EP113: Ishmael in Love

[Russell Nash]

EP113: Ishmael in Love

By Robert Silverberg.
Read by Stephen Eley
First appeared in Fantasy & Science Fiction, July 1970.

I am a lonely mammalian organism who has committed acts of heroism on behalf of your species and wishes only the reward of a more intimate relationship [”love”] with Miss Lisabeth Calkins. I beseech compassionate members of H. sapiens to speak favorably of me to her. I am loyal, trustworthy, reliable, devoted, and extremely intelligent. I would endeavor to give her stimulating companionship and emotional fulfillment [”happiness”] in all respects within my power.

Permit me to explain the pertinent circumstances.

Rated R. Contains explicit anatomical description and non-human sexual activity..

Referenced Sites:
Steve’s LiveJournal (cleaning updates)


Listen to this week’s Escape Pod!

[Mr. Tweedy]

Usually when I post a comment, I try to give something like a coherent analysis, but this story inspires only random outbursts:

This story get biology all wrong.  Star Trek has proved numerous times that humans can procreate with any other species.  If a human and a Vulcan can do it, then surely a human and a dolphin should have no trouble producing viable offspring.  They'd probably be cute.

Ishmael knocks up that chick dolphin just to make Lisabeth jealous?  What a dirty bastard!

I love the image of busy-body humans explaining to the dolphin that he is a fool to be content.  He's being oppressed!  He should be angry!  Strike!  Revolt!  Reminds me of real politics, except that the dolphin didn't fall for it, whereas a human probably would.

It was funny when Ishmael felt hurt that Lisabeth covers up her "ugly parts" for the male humans, but shows them to him.  That was actually one of the funnier bits I've heard on EP.

Why do I always hear that I shouldn't "waste" water?  We can pull water out of thin air, for goodness sake!  We have so much pure, clean water that everybody can have as much as they want for less than the cost of dirt.  So I'm keeping my water-hogging toilet and high-flow shower-head, thank you very much.

Would this story fall under the "so bad it's good" category?

[guypatsy]

Rarely has the maxim that there are no new ideas been so thoroughly and painfully proven to me. I am currently in the process of editing a story narrated by an intelligent, stiltedly formal chimp who learned to speak via literature and is torn by unrequited love. He labors for humanity, fails in his attempts to be more human, and is eventually betrayed by the human he most admires. Damn.

[slic]

They say bad things come in threes, and I'll be proving that old adage.

Ignoring when the story came out and the name of the author, which I think is fair given the context of this being entertainment, this was a fair story covering ground many others have tread.  This is not limited to science fiction either, the case of an outsider (space alien, monster or fairy creature) wishing for the painfully near but unattainable is a common theme.

Well crafted, but it felt like old fiction (which makes sense, I know).  I found the beginning very stilted.  While I sympathized with Ishmael's desires, who hasn't wanted the head cheerleader to find them important/heroic/sexy, I felt the story went wrong when Lizabeth did go in the water with him.  I don't think it's prudishness, it just that he's, well, to be painfully frank, a dolphin.  A dolphin who said he loved her and essentially wanted to wrap his arms around her. It's just so odd, and she's old enough that it should give her pause (If 13-15 is still the age of puberty then she'd be 26-30).  Then the story took the preditably human path of Ishmael trying to make he jealous, and then, essentially, pleading with her friends that she take him back.  I would have liked to have seen a more dolphin-like approach whatever that may have been.

I planned to be more harsh while the story was concluding, but Mr. Eley's end comment reminded me that the story is a good way to show others that we aren't alone in how much rejection hurts.  In that way, the story succeeds very well.

Now realizing the fact that the story was published in 1970, the critism mellows considerably.  In that respect, it reminds me of the LOTR books, which I find horrendously boring, plodding and repetitive.  But, in that case, it was the first of its kind and spawned such amazing works that, as a historical piece of fiction, it is fasinating. 

Keeping in mind that the story was published 37 years ago, most of the stories I've read of a similar vein would very likely find this one as an ancestor if they could trace their literary geneology. 

So while it makes an interesting study, it's not a great tale.  Too dusty, and, at this point, unoriginal.

[Leon Kensington]

In some parts funny, in some parts, sad, in most parts I sympathized.  A great story, I hope we hear more from Mr. Silverberg.

[eytanz]

This story had a really hard time maintaining my interest. It wasn't bad, so much that I felt it's been done before, and better. Basically this is a mash-up of two literary cliches -"socially awkward guy falls in love with popular girl who doesn't reciprocate" + "the noble savage" narrator.

Other than some minor physical details, this story could have been written a few decades earlier with, say, some sort of Polynesian islander as the narrator and very little would have needed to be changed. Probably by the 70s that was already starting to be a bit problematic, but that's all the dolphin is made out to be - a foreigner from a primitive culture. I realize that this was written in a time when people thought that dolphins were really just like us only a bit wetter, but we don't live in such a time anymore.

I can't evaluate the story properly in the context of its writing, but it doesn't feel like a story that aged well. I agree with slic - it just feels dusty and unoriginal.

[lowky]

Seeing above it was published in 1970 originally, I guess it can be forgiven knowledge wise, but I believe besides humans and some other primates, I believe Dolphins are one of the only mammals to engage in sex for pleasure, and not just procreation.  That was the only part of the story that really "broke" it for me.  knowing Dolphins have sex for pleasure, made me loose my suspension of disbelief.  While It's been done before, I still found it enjoyable overall.

[Ananzi]

I remember reading and enjoying this story decades ago...funny,all I can think is that I'd love to have heard a woman read this story...but I like the job Steve did.

