Author Topic: PodCastle Essay: We Have Always Fought  (Read 26008 times)

Ocicat

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on: July 15, 2014, 04:56:46 PM
PodCastle Essay: We Have Always Fought: Challenging the “Woman, Cattle and Slaves" Narrative

Written and read by Kameron Hurley

Originally published at A Dribble of Ink, edited by Aidan Moher. Read along here!

I’m going to tell you a story about llamas. It will be like every other story you’ve ever heard about llamas: how they are covered in fine scales; how they eat their young if not raised properly; and how, at the end of their lives, they hurl themselves – lemming-like- over cliffs to drown in the surging sea. They are, at heart, sea creatures, birthed from the sea, married to it like the fishing people who make their livelihood there.

We at PodCastle are very proud to present a little piece of extra fantasy non-fiction. We don’t know how often we’ll present essays to you, but this one felt like it was worth doing something we haven’t really done before. We hope it challenges you. We hope it inspires you. We hope it makes you think. As always, thank you for listening.

(And don’t worry – We’ll have a fantasy fiction story for you in the next few days!)

Listen to the essay!
« Last Edit: September 03, 2014, 11:12:20 PM by eytanz »



Varda

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Reply #1 on: July 15, 2014, 05:21:55 PM
I just want to say I'm so excited Podcastle recorded this essay that I just shouted audibly at my computer screen and my husband thought I'd won the lottery or something. Kameron Hurley's essay was a really important read for me, both as a reader and a writer. My sincerest gratitude to the Powers That Be for running it. <3

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DKT

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Reply #2 on: July 15, 2014, 05:38:03 PM
 :D

It's an essay that's stayed with me since I read it last year, and challenged and inspired me. Hope it does the same for others.

I don't know if we'll do other essays on PodCastle or not - it'd be kind of cool, I think - and God knows there's plenty of material to choose from. We're setting bar pretty high with this one, though!


Scattercat

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Reply #3 on: July 15, 2014, 10:09:26 PM
This is excellent.



AncientWire

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Reply #4 on: July 16, 2014, 01:56:35 AM
This essay was wonderful.



ttt

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Reply #5 on: July 16, 2014, 08:22:38 AM
Like, that was a waste of 32 minutes.



eytanz

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Reply #6 on: July 16, 2014, 08:32:56 AM
Like, that was a waste of 32 minutes.

Moderator note: Please review the forum's rules before posting. If you dislike an episode, be it a story, or in this case, an essay, feel free to post feedback and criticism. Or if you really want to, feel free posting saying you didn't like it without feedback. But do so in a respectful manner.

That said, if you listened to this essay and didn't think it was a good use of your time, you're probably right, for the same reason that an algebra class is a waste of time for people who don't know basic arithmetic.



Pippin

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Reply #7 on: July 16, 2014, 01:31:07 PM
I have been listening for over a hundred episodes, and stalking the comments for almost as long, but this is the first time I've been moved to actually comment. I started the episode while focused on other things and twenty minutes later I had restarted it and so I could sit down and really focus. There is a powerful message here, and since I work with kids I can't wait to play this to them and pass that message along.



Richard Babley

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Reply #8 on: July 17, 2014, 05:33:23 AM
I'd like to start off by saying that the narraration was excellent.  It is very hard to bring an essay to life the way this narrarator did.

I believe that essays, more than many types of literature are meant to be discussed, so I'll start the discussion.  Please keep in mind that because I am raising points, it does not mean that I disagree with the message of the essay, but rather because I would like to discuss several specifics, and that I am not an editor, so I am not exposed to hundreds of stories every week that get rejected (Honestly I read "what we don't want" in submissions and think "really?  Who would send that in...)

This was a very powerful essay about women's role in literature, and although is hard some points that I absolutly agree with, there are some areas that I didn't like.  First of all, in an essay about truth in literature, the phrase "Google it" took me out of the essay completely.  Googling anything will give you any results that you want or better said, the results that google thinks you want.  There is very little fact checking on many google sources.

