Author Topic: EP107: Eight Episodes  (Read 31079 times)

Listener

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Reply #25 on: May 30, 2007, 09:05:02 PM
I think I'm getting old.  Am I the only one who expects stories to be about people? 

High-concept SF sometimes isn't.

I love writing because I get to create people, and then I get to find out what they'll do when I expose them to stresses.  I love meeting my characters.

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eytanz

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Reply #26 on: May 31, 2007, 02:31:46 PM
This is sort of like the 'plausibility' debate - it's not really a matter of right or wrong. Some people like stories that are strongly grounded in the real world, some people only like stories that are about people - while others care less about either. I personally prefer stories about people to stories which are just about ideas, but I don't require that of every story I read/hear.

I also found it somewhat surprising that this story was nominated for a Hugo, but, as I said above, that's just because it was just not excellent in any way. On its own merits, it was quite enjoyable.



nix342

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Reply #27 on: June 04, 2007, 03:40:55 PM
Didn't like it much. The narration was too heavily accented and deadpan for me and the story wasn't really much. An interesting idea, but there's got to be a better way of presenting it.



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Reply #28 on: June 04, 2007, 07:41:21 PM
A good reading. This story hooked me with its premise and the odd way it revolved around the shows plot line.  The hinted at alien involvement kept me listening yet I was disapointed at the end.

I was waiting for the punch and it never arrived.


ajames

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Reply #29 on: June 05, 2007, 12:05:33 AM
...the beauty is in that simple line "That the biggest invasion is life itself". How can we be lonely with an infinite variety around us? 

This story didn't do a whole lot for me but that line from the narrative pulled it all together in a way that gave it some impact.  Maybe we won't ever travel from inhabited world to inhabited world and meet aliens everywhere we go as in some sci-fi stories.  But on this planet, once a barren place itself, life propagated and diversified and thrived, and so it is throughout the universe.

Were aliens behind the show?  That was just a feint so you wouldn't see the punch coming, the punch being that WE, life, are the invasion.  When you look at it that way, aliens are just another form of life, another part of the invasion.

At least, that's how I interpreted the story.



Creeperz

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Reply #30 on: June 05, 2007, 07:35:29 AM
This was a good story, I loved the concept of it, I loved the firefly/star trek feel to it.  it also had you walk away With that open ending wondering who really made the show. that was cool to me cause i could write my own ending in my head or just meander down the road of possibilities for a while and that is fun to me. If the concept is good.


The reader on this was Amazing please bring him back again!



englishphil

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Reply #31 on: June 06, 2007, 01:53:38 PM
Typical. My first comment to a new forum and I'm going to wind up disagreeing with everyone else. Way to begin, Phil! Apologies if this reads as even slightly flame-y, because that's not the intention.

Having said that...

I hated this story...

(Rant, rant, rant. Anything vaguely resembling a substantive point in this snipped bit has been quoted and covered below anyway but frankly, I'm just embarrassed by the whole thing... In any case, I've kept a copy of the original if anyone objects to my editing this for the salient points of a sense of a lack of believability and associated issues. Is that all right?)

It tries to provoke thought and fails abjectly. It aims to be about ideas rather than people and succeeds so wildly it feels more like a lousily-executed theoretical paper. It stretches the bounds of credibility so far that they snap. And it's not even fun to listen to because the dramatic presentation feels aimless and there's no tension to keep you interested.

Steve, you've wasted your money this time.  :(

</rant>
« Last Edit: June 07, 2007, 08:08:11 AM by englishphil »

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Thaurismunths

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Reply #32 on: June 06, 2007, 02:46:50 PM
(Moderated.  I suspect T was being ironic, but even so.  No insults on other listeners, please.)

No, I wasn't being ironic. I was being an ass.
Rightfuly moderated.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2007, 11:35:29 AM by Thaurismunths »

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eytanz

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Reply #33 on: June 06, 2007, 03:01:33 PM
Typical. My first comment to a new forum and I'm going to wind up disagreeing with everyone else. Way to begin, Phil! Apologies if this reads as even slightly flame-y, because that's not the intention.

