Author Topic: EP110: Frankie the Spook  (Read 34261 times)

Russell Nash

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Reply #50 on: June 24, 2007, 06:58:00 PM
OK, I have to admit that I don't get the mayo reference.  Maybe I'm just slow.  Is it a reference to this as a fluff piece?
The comment comes from the Dutch putting mayonnaise on french fries (see Pulp Fiction for corroboration) and hamburgers ,etc. 

I believe it's a reference to having stuff added to the story that isn't what we wanted or asked for, or perhaps, expected.  Going back to my old Dept store analogy - I don't expect to find Barbie clothes in with the kids clothes.  And to exaggerate the example if I ask for a burger and fires, I don't expect a drumstick with it.

Mr. Resnick's forte is the emotions of the story, as he put it "I have very little use for science in my stories, and even less interest in it.".  However, this is a science fiction podcast so it should be the norm that science is in the story.


Exactly what Slic just said...  It's becoming increasingly common on this little island (Britain) for foodstuffs to have ever increasing amounts of Mayonnaise slopped on them, its part of London's status as the financial/cultural capital of Europe. 

Basically tho, this is in reference to a long running argument between Slic, Resnick, MadSimonJ, myself and a few others that has been running on the threads of Antarean Dynasties, Travels With My Cats and Barnaby In Exile.  If you want the background I suggest you wander over there.


There's something that hit me about this whole conversation.  This is a science fiction  and fantasy podcaast.  Change the silmacrum in the box to an image in a mirror someone summoned and no one would be complaining that this isn't a modern fantasy piece.  The idea of SF/F is that you get worlds or happenings that can't exist without special help.  In this story the help is a computer, but it's just because that was the assignment Mr. Resnik was given. 

Travels with My Cats is an absolutely straightforward fantasy story.

Barnaby In Exile Is a charactor study that could only exist in an SF world.

All of these stories belong on EP.  Unfortunately for the complainers this isn't a Hard SF podcast.  It's like complaining about a Ford dealership having a Mustang GT because it isn't a pick-up.



SFEley

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Reply #51 on: June 24, 2007, 10:18:34 PM
As long as we're all still arguing about what science fiction is and isn't,
is it ok if I upload the editorial I have running in the current issue of
Jim Baen's Universe, which was inspired by all the discussion right
here on Escape Pod?

Absolutely!  You can post any of your own material you want. 

If I like it, can I have your permission to quote portions of it for a future Escape Pod intro and commentary?

ESCAPE POD - The Science Fiction Podcast Magazine


mike-resnick

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Reply #52 on: June 24, 2007, 10:52:28 PM
Steve -- Sure.

OK, here it is:

Editorial #3 (June, 2007 issue)

