Author Topic: EP107: Eight Episodes  (Read 31026 times)

Russell Nash

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on: May 24, 2007, 06:53:38 PM
EP107: Eight Episodes

2007 Hugo Nominee!

By Robert Reed.
Read by MarBelle (of Director’s Notes).
First appeared in Asimov’s Science Fiction, June 2006.

Eighteen months later, the fledging Web network declared bankruptcy, and a small consortium acquired its assets, including Invasion of a Small World. Eager to recoup their investment, the new owners offered all eight episodes as a quick-and-dirty DVD package. When sales proved somewhat better than predicted, a new version was cobbled together, helped along by a genuine ad budget. The strongest initial sales came from the tiny pool of determined fans—young and well educated, with little preference for nationality or gender. But the scientists in several fields, astronomy and paleontology included, were the ones who created a genuine buzz that eventually put Invasion into the public eye.

Rated PG. Contains some suggestive imagery, references to infidelity, and not very good television.



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Referenced Sites:
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« Last Edit: June 01, 2007, 08:21:30 AM by Russell Nash »



Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #1 on: May 24, 2007, 09:45:21 PM
I don't think I get this one.  The prose was excelent, and the imaginary TV show was a great device to pull me it, but it seemed like the conclusion was chopped off.  I was surprised when the music played: It didn't seem like the story was over.  There was a nice buildup to what I thought would be the stunning revelation, but instead I'm left wondering just who did make "Invasion" and what that party was trying to achieve.

(I personally like the idea that "Invasion" was an immensely successful hoax and that there are a half-dozen geeks laughing together somewhere at how the world has been fooled into thinking it's gotten an alien message.  Those guys would have pulled off the biggest prank ever, and I imagine they would be hugely satisfied with themselves.)

Now that I write that, it occurs to me that maybe that's the point: I'm supposed to to be left speculating, just like the ficticious viewers of "Invasion" would be.  In that way, I almost become a character in the story.  From that perspective, it's very cool.

Entertaining, at any rate, even if I don't really understand it.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2007, 10:00:58 PM by Mr. Tweedy »

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VBurn

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Reply #2 on: May 24, 2007, 09:46:23 PM
Wow, this story rocks. This story is instantly in the top 3 on my EP fave list now.  A great, fun, and well written story.  I loved the reading also, but for some reason I can stop thinking of MarBelle as Cinderalla Tintype (I think that story was made for his voice).



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Reply #3 on: May 24, 2007, 10:45:21 PM
Very interesting story.  I like Robert Reed's stuff and I could listen to anything MarBelle narrates.  I think it's interesting that two of the Hugo nominees have to do with film/television although I'm not sure why.  This one reminded me a little bit of "the footage" in William Gibson's Pattern Recognition and the movement that generated online.


TechNoir

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Reply #4 on: May 24, 2007, 11:30:53 PM
Occasionally I enjoy an odd approach to a narrative. Every once in a while something other than a first or third person traditional narrative structure makes a story more interesting. I think this was the case here. Its presentation as a sort of an essay on the subject of this show made me pay more attention. I don’t think I would have liked it near as much if it was told from any other perspective.

I also have an affection for stories told in the form of diary entries or letters.

Never be so enamored with your own cleverness so as to stop and watch it.


eytanz

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Reply #5 on: May 25, 2007, 12:13:25 AM
This story was enjoyable, but not really exciting - maybe it's just that my expectations were raised really high after the previous two superlative stories, but this one, while good, just didn't feel particularly great.

The reading was excellent, though.



Simon Painter

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Reply #6 on: May 25, 2007, 10:36:44 AM
An interesting one this, some neat ideas in there but they don't really seem fully developed, mostly they're mostly just stated by a few of the characters at the end.

The cancelled cult TV series certainly resonates with me, though, you have to wonder if TV producers are allergic to decent programs  :P

I enjoyed this one overall, though I'd say it's probably the weakest of the Hugo entrants we've had so far.

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Reply #7 on: May 25, 2007, 01:47:15 PM
When I saw "Robert Reed," all I could think was, wait, the guy from The Brady Bunch? Didn't he pass away in the 90s?

Ah, different Robert Reed.

The story itself I think I understand, but I didn't find it particularly thought-provoking.

The reason for this, I believe, is that nothing is really happening to anyone. There's no-one to relate to, because none of the characters in the story are held up as being real.

The main character is not a person but a TV series.

Had there been a couple of fleshed-out characters in the story whose lives have been touched by the canceled series, the narrative might have had more impact on me.

