Author Topic: EP110: Frankie the Spook  (Read 34164 times)

Russell Nash

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on: June 14, 2007, 02:04:05 PM
EP110: Frankie the Spook

By Mike Resnick.
Read by Stephen Eley.

Marvin leaned forward and squinted at Bacon’s image on his computer screen. “Will you do it?”

“Will the greatest writer in the history of the human race ghostwrite your pitiful little novel?” sneered Bacon. “Absolutely not.”

“But you ghosted for Shakespeare!” protested Marvin. “That’s why I had my computer assemble you.”

“Marvin, go write limpware and leave me alone.”

“It’s called software.”


Rated PG. Rated PG. Contains some coarse language and imagery, and potentially offensive literary theories.



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eytanz

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Reply #1 on: June 14, 2007, 03:54:53 PM
Not one of my favorites - it was amusing, but it was basically a silly joke stretched out and played with one-dimensional characters. I could easily see this as an SNL skit with barely any modification.



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Reply #2 on: June 14, 2007, 05:28:38 PM
I'm afraid this one gets a big 'meh' from me.  It's not that there's anything especially bad about it (characterisation, plot and theme are all present and correct) but there's nothing especially good about it.  There's only really one joke in the whole thing that's spread over the whole story, and it's not an especially funny one.

The most interesting idea, historical figures being trapped as programs by hackers, is pretty much incidental.  It might have been far more interesting to other historical characters appear (especially if Shakespeare himself were included).

To be honest, this story has a simplicity of style and content that would best lend itself to being a Kid's story, this is especially apparent since it follows last week's Squonk the Apprentice.

It did entertain me while I was at work, though, and I can't ask for much more of a story than that.  I don't think I'll be listening to it again any time soon, though.

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Reply #3 on: June 14, 2007, 06:22:00 PM
:) im not even halfway through this story and I am really liking it.  It is, in my opinion, very amusing.  Its not especially amazing like some other stories *cough*Nightfall*cough* but im enjoying the reading!

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


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Reply #4 on: June 14, 2007, 06:26:57 PM
I had a good time listening to this one.  "Limpware" made me chuckle out loud at work.


VBurn

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Reply #5 on: June 14, 2007, 09:48:46 PM
I would like to hear the story of the poor hacker who assemble Bill Shakespeare only to find out he could not write a lick.



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Reply #6 on: June 14, 2007, 11:48:55 PM
There is something about this story that makes people want to perform it. After its initial sale, I resold it to 9 other countries, and a few more times in the US, which is pretty much par for the course, and I thought that was the end of it. But then the University of Michigan asked my permission to adapt is as a play (which I gave them), and I -knew- that was the last I'd hear about "Frankie the Spook". Then a Polish theatre group got permission to adapt it, and their production won the Warsaw Arts Festival. Two science fiction conventions have adapted it. And last month, 17 years after it first appeared and long after I was dead certain everyone had forgotten it, I sold Polish radio rights to it. I freely admit that it's just a piece of fluff, but for reasons that elude me it's a piece of fluff that refuses to die.

-- Mike Resnick



Russell Nash

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Reply #7 on: June 15, 2007, 07:44:15 AM
There is something about this story that makes people want to perform it. After its initial sale, I resold it to 9 other countries, and a few more times in the US, which is pretty much par for the course, and I thought that was the end of it. But then the University of Michigan asked my permission to adapt is as a play (which I gave them), and I -knew- that was the last I'd hear about "Frankie the Spook". Then a Polish theatre group got permission to adapt it, and their production won the Warsaw Arts Festival. Two science fiction conventions have adapted it. And last month, 17 years after it first appeared and long after I was dead certain everyone had forgotten it, I sold Polish radio rights to it. I freely admit that it's just a piece of fluff, but for reasons that elude me it's a piece of fluff that refuses to die.

-- Mike Resnick

It's just a really fun piece of fluff.  I had this going while I was stuck during something stupid and dirty.  It kept me amused and smiling even when I wanted to curse at what I was doing.



madjo

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Reply #8 on: June 15, 2007, 09:04:04 AM
Intriguing idea of a ghostwriter for Shakespeare... of course that's just utter bs! (in case Francis Bacon is reading this :P just to rile him up)

I enjoyed the story, though it wasn't one of the greatest. It was a fun way to pass my commute.
And yeah "limpware" is a funny description of "software". :) (I know a few programs that fits that title)



Listener

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Reply #9 on: June 15, 2007, 12:07:27 PM
As I often prefer to write about people and let the situations sort themselves out, I appreciated the give-and-take.  The fact that the whole story was basically several conversations with only incidental scene-setting appealed to me. 

The punch at the end was a good one, though the moment Marvin met Fritz, I had a feeling it was coming.  But then, figuring out the ending and then seeing if you're right is something we all do, whether we're reading a story or watching TV or a movie -- hell, last night my wife and I were watching an episode of Smallville and trying to figure out how Lois's memory was going to be modified to forget Clark's superpowers yet again.

The idea of a software programmer building a simulacrum of Francis Bacon -- or anyone -- is interesting, but given that it would take a monstrous computer to handle the sheer amount of synaptic connections in a human brain (at least, the last time I read something about it), one wonders how Marvin had enough time to program that.  I guess that's where his advance went.

In the reading, I noticed the adverbs attached to the dialogue tags (he said indignantly) mostly because I try to eliminate those in my own writing, emulating more of a Frank-Herbert-in-the-5th-and-6th-Dune-Books style of dialogue.  I realize they're there because when you're reading a story the author's trying to tell you what the characters are feeling, but when a story is read to you, usually the actor reading it can convey the emotions without them.  But in the interest of completeness, you wouldn't want to omit the author's words.  That's just a general pet peeve about reading stories out loud, I guess.

Overall, though, I liked the story.

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Swamp

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Reply #10 on: June 15, 2007, 03:55:31 PM
This was a very fun story.  I love stories that are heavy on dialogue and this one definitely qualifies.  I can see why it is so easily adapted to a play.  It sounded like Steve had fun reading it too.

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Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #11 on: June 15, 2007, 07:21:10 PM
I'm surprised no one else has thought of this, but this story is surely most harrowing depiction of hell outside of Dante himself!  Alas, poor bacon!

I guess I'm on safe ground if I stand with the author of the story: Fun fluff.  A decent joke and enough to entertain, but not great.

Sorry if this seems like sycophancy, but the thing that really struck me most was Steve's intro.  Wise words, and words that I, at least, can certainly apply to myself.  I have definitely tendency to obsess on one goal or one issue to the exclusion of others, so that an activity I enjoy or a subject that interests me can become a burden instead of a pleasure.  I can think of myself as a character in a story about me achieving all these great goals, and the many deviations from that story become frustrating.  But I might never reach most of those goals and not all of them are as important as I might think.  It's important to appreciate the things in life now and not think of them as merely stepping-stones to a future that might never occur.  That's a set-up for many levels of disappointment.

Good insights and well-stated, Steve.

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SFEley

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Reply #12 on: June 16, 2007, 12:36:53 AM
Good insights and well-stated, Steve.

