What subgenres/types of story immediately make you say "Nope. NEXT!"

[Scattercat]

Lewis specifically wrote them as allegories, though, and intended them to have moral teachings.  Someone like Mieville, whose politics certainly infuse his own writing (and who is no less open about it on a personal level), but who doesn't cloak them in metaphor or expect the untutored to be drawn in by them won't have the same reaction from readers.  You don't get surprised afterward by Mieville; if you read his books, you are immediately aware of his position in re: Marxism, anarchism, etc., and if you weren't already in favor of anarcho-communistic political arrangements, you're unlikely to be convinced by the books themselves.

So it's not that people are putting down the books because of Lewis' worldview; he *explicitly* wrote them to be Christian allegories and intended them as such.  Compare that to an author who happens to be Christian and whose worldview strongly influences his writing.  Let's go with Tolkien, since he and Lewis are often lumped together anyway as contemporaries.  The War of the Rings is unquestionably written from the point of view of a Christian, and themes of sacrifice and redemption and etc. are positively everywhere in them.  There's even a blatant Christophany in Gandalf's fall and triumphant return.  But Tolkien doesn't get nearly as much blowback because he wasn't setting out to write a Christian allegory; those are just symbols and themes that were potent to him.  You can see the influences if you read the books with foreknowledge of the author's predilections, but you can't cross out "Gandalf" and write in "Jesus" and have his lines make a lick of sense.

[Fenrix]

I get annoyed because people seem to reject Lewis out of hand merely for his beliefs. It's like, "Oh. Lewis! He was a Christian and therefore his writing is propagandist, dangerous and unworthy of your time." Obviously, I'm exaggerating for effect but Lewis cops it a lot more than other writers, with other views, who are equally "subversive".

It is always disappointing when readers engage and criticize the author and not the work. Tearing down the author merely serves as a mechanism to try to spoil the enjoyment of the work by others.

On a more important note, Kibitzer, is your aversion to Oz due to Baum's works or the spate of responses (e.g. Wicked) and mashups to said works?

[DKT]

For my part, I love Narnia - and I still think some of the books are great fantasy tales. (There are also parts of The Last Battle that I think are fascinating, while other parts are problematic.)

That they are allegorical never bothered me - but I guess that might be because I was the choir? I do understand it bothers a significant number of readers.

[Jompier]

Cory Doctorow

I'm curious about this one. I've only read a little bit of Cory Doctorow (Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom, and Eastern Standard Tribe) but I kinda liked what I read. The main characters seem a little over the top "cool", but really no different from other similar characters (e.g., Hiro Protagonist)

[Jompier]

I have a terrible time reading reading:

1. Space Opera
2. Alternate History (if it bored me the first time …)
3. Comedic Science Fiction (the only exception might be Douglas Adams)

I guess I like my science fiction to be flat and affectless, about the science and curiosity. I was tempted to add another sub genre like "thriller" science fiction simply because I hate it when an otherwise interesting book gets marred by some ham-fisted, lame conspiracy or tension. I've abandoned books by Ben Bova, Kim Stanley Robinson, and Gentry Lee simply because the "thriller" elements that have been added are so contrived I just can bear to slog my way through them.

[Listener]

Cory Doctorow

I'm curious about this one. I've only read a little bit of Cory Doctorow (Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom, and Eastern Standard Tribe) but I kinda liked what I read. The main characters seem a little over the top "cool", but really no different from other similar characters (e.g., Hiro Protagonist)

I think the thing that bothers me most about Doctorow (I know I'm not SonofSpermcube but I have issues with him too) besides his overly-cool MCs is that his endings aren't, for lack of a better term, "good". Which is to say, the stories come to an end because that's where they end, but they never leave me feeling like the story is over. And not in a good way.

It's similar to how I felt at the end of The Scar by China Mieville. Spoiler -- use rot13.com to descramble:

Ng gur raq, Neznqn qbrfa'g npghnyyl tb gb gur Fpne. Gurl whfg yvfgra gb Urqevtnyy gryy gur fgbel bs jung ur fnj, naq gura gurl ghea onpx, naq nyy guvf jnf sbe anhtug. Gur Ybiref qba'g svther bhg jung gurl jnagrq gb svther bhg, Qbhy qbrfa'g trg pybfher, naq Oryyvf jnf hygvzngryl xvqanccrq sbe abguvat.

Though I love The Scar, the ending drove me CRAZY. I don't need a happy or sad ending; I just need closure.

[kibitzer]

On a more important note, Kibitzer, is your aversion to Oz due to Baum's works or the spate of responses (e.g. Wicked) and mashups to said works?

That is a really good question. I'll give you some possible reasons but I don't know if they're the whole answer

 I guess to me, they're a special case of the fairy tale thing. I have a bit of a problem with people using other people's worlds -- it feels a bit like fan fic. Now again, that's not to say it can't be done well and both Pseudopod and PodCastle have published good examples of how it CAN work.

(hat tip to Scattercat)

Another reason is, I never saw The Wizard of Oz until last year. Yes, I mean the 1939 film, not Wicked nor the Sam Raimi film. It's not as deeply embedded in my psyche as everyone who saw the film growing up. When I saw it last year, I wasn't charmed, I was weirded out. Seemed like a bad trip to me. It's funny because you can't avoid blowbacks and references to Oz in everything from The Simpsons to the Bill Willingham "Fables" series but still, it just never meant that much to me.

[Scattercat]

FWIW, the "bad trip" aspect is part of what I like about Oz.  It's a very vivid and surreal place.

Even I never bonded with the original Wizard of Oz book.  As I mentioned in the Tiktok thread at Podcastle, my first love was Rinkitink, which isn't nearly as trippy.  (Still quite odd, mind you.) 

