Author Topic: Politics in the US vs. politics in Europe  (Read 21591 times)

sirana

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on: May 20, 2007, 06:55:22 PM
In the "Second Rule" post Simon had some interesting thoughts about the recent discussions (especially the one in the tolerant/intolerant thread) being about issues (like abortion or homosexuality) that "Only Americans Talk About". 
He has deleted the original post, but I think the points he raised are still interesting to discuss.

As a German who regularily visits American forums and watches American TV I definitly have the feeling that issues like abortion and homosexuality come up way more often there than in the German forums I visit.
From what I gather from the American public debate these issues are very alive in politics. 
This is surprising to me because in Europe (or at least in Germany) politically these are pretty much nonissues. And it isn't because one side had clearly won the debate and everybody agrees on it, because the situation is not that much different than in the US.

Abortion is legal, but only if you have taken part in a so called "Schwangerschaftskonfliktberatung" (a consultation with special organisations) and if you are less than 12 weeks pregnant.
And while we have something like civil unions for gay people, they are not allowed to marry.

So there is still much room for heated discussions. But we simply don't have much of a public debate over it and there is not many people who are really unhappy with the status quo.

So I'd like to know if any of you have any ideas why these issues are subject of such fierce debate in the US, but not in Europe.
When I first read Simons post my first thought was that it had something to with the fact that people in the US are in average more religious and therefore care more about these questions, but that seems a bit too simplistic to me.       



wherethewild

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Reply #1 on: May 20, 2007, 08:04:00 PM
Just as a very naive idea and not based on hard facts. I´m happy to be disagreed with as it´s just my uneducated opinion (I´m no political scientist). Maybe it´s based on the idea of what moral (to horribly delve into a different thread briefly) each culture holds higher? Which maybe be based on the religon and maybe not.

In Germany in the last election it was joblessness and conservatism that were the greatest issues. Those were based on very real economic issues and a cultural bias against the extreme Right which has been educated into the society heavily since WWII.

In Australia politics is often run by the media, and it has a very big "cut down the tall poppy" type sydrome about it. This seems to be based on distrusting all in political office (which I could draw thin threads back to the founding of the country).

America has a lot of religious conservatism. Of course this has a bearing on it´s politics and what it considers important to discuss.


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Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #2 on: May 20, 2007, 08:55:22 PM
American politics are much more conservative than European politics. IIRC, our liberal political party is about in the same place as your mainstream conservative political party.



slic

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Reply #3 on: May 20, 2007, 11:22:29 PM
I believe it has a lot more to do with Political Chicanery - a sort of magician's distraction technique.  Most people I met in the States didn't really so much care if gay people got married or not, but those that did really cared, and made a big deal about it!  So, the Republican party pretty much got those people fired up, to distract pretty much everyone else from things like no national health care, the war in Iraq, and so on.



Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #4 on: May 20, 2007, 11:53:00 PM
A lot of that has to do with location, too, I think. Where were you in the States, Slic? Where do you live now?



ClintMemo

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Reply #5 on: May 21, 2007, 12:55:17 AM
Slic beat me to my point but I'll say it again anyway. :P

For a long time, abortion was an issue largely used to distract people from less emotional issues.  It was extremely effective.  Almost everyone has an opinion, both sides are close to equal in number and almost no on ever changes their mind.  Abortion is much more likely to get people's dander up than budget deficits.  Gay marriage is used the same way, but it is just more recent.

Elections in the US are not won by who attracts the most voters as much as it is who can convince their voters to actually show up and vote.  For example, the younger demographic, (voters under 25) largely were on the Democrats side in 2004.  Unfortunately, their turnout was very low, which is historically typical of that age group (also unfortunate). Campaigns are designed to do two things - convince your followers to show up and discourage the other's followers from showing up.

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Michael

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Reply #6 on: May 21, 2007, 01:44:26 AM
Slic and ClintMemo have it exactly right.  Politics of distraction--working up a fervor over "flag burning", "gay marriage" and other non-issues as an excuse to refuse to act on much more important things.  Interestingly, these issues only come up at election times, and not much action is ever taken on any of them.