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slic

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Reply #8 on: May 25, 2007, 04:48:21 PM
If I hadn't known this was a Hugo nominee, I would never have guessed it. For me this story falls into the same category as songs by Miriah Carrey... I will never understand why they are so popular. Listening to it, it really felt like the review of a good short story more than a complete story. The premise intrigued me, but much too much plain description.

I think Jim's comment hits the nail on the head here - the main character was the series - too abstract for me.

Also the "reveal" near the end that it might have been an Alien AI that wrote the series seemed counter-intuitive.  Why have at least two characters in the series even raise the idea that this was possibly a trick by the aliens to keep humans on Earth?  Reverse-Psycology?



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Reply #9 on: May 25, 2007, 05:07:05 PM
It was a story about an idea, almost like a fake documentary, so the way it was presented worked for me, but only as a nice diversion from "regular" stories.  If it had gone on a lot longer, it would have gotten old, but it was just long enough and developed enough to keep my interest.


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eytanz

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Reply #10 on: May 26, 2007, 03:08:20 PM
Also the "reveal" near the end that it might have been an Alien AI that wrote the series seemed counter-intuitive.  Why have at least two characters in the series even raise the idea that this was possibly a trick by the aliens to keep humans on Earth?  Reverse-Psycology?

See, I got the opposite reaction - I think it took me about 25 seconds of listening before I realized "oh, it's going to end with the whole series being by actual aliens". The only question was - benevolent aliens or hostile ones?

The way I interpreted the ending was the former. The series was true - there is no way for a civilization to ever leave its home planet. The AI was designed as basically a friendly message from afar - "we can't ever meet, since we're separated by time and insurmountable space, but hey, we're thinking of you". The reason the series raised the possibility that it's all a lie is that that possibility is comforting to many - and the aliens would rather have people think they're evil if that's what it takes for the people to not give up hope - it's not like there will be any consequences.



slic

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Reply #11 on: May 26, 2007, 06:25:00 PM
It was a story about an idea, almost like a fake documentary, so the way it was presented worked for me, but only as a nice diversion from "regular" stories.  If it had gone on a lot longer, it would have gotten old, but it was just long enough and developed enough to keep my interest.
Sure, I got that, but take "This is Spinal Tap" or even more contempory "Death of a President", and they told a story about the idea.  In this case, perhaps the author was too on the mark - it was told in the format of a documentary on a cult phenomenon, Invasion.  The series, it's impact and the mystery behind it.  Just a very dry documentary, with the narrator talking too much.

Interesing premise, eytanz, that the aliens wanted to say hello, but not hurt our feelings.  Sure, that could work.  Just seems a backwards way to do it, and one that didn't really work - why make a crappy series, then?  If it had studied us so well, then it could have done better, no?



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Reply #12 on: May 27, 2007, 01:45:05 AM
As a mass communications student, I really liked this story. I liked the presentation of a "first-contact" scenario through an internet television program a la "Sanctuary". I guess I saw this story as a kind of commentary on our lack of patience when it comes to entertainment and how stereotyped media truly is. Dr. Smith is a pudgy guy from India, which would be a total no-no in American media society. How many of us would truly tolerate 53 minutes of a spinning planet? We're programmed by media to see hyperbeauty and extreme action as the norm.

 Also, I did feel that the extraterrestrials of the series weren't that original. Jack McDevitt wrote a really good novel called Infinity Beach, in which the aliens are really tiny. I highly reccomend that book.



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Reply #13 on: May 27, 2007, 01:57:38 AM
I think the story had a good premise, though the documentary style with no definitive ending left me a little cold.  Had there been a definitive ending, I'd have been happier.

I think this is definitely one of those stories that's better read than heard.

The points made in the story -- the immense distances between planets, the difficulty of getting from here to there, et al -- were all quite valid, and the debates everyone had about whether it was real or not were interesting from an intellectual standpoint.

Once I found out the ship was the size of two grains of rice, "the invasion fleet was swallowed by a small dog" ran through my head.  (One wonders if the fleet then shot its way out of that dog... I mean, they did have laser cannons or something, yes?)

An interesting concept, but I don't know if I'd've called it one of the best SF stories of the year (as the Hugo nomination seems to contend, being that it is one of the "best" awards for SF writers to get).

I liked Eley's comment at the end about Invasion being on Fox.



There are, what, two more Hugo nominees left in this category?  And one is "How to Talk to Girls at Parties"?  I sure hope I like the other one, because while HTTTGAP was a compelling story, it wasn't amazing or anything IMO.  Maybe I'll like it better when I revisit it with EP.