[Dex]

As I begin to write this I know I must be wrong in my opinion.  Why?  Because a writer wrote it and thought enough of it to submit it to a magazine.  A magazine chose to publish it an Steve Eley chose to include it on Escapepod.  Also some of the posters liked it. So I know what I am about to say is all wrong.  Also, please excuse my writting style it is the function of 25 years of corporate memo writting.

Is is Science Fiction - no - none of what might be considered science is germane to the story or only marginally.
Is it Fantasy - yes if you are a dolphin.
Are any of the plot lines really that important to the conclusion? No - Dolphin maintenance  crew - could have been Seaworld dolphin show.  Humans that wanted to distroy the desalination plant - attempt at drama? not needed.

So a half hour of my life to get to the saving grace of this story - unrequited love?

I'll show that I am crazy here and say this is lazy writting or trying to fit a story into a genre.  Imagine what James A. Mitchener could have done with the concepts of this story - an island; a local inhabitant; a beautiful blond.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_A._Michener

It is as if instead of Michener writting Mexico (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_%28novel%29)  he decides to tell the story about a bull that falls in love with one of the matadors.

This is the type of story that pushes me to stop listening to Escapepod.
Why am I saying this?  Because I don't want to listen to similar stories in the future.  I would rather that Escapepod was issued stories on a monthly basis if it would improve the quality of the stories.

I know I can not be the child that tells the Emperor that he is naked so I know I must be wrong about this story.

[Mr. Tweedy]

I agree with Dex: He is wrong.

I didn't like this story either either, but I think the criticism are pretty extreme, and if one bad episode is enough to make a person stop listening to a free show, then that person is being too picky for their own good.  (If I'd stopped listening after "Lust for Learning," I wouldn't have heard "Squonk the Apprentice.")

For myself, I thought the water plant with the dolphin maintenance crew was the coolest part of the story.  The unrequited love was so ridiculous that it was comical (which may have been the intention), but the water plant was cool.  It's one of those examples of strong "sci" in the "fi" that was being discussed in the "Giving Plague" thread.  The plant uses a novel but totally realistic means of purifying water, and hearing the story was an object lesson in physics.  I like that.

[ClintMemo]

Overall, I liked this story and the style it was written in, which is not surprising since I am a fan of "old" SF.  The only two criticisms I have are that it seemed to end before I expected it to.  I was expecting Ishmael's behavior to escalate into something more violent or suicidal. 
I also kept waiting for him to say "Fa loooooves Be." 

[Biscuit]

Ahhh, anthropomorphization!

"Creature X" claims knowledge and superiority to "Species Y", but for drama/laughs "doesn't understand why they do Z".

To me, it serves to make Creature X look less credible, and humans superior "because WE understand, you silly Alien!"

I didn't like this story very much because at the beginning, our alien creature states he will not lower himself to human standards, but by then end, he does. That's simply applying human emotions to a creature we do not understand, or are too lazy to get inside the mind of.

I agree with Tweedy, I liked the "science".

My "But" to the whole argument is, as stated before, this is Silverberg of almost 40 years ago. Writers - even the great ones - will learn lessons from writing of the past.

[jahnke]

Ishmael seemed a bit like a pervert to me. After all isn't that what we would call a guy who loved his dog? Or his horse or his goat? That boy ain't right.

[Russell Nash]

Is is Science Fiction - no - none of what might be considered science is germane to the story or only marginally.
Is it Fantasy - yes if you are a dolphin.

And if the Millenium Falcon was a stage coach and Alderan was the Alamo and the Empire was the Mexicans, then Han Solo would have been Davie Crockett.  So Star Wars isn't SF, it's just another version of the Alamo.  And Lucas being such a Hollywood jerk changed the ending to the Texans winning, just so there would be a happy ending.

Unrequited love goes back to the stories of the Greek gods and before.  It's been done in every single genre in almost every language (it probably wasn't done as SF in Sioux).  To say that this isn't SF, because it's unrequited love.  Is to say that Sense and Sensibility wasn't an Empire Era custom drama, but a greek drama.

This story get biology all wrong.  Star Trek has proved numerous times that humans can procreate with any other species.  If a human and a Vulcan can do it, then surely a human and a dolphin should have no trouble producing viable offspring.  They'd probably be cute.

Viable offspring wasn't the problem.  The problem was that he's to muscular and big, and she's small and fragile.

Why do I always hear that I shouldn't "waste" water?  We can pull water out of thin air, for goodness sake!  We have so much pure, clean water that everybody can have as much as they want for less than the cost of dirt.  So I'm keeping my water-hogging toilet and high-flow shower-head, thank you very much.

This was solid science.  Put a cold glass of ice tea outside on a humid day and you'll see the condensation.  The idea of pulling cold water up to be used as a refidgerant is being used to cool skyscrapers in Toronto.  The reason it's not being used is the cost.  In the story they have a secondary use for the water that generates enough money to cover the cost.

The military uses dolphins to do lots of different activities where their speed and ability to dive is of use.  The only real problem I had with the cleaning of the intake was that I think the intake could have been designed with a mechanical cleaner that would work better.  Also dolphins are notorious for getting bored with repetetive tasks.

I won't comment on the speaking dolphin or on the love story.  That part didn't intrigue me as much as the water plant.

[eytanz]

Why do I always hear that I shouldn't "waste" water?  We can pull water out of thin air, for goodness sake!  We have so much pure, clean water that everybody can have as much as they want for less than the cost of dirt.  So I'm keeping my water-hogging toilet and high-flow shower-head, thank you very much.