It is a unique problem we have because our founding father (Jefferson) was (overly, INMHO) enamoured with the Roman Empire and modelled the United States on ancient Rome rather than more contemporary models.  No Parliament, a Sentate and "Peoples House", with an institutionalized 2 party system which (if you look at how it really works) absolutely prevents a 3rd party President.   With 2 parties and many more than 2 schools of political thought, these parties form coalitions within themselves to try to get 51% of the vote--balanced like a razor, even a few votes can shift the balance.  So neither side can afford to alienate even the crazy person vote.  And all elected Representatives are total whores to contributors to fund their ads--usually Corporate interests.  Very broken system. 
 
« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 01:46:29 AM by Michael »



slic

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Reply #7 on: May 21, 2007, 03:34:39 AM
A lot of that has to do with location, too, I think. Where were you in the States, Slic? Where do you live now?
I lived in Indianapolis, IN from 2002-06, I'm back in Canada now; specifically Waterloo, ON.



Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #8 on: May 21, 2007, 03:50:26 AM
Why, we're nearly neighbors. I'm in Iowa. :-)

I have a transsexual friend in Indianapolis who has specific reason to be afraid (often of physical harm) when people go off on anti-homosexual tangents. It may just be the groups she's interacting with, but she fairly frequently reports having overheard such rants on her livejournal (once a week or so).



sirana

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Reply #9 on: May 21, 2007, 06:48:05 AM
Slic and ClintMemo have it exactly right.  Politics of distraction--working up a fervor over "flag burning", "gay marriage" and other non-issues as an excuse to refuse to act on much more important things.  Interestingly, these issues only come up at election times, and not much action is ever taken on any of them.

I aggree with you that the politicians only pound on these issues because it emotionalizes their followers and "Gets-out-the-vote (tm)".
But the real question in my oppinion is, why do these sort of tactics work better in the US  (and are therefore used more often) than in Europe. I can assure you it is not because European politicians wouldn't stoop so low if they saw any chance that it would help them.
It is simply that in Europe these ideas don't really resonate with the public. Any politician who would by try to e.g. score political points by publicly vowing to end legalised abortion would alienate a big proportion of the electorate, even among the people that don't like abortion.
Why aren't Republicans who don't think abortions should be criminalized or who don't have made up their minds alienated by the pretty extreme statements nearly all of the Republican candidates have made about Roe v. Wade.
And similarliy, why don't feel Democrats, who don't like Gay marriage, alienated by Democratic politicians who publically declare they support it.

I am also not sure it really has something to do with the US system of gouvernment.
Britain for example has a (more or less) two party system as well, but abortion and homosexuals are not debated more than in Germany from what I gather.
And shouldn't it even be the other way round? In a system with two big parties every politicians has to be careful not to offend any potential voter (which includes the undecided). In a system with many small parties it should be easier, not more difficult, to have a single small party (let's call them the ANTI-Abortion-Party) that rants against abortion, because they only have to get a small portion of the votes and therefore don't have to fret about offending people.

And there are many countries that have two different chambers of parliament (Germany has the Bundestag, more or less a House of Representatives, and the Bundesrat, where the different regions are represented., Britain has the House of Lords and the House of Commons.)




sirana

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Reply #10 on: May 21, 2007, 06:58:04 AM
American politics are much more conservative than European politics. IIRC, our liberal political party is about in the same place as your mainstream conservative political party.

But the legal situation regarding abortion and gay marriage isn't that much more conservative than in many European states. In some states of the US abortion is legal even in the 24th week of the pregnancy, whereas in Germany it is only legal till the 12th week and you have to take part in a counseling programm.
And there are Civil Unions for gay people in some states of the US whereas e.g in Italy there is no Gay marriage and no civil unions.

And I think in the US there are both organisations and politicians on the left who would fight nail and teeth if somebody tried to e.g. limit abortions to the 12th week of the pregnancy.



Michael

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Reply #11 on: May 21, 2007, 11:00:29 AM
Sirana, this is interesting, because I am inclined to go in two directions on this discussion.

Quote
But the real question in my oppinion is, why do these sort of tactics work better in the US  (and are therefore used more often) than in Europe. I can assure you it is not because European politicians wouldn't stoop so low if they saw any chance that it would help them.


First, if we are going towards, Europeans are smarter than Americans, I think this is specious.  Like, "oh look at the fat Americans" and then the Germans and English started surfing the net while eating pizza as well, and got just as porcine.  Sometimes America leads a trend, but Europe catches up.  This is common local prejudice (things are better here--insert wherever here is) but it doesn't hold up well under scrutiny. 