Second, it seemed to me that the majority of examples the author used were based on violence (women soldiers, shooting guns, violent revolutionaries, punching bag) and that we define women roles compared to men in literature as an ability or inability to do violence.  Violence being more often than not a representation of power.  My point would be, isn't too much entertainment in general based on violence.  Crime/rape shows, war, fighting is all over television and in literature.  We a redefining our Llamas, all llamas, as violent individuals, because we find (or are told to find) violence in general entertaining.

Third, here's a sentence that I have heard: 

"My daughter will learn self defense because there are many men that will take advantage of her."

In my mind, literature that defines a typical role of men as violent is not only damaging to woman as powerless, but men as violent devients.  Women are not the only sex that acts the roles set out for them in entertainment.



Moritz

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Reply #9 on: July 17, 2014, 06:37:05 AM
First of all thank you for doing this episode. One of the reasons I love escape artists' three podcasts is that they are not the same kind of story all over again but come from different sub genres, different authors, different styles - it exposes me to science fiction, fantasy, and horror that I otherwise wouldn't have read/listened to and therefore broadens my horizon. This essay also kind of broadened my horizon, and I didn't mind the "interruption" of podcasts to bring me this.

As for the content of the essay itself, I generally agree with the author and think she points out some very, very important issues. I do agree with some of Richard Babley's criticism, especially point two concerning the violence. I, as a man, always thought it a virtue of women that in the general Western narrative stayed out of violence. When in my home country, a women fought at court to be a member of the fighting units in the army, I thought it was silly that she wanted to learn how to kill (well, I was about to be drafted and thought: really? she wants to go there out of free will where I have to? fine, take my place...)

There are a couple of points I didn't like about the essay, though I guess most of them are nitpicky:

a) the llama metaphor doesn't quite work, and it's a bit too long. This is because the author basically makes two statements:
1. women are systematically written out of history/ stories or their roles are rewritten.
I agree with her that this is true, and this is basically what her llama story says. In fact, the same holds true for other groups in societies, like people of color, ethnic and religious minorities, sexual minorities, etc., the only big difference that women are not a minority.
2. women are often accomplices to this rewriting
This point was the most interesting for me, because frankly, point 1. was rather obvious to me, because I identify with at least one of the minority groups. The fact that female writers can be as bad in reproducing stereotypes is something I know subconsciously - I mean, I have read all of Stephanie Meyer's Twilight books... - but it was interesting to have it spelled out again. Of course, this is not part of the llama story, because it would have meant that fluffy child llamas would also imagine all llamas to be scaly cannibals. So basically the llama story didn't really work for me.

b) I have problems with someone who talks a lot about the social construction of the world using the term The Truth.

c) Finally, one remark about "can you imagine that 4 out of 10 freedom fighters are female" - I think this depends a lot on your cultural background. When I grew up, our post offices had this, which according to the names is 2/3 female: http://www.derwesten.de/img/incoming/origs4616696/0243732408-w552-h2700-/RAF-Fahndungsplakat-RAF.jpg

But I guess these three points are just nitpicks and don't really criticise the core of the essay.



Scattercat

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Reply #10 on: July 17, 2014, 11:04:43 AM
Quote
Of course, this is not part of the llama story, because it would have meant that fluffy child llamas would also imagine all llamas to be scaly cannibals. So basically the llama story didn't really work for me.

Or perhaps would think, "I'm not very scaly or cannibalistic; what's wrong with me?"



Varda

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Reply #11 on: July 17, 2014, 12:16:02 PM
As for the content of the essay itself, I generally agree with the author and think she points out some very, very important issues. I do agree with some of Richard Babley's criticism, especially point two concerning the violence. I, as a man, always thought it a virtue of women that in the general Western narrative stayed out of violence. When in my home country, a women fought at court to be a member of the fighting units in the army, I thought it was silly that she wanted to learn how to kill (well, I was about to be drafted and thought: really? she wants to go there out of free will where I have to? fine, take my place...)

