Author Topic: EP101: The 43 Antarean Dynasties  (Read 62869 times)

mike-resnick

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Reply #50 on: April 22, 2007, 08:43:45 PM
Never read Cold Comfort Farm. But if I were a publisher and she was an unknown quantity with no track record, I'd -label- it science fiction. The average mainstream novel prints 1500 copies in hardcover and never finds a paperback publisher. Market the same book as science fiction and you'll sell a couple of thousand hardcovers and close to 10,000 paperbacks even if it bombs. Market it as romance and you can triple those paperback numbers with a bottom-of-the-barrel seller. THAT's why publishers love categories.

Mike Resnick



mummifiedstalin

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Reply #51 on: April 22, 2007, 09:19:32 PM
I certainly understand what you're saying about the commercial effects on labelling genres. But of course that's not all there is. The sf fandom is one of the most willing to self-identify, to determine their tastes in opposition to mainstream and other genres, and is very self-conscious of its own literary history. So are there any positive benefits to thinking in terms of genre, or are you suggesting that in the end, the idea of genre is simply a marketing tool?



mike-resnick

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Reply #52 on: April 22, 2007, 10:03:34 PM
That's an almost-impossible question to answer, because there -are- two separate and distinct answers, both of them correct.

From the point of view of the publisher -- and without publishers there are no professional publications -- categories are simply marketing tools, and very useful ones.

From the point of view of science fiction fandom -- which on good days probably numbers abour 30,000 -- about one-hundredth of one percent of the American population -- it clearly means much more, and is the basis of a sense of community and shared interests.

There's a third answer, which is more meaningful to me personally. From the viewpoint of the writer, as long as I feel what I'm writing is science fiction and I can find some editors who agree with me, I couldn't care less about definitions -- yours, madSimon's, Gardner Dozois's, Stan Schmidt's, or anyone else's. If the day comes when I can't find a bunch of editors who agree with me, then I'll have to consider changing my notion of science fiction. But that day's not coming anytime soon. The reason I mentioned "The 43 Antarean Dynasties" awards and sales was not to brag or convince anyone they had to like it; it was to show that, in terms of the sales, 13 professional science fiction editors thought it fit comfortably in their publications and wss clearly science fiction; and in terms of the  awards, they were voted on my science fiction fans, who clearly had no problem defining the story as science fiction.

Mike Resnick



mike-resnick

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Reply #53 on: April 23, 2007, 04:10:50 AM
Again, I apologize for all the typos. Eye surgery #8 is coming up
in May. I would not anticipate the absence of numerous typos
anytime soon. Sorry about that.

Mike Resnick



slic

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Reply #54 on: April 23, 2007, 01:13:30 PM
No apology necessary, most of us have two perfectly good eyes and typos still show up everywhere.

I considered leaving in some of mine, but figured that joke needed a rest - nevertheless in this little note, I've added four extra letters and mispelt 'nevertheless' three times :)



Simon

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Reply #55 on: April 24, 2007, 10:12:53 AM
Hey guys,

Usually my analyses of stories on EP are based on dissection, I enjoy taking apart the cogs and looking at the screws, but in the case of this story MadSimonj and Slic have already covered everything about the structure I would like to say... So I'm going to talk about how I responded to it emotionally.

I strongly disliked this piece, really reacted to it on a gut level...  Something about the tone went straight to my insides and started chewing them up... Part of it might have been that I am am a relatively experienced traveller myself, and therefore found this twee rather than revelatory.  This week itself I happened to be in Knossos on Crete, visiting friends, and ended up taking a guided tour with a friend of a friend who has a masters degree in Physics but still makes his living giving guided tours of Knossos because real work is no-where to be found.  Crete is not the third world (although my professional experience in Archaeology and Geology mean I've spent quite a lot of time in these sorts of places thinking about these sorts of issues) but I think it illustrates that yes Mike is getting at something valid here.

The problem is that when a story such as this is a morality play as this one is, it needs some level of deeper insight and characterisation in order for it to hold any water, whereas in this piece I felt the characterisation was really pretty third rate.  I didn't empathise with these people, they didn't have enough backstory to empathise with (the only moment the story began to take flight with the blind "saviour" it dies off almost immediately back to the mundane themes)... And while there are many tourists like those mentioned here, I think it doesn't do justice to the story to use tourists this idiotic here.

