Author Topic: Alternate History ideas  (Read 12465 times)

SonofSpermcube

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on: June 10, 2013, 12:40:28 PM
I suspect a large minority of people here have read at least one Harry Turtledove novel (and if it's Guns of the South or anything earlier than that, you might have even enjoyed it), so we're probably familiar with the idea of alternate history; though Escape Pod doesn't see all that much of it (the only ones I recall off the top of my head being "The Eckener Alternative," and "Night Bird Soaring").  That might be partly due to the tendency toward preachy, incoherent novel-length essays on libertarianism, or "OMG guys, what if the Nazis won?" Congressional book deals.  I dunno.

There are a lot of alternate history, and the related Connecticut Yankee-type modern man in an anachronistic setting sorts of books, but AFAIK they tend to tread the same ground, or the same sort of ground over and over again, despite hundreds of commonly known possible turning points, and probably millions of lesser-known ones. 

What are some alternate history concepts that you think could be interesting, but which as far as you know haven't been done?  How do you see it playing out?


For all the "what if the Nazis won?" talk, or other variants (Worldwar, for example), I don't know that I've ever heard of a story considering what if the Nazis had never risen to power.  Would the elements in the US and Britain that sympathized early on have driven the US and UK to wear the black hats?  Would WWII have happened anyway, only with the USSR? 



Or getting the hell away from the only history the Alternate History reading public knows (America's big wars):  What if the Ainu/Emishi hadn't fallen, and advanced apace with the Yamato?  Imagine another state in the north Pacific, on Sakhalin and Hokkaido.  Maybe a weaker Russian far east, as this state courts the ethnic groups of that region.  Maybe a stronger one as Russia devotes more forces to the region due to the presence of a power with more interest in the Sea of Okhotsk than Japan ever had.  Animal rights groups would be protesting the Ainu treatment of bears instead of or in addition to the Japanese's treatment of whales.  Maybe Yamato never gets its expansionism rolling on into the modern day having not had the history of success in the north to give them the experience and confidence to walk all over the Asian mainland. 

What if all that happened because Baekje defeated Silla in Korea, rather than the other way around, and the technology and culture of the fleeing Baekje refugees never invigorated (or founded, depending what view you take) the Yamato state in the first place.  Then you've also got a more strongly independent Korea; but one that is a more likely to end up in conflict with China and the Jurchens, so may be less likely to survive to the present day.  Also, they'd be speaking a different, though probably recognizable if not intelligible, language.  And the Japanese language as we know it wouldn't exist either.



What if the Lewis and Clark expedition had made it far west, but been lost and never reported back?  How much would that have delayed American westward expansion?  What opportunities might that have afforded the British, the Spanish/Mexicans, the Russians, and in particular the natives of the west (who would suddenly have an advantageous information asymmetry, if nothing else in their favor) to consolidate their positions?







lowky

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Reply #1 on: June 10, 2013, 02:36:25 PM
What about alternate history in someone elses world.  As an example what if Anakin skywalker was able to be turned from the dark side before he became Darth Vader.  or What if luke had joined him when asked in ESB. 

Steampunk does a bit with alternate history as well. 


Listener

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Reply #2 on: June 10, 2013, 05:25:14 PM
What about alternate history in someone elses world.  As an example what if Anakin skywalker was able to be turned from the dark side before he became Darth Vader.  or What if luke had joined him when asked in ESB. 


You can find almost anything alternate-history in fiction on sites like fanfiction.net.

Speaking of Turtledove, one of my favorite books of his is "The Two Georges", despite the fact that the ending felt a bit weak and quickly-wrapped-up for my taste. The world is rich and nuanced, and unlike other Turtledove books it generally just focuses on the one main character (basically Richard Dreyfuss, who "co-wrote" the book with him). The twist is that, in the 1760s, George Washington met with King George III and they hammered out an agreement that kept the Revolutionary War from happening. I highly recommend it.

