Mike Resnick's "Article of Faith," Episode 193 here, is one of my favorites.   I also very much enjoyed his "Barnaby in Exile," and "Down Memory Lane," Episodes 073 and 055 respectively.  I will gladly read everything he reads!

-Bart