               Straitjackets

           by Mike Resnick


   I’ve received some interesting comments over on Escape Pod, an audio site where they read one of my stories every now and then. To date they have read two Hugo winners and a Hugo nominee – and each time someone, or a few someones, write in to say that the stories are all well-written and moving and all that crap, but they clearly aren’t real true-blue science fiction.
   Which gave me my topic for this issue’s editorial, because people have been trying to put science fiction in a straitjacket for close to a century now, and it just doesn’t work.
   The first guy to define it was Hugo Gernsback, the man who created the first all-science-fiction magazine (Amazing Stories, back in April, 1926). He’s the guy our most prestigious award is named after, even though he had some difficulty speaking English, clearly couldn’t edit it, and usually refused to pay for it except on threat of lawsuit.
   Hugo declared that “scientifiction” (his first term for it) existed solely to interest young boys in science. (Young girls, presumably, were too busy playing with their dolls.) The science had to be reasonably accurate, and central to the story.
   Now, at about the same time Hugo was creating science fiction, H. P. Lovecraft was perfecting a fantasy fiction that rarely involved science (although he did sell a few pieces to Astounding in the 1930s), and clearly wasn’t meant for the impressionable young boys Hugo saw as his audience.
   Okay, move the clock (the calendar?) ahead 80 years. Lovecraft is just about a household name. Eleven of his books are still in print. You’d need extra fingers and toes to count the movies adapted from or suggested by his work. Science fiction is happy to claim him as one of us, at least a close cousin if not a wandering son.
   And Papa Gernsback of the rigid definition? Not a single word he wrote in his entire life – and that includes novels, editorials, non-fiction, the whole shebang – is still in print.
   The first major critic to come along was Damon Knight. Damon knew that science fiction was the pure quill. It annoyed him when science fiction writers didn’t know the craft of writing, and it annoyed him even more when they got their science wrong.
   But what really drove him right up a tree was when they didn’t even try to make the science accurate. When, for example, they put the key in the ignition and the spaceship started up just like a car. When, for example, they put an oxygen atmosphere on Mars.
   When, for example, they were Ray Bradbury.
   Damon acknowledged that what Bradbury did was Art; he knew his craft too much to argue with that. But Art or not, it sure didn’t fit his notion of science fiction, and his criticisms and essays left no doubt that Ray Bradbury was a gifted imposter who should either mend his ways or stop posing as a science fiction writer.
   The result? Almost every word Ray Bradbury has written for the past 60 years is still in print, and the Pulitzer committee just honored him for a lifetime devoted to science fiction. Of all the dozens of pure science fiction books Damon Knight wrote or edited, only two are in print today.
   The next major critic was James Blish, not quite the writer Knight was and a hell of a lot nastier, but he knew his stuff, and that meant he knew science fiction was Important (note capital I), that no practitioner dared take it lightly, that it was just this side of sinful to be flip and flippant, and that the greatest offender was Robert Sheckley. How dare he make fun of the honored tropes and traditions of science fiction?
   Okay, move the clock ahead a quick 60 years and (you saw this coming, right?) there are 11 Sheckley books in print. Of all the books, fiction and non-fiction, that James Blish wrote, only two remain available. Even his Star Trek books have gone the way of the dodo.
   But more to the point, no one argues any longer that humor cannot be valid science fiction (and indeed, such humorous stories as Eric Frank Russell’s “Allamagoosa” and Connie Willis’s “Even the Queen” have won the Hugo). No one says that the science is more important than the emotional impact of a story, by Bradbury, by Zelazny, by anyone. And no one denies horror and supernatural fiction (perhaps excepting vampire novels that are thinly-disguised category romances and outsell science fiction ten-to-one) a place in our family tree.
   Now you would think that after the originator of our field and our first two major critics all fell on their faces trying to keep science fiction within their rigid definitions, future generations of self-appointed Keepers of the Flame (or the Definition) would have slunk off into the shadows. But they didn’t.
   At the midpoint of the 20th Century, everyone knew that sex had no place in science fiction. Our field was like a George Bernard Shaw play, which is to say that an alien, reading (or watching) it could learn everything there was to know about human beings except that we come equipped with genitals and an urge to use them. Then along came Philip Jose Farmer with “The Lovers” and its sequels, and when God didn’t strike him dead, all the writers who had been avoiding Topic Number One for years, even such traditionalists as Heinlein and Asimov, began making up for lost time…and by 1960 it was never again suggested that sex had no place in science fiction.
   J. G. Ballard got a lot of grief, because clearly you couldn’t fool with the actual form of the science fiction novel. But after he did it, so did dozens of others, experimenting every which way as the New Wave was born, fought for its right to exist, and was finally incorporated into the body of the literature.
   So okay, they lost a lot of battles, but there was one thing the traditionalists knew would never change, and that was that science fiction took place in outer space. Then Robert Silverberg began exploring “inner space” with books like Dying Inside, Barry Malzberg explored it with Herovit’s World, the Defenders of the Faith howled like stuck pigs, and a few years later everyone agreed that Outer or Inner Space were equally valid venues as long as the story worked.
   Alternate history was okay for historians like McKinley Kantor and politicians like Winston Churchill, and the very occasional science fiction short story, but everyone knew it wasn’t really science fiction -- until Harry Turtledove began proving it was on a regular basis, and suddenly dozens of writers followed suit. Now there’s no more controversy. Of course alternate history is science fiction.
   And what’s driving the purists crazy these days? Just look around you.
   Connie Willis can win a Hugo with a story about a girl of the future who wants to have a menstrual period when women no longer have them.
   David Gerrold can win a Hugo with a story about an adopted child who claims to be a Martian, and the story never tells you if he is or not.
   I can win Hugos with stories about books remembered from childhood, about Africans who wish to go back to the Good Old Days, about an alien tour guide in a thinly-disguised Egypt.
   The narrow-minded purists to the contrary, there is nothing the field of science fiction can’t accommodate, no subject – even the crucifixion, as Mike Moorcock’s Nebula winner, “Behold the Man”, proves – that can’t be science-fictionalized with taste, skill and quality.
   I expect movie fans, making lists of their favorite science fiction films, to omit Dr. Strangelove and Charly, because they’ve been conditioned by Roddenbury and Lucas to look for the Roddenbury/Lucas tropes of movie    science fiction – spaceships, zap guns, robots, light sabres, and so on.
   But written science fiction has never allowed itself to be limited by any straitjacket. Which is probably what I love most about it.
   About the only valid definition that I’m willing to accept is this: all of modern, mainstream, and realistic fiction is simply a branch, a category, or a subset of science fiction.