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SonofSpermcube

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Reply #3 on: June 11, 2013, 02:04:40 AM
I kind of burned out on Turtledove after a few Worldwar books, then reading the jacket copy of a whole bunch of his contemporary and subsequent books where it was basically WW1 or WW2 BUT WITH MAGIC or whatever, I was like "fuck it." 

That does sound interesting enough to bother with. 

My favorite Turtledove books are "A Different Flesh," where the question is "what if North America had been populated by Homo Erectus and all the Pleistocene megafauna when the Europeans arrived?"; and "Between the Rivers," where it's "what if bronze-age mesopotamian city states were ruled by physical incarnations of their deities?"  I'm not sure if it was intended as such, but it comes off as an atheist-libertarian polemic. 



Longshoreman

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Reply #4 on: September 01, 2013, 10:06:55 PM
Alternate History genre books are always too expansive in what they try to achieve. Phillip K Dicks The Man in The High Castle is a good example; brilliant imagery but slightly confused plot, as with his style, and too much attempt at broad depth. He tries to explore all areas of culture in this fantasy world when it would be, perhaps, to have followed a single form of US culture struggling under Japanese domination and assimilation. I will stop myself before I get into a full length essay about that book and return the point I'm trying to make. I think a smaller, more imaginative change would give a just as exciting world without having to consume half the reading time in depicting this new world.

Here's my few simple ideas that could lead to some interesting possibilities:
In the 1963 Birmingham campaign Bull Connor was assassinated leaving no political pressure for the 1963 Bill, '64 and '65 Acts resulting the Black population still being segregated. Now imagine everything other than segregation has progressed in the format it has and the Black population have the own Facebook revolution taking inspiration from Egyptians toppling their corrupt government. If some with some intelligence takes this idea it could lead to a nice little short story about Occupy Times Square or Tweet on Washington.

What about if Curt Cobian hadn't killed himself?

Something a little more science fiction-erny
Nuclear fusion was perfected using Lasers; a room temperature super conductor lets say a mixture of carbon, Yttrium and silicon; what are the social consequences of this? entirely open this one.
Personal I think Marx's theory of the road to communism would be true and we would see a world wide socialist society lead by the young and innovative with the old guard being left out. This would be the dawn of humanity as an interplanetary species. But, it wouldn't be all roses as China and the US would fight this international socialism as the rest of the world fell into it they would be lagging behind to an extent keeping capitalist economies would stop pure communism coming through and a more democratic and small business fuelled world with Governments sponsoring science for sciences sake leaving it open to people to develop (except China + US which would almost retain the exact system they are using today making them wealthier but less prosperous)



jrderego

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Reply #5 on: September 02, 2013, 04:25:01 AM
I got one in the works in which The Zimmerman Telegram was ignored, and the first force of American soldiers are sent to the bottom of the Atlantic by a U-boat. Germany and Mexico were able to forge an alliance. Germany send over The Flying Circus to train and lead a force of Mexican pilots in support of their invasion of Texas. Meanwhile, Theodore and Quentin Roosevelt, with the help of Kiffin Rockwell, put together a rag-tag air force that is pressed into service as the Mexican Army with German support invades the United States.

It's fun to write about fake history.

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SonofSpermcube

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Reply #6 on: September 11, 2013, 10:54:26 AM
What about if Curt Cobian hadn't killed himself?


The future in Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure.



alwaysblack

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Reply #7 on: September 25, 2013, 08:25:08 AM
Successful alternate history writing depends on a plausible understanding of how history has shaped the present day, which is a pretty tough prerequisite.
The reason why 'what if the nazis won' is so common is because most of us understand WWII in terms of a semi-mythological, good vs evil template with 'good' being the eventual victors. That's something thats easy to grt across to a broad class of reader. To try anything more sophisticated,  the writer would have to be as good a teacher of real history as he/she was an engineer of alternate consequences.

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Reply #8 on: September 25, 2013, 11:18:07 PM
I think my favorite alt-history book is Lion's Blood, but Steven Barnes.  Sounds simple in summary: The New World is colonized by African settlers, who use European slaves for labor.  But the story is much more nuanced than that sounds - it's not just a simple color change.  Islamic and African culture really informs the world, and it ends up looking like a very different place than the USA.  And the story is actually pretty contained to one Celtic slaves perspective.