On the whole alien thing, I firmly believe that if aliens are out there, they'll pass us by, laughing all the way.  40 years of manned spaceflight and all we've accomplished is picking up some rocks and building a tin can that sits in orbit with three people aboard?  *sigh*

Although Dr. Smith's son was absolutely right -- humans are the meanest and most adaptable species out there.  Better for aliens to leave us be, monitor us, and figure out what to do with us once we get out of our star system.  That is, if we don't blow them away, given that spaceflight is (for now and IMO the foreseeable future despite private space initiatives -- get me started on that in another topic please, I'm starting to ramble) controlled by the military.  Anything more powerful than us comes along, they're likely to shoot at it anyway, just to see what happens.

All that being said, Eight Episodes was entertaining enough that I listened to the whole thing while taking a walk with my daughter (she was in her stroller; it's not like I was ignoring her or anything) this morning.

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Smegzor

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Reply #14 on: May 27, 2007, 11:49:28 AM
I found this story very dull, and didn't enjoy it at all.



wakela

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Reply #15 on: May 27, 2007, 11:44:54 PM
I liked it and liked the inconclusive ending of both the story and the TV show.  I makes sense to me that a message from aliens would be delivered clumsily and not 100% compensable, also that an event as monumental as this would have a mysterious conspiracy theory surrounding it.  It reminds me of a passage in David Brin's The Uplift War.  The humans ask the more advanced "galactics" about some age old paradox involving free will.  The aliens reply that there are no paradoxes.  Such a question is not even possible in their language.  The aliens of "Invasion" might have thought their message contained no ambiguity.   If aliens do ever give us a message don't you think our first reply would be, "Huh?  Wait.  What do you mean?"

I also thought it was funny that the show was not something so subtle and complex that greedy studio executives killed it.  It was just a bad show. 



Biscuit

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Reply #16 on: May 28, 2007, 04:02:13 AM
I liked this story very much, because it was about an idea rather than an action/character.

I like the "breaking down" of popular sci fi beliefs - that aliens are hostile, we don't see them coming, and science/discovery only happens to really good looking people within a short span of time.

It reinforces that human beings are a dirty lot, with a lot of growing up to do, but the beauty is in that simple line "That the biggest invasion is life itself". How can we be lonely with an infinite variety around us?

Having just read Jack McDevitt's "Fifth Day" from the April/May Asimov's, this story really synchs with that notion.

Wonderful. 


JimHarris

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Reply #17 on: May 28, 2007, 06:41:23 PM
This story started slow but I ended up liking it quite a bit.  This story belongs to a type of story that says something about being a science fiction fan.  It reminds me when I was talking with a young woman at our office.  She was about 22, and she was praising Babylon 5 and Star Wars and wishing space ships would hurry up and become like those in the shows.  I said I doubted that would happen since travel faster than light is supposed to be impossible and the few mathematical exceptions requires enough energy that we'd have to convert Jupiter sized masses to have enough energy to warp space.  I could see that I had depressed her.  I asked her if she hadn't heard about Einstein and his theories.  She said if space travel couldn't be like the Enterprise then the future would be very depressing.  Over the years I've read other stories that had science fiction fans discovering that reality wasn't going to be like science fiction.  Of course Reed left hope in his story, but the real fascinating concept is:  what if we can't travel to the stars?  That's a great philosophical question to be covered by science fiction.



contra

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Reply #18 on: May 28, 2007, 09:42:35 PM
but the real fascinating concept is:  what if we can't travel to the stars?  That's a great philosophical question to be covered by science fiction.

This is an idea that is not explored enough in sci fi.  I'm guessing that is because while an interesting idea... it leads to other more interesting ideas for stories and we end up overlooking the implications of what this means for us as a species. 

As for this story, I feel much the same as others here.  It started slow, and built up till I htought it was a good story.  I don't think it needed a twist or clever ending, as the implications of that the story is telling you are supposed to leave you thinking.  I think a twist ending would take away from that.
I'm not even sure what find of twist could be added that wouldn't feel created or made up.  The different ways people reacted to the news made for the story to have a more real feel to it; even if those reactions were fake computer simulations.

Its a good story, solid, clever and worth it.  I don't have anything bad to say other than it took awhile to get into... and thats not really a bad thing...

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Loz

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Reply #19 on: May 29, 2007, 11:08:37 AM
I just didn't like that at all. Part of the problem for me was MarBelle's delivery, that deadpan style works well when he's narrating wham bam pow stuff like that story he did a few months ago, when it's something that's one stage removed and reading like something between a newspaper report and the Encyclopaedia of Science Fiction, well it sounded a lot like boredom to me.