This was solid science.  Put a cold glass of ice tea outside on a humid day and you'll see the condensation.  The idea of pulling cold water up to be used as a refidgerant is being used to cool skyscrapers in Toronto.  The reason it's not being used is the cost.  In the story they have a secondary use for the water that generates enough money to cover the cost.

The problem with using condensation as a water source for an industrial country (as opposed as something like a refrigeration system which requires considerably less water), is not simply cost. Partially, it's the fact that it's only a viable solution if the humidity is consistently high. That means basically only the tropics, and only near the sea. And here, the fact that this is 70s technology becomes apparent, because nowdays, if you have a source of salt water, desalination is far more cost-effective than condensation of natural airborne humidity.

[capteucalyptus]

Star Wars isn't sci-fi, it's clearly fantasy.   

While the whole thing didn't creep me out completely (thanks to the author making clear that the dolphin knew that wouldn't work) it did make me uncomfortable.  I don't think that's a bad thing.  It intensified the feeling that there was no way this could work out.  If you weren't bothered that would be bothersome.  If the Ishmael and Lisabeth had gotten together that would have blown it completely.  As it is I did find it weird that she took her clothes off and got in the water. 

This was by no means the greatest EP story I've heard, but it was by no means the worst either.  The ending was a little corny (SWD seeking open minded SWHSF) but overall it was a half hour that I enjoyed.

[Russell Nash]

Why do I always hear that I shouldn't "waste" water?  We can pull water out of thin air, for goodness sake!  We have so much pure, clean water that everybody can have as much as they want for less than the cost of dirt.  So I'm keeping my water-hogging toilet and high-flow shower-head, thank you very much.

This was solid science.  Put a cold glass of ice tea outside on a humid day and you'll see the condensation.  The idea of pulling cold water up to be used as a refidgerant is being used to cool skyscrapers in Toronto.  The reason it's not being used is the cost.  In the story they have a secondary use for the water that generates enough money to cover the cost.

The problem with using condensation as a water source for an industrial country (as opposed as something like a refrigeration system which requires considerably less water), is not simply cost. Partially, it's the fact that it's only a viable solution if the humidity is consistently high. That means basically only the tropics, and only near the sea. And here, the fact that this is 70s technology becomes apparent, because nowdays, if you have a source of salt water, desalination is far more cost-effective than condensation of natural airborne humidity.

But in an area where you have all of the natural conditions to make such a system viable they don't use such a system, because desalinization is a more affordable and dependable solution.  If they could make this system work for less (by offsetting the cost like in the story), they would use it.  They are using this system in Toronto to cool buildings, because they can do it on a scale that makes it greener and cheaper than standard refridgeration (air conditioning).

[darusha]

It makes me strangely happy that more comments about this story are dissecting the details of the water plant than discussing the hot-chick-banging-a-dolphin angle.

[Dex]

Is is Science Fiction - no - none of what might be considered science is germane to the story or only marginally.
Is it Fantasy - yes if you are a dolphin.

And if the Millenium Falcon was a stage coach and Alderan was the Alamo and the Empire was the Mexicans, then Han Solo would have been Davie Crockett.  So Star Wars isn't SF, it's just another version of the Alamo.  And Lucas being such a Hollywood jerk changed the ending to the Texans winning, just so there would be a happy ending.

Unrequited love goes back to the stories of the Greek gods and before.  It's been done in every single genre in almost every language (it probably wasn't done as SF in Sioux).  To say that this isn't SF, because it's unrequited love.  Is to say that Sense and Sensibility wasn't an Empire Era custom drama, but a greek drama.

I would be happy to discuss this topic with you - a couple of point though.
1. I didn't assert in my comments that the story wasn't SF because it is another version of something else.
2. I didn't assert in my comment that the story wasn't SF because its theme is unrequited love.

[Mr. Tweedy]

Is there a category for stuff that's just goofy?  I think this story goes in that category.

Farce (Oxford English Dictionary): A comic dramatic work using buffoonery and horseplay and typically including crude characterization and ludicrously improbable situations.

I'd call this a farce (that happens to take place in a water purification plant).

[eytanz]

But in an area where you have all of the natural conditions to make such a system viable they don't use such a system, because desalinization is a more affordable and dependable solution.  If they could make this system work for less (by offsetting the cost like in the story), they would use it.  They are using this system in Toronto to cool buildings, because they can do it on a scale that makes it greener and cheaper than standard refridgeration (air conditioning).

Well, yeah, that was what I was saying (except the Toronto part, which makes sense).

Is there a category for stuff that's just goofy?  I think this story goes in that category.

Farce (Oxford English Dictionary): A comic dramatic work using buffoonery and horseplay and typically including crude characterization and ludicrously improbable situations.

I'd call this a farce (that happens to take place in a water purification plant).

I wouldn't call it a farce. I'll grant the "crude characterization", and the situation are somewhat improbable if not implausibly so, but there's little buffoonery or horseplay. The comedic value of this story (such as it is) comes from irony, not from overt clowning. To the degree that this story is goofy, I have a feeling that it is against the intentions of the author, not by his intentions, compared, with say, "Amanda and the Alien" - a Silverberg story which is deliberately silly.

[Russell Nash]

Is is Science Fiction - no - none of what might be considered science is germane to the story or only marginally.
Is it Fantasy - yes if you are a dolphin.

And if the Millenium Falcon was a stage coach and Alderan was the Alamo and the Empire was the Mexicans, then Han Solo would have been Davie Crockett.  So Star Wars isn't SF, it's just another version of the Alamo.  And Lucas being such a Hollywood jerk changed the ending to the Texans winning, just so there would be a happy ending.