Thanks, Mr. Tweedy.  I have to confess I feel it was a mistake.  In the context in which I intended it (some personal relationship stuff) I was completely and drastically wrong.  And now I'm kicking myself hard.

So it really is good to know that it was useful to other people in other ways.

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slic

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Reply #13 on: June 16, 2007, 03:10:57 AM
It's insightful to hear a professional author say he knows when he's written a piece of fluff.  I'm sure it's the same in all professions, I write code, and there are times when it's sharp and clever, and others where it's just run of the mill, get-my-cheque kind of thing.  It's something of a relief to know that "art" doesn't always have to awe-inspiring.



ajames

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Reply #14 on: June 17, 2007, 11:53:22 AM
When I listened to this, it seemed to me that Steve had fun reading this, Mr. Resnick had fun writing it, and I had fun listening to it.  All in all not a bad way to spend 30 minutes or so.

And Steve, as someone who has more than once done something in personal relationships intended one way, only to have them backfire badly [and who hasn't?], I feel your pain. 

But I too was impressed with your words of wisdom.



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Reply #15 on: June 17, 2007, 03:56:40 PM
Sorry Resnick, this was definitely the weakest piece I've heard from you (I loved everything else of yours that Escape Pod featured.) Although the other commentators are right in saying that it's good to write a fluff piece just for the hell of it. But there was an interesting concept you had; No matter how good someone's creative work is, it will always be seen through the lens of other works or one's previous work. Can you imagine the expectations for JK Rowling after she's moved beyond Harry Potter?



Russell Nash

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Reply #16 on: June 18, 2007, 07:14:32 AM
Can you imagine the expectations for JK Rowling after she's moved beyond Harry Potter?

I think she'll just lie on top of a huge mountain of money and not worry about it.



Kaa

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Reply #17 on: June 18, 2007, 06:28:52 PM
I think she'll just lie on top of a huge mountain of money and not worry about it.
I'd say the word shouldn't be "lie" but "bask." :)

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Dwango

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Reply #18 on: June 18, 2007, 09:44:54 PM
I found the piece rather amusing and the reading well suited to Eley's voicing for added humour.

It was deeper than fluff since it referenced the existing arguments for authorship of Shakespeare's works.
The "Will the greatest writer in the history of the human race ghostwrite your pitiful little novel?" obviously references sonnet 136:

Whoever hath her wish, thou hast thy Will,
And Will to boot, and Will in overplus;
More than enough am I that vex thee still,
To thy sweet will making addition thus. (the italics and capitalisation are those of the original text)

Used by both sides of the Bacon/Shakespeare argument to prove and disprove Shakespeare's authoring of his works.

Of course, I could be analyzing this too much.  :)



SFEley

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Reply #19 on: June 19, 2007, 01:49:25 AM
The "Will the greatest writer in the history of the human race ghostwrite your pitiful little novel?" obviously references sonnet 136:

Whoever hath her wish, thou hast thy Will,
And Will to boot, and Will in overplus;
More than enough am I that vex thee still,
To thy sweet will making addition thus. (the italics and capitalisation are those of the original text)

That's Sonnet 135, actually.  136 is also full of 'Will' puns, but 135 is much dirtier, especially if one of my English teachers was right that 'will' was an Elizabethan euphemism.

("Wilt thou, whose will is large and spacious,
Not once vouchsafe to hide my will in thine?")

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Thaurismunths

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Reply #20 on: June 19, 2007, 12:03:02 PM
The intro struck a cord with me. I'm kind of a fringe SF/geek who has many hardcore, card-carrying friends. Something I've seen come up often are people who have read a few too many SF and are trying to live their lives as though they were one of those heroes. They buy fantasy weapons they can't use and believe that your life should be lived to uphold a single ideal. The most popular and comprehensive ideal seems to be *HONOR*, and that with enough *HONOR* or the right kind of *HONOR* life, love, and happiness will be yours. *HONOR* comes from slaying dragons, righting wrongs, saving the damsel/planet, or beating the unbeatable odds. That's what the Hero does. Unfortunately there isn't much in fiction (that I've seen) that highlights the heroism, dedication, and honorability of doing a good day's work, paying your bills on time, putting your kid through college, and saving for retirement. That's what "Farmer #6082" does, and although he never gets a sword of power to pass on to his son, he won't get caught changing a diaper while wearing a broadsword and loincloth.

The story was good, and "limpware" was a great line, but since we have the author here I thought I'd ask:
Mr. Resnic, have you updated this story since you wrote it 17 years ago?
17 years ago my family didn't have a PC, and I'm not entirely sure I'd ever heard of E-mail. How did you come up with putting the bards in a box?

How do you fight a bully that can un-make history?


Jonathan C. Gillespie

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Reply #21 on: June 19, 2007, 12:12:42 PM
Good insights and well-stated, Steve.

Thanks, Mr. Tweedy.  I have to confess I feel it was a mistake.  In the context in which I intended it (some personal relationship stuff) I was completely and drastically wrong.  And now I'm kicking myself hard.

Don't you dare.  You couldn't have picked a better week to run this intro.  I completely picked up on where you were coming from, and I found it very helpful.

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eytanz

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Reply #22 on: June 19, 2007, 12:35:04 PM
Mr. Resnic, have you updated this story since you wrote it 17 years ago?

17 years ago? That was 1990. In 1990, I was 13, and I already owned my third computer (sequentially, not at the same time), and my father had what must have been his fourth or fifth. I was subscribed to popular computer magazines, which at the time were all very new and excited about the possibilities of the future.

1990 was eight years after the release of Tron, four years after the release of Short Circuit. It was five years after the release of Weird Science, which is also found on the premise that people can just create life on a computer, and that that life will be entirely human in its disposition and psychology but superhuman in its abilities, and that its creator will apparently have no direct control over it - not because he lost control, but apparently because the way you program computers is to tell them to do something ("Assemble Francis Bacon!") and leave all the details up to it.

I'm curious if Mike Resnic feels the same or I'm totally off-base, but for me this is a story that was far more likely to have been written - as is - in the late 80s than today.



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Reply #23 on: June 19, 2007, 07:40:44 PM
Can you imagine the expectations for JK Rowling after she's moved beyond Harry Potter?

I think she'll just lie on top of a huge mountain of money and not worry about it.

I heard that she's hired an infinite number of monkeys...


SFEley

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Reply #24 on: June 19, 2007, 08:11:24 PM
Don't you dare.  You couldn't have picked a better week to run this intro.  I completely picked up on where you were coming from, and I found it very helpful.

Thanks, but no, seriously, dude.  In my personal context, I was wrong.  What I said in the intro may not have been wrong in itself, but identifying what was going on as that sort of problem was a mistake.

(And yeah, this is probably getting too personal for the story comments thread, so I'll shut up about it now before I have to move myself to another board.)  >8->

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SFEley

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Reply #25 on: June 19, 2007, 08:14:02 PM
I heard that she's hired an infinite number of monkeys...