I will mention I have lived in Germany (ex-military) and spent time in France.  My ex-wife was a German citizen, so I am not totally ignorant of Europe. 

Does not France now have a right wing President, ala George Bush, elected on head scarves for Muslim High school girls?

Second, The Parlimentary system is a relief valve for extremists on both the left and right.  If you are an issue voter you have a Party for your issue.  This is not true in America.  There is not a single "Green" in the American Congress--they led Germany for a decade. 

Germans get elected on issues like this:



A total non-issue here.
 
« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 11:30:56 AM by Michael »



sirana

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Reply #12 on: May 21, 2007, 11:40:59 AM
First, if we are going towards, Europeans are smarter than Americans, I think this is specious.  Like, "oh look at the fat Americans" and then the Germans and English started surfing the net while eating pizza as well, and got just as porcine.   

I was in no way trying to say that Europeans are smarter than Americans, because I know that is simply not true. And I wasn't saying that the way Europeans handle these issues (very little public debate about it) is in any way better than the  way the American public handles it.
What interested me was the fact that there obviously are differences in the way Europeans and Americans react to these topics and that there have to be reasons for it.

And I really wasn't trying to make this a post about right wing vs. left wing. Sarkozy is surely a right wing politician and while I wouldn't say he was "elected on head scarves for Muslim High School girls" Immigration and seperation of Church and State were definitly important issues in the French Presidential Election.
Furthermore, immigration and integration are topics that are as hotly debated (and as much used for political gain) in Europe as they are in the US. But abortion and homosexuality (and flagburning for that matter) are not.
These seem to be questions about which Americans have much stronger oppinions than Europeans and I am interested why that could be the case.


Second, The Parlimentary system is a relief valve for extremists on both the left and right.  If you are an issue voter you have a Party for your issue.  This is not true in America.  There is not a single "Green" in the American Congress--they led Germany for a decade.
I absolutely agree. We have currently Socialist or Communist parties in a number of Europeans countries and a couple of extremely right ones as well. But that should make it even more easy for any small party to make abortion or homosexuality their prime issue because they don't have to worry about offending anyone.
while we have some micro-parties in Germany that are centered around these (some small christian parties on the right and a feminist party on the left) they never even came close to getting the 5% that are necessary to get into the Bundestag.
As an aside, the Greens didn't "lead" Germany for a decade, they were junior partner in a coalition with the Social Democratic party and the Green party in Germany is much less extreme in almost all political views as the Green party in the USA.


 



Michael

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Reply #13 on: May 21, 2007, 12:19:31 PM
I live in one of the largest Cities in America, and it has only one major Newspaper--owned by Rupert Murdoch.  Murdoch also owns the dominant local Television Station, and of course the "Fox" news.  The massed media control this one single James Bond villian has on this country is unsettling... must be an evil Australian plot.   ;D  But I know he has major inroads in Britian as well.  (On the other hand Britian jumped into war as well--coincidence?) 

I am, of course, noting that Media sets the national debate and has been complicit in focusing on non-issues like these.  We have centralized our media ownership into a few hands, those hands have a point of view, and have no credible state supported equivilent of BBC.   


ClintMemo

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Reply #14 on: May 21, 2007, 12:36:56 PM
I think the centralized media ownership issue is worse than you say.
Fox is owned by Rupert Murdoch
ABC is owned by Disney
CBS is owned by Viacom
NBC is owned by GE

These are all big companies with their own business agendas.  There have been many stories swirling around for years about how company A suppressed a story because it went against the best interests of the news organization's owners.
Radio is just as bad. Most of the radio stations in my home town are owned by Clearchannel.  There is only one newspaper (owned by Ganette).


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Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #15 on: May 21, 2007, 01:24:49 PM
Ditto on the horrors of media monopolies.

I disagree that the presence of civil unions is only slightly more liberal than what you see in most American states. The states in the US that have civil unions are in the sharp minority, and many have laws specifically barring gay people from marriage.

In re: abortion, you're talking about Germany, yes? Does Germany have socialized medicine? If so, I'm not necessarily willing to say that abortion laws are more conservative than the ones here. There may be restrictions we don't have, but certainly in places like NZ, access to abortions is much more possible than access here. In the US, we have states where there are only one or two abortion clinics. I;m pretty sure there's at least one state where there aren't any abortion doctors in residence, due to threats on their lives, and people fly in from elsewhere to perform abortions a couple times a week. While abortion is legally guaranteed without as many strings, it can be practically very difficult to obtain, depending on where the woman lives and how much money she has.

