Author Topic: What defines "Sci-Fi"  (Read 7683 times)

RichGarner

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on: April 17, 2007, 03:30:50 PM
Ok. I was thinking about this a lot lately.

Someone once told me that Star Wars is not considered sci-fi, but fantasy. The reason they gave is that it takes place "a long, long time ago" and that the stories are all based on character conflicts and not about science experiments or anomalies. But that doesn't make sense because if you take away the "force" and the clones and the death star... the story is pretty absent.

So I began to think of a response regarding what classifies "sci-fi" and this is what I got so far:

Either (A) The setting must be impossible to achieve in reality, including world history or (B) a plot point must be impossible to achieve in reality.

For example, a story about a soldier in World War II is historic. But a story about a soldier in World War III is sci-fi.
Or a story about a police officer is modern. But a story about a police office who is sent through time to the dark ages is sci-fi.

What do you think?

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ClintMemo

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Reply #1 on: April 17, 2007, 05:23:54 PM
I consider Star Wars fantasy because there is no attempt to make the science in it in any way realistic - and by science, I really mean "things that do not exist in the present day or have never existed in the past." 

There have been lots of discussions about what the definition of "science fiction" is.  I tend to fall into the "hard science fiction" group, but as someone else pointed out, those types of definitions are pretty pointless.

I think the only meaningful categories are "I liked it" and "I didn't like it."  I've read read/watched both kinds of stories in every genre I can conjure up.

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lowky

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Reply #2 on: April 17, 2007, 05:30:21 PM
Third option on star wars, it is somewhere in between the two, and falls in the bulls eye for action adventure, other genres be damned.  Guns, light sabers, and force could have easily been replaced with bows, swords, and magic, so I can see the fantasy, but could also have been adapted as a pirate movie... Guns, swords, and voodoo/magic/pseudoscience/superstition.  Therefore I declare star wars to be action adventure fiction. 


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Reply #3 on: April 17, 2007, 05:57:02 PM
I'm a pretty light-weight geek, but I though "The Force" was "magic"?

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Heradel

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Reply #4 on: April 17, 2007, 08:03:29 PM
Third option on star wars, it is somewhere in between the two, and falls in the bulls eye for action adventure, other genres be damned.  Guns, light sabers, and force could have easily been replaced with bows, swords, and magic, so I can see the fantasy, but could also have been adapted as a pirate movie... Guns, swords, and voodoo/magic/pseudoscience/superstition.  Therefore I declare star wars to be action adventure fiction. 

Yes but the Death Star. You could argue out a move from all the space ships to sea ships, but a planet destroying energy weapon?

The movie's aren't very -Sci, but we also have to think about including the expanded universe, which does incorporate some more Sci. Also, remember this came out in the 70s.

Hard SF no, Soft SF? Yes.

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slic

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Reply #5 on: April 17, 2007, 11:50:38 PM
Quote from: Heradel
Yes but the Death Star. You could argue out a move from all the space ships to sea ships, but a planet destroying energy weapon?
Giant castle with magical beam that destroys whole villages.  It's just a matter of scale.

If asked directly I have very clear standard, for it to be science fiction there at least needs to be science.  For me, it's true science fiction if it is unlikely to happen tomorrow.
Sci-fi has a unique ability that other genres don't have - it use an imaginary advancement/situation that can shine a light on a part of the human condition and highlight it for examination.  I think of Larry Niven's "Gil Hamilton" universe whenever the idea of forced organ donation comes up.

So when I come across a story where substitution doesn't change the story (Alien's for Africans, Earther tourists for American tourists), for guys like me that's just not sci-fi.  And since many good stories mainly about characters are substitution stories (Star Wars, The 43 Antarean Dynasties, etc), you get people saying that stories "based on character conflicts and not about science experiments or anomalies" are not sci-fi.  This I find untrue - see "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"

There is a good read close to this subject at
http://escapepod.org/2006/11/30/ep082-travels-with-my-cats/#comments  -look for Bumbles and Mike Resnick

Usually, though, I just go with ClintMemo's comment "I think the only meaningful categories are "I liked it" and "I didn't like it." "



wakela

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Reply #6 on: April 18, 2007, 03:58:52 AM
Of course it's all ultimately pointless, but it's still fun.

I've said somewhere before that SF author George Alec Effinger in a lecture defined "Sci-Fi" as ray guns, rockitships, and robots.  "SF", on the other hand,  is is a story that you can't tell without the science.  Star Wars is Sci-Fi and Nightfall is SF.  Both are Science Fiction.  I think it's a useful distinction, so I go with it.

Outside of a college film criticism class I don't think you can get away with saying that Star Wars is not science fiction.  There are lots of robots and aliens and spaceships.  If you argue that it's actually fantasy because the robots and spaceships are not necessary to the story, I would argue that the force isn't necessary either!  You could have Vader kill Obi-wan, and remove the scene where Vader force strangles Lieutenant Commander Overbite.  Maybe Luke uses the force to make the lucky shot at the end, and maybe not.  He said he could bull's eye wamprats in Beggar's Canyon back home, and they're not much bigger than two meters.  Kurosawa's  "The Hidden Fortress" is almost exactly the same as Star Wars, and it's a samurai movie.  I think Lucas admitted being "influenced" by this movie, but he pretty much copied the story.