Unrequited love goes back to the stories of the Greek gods and before.  It's been done in every single genre in almost every language (it probably wasn't done as SF in Sioux).  To say that this isn't SF, because it's unrequited love.  Is to say that Sense and Sensibility wasn't an Empire Era custom drama, but a greek drama.

I would be happy to discuss this topic with you - a couple of point though.
1. I didn't assert in my comments that the story wasn't SF because it is another version of something else.
2. I didn't assert in my comment that the story wasn't SF because its theme is unrequited love.

My heavy-handed point was that if we change the setting in a story we can make it anything.  Since it is about unrequited love, we can put it anywhere just by changing setting and make it any type of interaction by changing charactor types.  8000 years B.C. one straight cavewoman, one lesbian. 

This story was SF because through technology we have a dolphin interacting with a human.  How else can a dolphin speak to a woman?

Half of the story lines from the different Star Treks were not dependant on the science, but they were in the future and on a spaceship.

[Dex]

This story was SF because through technology we have a dolphin interacting with a human.  How else can a dolphin speak to a woman?
[/quote]

I never thought of "Flipper" or "Dr. Dolittle" as SF but maybe it is.

Let's just agree to disagree on this one.

Thanks

[eytanz]

I never thought of "Flipper" or "Dr. Dolittle" as SF but maybe it is.

Neither of those involve technology - Dr. Dolittle has superpowers, and flipper can understand people but not speak.

This story specifically mentions that the dolphin has some sort of universal translator.

[mrund]

I agree with Ishmael, that human female cannot have been very attractive from a physical point of view. At six feet and 51 kgs, she was clearly malnourished and not a desirable mate.

As for the story, the bit that threw me was the woman's inability to empathise with the lovestruck dolphin. She knew he was smart and that those romantic words must have meant a lot to him. Are we supposed to believe that she wasn't very bright?

[Russell Nash]

I agree with Ishmael, that human female cannot have been very attractive from a physical point of view. At six feet and 51 kgs, she was clearly malnourished and not a desirable mate.

As for the story, the bit that threw me was the woman's inability to empathise with the lovestruck dolphin. She knew he was smart and that those romantic words must have meant a lot to him. Are we supposed to believe that she wasn't very bright?

She seemed to treat it the way a twnety-something sometimes does when a 13 year old says he loves her.  "oh, isn't that cute."  She didn't seem to think he was capable of really being in love.

[Dex]

I never thought of "Flipper" or "Dr. Dolittle" as SF but maybe it is.

Neither of those involve technology - Dr. Dolittle has superpowers, and flipper can understand people but not speak.

This story specifically mentions that the dolphin has some sort of universal translator.

Flipper does fall into SF for several reasons.  In the story lines Flipper did use technology in various forms to help people in ways only Flipper could do.  Also, he (or was it a she) demonstrated similar feelings, coherent though processes and technical potential as Ishmael.  It was key to the story line that Flipper communicate with the human characters and it did often.  The humans also made their thoughts known to Flipper also.  Are you saying it was not SF just because he didn't use a universal translator to communicate with the humans?  If that is the case all any author needs to do is add some sort of technology (futuristic possibly) to a story and it becomes SF.


Simarly Dr. Doolittle is SF if you focus on it from the animals point of view.  Simarly to Ishmael, the animals were cabable of coherent and logical thought processes and were able to communicate them to the humans.  Again, if you are saying that just because the animals didn't use a universal translator to communicate with the humans it isn't SF?

[eytanz]

I'm not really interested in debating whether or not things are SF - I'm perfectly fine to disagree with you on that. But I'm really confused by your rethoric; in your previous post, you were arguing *against* Russel Nash's assertion that this story is SF by claiming that if it is, Doolitle and Flipper are SF, and it seemed to me that the argument was "they are obviously not SF, so therefore this story is not SF either". My post was intended to point out that there are enough differences between the three dolphin stories that it's reasonable to consider this one SF and not the other two. Now you're arguing that they other two stories *are* SF?

I'm not very familiar with Flipper, so I can't comment on that beyond what I already did. But as for Dr. Doolittle, I'd say the genre, for me, is very clearly Fantasy.

Simarly Dr. Doolittle is SF if you focus on it from the animals point of view.  Simarly to Ishmael, the animals were cabable of coherent and logical thought processes and were able to communicate them to the humans.  Again, if you are saying that just because the animals didn't use a universal translator to communicate with the humans it isn't SF?

No, I say the fact that they very clearly use some form of supernatural ability makes it not SF.

[Russell Nash]

I never thought of "Flipper" or "Dr. Dolittle" as SF but maybe it is.

Neither of those involve technology - Dr. Dolittle has superpowers, and flipper can understand people but not speak.

This story specifically mentions that the dolphin has some sort of universal translator.

Flipper does fall into SF for several reasons.  In the story lines Flipper did use technology in various forms to help people in ways only Flipper could do.  Also, he (or was it a she) demonstrated similar feelings, coherent though processes and technical potential as Ishmael.  It was key to the story line that Flipper communicate with the human characters and it did often.  The humans also made their thoughts known to Flipper also.  Are you saying it was not SF just because he didn't use a universal translator to communicate with the humans?  If that is the case all any author needs to do is add some sort of technology (futuristic possibly) to a story and it becomes SF.


Simarly Dr. Doolittle is SF if you focus on it from the animals point of view.  Simarly to Ishmael, the animals were cabable of coherent and logical thought processes and were able to communicate them to the humans.  Again, if you are saying that just because the animals didn't use a universal translator to communicate with the humans it isn't SF?