Also, Europe's not really a monolith in the way it deals with these issues. I'm pretty sure there are European countries that have more liberal attitudes toward gay marriage and abortion than Germany does. Spain, for instance, seems to permit gay marriage -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_Spain. Switzerland has neither any reason requirements, nor any gestational limit -- http://www.reproductiverights.org/pub_fac_abortion_laws.html.

(Meaning that it seems to me it's a little more precise to ask: "Why don't these issues have legs in Germany?")
« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 01:30:27 PM by palimpsest »



sirana

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Reply #16 on: May 21, 2007, 02:21:57 PM
Also, Europe's not really a monolith in the way it deals with these issues. I'm pretty sure there are European countries that have more liberal attitudes toward gay marriage and abortion than Germany does. Spain, for instance, seems to permit gay marriage -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_Spain. Switzerland has neither any reason requirements, nor any gestational limit -- http://www.reproductiverights.org/pub_fac_abortion_laws.html.
(Meaning that it seems to me it's a little more precise to ask: "Why don't these issues have legs in Germany?")

I am mainly arguing from the German perspective because obviously that is the one I am most familiar with.
Regarding gay marriage you are right. There are three countries in Europe that allow gay marriage (Belgium, Netherlands, Spain), a few that don't allow any partnerships (Italy, Poland) and the big majority has some or other form of civil unions.
So the situation is all in all more liberal on gay marriage in Europe than in the US.

But my main point was not that the legal situation in Europe is as conservative as in the US, my main point was that Americans care more about both abortion and gay marriage than Europeans do.
And this is not only true in Germany, this is true all over Europe. While there are occasional minor discussions about both these issues in European countries as well, I can only think of no country where they are as heatily debated as in the US.

And I believe that the different legal situation is not the sole reason for this discrepancy.



Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #17 on: May 21, 2007, 02:49:12 PM
It's probably not the sole reason.

I would make the argument, though, that -- at least for people on the left -- some of them are not fighting because they're more or less satisfied.

I mean, I support same sex marriage. If civil unions have to be imposed because marriage is a religious word, then I really have no idea why the government is giving marriages at all. I'm an atheist; why is it less offensive for me to be married officially, when it's a religious institution, than it would be for my gay friends to be married? I'd be happy with the government just giving civil unions, and having marriages only granted by churches.

Likewise, I support abortion on demand without apology.

But if I had some abortion rights, and some right to get married, and no one actively trying to take them away from me, I can see where I would shut up and get to worrying about other things in life.

And since more people in your country are what we'd call liberal, there may be a larger number of people who have reason to be placid.

Certainly that can't be the whole reason why there's less of a fuss in Germany, but I'd submit that's potentially part of it. What's your media like? For that matter, what are your hot button issues?



FNH

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Reply #18 on: May 21, 2007, 08:37:25 PM
Speaking as a Brit, I think there is general apathy here in relation to politics.  We have been described as a nation of shop keepers.  If that means insular and self concerned, then I think it's accurate.  It would take something very extraordinary to get people to talk politics in a pub or on a lunch break.

Football (soccer) seems to rate a lot higher on most peoples agenda than any political consideration.

This is a generalisation of course, and entirely my opinion.


Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #19 on: May 21, 2007, 11:24:06 PM
On the topic of the differences between the ways people of various nations conceive of politics, an essay by James Trimarco (author of "How Lonesome a Life without Nerve Gas" -- http://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/2007/06/essay_third200706?currentPage=1

It was published in Vanity Fair.



wakela

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Reply #20 on: May 22, 2007, 03:50:39 AM
Quote
I think the centralized media ownership issue is worse than you say.
Fox is owned by Rupert Murdoch
ABC is owned by Disney
CBS is owned by Viacom
NBC is owned by GE
I hate the US news media as much as anyone, but it's neither centralized nor a monopoly.  The above quote proves this.  There are also numerous magazines that are published by different companies.  Other than the BBC I am completely ignorant of UK news sources.  And I am aware that the two big examples of state-owned media, BBC and NPR, tend to be hostile towards the government.  But I would prefer several privately owned news sources than one government owned one.



sirana

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Reply #21 on: May 23, 2007, 08:59:18 AM
Certainly that can't be the whole reason why there's less of a fuss in Germany, but I'd submit that's potentially part of it. What's your media like? For that matter, what are your hot button issues?