Having said that...

I hated this story. As in, had I not been listening because I had a long queue in the Post Office in which to stand, I would want these 30-ish minutes of my life back, please. And it's sad, 1) because this is the first EP story I've said that for and 2) because Mr Reed's track record as listed in the intro is very impressive.

But let me see if I understand this correctly: a major television network commissions eight episodes of a sloppily-made series based on a few minutes of footage, no press pack and no contact with the creative minds behind it.

Well, this seems to be the one thing you didn't understand correctly - the story made it pretty clear this was not a major network, but a new network trying to establish itself by getting bargain priced shows and hoping that some of them stick.

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Is it really credible that an intelligent species that's advanced enough to create network television from across the interstellar void has either skipped the stage of radio transmissions chattering away into the ether or completely masked all their planetary radio output for all that time so we haven't spotted them?

The alien civilization is millions of years old. A physical space-travelling AI, like the one described in the story, would probably be travelling slower than radio waves, and it arrived long before the development of intelligent life on Earth. Probably, the Alien's radio chatter had come long before humans had the power to hear it - and the alien civilization might have survived only several thousands or tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands of years, so it also ended long before humans were capable of detecting it.

As for the rest of what you say - well, it's mostly arguing based on plausibility, and that's been debated here before. Some people put a more stock than others into how plausible a story is, and that's just a matter of taste. If you found this story to be too implausible to get into - well, that's certainly a valid opinion, but it's not something that you should be surprised about when others feel differently from you.

As I said above, I thought this was a good story but far from great. I must say, though, that I never found it implausible - for me, at least, this story was not a case of founding it hard to credit but enjoying it regardless, but I found it perfectly credible as I went along, and even hindsight didn't find too many faults on that side. I don't have any intelligent response to the questions about the audience reaction - it just didn't bother me and that's that, but as for the following point, you touched a minor pet peeve of mine:

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Why is this a Hugo nominee?!

Hugo nominees are selected by popular vote. Therefore, it must be the case that this story spoke to enough people who thought it was better than anything else out there this year. You're certainly not one of those people. Nor am I - I don't dislike the story but I feel there were a lot of better selections. Still, it's silly to be surprised that the tastes of others fail to match one's own.

Quote
Steve, you've wasted your money this time.  :(

Clearly not, since a lot of other people here seem to like it, many far more than I have. I doubt Steve's goal is to please all of the people, all of the time, and I'm pretty sure that a story that pleases a large percentage of his audience is considered far from a waste, even if you were not part of that percentage.

It's always valid to express your opinion, but it's nice to keep some perspective as well - if you start a post by pointing out that you are disagreeing with everyone else, don't end it by claiming that Steve failed to deliver.



SFEley

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Reply #34 on: June 06, 2007, 03:14:55 PM
Folks, let's ease back on the argument.  EnglishPhil didn't insult anyone, and a highly negative opinion on a work is just as valid as a highly positive one.

I'm sorry you didn't like it, Phil.  The best I can offer you is that this week we'll have different words in a different order.

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Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #35 on: June 06, 2007, 03:16:30 PM
Ouch, Thaur, that was quite a scorcher!

I think englishphil's comments are interesting because they remind me of something I'd commented on before, which is the matter of interpretation.  I think a big part of the idea behind this story, and what makes it fun, is the uncertainty as to actual nature of "Invasion."  Although I agree that phil's nitpicking is a bit extreme, some of his points are good, and they would add wieght to the "hoax" interpretation, which is the one I like.  It is not deffinitively stated in the story that there are any aliens, just that are certain people who think so.

My preffered intepretation is that there were no aliens at all: The whole thing was a very nice hoax, either pulled off by the network for profit or by geeks for glory.  All of flaws phil picked out are not flaws at all, in that case.  They make perfect sense if looked at from that perspective.