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Reply #9 on: November 09, 2013, 05:41:18 PM
I love alt-hist, but I've never read Turtledove, partly for his fixation on the Civil War (something I really wish we Americans could find a way to stop obsessing about).

My two faves are 1) Years of Rice and Salt, and 2) an obscure and somewhat silly little book called "Journey to Fusang". Kudos to anyone who's ever even heard of it.

I think I great pivot point is Pearl Harbor. Japan had three attack plans. We're familiar with the one that happened; the other two were the Soviet Union, or the British colonies in Asia (which happened along with Pearl Harbor).

In Nov. 1941, U.S. public opinion with something like >70% against entry into the War in *any* fashion in Nov. That flipped on Dec 8. If the Japanese had never attacked us, the world would look very different (IMHO).


I think my favorite alt-history book is Lion's Blood, but Steven Barnes.  Sounds simple in summary: The New World is colonized by African settlers, who use European slaves for labor.  But the story is much more nuanced than that sounds - it's not just a simple color change.  Islamic and African culture really informs the world, and it ends up looking like a very different place than the USA.  And the story is actually pretty contained to one Celtic slaves perspective.

We read in book club, and my chief problem with it is that Barnes reaches too far back in history to get where he wants to be but expects things to be a lot closer to today then you would have ended up with (I find it impossible to believe that you'd end up with Islam when you start messing around with Egyptian history the way Barnes does)



Prophet

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Reply #10 on: November 09, 2013, 07:03:17 PM
I love alternate history stories. Back in college I majored in History, so naturally I was plagued with "what if" questions in nearly every class. What if the Black Death never struck Europe (or struck somewhere else) for example?

My junior year at UMass Dartmouth the History Dept added a new professor. And one of the first classes he taught was actually an Alternate History course. We had one textbook, What If?, and a bunch of handouts. It was a lot of fun. I remember debating whether saving JFK would have led to the US pulling out of Vietnam sooner (so many like to think so, but there is some evidence supporting otherwise. at least, back then there was). Unfortunately, like many college kids I wasted the opportunity. Never finished the course. But if I had, my final paper was supposed to be my own alternate history piece.

The idea for my story was "What if Stalin died during the Revolution?" A Soviet Union without Stalinism. Honestly, as my own paper I think I bit off more than I could chew. But as a fan of Soviet history, I sure would like to read that. Would Trotsky have led the USSR, or was someone else in line? And if it had been Trotsky, how would he have changed the identity of the Soviet Union? Would there have been a cult of personality, or any purges?

Quote from: InfiniteMonkey
I love alt-hist, but I've never read Turtledove, partly for his fixation on the Civil War (something I really wish we Americans could find a way to stop obsessing about).

Yeah, I think his book "The Guns of the South" was held up in class as an example of bad Alt Hist; AK-47s in the Civil War made no plausible sense.

Most of the Turtledove I've read I do not consider Alt Hist. Alien invasion or high magic in World War II is not history but pure fantasy, in my opinion. I did like Days of Infamy, where the Japanese follow the bombing of Pearl Harbor with a ground invasion.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2013, 07:05:13 PM by Prophet »

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eytanz

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Reply #11 on: November 09, 2013, 08:31:46 PM
Quote from: InfiniteMonkey
I love alt-hist, but I've never read Turtledove, partly for his fixation on the Civil War (something I really wish we Americans could find a way to stop obsessing about).

Yeah, I think his book "The Guns of the South" was held up in class as an example of bad Alt Hist; AK-47s in the Civil War made no plausible sense.


Well, it's been a long time since I read it, but it was explained by time travel, right? Which, strictly speaking makes it less alternate history and more altered history. But it's no more (or less) implausible than any other story with history-altering time travel.



lowky

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Reply #12 on: November 10, 2013, 12:37:36 AM
I love alt-hist, but I've never read Turtledove, partly for his fixation on the Civil War (something I really wish we Americans could find a way to stop obsessing about).