I would just note that being put on a pedestal and praised as the historically less-violent sex is not desirable, either. That's still a stereotype, especially since the historical fact of the matter is that some women were and are violent and bloodthirsty soldiers, too. If women seem nicer, it's only because we're taught from a young age to approach conflict indirectly and punished for being too loud or rude in ways that boys aren't. From my perspective, I'm a lot nicer than I really have the inclination to be, were I permitted to just share my unvarnished opinion. But from your perspective, it might seem as if women are just *naturally nicer*.

Same goes with women and violence. It's an illusion that women are somehow naturally more moral in this area. And we need more stories about bad, violent women too, women representing the full span of human evil just the way our male villains do.

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Richard Babley

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Reply #12 on: July 17, 2014, 02:32:03 PM
I would just note that being put on a pedestal and praised as the historically less-violent sex is not desirable, either.

Not in defense of Moritz's comment, but I would have to say that this large depends on perspective.  The choice whether one wants to do violence is largely personal regardless of sex.  I find that pacifists are often stereotyped as weak individuals simply because they are unwilling to do violence.  This is also false and not a desirable stereotype either.  I praise nonviolence/resistance in any individual, but not praise a sex in general for it.  My original point was that I didn't want power and strength to be interchangeable with violence in literature regardless of sex.

The second part of your comment is a rather long and sensetive discussion into genetics/epigentics and nature vs nurture and statisics that aren't possible to do without proper controls and would end up in rampent unprofessional speculation based on unreliable animal models.  

I'd suggest that the forum not go that path  ;)   8)



Varda

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Reply #13 on: July 17, 2014, 03:06:55 PM
Not in defense of Moritz's comment, but I would have to say that this large depends on perspective.  The choice whether one wants to do violence is largely personal regardless of sex.  I find that pacifists are often stereotyped as weak individuals simply because they are unwilling to do violence.  This is also false and not a desirable stereotype either.  I praise nonviolence/resistance in any individual, but not praise a sex in general for it.  My original point was that I didn't want power and strength to be interchangeable with violence in literature regardless of sex.

Well, I agree there's a conversation to be had about violent themes and pacifism, but that's not really relevant to the specific context of Kameron Hurley's essay, no? :)

My point is that as long as we have stories that address the problem of war and violence, consistently shuffling off women into the pacifist role is sexist and historically inaccurate. This is true even of stories that celebrate pacifism and nonviolence. We need stories about the men who stayed home and took care of the children and held society together while the women went off to war. We need stories about women going to war for reasons of pride, or anger, or ego and the consequences thereof--more complex than "well obviously wimminz shouldn't be in war because raaaaape" or "they'll be too busy having their periods and tempting the men with their boobs to make good soldiers".

For an example, Seanan McGuire wrote a particularly outstanding military SF story featuring women in WDSF ("Each to Each"), which also managed to be critical of the war machine itself. I also thought Podcastle's "Feed Me the Bones of Our Saints" earlier this year was an outstanding story about women, war, and violence that strayed outside the box.

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DKT

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Reply #14 on: July 17, 2014, 04:26:29 PM
Re: Google it. That was actually a slight addition to the text, because we can't hyperlink audio. But this is the link Hurley suggested Googling. When I get home and have access to do so, I'll update the page to reflect that too. 

t seemed to me that the majority of examples the author used were based on violence (women soldiers, shooting guns, violent revolutionaries, punching bag) and that we define women roles compared to men in literature as an ability or inability to do violence.  Violence being more often than not a representation of power.  My point would be, isn't too much entertainment in general based on violence.  Crime/rape shows, war, fighting is all over television and in literature.  We a redefining our Llamas, all llamas, as violent individuals, because we find (or are told to find) violence in general entertaining.