I think part of it may be that I disagree with the politics so strongly.  This piece is preachy, and is designed as such, but doesn't hold any deeper insight.  These are complex issues, with complex solutions, and I want to talk a bit about Guilt, as already touched upon by Slic.  There is a very very strong theme amongst the western world's middle classes at the moment to feel something akin to puritan guilt about the failings of the economic process be they economic, environmental or political.  There have been a number of Escape Pod stories which to me have hinged on this Political Guilt - Blood Of Virgins, Smooth Talking, and Nano Comes To Clifford Falls.  I think that the key feature when it comes to enjoying these stories is whether feeling political guilt makes you feel virtuous, or kicks off your libertarian (as I have) instinct of "This is a problem, but it is not *my* fault". The audience for this story is the SF market, who are predominantly western and middle class, meaning that the villain in this story is universally similar to the neighbour down the reader/listerners street that they don't respect very much.  The target audience are the very people being demonised, so I will very heavily say that this story is about guilt and whether you find it satisfying to feel guilty.

Thinking about this I am near certain that it is this emotional reaction that put me off the story so strongly, and I'm rather glad I have written this post and got to the bottom of it.  In a story with these themes, I need something a little more than "the failings of western tourism as allegory" to get any enjoyment out of it.  There is no deeper insight here, no solutions offered here, and no real hope - it's an arrow pointed straight at middle class guilt, and I find that really distasteful.

As always much respect to Mr Resnick for taking on us naysayers in the comments thread.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2007, 10:29:54 AM by Simon »



mike-resnick

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Reply #56 on: April 24, 2007, 06:23:42 PM
I can't make you like it. Enough people did that I'm still in business. I was just explaining why it -was- science fiction.

Mike Resnick



Roney

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Reply #57 on: April 25, 2007, 07:30:14 PM
My first reaction to this story was that the reading is excellent.  There are only so many story ideas in the world, so it says something for the... texture of this implementation that it gave the readers so much to work with.  I was entirely convinced by the characters as portrayed, even if the tourists as written didn't have much depth.  (Even that seemed realistic: most people I've met come across as 2D when they've got their tourist hat on.)

I still thought the story was a bit "meh", mostly for reasons that others have mentioned.  Still, it's my favourite Mike Resnick story on EP so far, so I'll play a bit of devil's advocate.

Sure, there's no plot.  Plot is important to story, but short stories by their very shortness often benefit from concentrating on just character or scene instead.  This one had a fairly strong central character and a very densely painted scene: the addition of a plot could have diluted its focus or overwhelmed it with too many details.

Genres in Venn diagrams:
  • All fiction written is fantasy.
  • The subset of fantasy where the science is plausible or at least hand-wavily arguable is science fiction.
  • Mainstream fiction is the subset of science fiction where the science is restricted to the currently or historically possible.
Of course, genre labelling isn't that logical.  But on that scheme, there's no arguing that the story's SF.

Could it just as easily have ditched the SF trappings?  Well, no.  You could write a story about Egypt and bring out the ancient monuments aspect.  (I found this quite amusing in Egypt, actually, when our guide kept emphasizing how the beautiful temples had been built when Western Europeans were barely able to stand the stones of Stonehenge on their ends.)  You could write a story about pacifist reactions to occupation in, say, India or Tibet.  You could write a story about a culture that achieved heights of civilization long before Europeans got civilized, say in Mesopotamia or China.  You could write a story about a primitive nation being utterly defeated by superior technology, such as in the Americas.  But in an SF story you can bring together all these elements and make them bigger, wider, higher, older, wower.  It may not be a particularly imaginative tradition in SF but it's a distinguished one, and pushing those boundaries does mean that the SF element is adding something beyond an ordinary travelogue.

Preaching to the converted is pointless because the converted either feel patronized, or validated in their smug complacency.  An SF audience in America (where some stats indicate that fewer than 30% of citizens own a passport) may not already be converted to this story's message.

See?  Nothing wrong with it at all.  ;)



.Morph.

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Reply #58 on: April 26, 2007, 09:15:20 AM
I liked this story.
So many of you seemed to have problems with this story because it didnt reach any definate conclusions whereas i loved this story because it was a valid commentary that used SF storytelling to get across a point which is meaningful no matter what setting you put it in.