It reminded me of Mark Danielewski's House of Leaves which ruined what would have been a perfectly adequate haunted house story by mostly telling it with an emotionless, reporting authorial voice. At least this was (a lot) shorter. Although it had some good things to say about the state of televised sci-fi it posed that central question that everyone picked up on, then singularly refused to do anything with it. That's not a story, that's a four a.m. blog post when you're being ridden by the insomnia fairy.



wakela

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Reply #20 on: May 29, 2007, 12:01:27 PM
This story reminded me of a pet peeve that Steve wrote about here.
Quote
This isn't so much a peeve as kind of an eye-roller, and I feel as if it even has to be explained delicately: but I'm always slightly thrown by what I have to call "gratuitous diversity."  I'm not saying that diversity is bad, but it's pretty obvious that a lot of SF authors (and yes, I'll say it, white male SF authors) feel obliged to shoehorn it in without really thinking about it.  You are no longer allowed in hard SF to have a leading scientist who's a white guy.  And if you have a team of scientists, then one of them absolutely has to be Asian, one of them has to be African, the smartest ones have to be women, and if you can make one of them a talking primate or dolphin that's even better.  Eventually there must be some sex between the scientists, too, though you can leave the primate out of that.  (The dolphin's probably kinky enough to be interested, but the author never is.)
I happen to agree with him on this one.  But I thought that the ethnicity of Dr. Smith seemed completely natural, even though the author and narrator called attention to it.   I was wondering if Steve felt the same way...

Obviously it was a commentary on how we prefer our leading men to be white and good-looking, but more interestingly I thought it also indicated how the aliens assumed that making their scientist an Indian was more appropriate because it was realistic. 



slic

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Reply #21 on: May 29, 2007, 04:26:40 PM
Speaking of Dr. Smith, one of my nitpicky points was his last name.  Smith? 
I'm sure somewhere there is an Asian Indian out there with the last name of Smith, but it was silly and annoying to me.  Granted when I read 'Interface' I substituted Radhakrishnan in my head with Radhak, but the author could have come up with a nickname easily enough, if he thought it was troublesome.   I worked with a fellow named Breevristera, and he went by B.R.



eytanz

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Reply #22 on: May 29, 2007, 05:07:02 PM
Smith wasn't the character's name in the series - the story said early on that he had an Asian name that most Western viewers found unpronouncable, and that "Smith" was the nickname that he was given on online forums during the early episodes.

I think this was one of the satirical jabs that fell pretty flat, since A - the narrator kept calling him Smith obscuring the point, and B - it doesn't accurately represent fan forum behavior anyway - there probably would be plenty of fans who would pride themselves on correctly pronouncing the names. This is likely to be moreso if the show is relatively obscure, not less so.

It also raises a more serious point, that I hadn't originally realized. The cast and setting of the show is global, but the audience reactions seem to be entirely rooted in North American culture. Was the show only shown in North America? Why? That makes no sense if it is an alien message to the world. Or was it that the narration only treated the North American responses as important? Was the assumption that the rest of the world doesn't participate in the discussion? Or was it that the story is written mostly to a North American readership, and thus it should be about North Americans, in a sense thus an example of the type of attitude it seems to attack?



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Reply #23 on: May 29, 2007, 06:47:48 PM
but the real fascinating concept is:  what if we can't travel to the stars?  That's a great philosophical question to be covered by science fiction.

This is an idea that is not explored enough in sci fi.  I'm guessing that is because while an interesting idea... it leads to other more interesting ideas for stories and we end up overlooking the implications of what this means for us as a species.

I think this is precisely the kind of question that the Mundane SF movement encourages writers to explore. I have no position either way on Mundane SF, but I think it is harder to deal with questions like this in the face of science so advanced that it looks to us like magic. Having said that, I'll also say that Accelerando doesn't posit FTL and any sort of deep space travel would take a long time. This has real consequences which affect the story. However, the novel also has downloadable brains. So while it does deal with this question (if tangentially), it isn't Mundane SF.



Nobilis

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Reply #24 on: May 30, 2007, 08:43:22 PM
I think I'm getting old.  Am I the only one who expects stories to be about people? 

Yes, SF can be about ideas or what-ifs or technologies... but if you don't bring it back around and make some kind of statement about what those ideas or what-ifs or technologies mean for people, how they affect peoples' lives or the way they think or something, then you haven't really said anything.

Who is changed by the Eight Episodes?

Once again, I find myself thinking that this is a good setup for a larger story... perhaps a conflict between believers who want to husband the resources of the Solar System towards a long, quiet life for Humanity, and adventurers who want to spend them to expand outwards to other stars.  After all, the idea that the message was a lie, sewn across the galaxy to slow down the progress of any intelligent races that may exist in it, would be a compelling one for many people.

Jump ahead a hundred years and tell me what Earth is like.  Five hundred.  Ten thousand.  That's what I want to know.