Heh.  For general amusement, here's the quotation I almost used at the end of the episode:

“I heard someone tried the monkeys-on-typewriters bit trying for the plays of W. Shakespeare, but all they got was the collected works of Francis Bacon.”
 -- Bill Hirst

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sayeth

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Reply #26 on: June 19, 2007, 08:27:42 PM
I think the whole avoidance of mentioning how Marvin created the program was an acknowledgment that doing such a thing would be impossible. The only way for this story to work is to plea for the reader to not think about it too deeply and just go along with a suspension of disbelief. That's okay. Humor SF is a subgenre where in certain circumstances you can get away with asking your readers to accept something incredible at face value.

As for me, I like to assume that Marvin engaged in some unholy combination of necromancy and programming. Otherwise, how could Bacon know the things only he knows?

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Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #27 on: June 19, 2007, 08:53:19 PM
The "Will the greatest writer in the history of the human race ghostwrite your pitiful little novel?" obviously references sonnet 136:

Whoever hath her wish, thou hast thy Will,
And Will to boot, and Will in overplus;
More than enough am I that vex thee still,
To thy sweet will making addition thus. (the italics and capitalisation are those of the original text)

That's Sonnet 135, actually.  136 is also full of 'Will' puns, but 135 is much dirtier, especially if one of my English teachers was right that 'will' was an Elizabethan euphemism.

("Wilt thou, whose will is large and spacious,
Not once vouchsafe to hide my will in thine?")


You guys are all way too smart.  Go play Mario Kart or something.    8)

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Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #28 on: June 19, 2007, 09:55:50 PM
The intro struck a cord with me. I'm kind of a fringe SF/geek who has many hardcore, card-carrying friends. Something I've seen come up often are people who have read a few too many SF and are trying to live their lives as though they were one of those heroes. They buy fantasy weapons they can't use and believe that your life should be lived to uphold a single ideal. The most popular and comprehensive ideal seems to be *HONOR*, and that with enough *HONOR* or the right kind of *HONOR* life, love, and happiness will be yours. *HONOR* comes from slaying dragons, righting wrongs, saving the damsel/planet, or beating the unbeatable odds. That's what the Hero does. Unfortunately there isn't much in fiction (that I've seen) that highlights the heroism, dedication, and honorability of doing a good day's work, paying your bills on time, putting your kid through college, and saving for retirement. That's what "Farmer #6082" does, and although he never gets a sword of power to pass on to his son, he won't get caught changing a diaper while wearing a broadsword and loincloth.

Frodo had to destroy the Ring to protect the Shire.  It wasn't some macho quest to get "honor."

A hero uses what strength they have to protect what is good in the world, rather that protection is done by wielding a sword, a pen, or just a mop.  A hero loves the Shire, and so goes to Mordor.  He doesn't go because fighting orcs sounds fun.

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mike-resnick

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Reply #29 on: June 20, 2007, 01:38:28 AM


The story was good, and "limpware" was a great line, but since we have the author here I thought I'd ask:
Mr. Resnic, have you updated this story since you wrote it 17 years ago?
17 years ago my family didn't have a PC, and I'm not entirely sure I'd ever heard of E-mail. How did you come up with putting the bards in a box?
[/quote]

No, I never update my stories. Once they're sold, they're history. I've probably done 150 since this one. Besides, as I said earlier, it's just a piece of fluff, a few minutes of humor. Even if I did update, this is hardly the kind I'd spend the time on. I've made more than my share of money on it, and I'm pleased with it, but I'm a lot closer to the end of my life than the beginning, and I still have a ton of new stories to tell.

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Reply #30 on: June 20, 2007, 01:46:41 AM
Mr. Resnic, have you updated this story since you wrote it 17 years ago?

17 years ago? That was 1990. In 1990, I was 13, and I already owned my third computer (sequentially, not at the same time), and my father had what must have been his fourth or fifth. I was subscribed to popular computer magazines, which at the time were all very new and excited about the possibilities of the future.

1990 was eight years after the release of Tron, four years after the release of Short Circuit. It was five years after the release of Weird Science, which is also found on the premise that people can just create life on a computer, and that that life will be entirely human in its disposition and psychology but superhuman in its abilities, and that its creator will apparently have no direct control over it - not because he lost control, but apparently because the way you program computers is to tell them to do something ("Assemble Francis Bacon!") and leave all the details up to it.

I'm curious if Mike Resnic feels the same or I'm totally off-base, but for me this is a story that was far more likely to have been written - as is - in the late 80s than today.

Well, since it appeared in 1990, I assume I wrote it in 1989. I remember this: it was commissioned for an anthology of stories about simulicrons of historical people created inside computers,  interacting with people in the here and now. I wrote it, sent it in, and the editor, who shall remain nameless since he's a good friend and I've sold him a few stories since, told me that I wasn't taking his theme seriously and that he'd like me to remove the humor. Well, hell, it's a ludicrous theme, and I liked the humor, so I pulled it, faxed it to F&SF, and sold it about an hour later. And have sold it all around the world ever since, which means someone else must agree with me that it is impossible to take such a theme seriously.

Someone else here asked how Bacon was assembled. Beats the hell out of me. All I know how to do with my computer is write stories and answer e-mail. As madSimon will be happy to tell you, disgustedly and at length, I have very little use for science in my stories, and even less interest in it.

-- Mike Resnick



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Reply #31 on: June 20, 2007, 10:44:56 AM
Quote
As madSimon will be happy to tell you, disgustedly and at length, I have very little use for science in my stories, and even less interest in it.

*sigh* I've pointed this out several times already, and I'm going to do it once more, though I don't think I'll have the enthusiasm after this.

I *don't* and *never have* considered the SF/Not SF debate to be important.  I raised it as a comment on the thread for your last story purely because this is an SF podcast.  I'm quite happy to read stories with a minimal science content.  On this story, for example, I thought that the lack of science was entirely appropriate to the style of the story.

The *main* point I raised with that previous story was it's lack of plot.  Really.  You seem to have stereotyped me as a 'Resnick-hating-SF-Nerd' I only debated the point because I found it an interesting thought exercise, and I would hope that the same is true of those that joined in.

I should point out that the most insightfull comment about the whole debate was made by Slic on page 5, concerning the categorisation of Tomatoes as either Fruit of Vegetables, depending on who you ask.  Though rather than commenting on this, you made a frivolous comment about not writing 'Sci-Fi'.

I don't rate stories based on their SF content, I rate them on Plotting, Characterisation, Focus and Setting.  It's one or two of these that I found lacking on that last story.  Rather than discussing these points, though, you've ignored them and continued to raise the SF/Not SF debate, which is a non-issue to me.

And, for the record, I enjoyed Travels with My Cats, when it appeared here, and it doesn't get any less SF than that!

So please, can we just let this SF/Not SF matter drop?  Or at least, leave my name out of it, it's really not something I'm involved with.

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ajames

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Reply #32 on: June 20, 2007, 10:46:29 AM
The most popular and comprehensive ideal seems to be *HONOR*, and that with enough *HONOR* or the right kind of *HONOR* life, love, and happiness will be yours. *HONOR* comes from slaying dragons, righting wrongs, saving the damsel/planet, or beating the unbeatable odds. That's what the Hero does. Unfortunately there isn't much in fiction (that I've seen) that highlights the heroism, dedication, and honorability of doing a good day's work, paying your bills on time, putting your kid through college, and saving for retirement.