The tv Germany is a mixed bag. You have the "Öffentlich Rechtlichen" a bunch of channels that are financed by mandatory fees and commercials. Two of them (ARD, ZDF) are pretty big, the rest are local and regional channels. The news that are shown on these channels are pretty decent and a lot people (although getting less) get their tv news there.
Then there is the ca. 15 bigger private channels that are owned by 2 big companies (Pro7Sat1MediaAG which is owned by two private equity companies and the RTL-group which is the biggest European TV company. )
The news that are shown on these channels are more infotainment and sensationalist than the ones on ARD/ZDF, but to varying degrees. NTV a 24-hour news channel owned by RTL-group has pretty decent news, but at RTL2 90% of the time is devoted to Paris Hiltons jailtime and Britney Spear's hearcut.
Mostly the news don't have much of a political spin behind it and are pretty objective, but special political segments or reportages on ARD/ZDF are pretty leftleaning.
Even on private channels the news segments don't feel as "showy" as many of the American 24hour news channels.

Regarding newspapers the image is much bleaker. The BILD is the biggest newspaper in both Germany and Europe and the 3rd biggest in the World, selling 3.5 million every day. It's a very aggressive tabloid style newspaper that rants against "freeloaders", politicians and pretty much everything that crosses its way. It routinely manipulates facts and prints deliberately untrue statements.
The next biggest paper is the Sueddeutsche Zeitung, which only has acirculation of 400.000.
Bild is leaning pretty much in the direction of the CDU, Germans conservative party, but also publishes some aggressive articles against "overblown capitalism".
The former chancellor Gerhard Schröder once said "In order to gouvern I only need Bild, Bams (the Sunday edition of Bild) and TV"


Most of our hot-button issues at the moment are tied to unemployment. People taking advantage of the Unemployment insurance is something that comes pretty often from the right, the left counters with poor grandmothers that have to survive on catfood.
General minimum wages (we only have them in specific sectors right now) and job security also come up regularily.
Immigration and integration is also something that is debated pretty hotly. Terrorism and the curtailing of civil liberties also sparks a lot of discussions both from the left and from the right.
Religion is pretty much out of the picture, except when it is Islam. There were some pretty intense debates whether Islamic teachers should be allowed to wear headscarves in school.
Environmentalism is also big, though not as big as it was 10-15 years ago.
The German part in the War on Terror (small as it may be) is debated in newspapers and the public, but not so much in the political arena (where everybody except the socialistic Linkspartei has more or less the same oppinions)



Anarkey

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Reply #22 on: May 23, 2007, 11:35:31 AM
Immigration and integration is also something that is debated pretty hotly. Terrorism and the curtailing of civil liberties also sparks a lot of discussions both from the left and from the right.

Ditto for the U.S.  I'd bet this is a good starting place for comparative politics that actually approximates apples to apples.  Immigration is also interesting in the U.S. because it often divides politicians along lines that differ from party, such as agricultural states vs. highly urbanized ones and border states vs. the rest, and so on.

In Germany, are political stances on immigration usually party-based?

Religion is pretty much out of the picture, except when it is Islam. There were some pretty intense debates whether Islamic teachers should be allowed to wear headscarves in school.

Sounds like a topic that overlaps with immigration and integration.

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Michael

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Reply #23 on: May 23, 2007, 12:25:07 PM
Germany is an unusual case, because half of the country had a fairly intense athiest policy for generations... Wikipedia points out "Currently, there is a wide difference in the religiosity of East Germany and West Germany. According to a poll conducted by the World Values Survey in 1999, just 30% of East Germans who gave a response believed in God, compared to nearly 77% of West Germans"  This leads to much lower Church attendance in Germany, on average.  East Germany: "The average church attendance is now one of the lowest in the world, with only 5% attending at least once per week, compared to 14% in the West according to a recent study."   In contrast "Gallup International indicates that 41% of American citizens report they regularly attend religious services."

If you wonder why topics related to religion are debated more in the US than Germany, you don't have to go much further than that.



ClintMemo

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Reply #24 on: May 23, 2007, 12:53:50 PM
What are the voter turnout rates like in Germany and elsewhere in Europe?  In Kentucky (over here in the U.S.), we had a primary election for state offices (including the governorship) and had a whopping 15% turnout - which is typical. 
When I went to vote, the line consisted of myself and one other person.

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