Shows we should therefore add to the SF genre:

Lassie
Gentle Ben
Flicka
Black Stalion
The Lone Ranger (Because of Silver)
Rin Tin Tin

[Dex]

eytanz,
I apologise for being "flip" with my post. I was arguing my original point in a backhanded way that:
1. "Is is Science Fiction - no - none of what might be considered science is germane to the story or only marginally."

2. "I'll show that I am crazy here and say this is lazy writting or trying to fit a story into a genre"

My point of my "Flip" post was:
If it is a universal translator that makes this SF then let's think about that for a second.  The idea of the universal translator is to facilitate communication between an animal and human.  Well, if in other stories animals have been able to make their thoughts know to humans without a universal translator why isn't that SF?   The thoughts of the animal have been made know to the human and the humans to the animal.  Same result but lacking the eloquence of using a universal translator*.  I agree that Flipper and Dr. Dolittle are not SF.

So the question then becomes: what is it about the interaction between technology and humans (and in this case a dolphin) that makes it SF (or at least good SF).  My answer is it is how the scientific knowledge or technology affects the human condition.

Which brings me to my second point above.  The technology mentioned in the story are not germane to the plot line and does not affect the human condition and might have been inserted to fit the story into a SF genre.

Why do I mention these things? In the hope that we will get better stories.

But I think the lesson I learned is not to make make these points.  So I'll let it rest.

____________________________________
* Does inserting a universal translator into the following, make them SF?
Lassie
Gentle Ben
Flicka
Black Stalion
The Lone Ranger (Because of Silver)
Rin Tin Tin

[schark]

Just to throw my 2 cents in (shouldn't that be a lot more by now?), I tune in to this show not to parse details (I didn't even really listen to the water purification stuff) or determine the genre, I just want an enjoyable story.  I thought this one was cute.  Some of it was a little ham-handed and obvious, but all-in-all, especially given Steve Eley's wrap-up, it worked for me.  It was diverting.  It held together.  And it was just kind of fun.  Makes me happy.

Incidentally, I found Dex's profound dislike of this story interesting because we were on opposing sides of the aisle concerning "The Giving Plague" (he liked it, me not so much), and someone mentioned wanting to ditch the show after "Lust For Learning", which I really enjoyed.  I think it's a testament to Mr. Eley's story-picking skills that he keeps us all tuning in despite our clearly disparate interests in story content.

[eytanz]

But I think the lesson I learned is not to make make these points.  So I'll let it rest.

I think you're learning the wrong lesson here. The points you are trying to make are good points and interesting. It's just that they're a lot easier to understand when you explicitly lay them out (as in your last post) instead of making your points obliquely as in your previous posts.

[Russell Nash]

1. "Is is Science Fiction - no - none of what might be considered science is germane to the story or only marginally."

The science was used to set up the whole story.  You can not name a single SF story where I can't take the science out of it and still have the same basic story.  (This is repeating my initial comments to your first message)  It's fine if you don't like the story, but trying to say it isn't SF just doesn't pan out.  

I think on every story since March someone has tried to say it wasn't SF because of one reason or another.  The comment is getting old.  Star Wars is King Arthur.  A.I. is Pinochio.  BSG is the Trail of Tears.  

Wikipedia says:
Science fiction often involves one or more of the following elements:
—A setting in the future or in an alternative time line.
—A setting in outer space or involving aliens or unknown civilizations.
—The discovery or application of new scientific principles, such as time travel or psionics, or new technology, such as nanotechnology, faster-than-light travel or robots.
—Political or social systems different from those of the known present or past.

Exploring the consequences of such differences is the traditional purpose of science fiction, making it a "literature of ideas".

This story hits on 2 out of 4 points.

Is it Hard SF?  No, but Steve never said EP was only for H ard SF.  What he did say was that no one was submitting good Hard SF.  If you have a favorite Hard SF writer, send him an email and tell him EP needs his work.

[ClintMemo]

on the Flipper vs Ishmael debate:

I don't remember Flipper, but I assume it is similar to Lassie and every other show I have seen where the animal makes frantic noise and the human plays "20 questions" until they guess the right translation whereas the animal acknowledges their correct guess by making the appropriate response.

I play this same game with my two dogs 4 or 5 times a day.  I admit, they have never tried to tell me that my nine-year-old has fallen into the pool and is drowning. Usually, what they are trying to tell me is that they want attention, food, water or want to go outside. 
No universal translator required.

My point is that there is a HUGE difference between what my dogs can tell me, which is similar to Lassie, and Ishmael's ability to eloquently express his love for a person of another species.   That, to me, makes this science fiction.

[Dex]

You can not name a single SF story where I can't take the science out of it and still have the same basic story.

Soylent Green
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green

Soylent Green
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green

[Mr. Tweedy]

You can not name a single SF story where I can't take the science out of it and still have the same basic story.

Um, that's not true.  There are lots of stories that are just Shakespeare in space, but there are a lot where the fantastic element is absolutely crucial.  Just as one of many, many possible examples: Ender's Game.  You can't replace the telepathic, consciousness-dispersed aliens with human characters, and you can't have the types of military engagements described without the ansible, and you can't have Valentine and Peter pose as Locke and Demosthenes without the internet (which was ficticious at the time Ender's Game was written).

This story was not one of those: You could do "Ishmael" with a Tarzan and Jane scenario, as eytanz suggested.  But there certainly are many stories from the which the sci-fi/fantasy elements could absolutely not be expunged.