I don't think this story deserves a Hugo.  To tell the truth, I wonder why it was nominated.

There are some interesting techniques in this story.  The story-within-a-story is as old as 1001 Nights, but this version has an interesting twist... I just wish the twist had had a chance to do anything but just lie there.

I guess I just want things to HAPPEN.



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Reply #25 on: May 30, 2007, 09:05:02 PM
I think I'm getting old.  Am I the only one who expects stories to be about people? 

High-concept SF sometimes isn't.

I love writing because I get to create people, and then I get to find out what they'll do when I expose them to stresses.  I love meeting my characters.

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eytanz

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Reply #26 on: May 31, 2007, 02:31:46 PM
This is sort of like the 'plausibility' debate - it's not really a matter of right or wrong. Some people like stories that are strongly grounded in the real world, some people only like stories that are about people - while others care less about either. I personally prefer stories about people to stories which are just about ideas, but I don't require that of every story I read/hear.

I also found it somewhat surprising that this story was nominated for a Hugo, but, as I said above, that's just because it was just not excellent in any way. On its own merits, it was quite enjoyable.



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Reply #27 on: June 04, 2007, 03:40:55 PM
Didn't like it much. The narration was too heavily accented and deadpan for me and the story wasn't really much. An interesting idea, but there's got to be a better way of presenting it.



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Reply #28 on: June 04, 2007, 07:41:21 PM
A good reading. This story hooked me with its premise and the odd way it revolved around the shows plot line.  The hinted at alien involvement kept me listening yet I was disapointed at the end.

I was waiting for the punch and it never arrived.


ajames

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Reply #29 on: June 05, 2007, 12:05:33 AM
...the beauty is in that simple line "That the biggest invasion is life itself". How can we be lonely with an infinite variety around us? 

This story didn't do a whole lot for me but that line from the narrative pulled it all together in a way that gave it some impact.  Maybe we won't ever travel from inhabited world to inhabited world and meet aliens everywhere we go as in some sci-fi stories.  But on this planet, once a barren place itself, life propagated and diversified and thrived, and so it is throughout the universe.

Were aliens behind the show?  That was just a feint so you wouldn't see the punch coming, the punch being that WE, life, are the invasion.  When you look at it that way, aliens are just another form of life, another part of the invasion.

At least, that's how I interpreted the story.



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Reply #30 on: June 05, 2007, 07:35:29 AM
This was a good story, I loved the concept of it, I loved the firefly/star trek feel to it.  it also had you walk away With that open ending wondering who really made the show. that was cool to me cause i could write my own ending in my head or just meander down the road of possibilities for a while and that is fun to me. If the concept is good.


The reader on this was Amazing please bring him back again!



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Reply #31 on: June 06, 2007, 01:53:38 PM
Typical. My first comment to a new forum and I'm going to wind up disagreeing with everyone else. Way to begin, Phil! Apologies if this reads as even slightly flame-y, because that's not the intention.

Having said that...

I hated this story...

(Rant, rant, rant. Anything vaguely resembling a substantive point in this snipped bit has been quoted and covered below anyway but frankly, I'm just embarrassed by the whole thing... In any case, I've kept a copy of the original if anyone objects to my editing this for the salient points of a sense of a lack of believability and associated issues. Is that all right?)

It tries to provoke thought and fails abjectly. It aims to be about ideas rather than people and succeeds so wildly it feels more like a lousily-executed theoretical paper. It stretches the bounds of credibility so far that they snap. And it's not even fun to listen to because the dramatic presentation feels aimless and there's no tension to keep you interested.

Steve, you've wasted your money this time.  :(

</rant>
« Last Edit: June 07, 2007, 08:08:11 AM by englishphil »

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Reply #32 on: June 06, 2007, 02:46:50 PM
(Moderated.  I suspect T was being ironic, but even so.  No insults on other listeners, please.)

No, I wasn't being ironic. I was being an ass.
Rightfuly moderated.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2007, 11:35:29 AM by Thaurismunths »

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eytanz

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Reply #33 on: June 06, 2007, 03:01:33 PM
Typical. My first comment to a new forum and I'm going to wind up disagreeing with everyone else. Way to begin, Phil! Apologies if this reads as even slightly flame-y, because that's not the intention.

Having said that...

I hated this story. As in, had I not been listening because I had a long queue in the Post Office in which to stand, I would want these 30-ish minutes of my life back, please. And it's sad, 1) because this is the first EP story I've said that for and 2) because Mr Reed's track record as listed in the intro is very impressive.

But let me see if I understand this correctly: a major television network commissions eight episodes of a sloppily-made series based on a few minutes of footage, no press pack and no contact with the creative minds behind it.