I like this story better the more I think about it, and I'm coming around to the view that this story isn't about aliens at all.  It's about sociology, what people want to believe and why and what sort of evidence convinces them.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2007, 03:19:14 PM by Mr. Tweedy »

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englishphil

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Reply #36 on: June 06, 2007, 04:27:25 PM
It certainly hadn't been my intention to pick a fight on this, and I'm sorry if that's how I came across. It is indeed highly likely that along the way I've missed a number of points - could it be that this is one of those stories which comes along sometimes that simply works better on the written page than in spoken word?

The thing is, while I'm not exactly bolted onto the hard end of the science fiction spectrum (case in point: my favourite recent EP - "The Angle Of My Dreams" - is probably not one that most of us would classify as hard SF) the stories I enjoy the most on EP tend to be the one that, at least on a fantastic level, make a certain credible sense - and I didn't get that with this one. To venture a suggestion somewhat out of left-field, maybe the concept behind the story would have worked better (or possibly would still work better, depending on the author's inclinations) in a longer narrative with more space to kick the ideas around. But that's just my view. My disbelief notwithstanding, it is a Hugo nominee so at the very least the concept is clearly interesting enough for a lot of people to enjoy.

I came off trollish, for which I do sincerely apologise. It was certainly not my intent.  :-[

As has been said - thanks eytanz - it is just a matter of taste. Part of that, I think, is the impression a given story leaves on you. Sometimes a story hooks you with a good first impression but seems to go downhill, others start weak but engage you enough as it goes on that the final impression is better than the beginning would have you believe. Some stories - too few and far between so much of the time - hit a home run on this score, and some just seem to miss the mark. This story was, for me, one of that latter category, and that was something of a first for me around here.

Lastly - and I'm shutting up on this topic now before I say anything else worth getting smacked around for ;D - Steve, you've got nothing to apologise for. You keep 'casting, I'll keep listening. Every once in a while, I might even pontificate...

Best all,

P.

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Thaurismunths

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Reply #37 on: June 06, 2007, 05:14:22 PM
See, there I go letting the real world get the better of me and being a perfect ass hole to someone who seems to have a fine head on their shoulders.

You have fine opinions Phil and I hope you'll keep bringing them up. You're new, and I am totally in the wrong here.

Sorry for being a dick everybody.

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englishphil

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Reply #38 on: June 06, 2007, 08:44:29 PM
<breaks self-imposed silence>
<brings humble pie for self>

Hey Thaur, on the "dick" stakes I figure I'm happy to call that one a fair fight if you are - it is, after all, not your fault that I listened more closely to the music than to the song this episode  :) No harm, no foul?

And - I tell thee truly - listing and trying to sell nearly £400 (probably about $750) worth of books on Amazon Marketplace does odd things to the brain... With that in mind it's probably a good thing I can't go to Yokohama...  :(

Oh yeah, bonus points to the first one to spot the Babylon 5 reference in the above! :P

Best,
P

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wakela

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Reply #39 on: June 07, 2007, 12:32:51 AM
Wow.  That was like the worst flamewar ever.

Quote
Does nobody consider the possibility that the Permian-era lizard that shows up in the series just before a very similar one is discovered in real life is nothing more than coincidence?

Actually, I heard the same thing happened in Jurassic Park.  Spielberg made his velociraptors 7 feet tall to make the scarier, even though actual 'raptors were 5 feet tall.  But then a 7 foot tall skeleton was discovered after the movie was made. 

 



slic

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Reply #40 on: June 07, 2007, 01:43:53 AM
Wow.  That was like the worst flamewar ever.
What's the emoticon for sarcasm?  I think you forgot to add it.  And I need it too :P



Thaurismunths

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Reply #41 on: June 07, 2007, 02:15:19 PM
No harm, no foul?
Done. : )

So, that being said, this was only "ok" in my book. Not exactly a gripping story, by any stretch, but it was actually the plodding pace that made it believable for me. I kept asking myself "Why doesn't someone just sit down and watch the whole series? Why is this just one at a time?" and that got me thinking about Firefly.
Now firefly is pretty much the exact opposite of these Eight Episodes, but similar in how it had its own cult following. There's only a dozen or so episodes, and got killed quickly, but for us geeks it's a goldmine of fandom. Its fame came after the show was murdered, and is slowly being digested by its fans. New truths, stories, inside jokes are being discovered, and ideas are being built off of them. For a small but growing population it has changed the way they view SF. The demand for spin-offs, toys, movies, videogames, and lunch boxes will grow with it.
This kind of avid fandom happens often in SF, so why not in Science?