I also admit [as Thaurismunths does earlier in his post quoted here] to not being the most avid scifi/fantasy fan.  But in my case I have loved what I have read, just haven't read widely enough.  That is part of the reason I love EP so much, it exposes me to stories I otherwise wouldn't hear or read, most of which I enjoy, and some of which have been amazing.  Mr. Resnick's "Travels with Cats" story was one of the first EP stories I listened to, and never in a million years would I have picked to read a story with that title.  And I enjoyed it.

So, maybe I have been lucky, but what I have read [and heard] in scifi and fantasy has been very diverse in style and theme, and even when there are dragons to be slain, there is often just as much sympathy for the dragon and/or nuances in the development of the story or hero's character that keep it interesting.  And although the high action of many stories may seem to remove the ideals of love, duty, honor, etc. from daily life, the successful stories remind us that these ideals are indeed at the core of our everyday struggles, even if these struggles have none of the glamour of the epic struggle the hero is often engaqed in.

Gotta go, the kids are calling. 



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Reply #33 on: June 20, 2007, 11:04:06 AM
Hello All,

Just wanted to stand behind MadSimonJ...  There appears to be a growing consensus (or weakening will) against those who keep standing up and saying "when I ordered this sf story, I did not ask for mayonnaise", even Slic hasn't stood up on this one.

Let's just make it clear.. I hate mayonnaise,  it's a continental thing that is turning up all over my food, and if I get mayonnaise between my crusty bap and my burger... Well, I am sending that burger back.

Mike Resnick likes mayonnaise - fair enough, I'll let him continue being a continental mayo-eating pervert.

But if I (and those like me) don't keep standing up and saying that I hate mayo, I'll get it on my bloody chips as well as my burger.

Down with mayo (with the greatest respect, Mr Resnick)

Thus, please, if Simon Painter doesn't want his name taken in vain, you are welcome to use mine.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 11:16:31 AM by Simon »



Thaurismunths

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Reply #34 on: June 20, 2007, 11:55:41 AM
Mr. Resnic, have you updated this story since you wrote it 17 years ago?

17 years ago? That was 1990. In 1990, I was 13, and I already owned my third computer (sequentially, not at the same time), and my father had what must have been his fourth or fifth. I was subscribed to popular computer magazines, which at the time were all very new and excited about the possibilities of the future.

1990 was eight years after the release of Tron, four years after the release of Short Circuit. It was five years after the release of Weird Science, which is also found on the premise that people can just create life on a computer, and that that life will be entirely human in its disposition and psychology but superhuman in its abilities, and that its creator will apparently have no direct control over it - not because he lost control, but apparently because the way you program computers is to tell them to do something ("Assemble Francis Bacon!") and leave all the details up to it.

I'm curious if Mike Resnic feels the same or I'm totally off-base, but for me this is a story that was far more likely to have been written - as is - in the late 80s than today.

*L* I r teh lamez!
See, back in 1990, I was 9. We didn't rent Short Circuit, Weird Science, or Tron 'till I was a few years older. I didn't think to go back and look at when they were made. So I guess I'm just not as in awe of Mike's forethought. Sorry Mike. ;)
Great story all the same.

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Thaurismunths

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Reply #35 on: June 20, 2007, 12:36:23 PM
The intro struck a cord with me. I'm kind of a fringe SF/geek who has many hardcore, card-carrying friends. Something I've seen come up often are people who have read a few too many SF and are trying to live their lives as though they were one of those heroes. They buy fantasy weapons they can't use and believe that your life should be lived to uphold a single ideal. The most popular and comprehensive ideal seems to be *HONOR*, and that with enough *HONOR* or the right kind of *HONOR* life, love, and happiness will be yours. *HONOR* comes from slaying dragons, righting wrongs, saving the damsel/planet, or beating the unbeatable odds. That's what the Hero does. Unfortunately there isn't much in fiction (that I've seen) that highlights the heroism, dedication, and honorability of doing a good day's work, paying your bills on time, putting your kid through college, and saving for retirement. That's what "Farmer #6082" does, and although he never gets a sword of power to pass on to his son, he won't get caught changing a diaper while wearing a broadsword and loincloth.

Frodo had to destroy the Ring to protect the Shire.  It wasn't some macho quest to get "honor."

A hero uses what strength they have to protect what is good in the world, rather that protection is done by wielding a sword, a pen, or just a mop.  A hero loves the Shire, and so goes to Mordor.  He doesn't go because fighting orcs sounds fun.
That's a great example. Thank you.
First off, I have NO PROBLEM with fictional characters. They live in fictional worlds that have real wizards, and swords, and dragons, and kings, and jedi, and magic rings, and triffids, and zombies, and floating castles, and cyborgs, and time machines, and... That's fiction. Fiction is great. I'm talking about the real world.
The hero of Lord of the Rings isn't Frodo, he's just some simpering hobbit. ;) The real hero is Samwise.
Frodo got the ring by chance or fate, but it was Sam who had the courage and strength to press on and take Frodo to Mount Doom and complete the quest, showing caring, dedication, courage, honor, and compassion the whole way. If Sam hadn't been there to carry most of the luggage, cook, keep watch, ration the food, and bolster Frodo's confidence Frodo wouldn't have ever made it. But few people remember Sam as the hero, it's always Frodo, and that's what I'm talking about. 
I love stories about rings and swords and dragons, and I'm not alone. There's a reason they're so popular and people can make money writing them. Some even leave you with a warm glow deep in your chest that makes you want to live up to your full potential, to be a great warrior in your own right. That is an admirable thing for a book to do. What I mean to say is that there is a population of people who read too many of these books, watch too many movies, and take them too much to heart. That they focus on Frodo and ignore Sam.
They would rather play, or dream of playing, the big part than tow the line or do the unpleasant tasks. Standing watch and minding rations is boring, droll, and thankless, but will ultimately make more difference than who actual pockets the ring. The same thing goes for making sure bills get paid and floors get vacuumed vs. being the "cool dad." It's the difference between someone who reads fiction about being a hero (or playing one on the computer), rather than showing up for all the PTA meetings, getting to work on time, and makes all their kid's baseball games.
Back to my point about *HONOR*. There are people who would rather live under fiction's protective wing and dream of themselves as an *HONORABLE* warrior and never have their mettle tested, than to stand watch all the boring hours (eg. go to work) and test themselves against adversities of life.

Edit: Ok, I take back the thing about zombies being fictional.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 02:50:51 PM by Thaurismunths »

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Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #36 on: June 20, 2007, 01:26:32 PM
Preach it, Thaur!  Second to all that.

Hear my very very short story on The Drabblecast!


mike-resnick

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Reply #37 on: June 20, 2007, 05:51:41 PM

Mike Resnick likes mayonnaise - fair enough, I'll let him continue being a continental mayo-eating pervert.

But if I (and those like me) don't keep standing up and saying that I hate mayo, I'll get it on my bloody chips as well as my burger.

Down with mayo (with the greatest respect, Mr Resnick)

Thus, please, if Simon Painter doesn't want his name taken in vain, you are welcome to use mine.
[/quote]

A conspiracy of Simons???