@Listener
I don't think you'll like much of anything by Mieville, then; the man is nearly allergic to closure.  Even when he wraps things up at the end, he tends to subvert it somehow.  (Most elegantly, perhaps, in "Kraken," where pnabavpnyyl, gur erfbyhgvba bs gur cybg vf gung gur ragver obbx arire npghnyyl unccrarq va yvarne ernyvgl.  [ROT13 for spoilers.])

[Fenrix]

On a more important note, Kibitzer, is your aversion to Oz due to Baum's works or the spate of responses (e.g. Wicked) and mashups to said works?

That is a really good question. I'll give you some possible reasons but I don't know if they're the whole answer

 I guess to me, they're a special case of the fairy tale thing. I have a bit of a problem with people using other people's worlds -- it feels a bit like fan fic. Now again, that's not to say it can't be done well and both Pseudopod and PodCastle have published good examples of how it CAN work.

(hat tip to Scattercat)

Another reason is, I never saw The Wizard of Oz until last year. Yes, I mean the 1939 film, not Wicked nor the Sam Raimi film. It's not as deeply embedded in my psyche as everyone who saw the film growing up. When I saw it last year, I wasn't charmed, I was weirded out. Seemed like a bad trip to me. It's funnt because you can't avoid blowbacks and references to Oz in everything from The Simpsons to the Bill Willingham "Fables" series but still, it just never meant that much to me.

Have you read any of the books?

[Fenrix]

Hah! I just listened to the episode of Toasted Cake you guest hosted. It's quite relevant to the discussion here. 

http://toastedcake.com/2014/01/toasted-cake-97-making-friends-by-gary-cuba-read-by-graeme-dunlop.html

Also, nice job with the meta-commentary subverting the format of the podcast surrounding the story about subverting the format of the faerie story.

[adrianh]

Are there certain topics, styles, or subgenres you just can't stand? 

I seem to be alone in this thread in saying... none ;-)

I can't think of any sub-genre that I universally dislike.

Sure - I'm less likely to look at some. All of the rapture-fic I've started has been left unfinished. But because it's been terribly written - not because of the topic area. I'm an atheist and still love Narnia!

I like the books I like. I stop reading the ones I don't. Those categories don't really seem to align well with (sub)genre groupings.

[Varda]

I still have a soft spot in my heart for Narnia, but I was aware of their allegorical underpinnings from the time I first read them (having been raised in an evangelical Christian family, it was considered a feature of course). Even though I've shifted away from many of the assumptions embedded in the Narnia books, the nostalgia seems enough to sustain my enjoyment these days (and hey, they are well-written children's lit). I can appreciate what a big turnoff it would be to discover the allegory afterwards. That strikes me as creepy, like realizing someone only befriended you in order to proselytize to you.

My story turnoffs are:
- Anything overly sentimental, in a sickly-sweet sort of way, unless it's really well executed. I don't mind being emotionally manipulated, but the moment I see the strings, I get annoyed. (Example: pretty much everything Mike Resnick has ever written. Ken Liu occasionally falls on the wrong side of the line for me, but I usually tend to enjoy Ken's sentimental stuff because his execution is so good that it doesn't feel cheap.)

- Faithful Pet (esp dog and/or cat) stories, particularly when the pet dies at the end, a la Old Yeller. Okay, it's basically a sub-sub-genre of "sentimental", but this one really annoys me because it's usually SO blatantly cheap and manipulative. (Example: I'm thinking of a couple Resnick stories again...)

- Male power fantasies. This would be anything that reminds me vaguely of a video game plot, where the point seems to be setting up obstacles just so we can admire what a badass Mr. Manly Muscle Man is as he punches, shoots, and karate-chops through anything that stands in his way. (Example: Conan stories, and some golden-age SF)

[kibitzer]

Have you read any of the books?

Nope. NEXT!

[Listener]

@Listener
I don't think you'll like much of anything by Mieville, then; the man is nearly allergic to closure.  Even when he wraps things up at the end, he tends to subvert it somehow.  (Most elegantly, perhaps, in "Kraken," where pnabavpnyyl, gur erfbyhgvba bs gur cybg vf gung gur ragver obbx arire npghnyyl unccrarq va yvarne ernyvgl.  [ROT13 for spoilers.])

Interestingly, I actually like Mieville a lot because his books aren't easy to read and his worldbuilding is brilliant. That said, I still haven't figured out WTF happened at the end of Embassytown.

[lowky]

@Listener
I don't think you'll like much of anything by Mieville, then; the man is nearly allergic to closure.  Even when he wraps things up at the end, he tends to subvert it somehow.  (Most elegantly, perhaps, in "Kraken," where pnabavpnyyl, gur erfbyhgvba bs gur cybg vf gung gur ragver obbx arire npghnyyl unccrarq va yvarne ernyvgl.  [ROT13 for spoilers.])

Interestingly, I actually like Mieville a lot because his books aren't easy to read and his worldbuilding is brilliant. That said, I still haven't figured out WTF happened at the end of Embassytown.

Haven't made it through anything, don't care for Mieville at all.

[Leslianne]

I have two that I'm getting pretty tired of lately:

1. stories where the main conflict is how terrifying it is to talk to girls/that one girl.

2. stories that are ostensibly science fiction, but the happy ending is that the person stops doing quite so much of that awful science and spends more time with romance or their family.

[SonofSpermcube]

I have two that I'm getting pretty tired of lately:

1. stories where the main conflict is how terrifying it is to talk to girls/that one girl.

2. stories that are ostensibly science fiction, but the happy ending is that the person stops doing quite so much of that awful science and spends more time with romance or their family.

What's an example of each?