Well, this seems to be the one thing you didn't understand correctly - the story made it pretty clear this was not a major network, but a new network trying to establish itself by getting bargain priced shows and hoping that some of them stick.

Quote
Is it really credible that an intelligent species that's advanced enough to create network television from across the interstellar void has either skipped the stage of radio transmissions chattering away into the ether or completely masked all their planetary radio output for all that time so we haven't spotted them?

The alien civilization is millions of years old. A physical space-travelling AI, like the one described in the story, would probably be travelling slower than radio waves, and it arrived long before the development of intelligent life on Earth. Probably, the Alien's radio chatter had come long before humans had the power to hear it - and the alien civilization might have survived only several thousands or tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands of years, so it also ended long before humans were capable of detecting it.

As for the rest of what you say - well, it's mostly arguing based on plausibility, and that's been debated here before. Some people put a more stock than others into how plausible a story is, and that's just a matter of taste. If you found this story to be too implausible to get into - well, that's certainly a valid opinion, but it's not something that you should be surprised about when others feel differently from you.

As I said above, I thought this was a good story but far from great. I must say, though, that I never found it implausible - for me, at least, this story was not a case of founding it hard to credit but enjoying it regardless, but I found it perfectly credible as I went along, and even hindsight didn't find too many faults on that side. I don't have any intelligent response to the questions about the audience reaction - it just didn't bother me and that's that, but as for the following point, you touched a minor pet peeve of mine:

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Why is this a Hugo nominee?!

Hugo nominees are selected by popular vote. Therefore, it must be the case that this story spoke to enough people who thought it was better than anything else out there this year. You're certainly not one of those people. Nor am I - I don't dislike the story but I feel there were a lot of better selections. Still, it's silly to be surprised that the tastes of others fail to match one's own.

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Steve, you've wasted your money this time.  :(

Clearly not, since a lot of other people here seem to like it, many far more than I have. I doubt Steve's goal is to please all of the people, all of the time, and I'm pretty sure that a story that pleases a large percentage of his audience is considered far from a waste, even if you were not part of that percentage.

It's always valid to express your opinion, but it's nice to keep some perspective as well - if you start a post by pointing out that you are disagreeing with everyone else, don't end it by claiming that Steve failed to deliver.



SFEley

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Reply #34 on: June 06, 2007, 03:14:55 PM
Folks, let's ease back on the argument.  EnglishPhil didn't insult anyone, and a highly negative opinion on a work is just as valid as a highly positive one.

I'm sorry you didn't like it, Phil.  The best I can offer you is that this week we'll have different words in a different order.

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Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #35 on: June 06, 2007, 03:16:30 PM
Ouch, Thaur, that was quite a scorcher!

I think englishphil's comments are interesting because they remind me of something I'd commented on before, which is the matter of interpretation.  I think a big part of the idea behind this story, and what makes it fun, is the uncertainty as to actual nature of "Invasion."  Although I agree that phil's nitpicking is a bit extreme, some of his points are good, and they would add wieght to the "hoax" interpretation, which is the one I like.  It is not deffinitively stated in the story that there are any aliens, just that are certain people who think so.

My preffered intepretation is that there were no aliens at all: The whole thing was a very nice hoax, either pulled off by the network for profit or by geeks for glory.  All of flaws phil picked out are not flaws at all, in that case.  They make perfect sense if looked at from that perspective.

I like this story better the more I think about it, and I'm coming around to the view that this story isn't about aliens at all.  It's about sociology, what people want to believe and why and what sort of evidence convinces them.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2007, 03:19:14 PM by Mr. Tweedy »

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englishphil

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Reply #36 on: June 06, 2007, 04:27:25 PM
It certainly hadn't been my intention to pick a fight on this, and I'm sorry if that's how I came across. It is indeed highly likely that along the way I've missed a number of points - could it be that this is one of those stories which comes along sometimes that simply works better on the written page than in spoken word?

The thing is, while I'm not exactly bolted onto the hard end of the science fiction spectrum (case in point: my favourite recent EP - "The Angle Of My Dreams" - is probably not one that most of us would classify as hard SF) the stories I enjoy the most on EP tend to be the one that, at least on a fantastic level, make a certain credible sense - and I didn't get that with this one. To venture a suggestion somewhat out of left-field, maybe the concept behind the story would have worked better (or possibly would still work better, depending on the author's inclinations) in a longer narrative with more space to kick the ideas around. But that's just my view. My disbelief notwithstanding, it is a Hugo nominee so at the very least the concept is clearly interesting enough for a lot of people to enjoy.