What the hell; you've got a point. If I were you, I'd ask Steve for my
money back.   ;-)

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Simon

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Reply #38 on: June 20, 2007, 10:34:15 PM
You're welcome Mr Resnick, however let me put it another way again...

As far as I am concerned, Steve Eley is a monopoly supplier...  He's a monopoly supplier of Escape Pods.  With a monopoly supplier you don't ask for your money back (you still need them, after all).  No, you badger, cajole, and irritate until finally you resort to litigation...

Because while there may be other podcasts of SF out there,  there is only one that produces Escape Pods.

Anyway,  Final admission, that somewhat undermines our argument:

I loved this story.  I actually listened to it twice in the course of today I enjoyed it so much.  It didn't have to press my mind elevating SF button when the story is just this much fun.  I loved the tone, I loved the development, and I loved the fact that while I spotted every change of direction coming, I never spotted the one after the next (and by my estimate there are 4).  The other Resnick stories i've encountered on EP have hit appreciation but not enjoyment.  While this one was just great, on every level it aimed at.  I've long loved these SF stories based on bad puns (Sturgeon's best was "The Girl Had Guts", and Knight's best was "How to Serve Man"), where you ark out a whole bloody short story from one really bad pun.

I finished listening to it and just felt good afterwards.  Thank you Mike, for making my evening just better.



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Reply #39 on: June 20, 2007, 11:28:13 PM
Simon:

OK, you get to live.

-- Mike



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Reply #40 on: June 21, 2007, 04:42:27 AM
Hmph.  Missed paying attention to all of this for a day or so.

Ordinarily I'd be up in arms about even the hint of personal insults going back and forth, but...  Well, you all are just so cute.


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Loz

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Reply #41 on: June 21, 2007, 08:37:01 PM
I really enjoyed this story, I suppose that if we found out what Marvin got out of the deal that would have blown the 'cast's PG rating right? It also reminded me of that Asimov short about the professor who builds a time machine, brings Shakespeare to the 'present' [ie: the 60s] and enrolls him in a course on his work, only to have the teaching professor flunk poor Will for not knowing the first thing about what the great Bard's works mean.



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Reply #42 on: June 21, 2007, 10:48:14 PM
It also reminded me of that Asimov short about the professor who builds a time machine, brings Shakespeare to the 'present' [ie: the 60s] and enrolls him in a course on his work, only to have the teaching professor flunk poor Will for not knowing the first thing about what the great Bard's works mean.

A variant on this joke was probably the best thing about the movie Back to School - Rodney Dangerfield's character hires Kurt Vonnegut to write an essay about his own work, which then gets an F (or some other low grade) for the same reason. What made it great was that Vonnegut played himself...



slic

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Reply #43 on: June 22, 2007, 11:33:16 AM
...even Slic hasn't stood up on this one.
A few reasons contributed to my "limp" posting.  The most notable being that the author already admitted to the fluffiness of the piece.  At that point, for me, it would have been like picking on the Squonk stories.  And I can never bring myself to argue Steve's story choices, only if I thought the piece was any good.
The other reason had to do with the story's age - after 17 years the story is rusted into place.  I'm not surprised that it has sold well or that it has been acted so much - it's a fun, simple piece with a giggle ending - all at the cost of an arrogant ass of a character.
Like Simon P (formerly madSimonJ) I appreciated the lack of explanation, in the same way that the Time Travel mechanism of "Twelve Monkeys" is never even seen on screen - it is pointless to the plot and if anything would detract from the story.

Personally, it was a "meh" for me, but I've never been a fan of mayo anyway (those crazy Dutch).

I'm curious to know if Mr. Resnick doesn't also hold the record for most published author at Escape Pod, off the top of my head I count 5.
edit:So I couldn't help myself and did a quick search on escapepod.org Episodes #55, 73, 82, 92, 101, 110.  I missed #55.

Quote from: Thaurismunths
The hero of Lord of the Rings isn't Frodo, he's just some simpering hobbit.  The real hero is Samwise.
Abso-freakin'-lutely!!  And that's all I need to say to that.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2007, 11:41:59 AM by slic »



Swamp

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Reply #44 on: June 22, 2007, 03:03:38 PM
There appears to be a growing consensus (or weakening will) against those who keep standing up and saying "when I ordered this sf story, I did not ask for mayonnaise", even Slic hasn't stood up on this one.

Let's just make it clear.. I hate mayonnaise,  it's a continental thing that is turning up all over my food, and if I get mayonnaise between my crusty bap and my burger... Well, I am sending that burger back.

Mike Resnick likes mayonnaise - fair enough, I'll let him continue being a continental mayo-eating pervert.

But if I (and those like me) don't keep standing up and saying that I hate mayo, I'll get it on my bloody chips as well as my burger.

Down with mayo

...I've never been a fan of mayo anyway (those crazy Dutch).

OK, I have to admit that I don't get the mayo reference.  Maybe I'm just slow.  Is it a reference to this as a fluff piece?  Simon, please explain for us who are metaphoically challanged at the moment.



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Thaurismunths

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Reply #45 on: June 22, 2007, 03:45:23 PM
Hey. Why do you have to be hating on the Dutch like that?
Didn't we bring you those stylish wooden shoes? And windmills! And bikes on dykes ('come on, this is a family friendly site)! And Slavery!

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slic

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Reply #46 on: June 22, 2007, 05:43:55 PM
OK, I have to admit that I don't get the mayo reference.  Maybe I'm just slow.  Is it a reference to this as a fluff piece? 
The comment comes from the Dutch putting mayonnaise on french fries (see Pulp Fiction for corroboration) and hamburgers ,etc. 

I believe it's a reference to having stuff added to the story that isn't what we wanted or asked for, or perhaps, expected.  Going back to my old Dept store analogy - I don't expect to find Barbie clothes in with the kids clothes.  And to exaggerate the example if I ask for a burger and fires, I don't expect a drumstick with it.

Mr. Resnick's forte is the emotions of the story, as he put it "I have very little use for science in my stories, and even less interest in it.".  However, this is a science fiction podcast so it should be the norm that science is in the story.



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Reply #47 on: June 22, 2007, 08:59:04 PM
The comment comes from the Dutch putting mayonnaise on french fries (see Pulp Fiction for corroboration) and hamburgers ,etc. 

I believe it's a reference to having stuff added to the story that isn't what we wanted or asked for, or perhaps, expected.  Going back to my old Dept store analogy - I don't expect to find Barbie clothes in with the kids clothes.  And to exaggerate the example if I ask for a burger and fires, I don't expect a drumstick with it.

Mr. Resnick's forte is the emotions of the story, as he put it "I have very little use for science in my stories, and even less interest in it.".  However, this is a science fiction podcast so it should be the norm that science is in the story.

Got it now, thanks.