[slic]

You can not name a single SF story where I can't take the science out of it and still have the same basic story.

Um, that's not true.

I think you meant to include Fantasy because I see the reference but not explictly stated.  Fantasy can replace any sci-fi story easily enough.  However, because of the more familiar elements, I find that Fantasy does a better job telling the story about the characters.  How all these big events affect their lives.

I find the Sci-Fi I enjoy the best is when the characters are secondary to the Idea (though they should still be compelling).  Taking Ender's Game as the example - it's about Ender, how the situation affects him, his family and so on.  I love the book and really felt for Ender, but the story was fantasy with sci-fi dressing.  Firefly/Serenity with all it's spaceships and terraformed planets is fantasy.  Star Trek (TOS and TNG) flipped between fantasy and sci-fi often.

A good example of what I mean is the Beserker series by Fred Saberhagen.  Here is the idea of roaming killer robots and how they affect society; "Bad Life" vs "Good Life"

Sci-Fi to me is taking what we know now and changing it, making it bigger, faster, better/worse and seeing how it affects the world.

The problem with this kind of story is Ishmael was so easily replaced by a geeky kid and you get the same result.

[Dex]

Just to be clear all my comments refer to Science Fiction - Not Fantasy.  I believe that to be true for the discussion Russel Nash and I are having also.

[DKT]

The science was used to set up the whole story.  You can not name a single SF story where I can't take the science out of it and still have the same basic story.  (This is repeating my initial comments to your first message)  It's fine if you don't like the story, but trying to say it isn't SF just doesn't pan out.  

I think on every story since March someone has tried to say it wasn't SF because of one reason or another.  The comment is getting old.  Star Wars is King Arthur.  A.I. is Pinochio.  BSG is the Trail of Tears.  

You read my thoughts on "another debate about whether an EP story was SF?"

Generally, I enjoyed this story.  I don't mind some of the problems other people have mentioned, mostly because I can chalk it up to being published in the 70s.  That said, the one thing I had a hard time with was why Lisabeth decided to get naked before jumping into the tank.  I mean, I can understand her getting in the tank, but I agree with whoever said that it just didn't seem smart.  I don't know if I'll ever read/listen to it again, but I'm glad I listened to it it once.   

[Russell Nash]

Generally, I enjoyed this story.  I don't mind some of the problems other people have mentioned, mostly because I can chalk it up to being published in the 70s.  That said, the one thing I had a hard time with was why Lisabeth decided to get naked before jumping into the tank.  I mean, I can understand her getting in the tank, but I agree with whoever said that it just didn't seem smart.  I don't know if I'll ever read/listen to it again, but I'm glad I listened to it it once.   

I think the getting naked thing was just because the clothes she was wearing were inapprobriate for swimming.  I think it was a long summer dress or something like that.  Maybe since it was really hot, or just because it was written in the 70s, she wasn't wearing underwear.

[Russell Nash]

You can not name a single SF story where I can't take the science out of it and still have the same basic story.

Soylent Green
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green

Soylent Green
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green

OK.  A movie I want to see starts soon, so I'm just cranking this out, but here goes.  I didn't read the full description and I never saw the film, but I think I have the basics.

We have a large wagon train on the Oregon Trail.  They winter over in a place in the Rockies.  Part way through the winter the guy in charge of the supplies does the math and realizes they don't have enough to make it.  He calls together the leaders and they decide they can butcher a couple of the horses or oxen. 

A little later one of the men falls from a tree and breaks his neck.  The supply guy goes back to the leaders and says that they still don't have enough food, but what if they fill the casket with dirt and butcher and smoke this guy along with the ox.  Throughout the winter there are a couple more accidents, a guy they kill after he goes nuts with cabin fever, and a guy they catch trying to rape someone's 13 year old daughter.  Towards the end Charlton Heston discovers what they were doing and screams, "the ox meat is people!"

Copyright 2007 Russell Nash Publishing

[Dex]

You can not name a single SF story where I can't take the science out of it and still have the same basic story.

Soylent Green
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green

Soylent Green
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green

OK.  A movie I want to see starts soon, so I'm just cranking this out, but here goes.  I didn't read the full description and I never saw the film, but I think I have the basics.

We have a large wagon train on the Oregon Trail.  They winter over in a place in the Rockies.  Part way through the winter the guy in charge of the supplies does the math and realizes they don't have enough to make it.  He calls together the leaders and they decide they can butcher a couple of the horses or oxen. 

A little later one of the men falls from a tree and breaks his neck.  The supply guy goes back to the leaders and says that they still don't have enough food, but what if they fill the casket with dirt and butcher and smoke this guy along with the ox.  Throughout the winter there are a couple more accidents, a guy they kill after he goes nuts with cabin fever, and a guy they catch trying to rape someone's 13 year old daughter.  Towards the end Charlton Heston discovers what they were doing and screams, "the ox meat is people!"

Copyright 2007 Russell Nash Publishing

I guessing you're giving me back my "Flipper/Flip" comments.

Take some time - read the wikipedia info; identify the science in the story and then take it out of the story.  I'm assuming you want to have a serious discussion about it; if you don't just say something innocuous in your next post and let's move on.

Thanks

[SFEley]

That said, the one thing I had a hard time with was why Lisabeth decided to get naked before jumping into the tank.  I mean, I can understand her getting in the tank, but I agree with whoever said that it just didn't seem smart.