There's definitely a big discussion to have on whether or not there's a necessity for violence, as well as the nature of violence, and if there's too much violence in our entertainment. But I don't see this particularly essay discussing those topics. "We Have Always Fought" instead is focusing on women being written out, or erased from the violent (traditionally viewed as masculine) parts of history, and pointing out that viewpoint inaccurate.


benjaminjb

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Reply #15 on: July 17, 2014, 06:01:25 PM
I also think this was excellent. I remember reading it at Moher's place, but it seemed even more interesting having it read to me. That said, I welcome debate and discussion about it.

(That said, "Google it" was said in reference to one particular link that, as DKT pointed out, would be hard to link to in audio; that said, I also generally agree with the idea that all research, especially internet research, needs to be careful about avoiding biasing your info. Which, I take it, is part of the lesson of this essay.)

The positive stereotype is still a stereotype
Now that I've heard it again, this essay connects in all sorts of ways to other discussions about representation. Like, I remember going to a lecture once on "The Enemy," where the professor pointed out how enemies in narrative have to have some positive qualities to make defeating them worthwhile and difficult. (This is especially true in conspiracy narratives, where those Enemies are keeping us down.) So, in 19th century anti-Toms--the pro-slavery novels that were written to combat the message of Uncle Tom's Cabin--you get lots of cultural positives attached to black people: they are so innocent and trusting. Or, for another example, look at a lot of the post-Civil War literature that portrays black people as dangerous and wild (all negatives) but also strong and athletic (all positives). The point of the lecture on the Enemy or this article isn't whether a depiction is positive or negative, but how limiting that depiction can be.

(Neil deGrasse Tyson had an excellent observation on that point in regard to, iirc, Larry Byrd and Michael Jordan and how they were talked about while Tyson was growing up: Byrd was described as a careful student of the game, a guy who had to put his smarts to work; Jordan got described as a "natural athlete," a guy who was just great at the game without thinking or working. Sure, both "student of the game" and "natural athlete" sound positive, but they're both limiting descriptions: they limit how we see these particular people; and they're part of a larger system that limits how we see whole groups of people.)

Feminism helps men
I also want to stress the idea that an essay like this--and the discussion around it--isn't just for the happiness of women. As many people have noted, narrowing the options of other people also narrows your own. I could go into the toxic stew of gender and race divisions in the 19th-century American South (an area I spent a lot of time on in grad school); but I'm also reminded of a blogpost written by a male ex-pickup artist. This was a guy who bought into the cultural narrative that men should act a certain way and be attracted to certain women. And so he spent his time working towards that goal (sex with lots of women) and achieving it and being miserable.

I'm paraphrasing, but I remember he said something about making a pass at some woman who was attractive according to pickup artist standards, but who he didn't connect to in any other way. He narrowed his life choices according to this over-arching narrative of what masculinity was and what femininity was. Sure, he eventually realized that this wasn't the way to live; but imagine a whole society constructed around that narrative. (Or: walk outside. Ta-da!) Imagine a whole society where the narrative is so ingrained that you think it's the right way to be--where you don't even realize that you've bought into an ideology because it was purchased for you a long time before you were born.

("Honey, did we put 'patriarchy' on the baby shower registry? Because everyone got it for us.")

History is weird and big enough for all of us
I was just reading a 1960s comic book called Dial H for Hero and I got thrown out of the story when a bank closed for the day at 3pm. A bank that closes at 3pm? Ridiculous! Meanwhile, a super-genius boy who solves crimes by turning into super-heroes while keeping his identity secret from everyone--well, that's just the way things are.

It's always interesting, to me, to find what presuppositions I hold about people and the way things are that feel natural, but are really just historical constructs of a certain time. I mean, I grew up--and pretty much still am--a stereotype from a Woody Allen movie: New York, Jewish, Yiddish-compliant, middle class, left-liberal, good school, bagel-oriented, etc. Everyone around me pretty much fit into that category; and for most people, if you say "Jew," that's the image that pops: the Eastern European, mother-wishes-he-was-a-doctor Jew.