I think there is room for hard sf and loosely science-based specutalive fiction.  I enjoy a good sampling of both, or anything in between.  And, while not a requirement, I do like a good emotional connection to the characters.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2007, 09:02:56 PM by kmmrlatham »

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Reply #48 on: June 23, 2007, 10:23:09 AM
OK, I have to admit that I don't get the mayo reference.  Maybe I'm just slow.  Is it a reference to this as a fluff piece?
The comment comes from the Dutch putting mayonnaise on french fries (see Pulp Fiction for corroboration) and hamburgers ,etc. 

I believe it's a reference to having stuff added to the story that isn't what we wanted or asked for, or perhaps, expected.  Going back to my old Dept store analogy - I don't expect to find Barbie clothes in with the kids clothes.  And to exaggerate the example if I ask for a burger and fires, I don't expect a drumstick with it.

Mr. Resnick's forte is the emotions of the story, as he put it "I have very little use for science in my stories, and even less interest in it.".  However, this is a science fiction podcast so it should be the norm that science is in the story.


Exactly what Slic just said...  It's becoming increasingly common on this little island (Britain) for foodstuffs to have ever increasing amounts of Mayonnaise slopped on them, its part of London's status as the financial/cultural capital of Europe. 

Basically tho, this is in reference to a long running argument between Slic, Resnick, MadSimonJ, myself and a few others that has been running on the threads of Antarean Dynasties, Travels With My Cats and Barnaby In Exile.  If you want the background I suggest you wander over there.



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Reply #49 on: June 24, 2007, 05:04:16 AM
Steve --

As long as we're all still arguing about what science fiction is and isn't,
is it ok if I upload the editorial I have running in the current issue of
Jim Baen's Universe, which was inspired by all the discussion right
here on Escape Pod?

Mike Resnick



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Reply #50 on: June 24, 2007, 06:58:00 PM
OK, I have to admit that I don't get the mayo reference.  Maybe I'm just slow.  Is it a reference to this as a fluff piece?
The comment comes from the Dutch putting mayonnaise on french fries (see Pulp Fiction for corroboration) and hamburgers ,etc. 

I believe it's a reference to having stuff added to the story that isn't what we wanted or asked for, or perhaps, expected.  Going back to my old Dept store analogy - I don't expect to find Barbie clothes in with the kids clothes.  And to exaggerate the example if I ask for a burger and fires, I don't expect a drumstick with it.

Mr. Resnick's forte is the emotions of the story, as he put it "I have very little use for science in my stories, and even less interest in it.".  However, this is a science fiction podcast so it should be the norm that science is in the story.


Exactly what Slic just said...  It's becoming increasingly common on this little island (Britain) for foodstuffs to have ever increasing amounts of Mayonnaise slopped on them, its part of London's status as the financial/cultural capital of Europe. 

Basically tho, this is in reference to a long running argument between Slic, Resnick, MadSimonJ, myself and a few others that has been running on the threads of Antarean Dynasties, Travels With My Cats and Barnaby In Exile.  If you want the background I suggest you wander over there.


There's something that hit me about this whole conversation.  This is a science fiction  and fantasy podcaast.  Change the silmacrum in the box to an image in a mirror someone summoned and no one would be complaining that this isn't a modern fantasy piece.  The idea of SF/F is that you get worlds or happenings that can't exist without special help.  In this story the help is a computer, but it's just because that was the assignment Mr. Resnik was given. 

Travels with My Cats is an absolutely straightforward fantasy story.

Barnaby In Exile Is a charactor study that could only exist in an SF world.

All of these stories belong on EP.  Unfortunately for the complainers this isn't a Hard SF podcast.  It's like complaining about a Ford dealership having a Mustang GT because it isn't a pick-up.



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Reply #51 on: June 24, 2007, 10:18:34 PM
As long as we're all still arguing about what science fiction is and isn't,
is it ok if I upload the editorial I have running in the current issue of
Jim Baen's Universe, which was inspired by all the discussion right
here on Escape Pod?

Absolutely!  You can post any of your own material you want. 

If I like it, can I have your permission to quote portions of it for a future Escape Pod intro and commentary?

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Reply #52 on: June 24, 2007, 10:52:28 PM
Steve -- Sure.

OK, here it is:

Editorial #3 (June, 2007 issue)