I came off trollish, for which I do sincerely apologise. It was certainly not my intent.  :-[

As has been said - thanks eytanz - it is just a matter of taste. Part of that, I think, is the impression a given story leaves on you. Sometimes a story hooks you with a good first impression but seems to go downhill, others start weak but engage you enough as it goes on that the final impression is better than the beginning would have you believe. Some stories - too few and far between so much of the time - hit a home run on this score, and some just seem to miss the mark. This story was, for me, one of that latter category, and that was something of a first for me around here.

Lastly - and I'm shutting up on this topic now before I say anything else worth getting smacked around for ;D - Steve, you've got nothing to apologise for. You keep 'casting, I'll keep listening. Every once in a while, I might even pontificate...

Best all,

P.

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Reply #37 on: June 06, 2007, 05:14:22 PM
See, there I go letting the real world get the better of me and being a perfect ass hole to someone who seems to have a fine head on their shoulders.

You have fine opinions Phil and I hope you'll keep bringing them up. You're new, and I am totally in the wrong here.

Sorry for being a dick everybody.

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Reply #38 on: June 06, 2007, 08:44:29 PM
<breaks self-imposed silence>
<brings humble pie for self>

Hey Thaur, on the "dick" stakes I figure I'm happy to call that one a fair fight if you are - it is, after all, not your fault that I listened more closely to the music than to the song this episode  :) No harm, no foul?

And - I tell thee truly - listing and trying to sell nearly £400 (probably about $750) worth of books on Amazon Marketplace does odd things to the brain... With that in mind it's probably a good thing I can't go to Yokohama...  :(

Oh yeah, bonus points to the first one to spot the Babylon 5 reference in the above! :P

Best,
P

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wakela

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Reply #39 on: June 07, 2007, 12:32:51 AM
Wow.  That was like the worst flamewar ever.

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Does nobody consider the possibility that the Permian-era lizard that shows up in the series just before a very similar one is discovered in real life is nothing more than coincidence?

Actually, I heard the same thing happened in Jurassic Park.  Spielberg made his velociraptors 7 feet tall to make the scarier, even though actual 'raptors were 5 feet tall.  But then a 7 foot tall skeleton was discovered after the movie was made. 

 



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Reply #40 on: June 07, 2007, 01:43:53 AM
Wow.  That was like the worst flamewar ever.
What's the emoticon for sarcasm?  I think you forgot to add it.  And I need it too :P



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Reply #41 on: June 07, 2007, 02:15:19 PM
No harm, no foul?
Done. : )

So, that being said, this was only "ok" in my book. Not exactly a gripping story, by any stretch, but it was actually the plodding pace that made it believable for me. I kept asking myself "Why doesn't someone just sit down and watch the whole series? Why is this just one at a time?" and that got me thinking about Firefly.
Now firefly is pretty much the exact opposite of these Eight Episodes, but similar in how it had its own cult following. There's only a dozen or so episodes, and got killed quickly, but for us geeks it's a goldmine of fandom. Its fame came after the show was murdered, and is slowly being digested by its fans. New truths, stories, inside jokes are being discovered, and ideas are being built off of them. For a small but growing population it has changed the way they view SF. The demand for spin-offs, toys, movies, videogames, and lunch boxes will grow with it.
This kind of avid fandom happens often in SF, so why not in Science?

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Reply #42 on: June 07, 2007, 06:57:44 PM
What a strange, charming story.  I certainly understand why it didn't work for everybody, but it worked well enough for me.  Didn't quite rise to the level of the first two I heard, but it's a worthy nominee.  Damn, this is a strong batch this year, isn't it.



wakela

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Reply #43 on: June 08, 2007, 01:31:44 AM
This reminded me of a show called Swan's Crossing that ran in 1992.  Sarah Michelle Gellar was in it.   Swan's Crossing was a horrible show.  it was a teen soap opera, and it only came on in the middle of the night, but my boss taped it for me.   I don't like stuff that's so-bad-it's-good like Plan 9 from Outer Space.   But there was stuff in it that was so strange and interesting that we couldn't help but think that the writers were geniuses.    I've never met anyone else who's heard of it.

But there were no aliens.  Nudebranchs, yes, but no aliens. 



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Reply #44 on: June 08, 2007, 01:20:50 PM
Something to ponder:

What if this isn't a story about aliens at all? What if this is actually a science fiction story about science fiction?

Do you prefer your SF hard science-based, like Prof. Smith, even if it means that nothing exciting and otherworldly will happen? Or do you agree with his son, blasting videogame spaceships and kicking alien butt? Or do you see yourself in Mary who had hope for the universe despite what she knew to be true? Do you go for fandom of canceled shows like Invasion (or Firefly)?  Or would an episode of nothing happening turn you off? Would you, like the Nobel laurate, invent alternate explanations for holes in the plot? Sure, you agree that there should be more diversity in SF, but would you identify with a tubby Indian with an unpronounceable name?