I think part of the obsession over it is that many of the issues were never resolved.  The Civil War (and succession of the southern states) was not so much about slavery as it was about states' rights vs federal rights.  If anything we have only concentrated more power with the federal government since the north won the war.  I (being from MI) have worked with people from the south, and many of them still are bitter about it.  I had a roommate when I worked at Yellowstone, with a 62 year old, who felt that Lincoln should have been brought up on war crimes.  Which means most likely his Dad was born right after the end of the war, and his grandfather would have been involved in it.  current Generation is only about 5 generations out, not that surprising that there are people who are still intrigued/obsessing over it.    Turtledove would be same generation as my roommate was.  though his parents were Romanian immigrants by way of Canada to California, so wouldn't have been much influenced by the civil war. 


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Reply #13 on: November 10, 2013, 01:16:12 AM
I love alt-hist, but I've never read Turtledove, partly for his fixation on the Civil War (something I really wish we Americans could find a way to stop obsessing about).

Dude, we've only got like 250 years of history as a country, and that is about the biggest thing we ever went through, nationally speaking.  It was brewing from the very first days of the union and its resolution changed the nature of the states' relationships to each other and to the federal government forever.  PLUS it's a massive guilt trip because of the significant portion of our population that is here in part because the ancestors of another portion of our population were gigantic assholes.  It's a pretty defining moment in our history.  I mean, sure, I'm not terribly into Civil War stories myself, but you might as well ask a plane crash survivor to stop obsessing over their trauma.  It's gonna be a while yet, I imagine.



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Reply #14 on: November 10, 2013, 04:03:56 PM
I love alt-hist, but I've never read Turtledove, partly for his fixation on the Civil War (something I really wish we Americans could find a way to stop obsessing about).

Dude, we've only got like 250 years of history as a country, and that is about the biggest thing we ever went through, nationally speaking.  It was brewing from the very first days of the union and its resolution changed the nature of the states' relationships to each other and to the federal government forever.  PLUS it's a massive guilt trip because of the significant portion of our population that is here in part because the ancestors of another portion of our population were gigantic assholes.  It's a pretty defining moment in our history.  I mean, sure, I'm not terribly into Civil War stories myself, but you might as well ask a plane crash survivor to stop obsessing over their trauma.  It's gonna be a while yet, I imagine.

Much like asking the Japanese to stop obsessing over WWII in their expressions of art. How much cinema and manga and other things reflect their interaction with The Bomb and all its fallout?

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InfiniteMonkey

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Reply #15 on: November 10, 2013, 04:52:04 PM
Much like asking the Japanese to stop obsessing over WWII in their expressions of art. How much cinema and manga and other things reflect their interaction with The Bomb and all its fallout?

The difference is that the Japanese are working in metaphor. You can make the same claim about many of the "historical" (i.e., samurai) films. The past is used to critique the present. That's a little different (and more creative) than what we do here.



Prophet

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Reply #16 on: November 10, 2013, 09:22:48 PM
Quote from: InfiniteMonkey
I love alt-hist, but I've never read Turtledove, partly for his fixation on the Civil War (something I really wish we Americans could find a way to stop obsessing about).
Yeah, I think his book "The Guns of the South" was held up in class as an example of bad Alt Hist; AK-47s in the Civil War made no plausible sense.

Well, it's been a long time since I read it, but it was explained by time travel, right? Which, strictly speaking makes it less alternate history and more altered history. But it's no more (or less) implausible than any other story with history-altering time travel.
I think you are right. I guess I meant realistic, not plausible. Sorry, wrong choice of words.

I think part of the obsession over it is that many of the issues were never resolved.  The Civil War (and succession of the southern states) was not so much about slavery as it was about states' rights vs federal rights.
And another part of the obsession is arguing over which issues caused the war, and which are attributed to the war afterwards. There is still debate over whether that assertion is true. Or was the argument was made post-war, to give a more palatable justification.

I see several stories people have mentioned that sound awfully interesting. Any other good ones with creative historical changes?

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