Which is why I loved learning about how radically Jewish demographics in America shifted over the years: up until the late 19th, if you went into a Jewish neighborhood, it wouldn't be Yiddish-speaking Ashkenazic Jews, but Sephardic Jews from Spain and Portugal speaking Ladino. Things in the past were different than they are today. And even today, things aren't the same all over: for fun, get an Ashkenaz and a Sephard into a room--along with an Ethiopian Jew and a Kaifeng Jew and a Cochin Jew--and ask them what "traditional Jewish food" is. Maybe--maybe!--they'll all agree on matzot, but otherwise, feh. (Idea for an article: "Jews have always fought over food.")

Which is a super-long way of saying that historical discovery/recovery seems like one of the best ways to challenge our current narratives, along with looking at how other people do things now. I would say that, as speculative fiction people, we could just invent something to challenge our presuppositions (c.f. Le Guin's Left Hand of Darkness and a society without gender), but history usually beats us to these things. Or rather: the stories we tell ourselves tend to limit our imaginations about what is possible. History, as stuff that seems impossible but really happened, is a good way to challenge our limits.



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Reply #16 on: July 17, 2014, 06:48:53 PM
I just typed a long reply and it got deleted.

Aha google it was a link!!!

No podcastle isn't too violent, nor is it senslessly violent like other forms of entertainment.  Violence is fine as long as it serves a worthy purpose

I'd like to see women marinalized in other typically male areas, not just war, take a larger role.

I was a little afraid that Dickens (where my name comes from) was marinalizing women too much, and then I remembered "Tale of Two Cities."

Madam Defarge is an overbearing heartless blood thirsty revolutionary that carries a knife and a gun and imposes beheadings.  That somehow made me happy.



Father Beast

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Reply #17 on: July 17, 2014, 10:51:14 PM
I find one of Moritz' observations enlightening.


2. women are often accomplices to this rewriting

Notably, the author herself.

In listening to this essay, I find that it is less about a conspiracy to marginalize women than a look into her own awakening and learning to think past the surface. By her own account, she used to feed into stereotypes and perpetuate them. It has taken time and thought for her to realize that she can, and probably should, do things differently.

The reality is, there have been women slave overseers, women slavers, women torturers. There have been men homemakers, men nurturers, men spinners. The fact that some professions tend to have a majority of one or the other doesn't change that.

Another reality is that some people think about the things they see and hear, and some people memorize some phrases and stick to them without thinking, and every variation in between. And this has always been the case.

As for myself, in my life I make a point of never referring to someone having a sexed role. They are not Truckers and Lady Truckers as the author suggested (and indeed, some people do say, just not me), they are all Truckers. that is not a woman Doctor and a male Nurse, that's a Doctor and a Nurse. Those aren't Prostitutes and male Prostitutes, Those are all Prostitutes. A little thing, maybe, but I don't get to choose for other people. Only for myself.

I call myself a man because I am full grown and constructed as a male. if I have tendencies which might be called "womanly" or "girlish", I recognize those are only things termed that way by my particular culture, location and time. Those designations have nothing to do with being actually male or female.

And finally, amidst all those stories about the scaly llamas that eat their young, there have always been llama herders who harvest the llamas for their hair and trust them to raise their own young.



ToooooMuchCoffeeMan

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Reply #18 on: July 18, 2014, 09:32:13 AM
This is elegantly stated, and well-read, but...well. There's no way to say this without sounding snide: I wonder how old the writer was when she wrote it. I'm on my 50-somethingth turn around the sun, and none of this would have been new to me thirty years ago.

I think the most recent thing I learned in this area that struck me as novel was the Bechdel Test.

So I don't know. Every generation has to discover certain things for themselves. And then strut around for awhile thinking they're geniuses until they get some experience and humility to match their intellection. And then, maybe, they can go on to break new ground.

All that said: thank you for publishing this. It's something that bears repeating.



Father Beast

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Reply #19 on: July 18, 2014, 10:10:39 AM

I think the most recent thing I learned in this area that struck me as novel was the Bechdel Test.