Maybe it's the crowd I run with, but skinny dipping with a dolphin just for amusement didn't seem like implausible behavior to me.  Heck, I've gone skinny dipping with far more dubious mammals.  >8->

[Mr. Tweedy]

It's just one more way she wasn't taking him seriously.  To her, he was just a critter, so being naked in front of him meant nothing.  Do I care if my rabbit sees me naked?  The fly  on the ceiling?  No.  People only care if other people see them naked, and she did not regard Ishmael as a person.  He was actually correct in being hurt when she covered herself up in from of the human male: The man seeing her naked meant something, but Ishmael seeing her meant nothing.

Poor Ishmael.   :'(

[DKT]

Right, I get that and to a large degree it makes sense.  Who cares if my cats see me naked?  I don't think they're in love with me, although they do like to jump me when I'm laying down or rub up against my leg.    OMG!  I always thought they just wanted food!

Seriously, though, I guess I had a hard time with it because they were communicating and Ishmael had already started to profess her feelings to her.  So for her to take her clothes off indicated something more intimate (which in the end, I know was what Silverburg intended us to feel with Ishmael).  I might be off on the timeline of that bit, though. 

Maybe it's the crowd I run with, but skinny dipping with a dolphin just for amusement didn't seem like implausible behavior to me.  Heck, I've gone skinny dipping with far more dubious mammals.  >8->

Tease!

[Russell Nash]

You can not name a single SF story where I can't take the science out of it and still have the same basic story.

Soylent Green
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green

Soylent Green
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green

OK.  A movie I want to see starts soon, so I'm just cranking this out, but here goes.  I didn't read the full description and I never saw the film, but I think I have the basics.

We have a large wagon train on the Oregon Trail.  They winter over in a place in the Rockies.  Part way through the winter the guy in charge of the supplies does the math and realizes they don't have enough to make it.  He calls together the leaders and they decide they can butcher a couple of the horses or oxen. 

A little later one of the men falls from a tree and breaks his neck.  The supply guy goes back to the leaders and says that they still don't have enough food, but what if they fill the casket with dirt and butcher and smoke this guy along with the ox.  Throughout the winter there are a couple more accidents, a guy they kill after he goes nuts with cabin fever, and a guy they catch trying to rape someone's 13 year old daughter.  Towards the end Charlton Heston discovers what they were doing and screams, "the ox meat is people!"

Copyright 2007 Russell Nash Publishing

I guessing you're giving me back my "Flipper/Flip" comments.

Take some time - read the wikipedia info; identify the science in the story and then take it out of the story.  I'm assuming you want to have a serious discussion about it; if you don't just say something innocuous in your next post and let's move on.

Thanks

I read the full plot description at wikipedia. It breaks down to a group of people can not feed itself and the leaders sneak human remains into the food supply.  Everything else is window dressing.  There's the whole euthanasia angle but that's not specifically SF either.

If there is a serious plot point I'm not covering, let me know.  

[Dex]

You can not name a single SF story where I can't take the science out of it and still have the same basic story.

Soylent Green
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green

Soylent Green
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green

OK.  A movie I want to see starts soon, so I'm just cranking this out, but here goes.  I didn't read the full description and I never saw the film, but I think I have the basics.

We have a large wagon train on the Oregon Trail.  They winter over in a place in the Rockies.  Part way through the winter the guy in charge of the supplies does the math and realizes they don't have enough to make it.  He calls together the leaders and they decide they can butcher a couple of the horses or oxen. 

A little later one of the men falls from a tree and breaks his neck.  The supply guy goes back to the leaders and says that they still don't have enough food, but what if they fill the casket with dirt and butcher and smoke this guy along with the ox.  Throughout the winter there are a couple more accidents, a guy they kill after he goes nuts with cabin fever, and a guy they catch trying to rape someone's 13 year old daughter.  Towards the end Charlton Heston discovers what they were doing and screams, "the ox meat is people!"

Copyright 2007 Russell Nash Publishing

I guessing you're giving me back my "Flipper/Flip" comments.

Take some time - read the wikipedia info; identify the science in the story and then take it out of the story.  I'm assuming you want to have a serious discussion about it; if you don't just say something innocuous in your next post and let's move on.

Thanks

I read the full plot description at wikipedia. It breaks down to a group of people can not feed itself and the leaders sneak human remains into the food supply.  Everything else is window dressing.  There's the whole euthanasia angle but that's not specifically SF either.

If there is a serious plot point I'm not covering, let me know. 

I'm going to take my own advise here and say something innocuous.  I have to go to sleep early today to get up early for a hike tomorrow.  Let's end it here.
Thanks

[Coyote]

I wanted to like this story, really. I mean, it's about dolphins working in a purification plant. What's not to love?

But I just couldn't enjoy it. It struck me a dull, and I noticed the author relying on technology and such too much in the story. Now, I know this sounds crazy, but IMO a good SF story cannot be about science. All stories, long or short, drama or tragedy, Fantasy or SF, rely on characters. Readers find pleasure in being able to relate somehow to what they are reading, and if the story is more about the world the characters are in, the reader is going to feel isolated.

[Russell Nash]

This may be a first.  We now have complaints about not enough technology and too much technology in the same story.

I'm going to take my own advise here and say something innocuous.  I have to go to sleep early today to get up early for a hike tomorrow.  Let's end it here.
Thanks

Seriously, if I missed an important point, tell me. 

[Jonathan C. Gillespie]

I wouldn't worry about it too much.  You're never going to please everyone.  If we look at the past several tales you guys have published, most have been solid hits, and even the debate about "Sci-Fi or not" is usually prefaced with "But I really enjoyed this".