               Straitjackets

           by Mike Resnick


   I’ve received some interesting comments over on Escape Pod, an audio site where they read one of my stories every now and then. To date they have read two Hugo winners and a Hugo nominee – and each time someone, or a few someones, write in to say that the stories are all well-written and moving and all that crap, but they clearly aren’t real true-blue science fiction.
   Which gave me my topic for this issue’s editorial, because people have been trying to put science fiction in a straitjacket for close to a century now, and it just doesn’t work.
   The first guy to define it was Hugo Gernsback, the man who created the first all-science-fiction magazine (Amazing Stories, back in April, 1926). He’s the guy our most prestigious award is named after, even though he had some difficulty speaking English, clearly couldn’t edit it, and usually refused to pay for it except on threat of lawsuit.
   Hugo declared that “scientifiction” (his first term for it) existed solely to interest young boys in science. (Young girls, presumably, were too busy playing with their dolls.) The science had to be reasonably accurate, and central to the story.
   Now, at about the same time Hugo was creating science fiction, H. P. Lovecraft was perfecting a fantasy fiction that rarely involved science (although he did sell a few pieces to Astounding in the 1930s), and clearly wasn’t meant for the impressionable young boys Hugo saw as his audience.
   Okay, move the clock (the calendar?) ahead 80 years. Lovecraft is just about a household name. Eleven of his books are still in print. You’d need extra fingers and toes to count the movies adapted from or suggested by his work. Science fiction is happy to claim him as one of us, at least a close cousin if not a wandering son.
   And Papa Gernsback of the rigid definition? Not a single word he wrote in his entire life – and that includes novels, editorials, non-fiction, the whole shebang – is still in print.
   The first major critic to come along was Damon Knight. Damon knew that science fiction was the pure quill. It annoyed him when science fiction writers didn’t know the craft of writing, and it annoyed him even more when they got their science wrong.
   But what really drove him right up a tree was when they didn’t even try to make the science accurate. When, for example, they put the key in the ignition and the spaceship started up just like a car. When, for example, they put an oxygen atmosphere on Mars.
   When, for example, they were Ray Bradbury.
   Damon acknowledged that what Bradbury did was Art; he knew his craft too much to argue with that. But Art or not, it sure didn’t fit his notion of science fiction, and his criticisms and essays left no doubt that Ray Bradbury was a gifted imposter who should either mend his ways or stop posing as a science fiction writer.
   The result? Almost every word Ray Bradbury has written for the past 60 years is still in print, and the Pulitzer committee just honored him for a lifetime devoted to science fiction. Of all the dozens of pure science fiction books Damon Knight wrote or edited, only two are in print today.
   The next major critic was James Blish, not quite the writer Knight was and a hell of a lot nastier, but he knew his stuff, and that meant he knew science fiction was Important (note capital I), that no practitioner dared take it lightly, that it was just this side of sinful to be flip and flippant, and that the greatest offender was Robert Sheckley. How dare he make fun of the honored tropes and traditions of science fiction?
   Okay, move the clock ahead a quick 60 years and (you saw this coming, right?) there are 11 Sheckley books in print. Of all the books, fiction and non-fiction, that James Blish wrote, only two remain available. Even his Star Trek books have gone the way of the dodo.
   But more to the point, no one argues any longer that humor cannot be valid science fiction (and indeed, such humorous stories as Eric Frank Russell’s “Allamagoosa” and Connie Willis’s “Even the Queen” have won the Hugo). No one says that the science is more important than the emotional impact of a story, by Bradbury, by Zelazny, by anyone. And no one denies horror and supernatural fiction (perhaps excepting vampire novels that are thinly-disguised category romances and outsell science fiction ten-to-one) a place in our family tree.
   Now you would think that after the originator of our field and our first two major critics all fell on their faces trying to keep science fiction within their rigid definitions, future generations of self-appointed Keepers of the Flame (or the Definition) would have slunk off into the shadows. But they didn’t.
   At the midpoint of the 20th Century, everyone knew that sex had no place in science fiction. Our field was like a George Bernard Shaw play, which is to say that an alien, reading (or watching) it could learn everything there was to know about human beings except that we come equipped with genitals and an urge to use them. Then along came Philip Jose Farmer with “The Lovers” and its sequels, and when God didn’t strike him dead, all the writers who had been avoiding Topic Number One for years, even such traditionalists as Heinlein and Asimov, began making up for lost time…and by 1960 it was never again suggested that sex had no place in science fiction.
   J. G. Ballard got a lot of grief, because clearly you couldn’t fool with the actual form of the science fiction novel. But after he did it, so did dozens of others, experimenting every which way as the New Wave was born, fought for its right to exist, and was finally incorporated into the body of the literature.
   So okay, they lost a lot of battles, but there was one thing the traditionalists knew would never change, and that was that science fiction took place in outer space. Then Robert Silverberg began exploring “inner space” with books like Dying Inside, Barry Malzberg explored it with Herovit’s World, the Defenders of the Faith howled like stuck pigs, and a few years later everyone agreed that Outer or Inner Space were equally valid venues as long as the story worked.
   Alternate history was okay for historians like McKinley Kantor and politicians like Winston Churchill, and the very occasional science fiction short story, but everyone knew it wasn’t really science fiction -- until Harry Turtledove began proving it was on a regular basis, and suddenly dozens of writers followed suit. Now there’s no more controversy. Of course alternate history is science fiction.
   And what’s driving the purists crazy these days? Just look around you.
   Connie Willis can win a Hugo with a story about a girl of the future who wants to have a menstrual period when women no longer have them.
   David Gerrold can win a Hugo with a story about an adopted child who claims to be a Martian, and the story never tells you if he is or not.
   I can win Hugos with stories about books remembered from childhood, about Africans who wish to go back to the Good Old Days, about an alien tour guide in a thinly-disguised Egypt.
   The narrow-minded purists to the contrary, there is nothing the field of science fiction can’t accommodate, no subject – even the crucifixion, as Mike Moorcock’s Nebula winner, “Behold the Man”, proves – that can’t be science-fictionalized with taste, skill and quality.
   I expect movie fans, making lists of their favorite science fiction films, to omit Dr. Strangelove and Charly, because they’ve been conditioned by Roddenbury and Lucas to look for the Roddenbury/Lucas tropes of movie    science fiction – spaceships, zap guns, robots, light sabres, and so on.
   But written science fiction has never allowed itself to be limited by any straitjacket. Which is probably what I love most about it.
   About the only valid definition that I’m willing to accept is this: all of modern, mainstream, and realistic fiction is simply a branch, a category, or a subset of science fiction.

              -end-



slic

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Reply #53 on: June 25, 2007, 01:19:32 PM
Russell, a quick rebuttal for clarification. We've never said the above stories should not be run on Escape Pod.  If you go over the threads you'll see that it mostly started with Mr. Resnick classifying stories like "Travels with My Cats" as science fiction, which you yourself consider fantasy.
My comment "However, this is a science fiction podcast..." was written too quickly and you're correct EscapePod is SF/F, in fact, it's whatever Mr. Eley wants it to be.  My attempted brevity caused me to make a mistake.  I meant more along the lines of "a science fiction story should contain some amount of science"

Mr. Resnick,
Thanks for posting your editorial.  It showed that we agree on at least one thing - vampire stories are not science fiction - though it seems to break your rule that anything can be science fiction, ah well, maybe it's the exception that proves the rule.

As something of a reply, I can understand why a manufacturer of stories would want as many markets available as possible.  However, as a consumer, I prefer some way of distinguishing between genres. 

When looking for tomatoes, I would rather walk into the grocery store, go to the produce section and leave with my tamaters, rather than walk up and down the ailes searching for them. As you pointed out in other posts, publishers like the categorization too, in the same way a grocer does.  Customers - the people who pay good money for your particular arrangement of words - will often leave the grocery store buying nothing, rather than buy a cucumber instead of the tomato they wanted.

That's all I'm doing here, letting Steve Eley know that I prefer tomatos to cucumbers and mayonaisse.  As a seller of mayonaisse, I understand that you would like it on every shelf and have everyone try some - but I've tried it and I prefer ketchup, unless it's a tuna sandwich, but now the analogy is really falling apart, so I'll stop now ;)



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Reply #54 on: June 25, 2007, 04:07:38 PM
Why am I wading into this fracas that I really don't have strong stock in?  I'm not sure other than the grocery analogy got me thinking.

When I go the the grocery store looking for tomatoes (and I'm glad you choose tomatoes), I see a whole array of options:  there's Roma tomatoes, Cherry tomatoes, Beefsteak tomatoes, Plum tomatoes, On-the-vine, Organic, etc.  Specialty stores will have even more varieties (Tiny Tim, Red Robin, Patio Hybrid, etc.)

So if you are a tomato connoisseur, you will try different types and come up with what you like best.  Tying this back to sf, after a few samples, you would probably prefer a Bova tomato or a Clarke tomato rather than a Resnick tomato.  The Resnick tomato just doesn't quite fit your taste for what you look for in a tomato.  However, it is still a tomato.

Myself, I prefer to mix it up and eat a bunch of different varieties.

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SFEley

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Reply #55 on: June 25, 2007, 04:16:27 PM
Okay.  Folks.

This is how it is.

1.) Escape Pod has historically accepted science fiction, fantasy, and a little bit of horror.  Anyone can observe this by looking at our back catalog.  We have never made a practice of labeling specific stories by genre, and I do not intend to start.

2.) We have a separate horror podcast now, and we're putting together a separate fantasy podcast.  As this happens, you will hear less and less fiction on Escape Pod that isn't science fiction by my own opinion.  

3.) I make no promises that you will never hear any more.  The Hugo nominees might stay in one podcast, and we might still put Squonk stories on the EP feed for fun, and I don't want any grief about what genre Union Dues is, and if the perfect story comes along and I say it's an EP story, it's an EP story.  Period.

4.) You all are still welcome to opine and argue about genre in the story threads all you want.  It's on-topic, and we welcome all feedback and respectful debate.  But it isn't likely to have much direct impact on Escape Pod's story selections.  If you don't like a given story or don't feel it should have been podcast, please feel free to say so, but being an editor means I trust myself first.  And genre isn't something I primarily base my decisions on.