Ah yes, that test. I've been thinking about movies that probably fail. I think that Sleepless In Seattle fails to have two men talking about something other than a woman.



Moritz

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Reply #20 on: July 18, 2014, 11:07:35 AM
Another issue I had with the essay is that there is a bit too much "I" in it. Now, it's natural to make an essay personal and put personal stories in there. The part about how she reacted in crowds sounded a bit too self-congratulatory to me, as well as the bragging about handling guns. Before you get me wrong, it would have pissed me of as much when a man would have said it.



Varda

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Reply #21 on: July 18, 2014, 11:15:16 AM
So I don't know. Every generation has to discover certain things for themselves. And then strut around for awhile thinking they're geniuses until they get some experience and humility to match their intellection. And then, maybe, they can go on to break new ground.

This strikes me as a little unkind. None of us get to pick the cultural programming we're born into, and I don't think it's necessarily helpful to frame it so negatively when someone recognizes and gives up prejudice of any kind. We should celebrate and encourage this process at any age. Or, to put it another way, I like how XKCD puts it:



ETA: I'd also point out that if these things bear repeating by new generations, it may very well mean that the problem hasn't yet been fixed. May we all live to see the day when it really isn't news to the young that women were and are movers and shakers of history, because that means we finally taught it and modeled it right to begin with.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 12:03:02 PM by Varda »

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DKT

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Reply #22 on: July 18, 2014, 03:05:33 PM
And finally, amidst all those stories about the scaly llamas that eat their young, there have always been llama herders who harvest the llamas for their hair and trust them to raise their own young.

I don't remember the essay saying anything about llama herders. Was someone suggesting llama herders were all leading the llamas to the slaughtering house?

(I'm also uncomfortable with the herders analogy in general, because it reads like you're saying llamas = women, and the human herders = men, who take care of the less than human llamas, and also harvest them. Maybe you're not suggesting that, and you're suggesting the herders are also llamas, but then I don't get why we would differentiate the herders?)


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Reply #23 on: July 18, 2014, 03:49:55 PM
I'd like to see women marinalized in other typically male areas, not just war, take a larger role.

Great. So do we. This essay specifically dealt with women in combat roles and violent situations, though, so this isn't relevant here.

Part of the problem that necessitates essays like this (and videos and articles, as in the case of Anita Sarkeesian and others) is actually fairly well demonstrated in this comment thread. Conversations about women acting outside their socially/culturally prescribed roles are too often derailed by anecdotes, cookie-seeking by (real or imagined) allies, concern trolling, and #notallmen rabbit trails. It only adds white noise, not real content, to the conversation. As long as privileged voices try to shout down marginalized ones, the marginalized parties will continue having to hold the same conversation, forever and ever, amen. If that makes you uncomfortable, consider being part of the solution.

I like that the author notes her own complicity in misogynistic lines of thought. Self-awareness, frequent self-checking, and self-correction are signs of maturity. Blithely saying you never get it wrong, so obviously there's no reason to bring this up anymore, is not. Hurley doesn't let herself off the hook here, and neither should any of her readers. Especially when they're completely confident they're in the clear.

Men are trained to believe that their theories and anecdotal evidence outweigh the lived experiences of women. They don't. Sometimes you need to just sit down and truly listen to what's being said. Helpfully, this also applies when you are outside any marginalized group discussing their marginalization.

tl;dr: It's not always about you. Don't try to make it so.



InfiniteMonkey

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Reply #24 on: July 18, 2014, 04:07:48 PM
I read this in print a while ago, and frankly my reaction is "eh".

I don't DISagree with anything the writer says, but I generally don't enjoy being preached to. Even with things I agree with.

I also don't have any romantic notions about or attractions to revolutionary movements. So that didn't didn't really do anything for me either.

(edited - I left out a crucial modifier. Sorry, it was early... and I'm stressed.... and there are wolves outside...)
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 08:24:42 PM by InfiniteMonkey »