And as for people saying that there was no plot, in actual fact the story was based on telling the guides life experiences so theres your plot right there.
I do not think that the plot should be the main thinking point for this story....as with all resnick story i went away thinking about the inperfections that it highlighted in our own society or ways of thinking.

No human thing is of serious importance.
Plato


ClintMemo

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Reply #59 on: April 26, 2007, 12:06:00 PM
Well, I picked the wrong time to get behind on my Escape Pod listening. I've been avoiding reading this message board until after I listened to the story and when I finally get here I find the hugo award winning author is prominently in the thread.
How cool is that?

After reading the board, I'm reminded of something Scott Adams said about his short-lived Dilbert animated series. A producer (or someone similar) told him that the show was doomed because everyone liked it but no one loved it (and no one hated it.)  If it didn't make a strong enough emotional connection to make some people hate it (and others love it), then it would fail.

Well, Simon "strongly disliked" it and lots of people, (including me), loved it, so - Success!
Though, I suppose that's not surprising given it's Hugo award winning status.  :P

Congrats and good luck on the eye surgery.


Life is a multiple choice test. Unfortunately, the answers are not provided.  You have to go and find them before picking the best one.


mike-resnick

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Reply #60 on: April 26, 2007, 07:06:11 PM
You cannot have a valid fiction story in -any- category without conflict (which is why most so-called Utopian fiction is really anti-Utopian, or at least about major problems with a proposed or imagined Utopia). Plot is a way of working out the conflict, but the conflict is the essential element.

In "The 43 Amtarean Dynasties", the conflict was internal -- take the tip money and be humiliated yet again, or don't take it and go hungry. Was it resolved
in a satisfactory way? Well, No, if you want the narrator to overcome his difficulties -- but the problem is that I've -been- there, and there ain't no one in that position overcoming poverty this year/decade/century. If the purpose of the story was to elicit an emotional response, and it did so, then it worked.

Clearly it didn't work for some people. As a writer, I've been living with the unhappy fact that I can't please everyone for more than four decades now. But it pleased enough readers and voters so that I was still in business to write my next story, so to that extent -- and that's really the only extent a writer is concerned with -- it succeeded.

Mike Resnick
« Last Edit: April 28, 2007, 03:34:22 AM by mike-resnick »



slic

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Reply #61 on: April 28, 2007, 02:50:54 AM
Probably a bit late, but oh well. 

Simon explained well what I meant about "I can only imagine that this story won a Hugo out of guilt."  To add to Simon's points, the Hugo is voted on by Con attendees, a good part of whom travel, and his comment "it's an arrow pointed straight at middle class guilt" is exactly how I should have written my first post.  And, as such, I think Roney's point is backwards - that mostly this is the choir who is reading the story - which in turn, hopefully, further clarifies my "guilt" comment.

Another thing I will borrow from Simon, is a thank you to Mr. Resnick for putting up with and intellegently responding to critics - as he pointed out this particular story has been published in many markets and won at least one prestigious award.

As mentioned by mummifiedstalin, I too would be interested in your editorial in Jim Baen's Universe, Mr. R. 
Having just now found it online http://www.baens-universe.com/ I would consider subscribing to read it - when is it due out?



mike-resnick

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Reply #62 on: April 28, 2007, 03:32:30 AM
Let's see. My first editorial was for February, this is my third, the magazine is bi-monthly...I guess that makes it June. Writers and editors never know what the date is; I'm currently working on a 2009 novel, a story for a summer 2008
anthology, and the April 2008 issue of Jim Baen's Universe. Hell, often I don't even know what month it is, let alone what day.

I'll take my Hugos any way they come, including guilt. But I have some difficulty believing that the Spanish voters who gave it the Ignotus (their Hugo) did so out of guilt.

-- Mike Resnick
« Last Edit: April 28, 2007, 03:36:39 AM by mike-resnick »



Wingates_hellsing

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Reply #63 on: April 29, 2007, 03:42:47 AM
This story seemed to liken itself to certain wars of our own history. I feel it was a cut and paste of a culture becoming over-confident and facing destruction due to it's refusal to keep up with the world around them. I much prefer stories that go further away from things I have heard in history class yesterday.

The method was fun, I liked the historical statements of the other voice that always connected to the exact opposite things happening with the Hermes and his clients.