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Reply #42 on: June 07, 2007, 06:57:44 PM
What a strange, charming story.  I certainly understand why it didn't work for everybody, but it worked well enough for me.  Didn't quite rise to the level of the first two I heard, but it's a worthy nominee.  Damn, this is a strong batch this year, isn't it.



wakela

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Reply #43 on: June 08, 2007, 01:31:44 AM
This reminded me of a show called Swan's Crossing that ran in 1992.  Sarah Michelle Gellar was in it.   Swan's Crossing was a horrible show.  it was a teen soap opera, and it only came on in the middle of the night, but my boss taped it for me.   I don't like stuff that's so-bad-it's-good like Plan 9 from Outer Space.   But there was stuff in it that was so strange and interesting that we couldn't help but think that the writers were geniuses.    I've never met anyone else who's heard of it.

But there were no aliens.  Nudebranchs, yes, but no aliens. 



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Reply #44 on: June 08, 2007, 01:20:50 PM
Something to ponder:

What if this isn't a story about aliens at all? What if this is actually a science fiction story about science fiction?

Do you prefer your SF hard science-based, like Prof. Smith, even if it means that nothing exciting and otherworldly will happen? Or do you agree with his son, blasting videogame spaceships and kicking alien butt? Or do you see yourself in Mary who had hope for the universe despite what she knew to be true? Do you go for fandom of canceled shows like Invasion (or Firefly)?  Or would an episode of nothing happening turn you off? Would you, like the Nobel laurate, invent alternate explanations for holes in the plot? Sure, you agree that there should be more diversity in SF, but would you identify with a tubby Indian with an unpronounceable name?

Maybe none of this is what the author intended, but reading the story with these questions in mind makes the story into an interesting debate about what science fiction should be.

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Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #45 on: June 08, 2007, 01:44:04 PM
I think you've got it.

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ajames

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Reply #46 on: June 09, 2007, 12:25:14 PM
As sayeth says, so sayeth I, I says.



VBurn

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Reply #47 on: June 11, 2007, 12:23:40 PM
Quote
Something to ponder:

What if this isn't a story about aliens at all? What if this is actually a science fiction story about science fiction?

That is just what the aliens what you to think!



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Reply #48 on: June 11, 2007, 08:02:38 PM
As sayeth says, so sayeth I, I says.
that was amazing. :P

PERSONALLY i enjoyed this story.  Yes it had holes, flaws, etc.  But i have a feeling it was meant to have holes, to let people interpret the story the way they want to.  after all, aliens are never pinned as the makers of the show.  Though it would be an interesting way to communicate with us.
it almost seems to be pointing out the radical suppositions of people in the face of something strange instead of trying to place the alien "what if" in there.

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


Planish

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Reply #49 on: July 08, 2007, 02:27:45 AM
It is not deffinitively stated in the story that there are any aliens, just that are certain people who think so.
I think it was strongly implied by the various things that were later discovered by scientists in different fields of study.

The story reminded me of two things:
1. The "Alien Autopsy" hoax film a few years ago.
2. The notion that the whole UFO Conspiracy business is a way for ThePowersThatBe to gradually reveal the existence of and the nature of aliens among us, and accustom the populace of Earth to them without actually allowing any incontrovertible evidence of them to get out, so as not to cause widespread panic. Different from the supposed MJ12, (Majestic, Majic, whatever,) plot which seeks to "cover it up" permanently by feeding the populace similar easily-discredited misinformation.

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