              -end-



slic

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Reply #53 on: June 25, 2007, 01:19:32 PM
Russell, a quick rebuttal for clarification. We've never said the above stories should not be run on Escape Pod.  If you go over the threads you'll see that it mostly started with Mr. Resnick classifying stories like "Travels with My Cats" as science fiction, which you yourself consider fantasy.
My comment "However, this is a science fiction podcast..." was written too quickly and you're correct EscapePod is SF/F, in fact, it's whatever Mr. Eley wants it to be.  My attempted brevity caused me to make a mistake.  I meant more along the lines of "a science fiction story should contain some amount of science"

Mr. Resnick,
Thanks for posting your editorial.  It showed that we agree on at least one thing - vampire stories are not science fiction - though it seems to break your rule that anything can be science fiction, ah well, maybe it's the exception that proves the rule.

As something of a reply, I can understand why a manufacturer of stories would want as many markets available as possible.  However, as a consumer, I prefer some way of distinguishing between genres. 

When looking for tomatoes, I would rather walk into the grocery store, go to the produce section and leave with my tamaters, rather than walk up and down the ailes searching for them. As you pointed out in other posts, publishers like the categorization too, in the same way a grocer does.  Customers - the people who pay good money for your particular arrangement of words - will often leave the grocery store buying nothing, rather than buy a cucumber instead of the tomato they wanted.

That's all I'm doing here, letting Steve Eley know that I prefer tomatos to cucumbers and mayonaisse.  As a seller of mayonaisse, I understand that you would like it on every shelf and have everyone try some - but I've tried it and I prefer ketchup, unless it's a tuna sandwich, but now the analogy is really falling apart, so I'll stop now ;)



Swamp

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Reply #54 on: June 25, 2007, 04:07:38 PM
Why am I wading into this fracas that I really don't have strong stock in?  I'm not sure other than the grocery analogy got me thinking.

When I go the the grocery store looking for tomatoes (and I'm glad you choose tomatoes), I see a whole array of options:  there's Roma tomatoes, Cherry tomatoes, Beefsteak tomatoes, Plum tomatoes, On-the-vine, Organic, etc.  Specialty stores will have even more varieties (Tiny Tim, Red Robin, Patio Hybrid, etc.)

So if you are a tomato connoisseur, you will try different types and come up with what you like best.  Tying this back to sf, after a few samples, you would probably prefer a Bova tomato or a Clarke tomato rather than a Resnick tomato.  The Resnick tomato just doesn't quite fit your taste for what you look for in a tomato.  However, it is still a tomato.

Myself, I prefer to mix it up and eat a bunch of different varieties.

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SFEley

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Reply #55 on: June 25, 2007, 04:16:27 PM
Okay.  Folks.

This is how it is.