ClintMemo

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Reply #64 on: April 30, 2007, 11:50:28 AM
I much prefer stories that go further away from things I have heard in history class yesterday.


I think that until we start learning those lessons, bringing them up again in a different fashion is a good thing.

Life is a multiple choice test. Unfortunately, the answers are not provided.  You have to go and find them before picking the best one.


Thaurismunths

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Reply #65 on: May 01, 2007, 10:31:31 AM
Simon explained well what I meant about "I can only imagine that this story won a Hugo out of guilt."  To add to Simon's points, the Hugo is voted on by Con attendees, a good part of whom travel, and his comment "it's an arrow pointed straight at middle class guilt" is exactly how I should have written my first post.  And, as such, I think Roney's point is backwards - that mostly this is the choir who is reading the story - which in turn, hopefully, further clarifies my "guilt" comment.

Was Mike preying on guilt, or did he strike a nerve?
I can be difficult to tell the difference some times.

How do you fight a bully that can un-make history?


clichekiller

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Reply #66 on: May 01, 2007, 02:41:04 PM
Simon explained well what I meant about "I can only imagine that this story won a Hugo out of guilt."  To add to Simon's points, the Hugo is voted on by Con attendees, a good part of whom travel, and his comment "it's an arrow pointed straight at middle class guilt" is exactly how I should have written my first post.  And, as such, I think Roney's point is backwards - that mostly this is the choir who is reading the story - which in turn, hopefully, further clarifies my "guilt" comment.

Was Mike preying on guilt, or did he strike a nerve?
I can be difficult to tell the difference some times.
I really doubt Mike was after guilt as an emotion when he wrote this.  Heck I really didn't feel guilty after reading this.  To me I was more struck by the absurdity of such a highly educated individual having to choose between an academic career and that of a tour guide.  It also highlights nicely how little we value higher education and knowledge without any immediate practical application. 



mike-resnick

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Reply #67 on: May 01, 2007, 09:44:00 PM
For what it's worth, guilt never entered my mind. I thought his situation,
indeed the situation of a people who've spent a couple of thousand years
being occupied by first one conqueror and then another, who had their
religious idols defaced by both Christians and Moslems, who had been great
once and were reduced to catering to tourists for their major source of
hard currency, was tragic. It had nothing to do with guilt; I had no reason
to feel guilty, and unlike some, I don't take others' guilt upon myself.
It was just a little slice of life story that seems to have elicited a favorable
response from editors and voters. I would have said from readers, too --
but after reading these comments I'm not that sure.  ;-)

-- Mike  Resnick



goatkeeper

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Reply #68 on: May 02, 2007, 01:31:36 AM
I thought it was fantastic. 



Simon Painter

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Reply #69 on: May 02, 2007, 10:58:20 AM
Hi,

   Sorry for ducking out for a week, I've been on holiday to Germany.  It's been fasinating to read how this thread has developed, it's probably one of the most interesting threads I've yet read on a message board.

a couple of quick points to Mr Resnick:

I mentioned Cold Comfort Farm because it's most definitely not SF, it was written as a parody of Gothic Novels (the Bronte Sisters, Mary Web & co) the author didn't consider it SF and it was never marketed as SF.  The thing is, though, it was written in the 1930s and set in the 1950s.  It contains a number of predictions about the future (World War II, Air Taxis, etc) but this is all completely incidental and most readers wouldn't even notice it.  According to your definition this is SF and could be marketed as such.  It occurs to me, though, that any SF fan reading Cold Comfort Farm looking for an SF novel would be completely disappointed, but anyone who read it coming away from, say, Wuthering Heights, would probably love it.

By my definition this could be a Mainstream Novel or a Comedy, and fans of each genre would get far more out of it than those looking for SF. 

Personally I absolutely love it, and highly reccomend it to anyone  ;D but I read very widely in the genres.

Secondly, the idea that the plot is the internal struggle of the narrator.  I would agree that this would count as a plot, but this was (as I commented earlier) resolved before the story began.  The conflict occured when the narrator left university and became a tour guide.  When we meet him at the beginning of the story he's already resigned to his fate, and we're effectively presented with a long epilogue.

Also: it's not a requirement that a plot resolution be a nice one, any resolution is fine. To this day 1984 by George Orwell is one of my favorite books, which has one of the most downbeat endings I've ever read, but couldn't possibly be ended any other way without defeating the whole point of the book.