Maybe none of this is what the author intended, but reading the story with these questions in mind makes the story into an interesting debate about what science fiction should be.

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Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #45 on: June 08, 2007, 01:44:04 PM
I think you've got it.

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ajames

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Reply #46 on: June 09, 2007, 12:25:14 PM
As sayeth says, so sayeth I, I says.



VBurn

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Reply #47 on: June 11, 2007, 12:23:40 PM
Quote
Something to ponder:

What if this isn't a story about aliens at all? What if this is actually a science fiction story about science fiction?

That is just what the aliens what you to think!



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Reply #48 on: June 11, 2007, 08:02:38 PM
As sayeth says, so sayeth I, I says.
that was amazing. :P

PERSONALLY i enjoyed this story.  Yes it had holes, flaws, etc.  But i have a feeling it was meant to have holes, to let people interpret the story the way they want to.  after all, aliens are never pinned as the makers of the show.  Though it would be an interesting way to communicate with us.
it almost seems to be pointing out the radical suppositions of people in the face of something strange instead of trying to place the alien "what if" in there.

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


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Reply #49 on: July 08, 2007, 02:27:45 AM
It is not deffinitively stated in the story that there are any aliens, just that are certain people who think so.
I think it was strongly implied by the various things that were later discovered by scientists in different fields of study.

The story reminded me of two things:
1. The "Alien Autopsy" hoax film a few years ago.
2. The notion that the whole UFO Conspiracy business is a way for ThePowersThatBe to gradually reveal the existence of and the nature of aliens among us, and accustom the populace of Earth to them without actually allowing any incontrovertible evidence of them to get out, so as not to cause widespread panic. Different from the supposed MJ12, (Majestic, Majic, whatever,) plot which seeks to "cover it up" permanently by feeding the populace similar easily-discredited misinformation.

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Original Digga

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Reply #50 on: May 06, 2008, 01:20:58 PM
Wow, what a great story.  I really loved MarBelle's reading of this story, I liked the plot-line and it made me think.  "A lie is as good as pill if it helps you sleep" -- what a cool, flat statement.

I listened to this one two times in a row.

Salutations


El Barto

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Reply #51 on: September 13, 2009, 01:03:25 AM
I liked this story a lot.   It seemed like somewhat of a Rorschach test in that some people were inclined to say "see, interstellar travel was and is impossible."  Others said, "nice try you lying aliens -- you can't trick us into staying home!"   

When I listened to the first 75 or so episodes of EP I never even knew of these forums.  Now that I've started leaving some feedback I realize that I'm definitely a sucker for a great idea.  Sometimes even if the author doesn't take it all the way, or even very far, I find myself wanting to read more of his/her stories, to see what other ideas are being birthed.

Also, to those who were frustrated, I think part of what the author was trying to convey was that feeling of frustration at not knowing what really happened.  Was it a hoax?  Was it real but landed on Earth millions of years ago?  Or was it sent down from the moon recently?

Also, I really liked the style of the story.   At first I kept thinking why are they describing an obscure TV show and then as the plot developed I realized that the show wasn't an artifice to tell the story but rather it was the story.  Well done, sir!

For those who might be looking for more Robert Reed stories, I thought Truth (Asimov's 11/08) and A Billion Eves (Asimov's 10/06) were both five star outstanding.






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Reply #52 on: February 17, 2010, 06:56:49 PM
Like most Hugo nominees, I wasn't particularly wowed by this--further pointing out that my tastes have little to do with what's popular among larger populations.  I liked the idea, wasn't so thrilled about the execution.  It did definitely have the feel of a Wikipedia article, but I tend to skim those for the most interesting bits, so it doesn't work as a great model for story structure for me.  I would've liked to have a protagonist.

The parts that I did like were the odd juxtapositions.  The two scientists re-dressing themselves while having a scientific discussion, and this apparent sexual relationship is not discussed either before or after.  That sort of thing makes me suspect it really was aliens.  Like they'd been researching TV shows and see lots of scenes with people getting dressed at the beginning of a scene, but didn't fully understand it's context--that that glimpse implied much more behind the scenes.  Instead it was used as just a thing that people do, like eating breakfast in your pajamas, or getting a cup of coffee when you get to the office. 

Then again, it could've just been someone TRYING to convey that alien filmmaker mindset.  Or an alien TRYING to act like a human TRYING to convey an alien filmmaker mindset.  Or a human TRYING to act like an alien TRYING--  <ERROR:  RECURSIVE LOOP!  ABORTING!>