1.) Escape Pod has historically accepted science fiction, fantasy, and a little bit of horror.  Anyone can observe this by looking at our back catalog.  We have never made a practice of labeling specific stories by genre, and I do not intend to start.

2.) We have a separate horror podcast now, and we're putting together a separate fantasy podcast.  As this happens, you will hear less and less fiction on Escape Pod that isn't science fiction by my own opinion.  

3.) I make no promises that you will never hear any more.  The Hugo nominees might stay in one podcast, and we might still put Squonk stories on the EP feed for fun, and I don't want any grief about what genre Union Dues is, and if the perfect story comes along and I say it's an EP story, it's an EP story.  Period.

4.) You all are still welcome to opine and argue about genre in the story threads all you want.  It's on-topic, and we welcome all feedback and respectful debate.  But it isn't likely to have much direct impact on Escape Pod's story selections.  If you don't like a given story or don't feel it should have been podcast, please feel free to say so, but being an editor means I trust myself first.  And genre isn't something I primarily base my decisions on.

5.) The debate in this thread has been dropping steadily towards disrespectful for a while now.  On both sides.  It's always surprising to me that the genre argument is strongest when it's a Mike Resnick story -- perhaps it's because Mike is one of our only authors willing to get into an argument with listeners.  Looking back in the thread, I do think he fired the first shot by bringing up MadSimonJ's name when MadSimonJ hadn't said anything.  I possibly should have started moderating then.  I did not, and now things are too thick.

6.) Am I showing unfair favor to Mike Resnick and cutting him more slack on his posts than I would other people?  ...Maybe.  I hadn't been analyzing my choices very deeply on this.  The fact is that Escape Pod owes a lot to Mr. Resnick, and I'm not even talking about his stories.  He's sent some of our strongest authors to us.  Nancy Kress.  Robert J. Sawyer.  Kevin J. Anderson.  Harry Turtledove.  Robert Silverberg.  And several others, all of whom contacted me because Mike Resnick told them they should.  And yes, I know that in an ideal world that shouldn't have any impact on how the forums are conducted, but the fact is that this is a people-based business and, as a person, I like Mike Resnick and I'm grateful to him.  I wouldn't let anyone stand on a true personal attack, but short of that I may be inclined to let him display more argument and orneriness than is usually seen here.  (Though I am fair and aware enough not to come down on anyone else for being ornery back at hiim.)

7.) That said...  Well, this is getting old.  It's not off-topic and it's not vicious, but from where I'm standing it's just not fun any more.  The essay stands because I specifically told Mike he could post it (and anyone else could do the same), but let's keep this in perspective.  The argument in this story thread was never really about this story.  Mike made some fascinating points in his essay, but for the most part the reaction to "Frankie the Spook" has not been based on the genre lines in contention here.  This is coming out of a lot of past history and responses to a lot of past Mike Resnick stories.  Do people really have a lot left now that they need to say?

8.) Okay, there is one thing left that I want to say, because otherwise it's going to be on some minds well into the future.  Everything above, about liking Mike and owing him?  True.  But I have never, ever, bought a story from Mike for those personal reasons.  He's sent me a lot of work, and I've turned down at least as much as I've bought.  Some of the stories were brilliant.  I just didn't think they worked for Escape Pod, so I didn't buy them.  We bought "Down Memory Lane" because I was committed to making offers on all the Hugo nominees last year (though I liked it too), and every story of his since has been one that I decided should be on Escape Pod based on my vision of the podcast.  That's true for everyone.  I've never bought a story on author name alone.


And there's my take on this.  I'm not going to ask people to shut up, and I'm not going to start moderating unless things get worse.  But this isn't really fun now, and that's especially unfortunate because the story itself was intended to be nothing but fun.  So let's all enjoy the good things, and remember why we're here.  And get back to the stories if we can.




ESCAPE POD - The Science Fiction Podcast Magazine


slic

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Reply #56 on: June 25, 2007, 05:02:03 PM
I'm grateful to Mr. Resnick for supporting Escape Pod, and, for the record, I never felt you showed him any preference.