Simon Painter
Shropshire, UK

"Save the Squonk!"


finnmccool

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Reply #70 on: May 02, 2007, 06:27:08 PM
I registered for this forum just so I could comment on this story.  I thought it was beautifully crafted.  It brought to my mind a quote I heard from somewhere, "the supreme gift of an artist is knowing when to stop."  I usually like tidy endings, but if the resolution in this story had been too tidy I think I would have forgotten it by now instead of having it linger in my mind these several days.

The reading was also excellent.



mike-resnick

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Reply #71 on: May 03, 2007, 02:16:13 AM
madSimon -- you're asking me to defend my story, and this I refuse to do. Its record speaks for itself. If you don't like it, you don't like it and I'll have to live with that.

But I -will- defend my notion (which I think I have made clear is a majority opinion) of science fiction. There are certain stories and novels that screw up definitions. Back when I was a kid and the glaciers were still in California, Damon Knight and Jim Blish and Ajay Budrys called it the "Arrowsmith problem"...which is to say, it was just about impossible to come up with a definition of science fiction that disqualified Sinclair Lewis's ARROWSMITH, yet not a person alive considered it science fiction. Okay, this generation can call it the "Cold Comfort Farm problem" if you wish (I haven't read it; I'm trusting to your brief synopsis). There will be books and stories like that. But it proves nothing except that COLD COMFORT FARM isn't science fiction despite being set in the future (when written). You can probably name two or three others as well.

But my story used all the tropes of science fiction: an alien narrator, an alien planet, a far future setting, references to interstellar wars, alien physiologies, a consistent future in which I've set 25+ novels and 20+ stories, references to alien events. Is the story a metaphor? Of course it's a metaphor. Does that disqualify it as science fiction? Absolutely not.

-- Mike Resnick



Chodon

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Reply #72 on: May 03, 2007, 12:30:45 PM
Why is there always such a heated debate about what is Sci-Fi and what isn't?  I don't think we need to categorize everything out there into neat, little boxes.  This was a great story because it made me want to hear more.  I would like to see something about the 44th Antarean Dynasty.  I don't care if it fits into a "Sci Fi" genre or not.  I know what I like and this is it! 

Keep the great stories coming Mr. Resnick.

Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither.


Simon Painter

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Reply #73 on: May 03, 2007, 01:43:21 PM
I quite agree, Chodon.  Whether a story is SF or not isn't really an important issue.

I think the distinction is usefull purely because there are so many stories out there that it's usefull to know which ones are likely to appeal to you, due to being placed in the same category as a book you already like.

Had someone just finished, say, Pride & Prejudice by Jane Austen, it wouldn't be a particularly good idea to recommend them to try Starship Troopers!  That's perhaps an extreme example, but you get the idea.

Beyond this, though, I don't believe Genres to have any real importance.

My major critisisms of this story concern its plotting and characterisation, as I've said before it's genre is a side issue.

Simon Painter
Shropshire, UK

"Save the Squonk!"


DKT

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Reply #74 on: May 03, 2007, 05:22:18 PM
But I -will- defend my notion (which I think I have made clear is a majority opinion) of science fiction. There are certain stories and novels that screw up definitions. Back when I was a kid and the glaciers were still in California, Damon Knight and Jim Blish and Ajay Budrys called it the "Arrowsmith problem"...which is to say, it was just about impossible to come up with a definition of science fiction that disqualified Sinclair Lewis's ARROWSMITH, yet not a person alive considered it science fiction. Okay, this generation can call it the "Cold Comfort Farm problem" if you wish (I haven't read it; I'm trusting to your brief synopsis). There will be books and stories like that. But it proves nothing except that COLD COMFORT FARM isn't science fiction despite being set in the future (when written). You can probably name two or three others as well.
-- Mike Resnick

This got me thinking.  Does Cormac McCarthy's "the Road" fit into this category, or Michael Chabon's latest? 

I haven't read either, but their premises both sound like what SF/F fans (and most other people, actually) would consider SF/F but since the authors are who they aren't considered that.  I don't know how much this really matters to me -- I like both these authors anyway and look forward to reading the books.  What I do think is interesting is that people who normally wouldn't pay attention to something like this if it was on SF/F shelf and not a literature shelf will champion these books.  Not because they're better or worse because of it, just because where they are placed.