Back when I was in a film criticism class I tried convincing my mom that Singin' in the Rain was a science fiction movie.  It's about silent movie actors who careers and lives are altered by the coming of talkies.  It's a story that you can't tell without some kind of novel technology.  It just so happens that the technology was already developed.   I think you can imagine how well that went.



ClintMemo

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Reply #7 on: April 18, 2007, 11:47:39 AM
Quote from: Heradel
Yes but the Death Star. You could argue out a move from all the space ships to sea ships, but a planet destroying energy weapon?
Giant castle with magical beam that destroys whole villages.  It's just a matter of scale.

How about a really, really big airship that can bomb cities?

hmmm....
Star Wars with technology from 1900-1950...
Death Star is a big airship with atom bombs
Pistols and swords instead of blasters and light sabers.
Bi-planes instead of x-wings.
Sailing ships instead of freighters.
Cities instead of planets.
Oceans instead of space.
Slaves instead of robots (or more precisely, human slaves instead of robot slaves).

Life is a multiple choice test. Unfortunately, the answers are not provided.  You have to go and find them before picking the best one.


sayeth

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Reply #8 on: April 19, 2007, 02:13:07 PM
Of course you could rewrite Star Wars as a fantasy.  You'd replace the force with riding dragons.  It could be a bestselling teen novel and a bad movie.

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Reply #9 on: April 19, 2007, 02:34:41 PM
Of course you could rewrite Star Wars as a fantasy.  You'd replace the force with riding dragons.  It could be a bestselling teen novel and a bad movie.

You could do the opposite with A Wizard of Earthsea, by Ursula LeGuin, but then, it may improve the movie.



lowky

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Reply #10 on: April 19, 2007, 03:05:56 PM
Of course you could rewrite Star Wars as a fantasy.  You'd replace the force with riding dragons.  It could be a bestselling teen novel and a bad movie.

You could do the opposite with A Wizard of Earthsea, by Ursula LeGuin, but then, it may improve the movie.

 ??? They made an Earthsea movie?


slic

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Reply #11 on: April 19, 2007, 03:54:38 PM
Ya, for/on the Sci-Fi channel in the States - a year or more ago.

Don't remember if it made it to the Space channel in Canada, or the UK equivalent.



lowky

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Reply #12 on: April 19, 2007, 06:31:33 PM
ahh, didn't have Sci-Fi at the time, wonder if it's ever made it's way to dvd, or is it better off skipped.  As much as I loved those books when they first came out (I think I bought the original trilogy 3 times due to falling apart from reading), I am sure I would be disappointed in almost anything though.


ClintMemo

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Reply #13 on: April 19, 2007, 07:00:56 PM
ahh, didn't have Sci-Fi at the time, wonder if it's ever made it's way to dvd, or is it better off skipped.  As much as I loved those books when they first came out (I think I bought the original trilogy 3 times due to falling apart from reading), I am sure I would be disappointed in almost anything though.

I've never read the books.   I saw the mini-series.  IIRC, the first part was ok, the middle part was kind of a mess and the last part was so-so.  When it was over, my feelings were that the mini-series may have been sort of crappy, but I'll bet the books they were based on were good.  :P
So far, I haven't heard anyone who read the books that liked the mini-series.

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Anarkey

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Reply #14 on: April 20, 2007, 12:58:49 AM
ahh, didn't have Sci-Fi at the time, wonder if it's ever made it's way to dvd, or is it better off skipped.  As much as I loved those books when they first came out (I think I bought the original trilogy 3 times due to falling apart from reading), I am sure I would be disappointed in almost anything though.

I did not see the mini-series, so apply any grains of salt you think are necessary to my commentary.  However, since everyone in the commercials for the mini-series was white, and 99 % of the people in LeGuin's Earthsea are not, I considered the mini-series effort a failure from the getgo and refused to watch it, afraid it would reach into my brain and retroactively ruin the books.   

Disavowal of the movie from Ursula K. Le Guin.

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Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #15 on: April 22, 2007, 10:11:57 PM
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since everyone in the commercials for the mini-series was white

There was a black character.

Can everyone say 'magical negro?'



Startrekwiki

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Reply #16 on: April 23, 2007, 12:54:59 AM
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since everyone in the commercials for the mini-series was white

There was a black character.

Can everyone say 'magical negro?'

True. Ogion was African-American, I believe. But, other than that, there's not many others I can think of.



Anarkey

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Reply #17 on: April 23, 2007, 11:47:11 PM
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since everyone in the commercials for the mini-series was white

There was a black character.

Can everyone say 'magical negro?'

Mebbe I didn't notice him in the preponderance of fishbelly white (and of course, I did only watch the ads a couple of times...I'm not much into tv).  What I did notice was a viking looking Ged, which was enough of a wtf to keep me from seeing the miniseries.

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Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #18 on: April 24, 2007, 02:12:41 AM
Oh, sure. Didn't mean you should have caught him in the commercials. My family watched the mini-series so I saw parts of it.