The arguement shows up in these particular stories mainly because of Mr. Resnick's strong opinions.  Nothing wrong with that from my point of view.  If Nancy Kress or even kmmrlatham posts an interesting pov that I don't agree with, I'll definitely post my arguement ;)

As for this thread, I've sent my response directly to kmmrlatham, so unless someone else pipes up, I'm done - this tomato is out of juice (sorry, couldn't help myself).



mike-resnick

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Reply #57 on: June 26, 2007, 09:02:42 PM
>>Thanks for posting your editorial.  It showed that we agree on at least one thing - vampire stories are not science fiction - though it seems to break your rule that anything can be science fiction, ah well, maybe it's the exception that proves the rule.<<

Uh...that wasn't quite what I said. I was referring specifically to thinly-disguised
category romances that feature vampires. I don't think anyone would deny
that Richard Matheson's I AM LEGEND, which features tons of vampires, is
a legitimate science fiction novel.

-- Mike Resnick



Russell Nash

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Reply #58 on: June 27, 2007, 11:58:53 AM
>>Thanks for posting your editorial.  It showed that we agree on at least one thing - vampire stories are not science fiction - though it seems to break your rule that anything can be science fiction, ah well, maybe it's the exception that proves the rule.<<

Uh...that wasn't quite what I said. I was referring specifically to thinly-disguised
category romances that feature vampires. I don't think anyone would deny
that Richard Matheson's I AM LEGEND, which features tons of vampires, is
a legitimate science fiction novel.

-- Mike Resnick


I guess I'm in need of genre clarification.  Why would a supernatural story be an SF story?  Where's the science?



SFEley

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Reply #59 on: June 27, 2007, 12:15:50 PM
I guess I'm in need of genre clarification.  Why would a supernatural story be an SF story?  Where's the science?

You might have heard of the movie adaptation.  The Omega Man.

Anyway - the semantic differences here really have been run down plenty of times.  There's more than one definition of SF, and one definition includes speculative literature in general.  Let's not nitpick on each example.  Particularly ones other tha EP stories.  >9->
« Last Edit: July 05, 2007, 04:44:55 AM by SFEley »

ESCAPE POD - The Science Fiction Podcast Magazine


mike-resnick

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Reply #60 on: June 27, 2007, 08:20:06 PM
>>I guess I'm in need of genre clarification.  Why would a supernatural story be an SF story?  Where's the science?<<

I assume you haven't read I AM LEGEND (which, I should add, is a near-classic
that is constantly being reprinted). In it, vampirism is a virus; there's nothing supernatural about it.

-- Mike Resnick
 



BlairHippo

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Reply #61 on: July 05, 2007, 05:52:29 AM
I enjoyed it as a fun, lightweight trifle.  It's a touch repetitive, but I think it does what it sets out to do.

I actually find the debate as to whether this is "real" science-fiction somewhat ironic, as I felt the story would have worked better as fantasy -- if the explanation for Frankie had been supernatural rather than scientific.  I'm a professional computer nerd by day, and the problem with good software is that it spreads like crazy, even if it's freakin' huge.  (See Linux.)  The real consequence of the situation in this story is that every writer wannabe in the world is going to wind up with their very own Famous Talented Writer sim.

But put that on the same level as a doctor whining about the medical liberties taken by House.  :)  The "limpware" (add mine to the chorus of voices praising this wonderful neologism) was a means to an end, and I was able to suspend my disbelief well enough.



glucoseboy

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Reply #62 on: November 13, 2007, 11:51:48 PM
An enjoyable and entertaining piece.  Nothing earth-shattering or something that makes one think, (just laugh out loud)



DarkKnightJRK

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Reply #63 on: November 28, 2007, 03:46:22 AM
I enjoyed it--not that deep or extremely SCI-fi, but still a fun and funny piece. :)



Unblinking

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Reply #64 on: September 27, 2010, 05:01:04 PM
I thought this one was a lot of fun, good for a lot of laughs.  Now if only I could figure out how to accurately program a historical figure's personality into my computer!  Heck, if you can do that without any actual input, maybe you could even channel people from the future, or hypothetical people!