5.) The debate in this thread has been dropping steadily towards disrespectful for a while now.  On both sides.  It's always surprising to me that the genre argument is strongest when it's a Mike Resnick story -- perhaps it's because Mike is one of our only authors willing to get into an argument with listeners.  Looking back in the thread, I do think he fired the first shot by bringing up MadSimonJ's name when MadSimonJ hadn't said anything.  I possibly should have started moderating then.  I did not, and now things are too thick.

6.) Am I showing unfair favor to Mike Resnick and cutting him more slack on his posts than I would other people?  ...Maybe.  I hadn't been analyzing my choices very deeply on this.  The fact is that Escape Pod owes a lot to Mr. Resnick, and I'm not even talking about his stories.  He's sent some of our strongest authors to us.  Nancy Kress.  Robert J. Sawyer.  Kevin J. Anderson.  Harry Turtledove.  Robert Silverberg.  And several others, all of whom contacted me because Mike Resnick told them they should.  And yes, I know that in an ideal world that shouldn't have any impact on how the forums are conducted, but the fact is that this is a people-based business and, as a person, I like Mike Resnick and I'm grateful to him.  I wouldn't let anyone stand on a true personal attack, but short of that I may be inclined to let him display more argument and orneriness than is usually seen here.  (Though I am fair and aware enough not to come down on anyone else for being ornery back at hiim.)

7.) That said...  Well, this is getting old.  It's not off-topic and it's not vicious, but from where I'm standing it's just not fun any more.  The essay stands because I specifically told Mike he could post it (and anyone else could do the same), but let's keep this in perspective.  The argument in this story thread was never really about this story.  Mike made some fascinating points in his essay, but for the most part the reaction to "Frankie the Spook" has not been based on the genre lines in contention here.  This is coming out of a lot of past history and responses to a lot of past Mike Resnick stories.  Do people really have a lot left now that they need to say?

8.) Okay, there is one thing left that I want to say, because otherwise it's going to be on some minds well into the future.  Everything above, about liking Mike and owing him?  True.  But I have never, ever, bought a story from Mike for those personal reasons.  He's sent me a lot of work, and I've turned down at least as much as I've bought.  Some of the stories were brilliant.  I just didn't think they worked for Escape Pod, so I didn't buy them.  We bought "Down Memory Lane" because I was committed to making offers on all the Hugo nominees last year (though I liked it too), and every story of his since has been one that I decided should be on Escape Pod based on my vision of the podcast.  That's true for everyone.  I've never bought a story on author name alone.


And there's my take on this.  I'm not going to ask people to shut up, and I'm not going to start moderating unless things get worse.  But this isn't really fun now, and that's especially unfortunate because the story itself was intended to be nothing but fun.  So let's all enjoy the good things, and remember why we're here.  And get back to the stories if we can.




ESCAPE POD - The Science Fiction Podcast Magazine


slic

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Reply #56 on: June 25, 2007, 05:02:03 PM
I'm grateful to Mr. Resnick for supporting Escape Pod, and, for the record, I never felt you showed him any preference.

The arguement shows up in these particular stories mainly because of Mr. Resnick's strong opinions.  Nothing wrong with that from my point of view.  If Nancy Kress or even kmmrlatham posts an interesting pov that I don't agree with, I'll definitely post my arguement ;)

As for this thread, I've sent my response directly to kmmrlatham, so unless someone else pipes up, I'm done - this tomato is out of juice (sorry, couldn't help myself).



mike-resnick

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Reply #57 on: June 26, 2007, 09:02:42 PM
>>Thanks for posting your editorial.  It showed that we agree on at least one thing - vampire stories are not science fiction - though it seems to break your rule that anything can be science fiction, ah well, maybe it's the exception that proves the rule.<<

Uh...that wasn't quite what I said. I was referring specifically to thinly-disguised
category romances that feature vampires. I don't think anyone would deny
that Richard Matheson's I AM LEGEND, which features tons of vampires, is
a legitimate science fiction novel.

-- Mike Resnick



Russell Nash

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Reply #58 on: June 27, 2007, 11:58:53 AM
>>Thanks for posting your editorial.  It showed that we agree on at least one thing - vampire stories are not science fiction - though it seems to break your rule that anything can be science fiction, ah well, maybe it's the exception that proves the rule.<<

Uh...that wasn't quite what I said. I was referring specifically to thinly-disguised
category romances that feature vampires. I don't think anyone would deny
that Richard Matheson's I AM LEGEND, which features tons of vampires, is
a legitimate science fiction novel.

-- Mike Resnick


I guess I'm in need of genre clarification.  Why would a supernatural story be an SF story?  Where's the science?



SFEley

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Reply #59 on: June 27, 2007, 12:15:50 PM
I guess I'm in need of genre clarification.  Why would a supernatural story be an SF story?  Where's the science?

You might have heard of the movie adaptation.  The Omega Man.

Anyway - the semantic differences here really have been run down plenty of times.  There's more than one definition of SF, and one definition includes speculative literature in general.  Let's not nitpick on each example.  Particularly ones other tha EP stories.  >9->
« Last Edit: July 05, 2007, 04:44:55 AM by SFEley »

ESCAPE POD - The Science Fiction Podcast Magazine


mike-resnick

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Reply #60 on: June 27, 2007, 08:20:06 PM
>>I guess I'm in need of genre clarification.  Why would a supernatural story be an SF story?  Where's the science?<<

I assume you haven't read I AM LEGEND (which, I should add, is a near-classic
that is constantly being reprinted). In it, vampirism is a virus; there's nothing supernatural about it.

-- Mike Resnick
 



BlairHippo

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Reply #61 on: July 05, 2007, 05:52:29 AM
I enjoyed it as a fun, lightweight trifle.  It's a touch repetitive, but I think it does what it sets out to do.

I actually find the debate as to whether this is "real" science-fiction somewhat ironic, as I felt the story would have worked better as fantasy -- if the explanation for Frankie had been supernatural rather than scientific.  I'm a professional computer nerd by day, and the problem with good software is that it spreads like crazy, even if it's freakin' huge.  (See Linux.)  The real consequence of the situation in this story is that every writer wannabe in the world is going to wind up with their very own Famous Talented Writer sim.

But put that on the same level as a doctor whining about the medical liberties taken by House.  :)  The "limpware" (add mine to the chorus of voices praising this wonderful neologism) was a means to an end, and I was able to suspend my disbelief well enough.



glucoseboy

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Reply #62 on: November 13, 2007, 11:51:48 PM
An enjoyable and entertaining piece.  Nothing earth-shattering or something that makes one think, (just laugh out loud)



DarkKnightJRK

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Reply #63 on: November 28, 2007, 03:46:22 AM
I enjoyed it--not that deep or extremely SCI-fi, but still a fun and funny piece. :)



Unblinking

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Reply #64 on: September 27, 2010, 05:01:04 PM
I thought this one was a lot of fun, good for a lot of laughs.  Now if only I could figure out how to accurately program a historical figure's personality into my computer!  Heck, if you can do that without any actual input, maybe you could even channel people from the future, or hypothetical people!