In my case, I found the tale an interesting portrayal of companionate love as a cetacen might see it.  I thought Ishmael was a robustly developed character, and I shared his frustration over the antagonist's (and yes, that's what she is in this story, when you think about it) inability to respect him or acknowledge him on a deeper level than one might regard a loveable pet.  In her defense, though, I think she misinterpreted his affections to be plutonic.

The most interesting thing to me, though, is how people are pegging it as old-fashioned.  I strongly disagree with this point of view.  The tale was far ahead of its time, and is a testament to Silverberg's risk-taking.  This story's fairly heavy sexual content strays close to sexual encounters across species lines.  The fact that this was picked up in the 70's echoes the sexual liberation of that time, but even so, one wonders what the reaction of the reader base was when it arrived.

There's much to like.  As a literary peon, I hesitate to criticize one of the greats, but I will say that the section with Ishmael roving the ocean, heartbroken, for days fell short of imparting the emotional weight I believe was intended.  Rather, the section feels condensed -- perhaps due to over-zealous word count reduction -- and feels disjointed compared to the rest of the tale.  Furthermore, Ishmael succumbs to virtually no penalties for this neglect of his duties, which wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for the fact that Ishmael -- and the author -- don't make a big deal out of that (at least, that I can remember).  It would have been a perfect spot to have Ishmael complain about how he isn't even regarded on the same level as a human worker, as his getting off easy is indicative of his treatment as an amusing beast.

Overall, the story invokes much thought, involves a juxtaposition of reality as we know it, with dolphins proving more mature in many ways than mighty man, and the future-tech is everywhere.  I call it science fiction, and even if it isn't, I don't care.

[eytanz]

The most interesting thing to me, though, is how people are pegging it as old-fashioned.  I strongly disagree with this point of view.  The tale was far ahead of its time, and is a testament to Silverberg's risk-taking.

The tale may well have been ahead of its time in the 1970s (which I doubt - I feel it would have been ahead of its time in the 1960s, but it's on par with a lot of 1970s literature I've read both stylistically and content-wise), but that doesn't mean it's not old-fashioned now.

[FNH]

Episode comment : Story disappointing,  the guy reading was good  Who was he?.

[Dex]

Episode comment : Story disappointing,  the guy reading was good  Who was he?.

I like your style.

[startrek.steve]

well I for one, (maybe in a minority) really enjoyed the story. theres not a lot of dolphin SciFi around. if anybody else likes Dolphin Scifi round here. try reading King of the Sea by Robery Carlberg.
Steve

[wakela]

I found myself wondering what the story would be like if it was a human who fell in love with a dolphin.  Not sure if this would have been better or worse or just different.

I thought this story was a little dated, too.  If I had read this story 20 years ago I probably would have found it more interesting.  The idea of a dolphin falling in love with a human through translation technology would have been a neat science fictiony idea and a commentary on how technology can facilitate such feelings, and how humans are not unique in feeling them.  But by the year 2007 we've all seen these ideas expressed so many times that it's no longer impressive.  So I think the story was good SF, but has become weak SF.

For the story to satisfy today I would expect the dolphin to act more like a dolphin, and not like an arrogant human.   Maybe instead of boning a dolphin hottie to express his frustration he would beat the crap out of a lower male dolphin to show what a desirable stud he was.   

I am loathe to rekindle the SF / not SF debate, but I have found it useful to consider a story's SFness not as an on/off characteristic, but one of degree.  Some stories are more SF than others.  Also, a story can be a good story, but bad SF, like a person can be basically good while being a bad spouse or a bad worker.

[Dex]

I thought this story was a little dated, too.  If I had read this story 20 years ago I probably would have found it more interesting.  The idea of a dolphin falling in love with a human through translation technology would have been a neat science fictiony idea and a commentary on how technology can facilitate such feelings, and how humans are not unique in feeling them.  But by the year 2007 we've all seen these ideas expressed so many times that it's no longer impressive.  So I think the story was good SF, but has become weak SF.

We humans and our knowlege base was not that much different from today.  This would have been a disapointing story in 1987 also.

[wakela]

Quote from: wakela on Today at 06:20:39 PM
I thought this story was a little dated, too.  If I had read this story 20 years ago I probably would have found it more interesting.  The idea of a dolphin falling in love with a human through translation technology would have been a neat science fictiony idea and a commentary on how technology can facilitate such feelings, and how humans are not unique in feeling them.  But by the year 2007 we've all seen these ideas expressed so many times that it's no longer impressive.  So I think the story was good SF, but has become weak SF.

We humans and our knowlege base was not that much different from today.  This would have been a disapointing story in 1987 also.

Actually, I think you're right.  David Brin's Startide Rising was published in 1984 and had a far more interesting treatment of dolphin psychology and human/dolphin interaction. 

[DanK]

Um.

I happen to be kind of interested in dolphins.  Especially in the ways that they aren't like humans, and aren't at all like the cute, playful, children that humans like to think of them as.  Of course, this story was written in the 70s, so it's certainly not the writer's fault.  But there were still some places where it was difficult for me not to laugh out loud.  Keep in mind I'm no expert, so dolphin lovers should check my facts before being too horrified.

Ishmael was offended by "temporary mating," and felt "protective, chivalrous, sexual emotions."

Among dolphins, sex could be called a form of greeting, like shaking hands.  And rape is somewhat commonplace.

[Russell Nash]

And rape is somewhat commonplace.

From what I've heard it's actually more of the norm.  Gang rapes, one raper and four+ assistants to help corner her, is far more common than consenual mating. 

The story struck me as more of a kid stuck in a dolphins body.  The thinking was far too human.  I think it's an example of the arrogance of man, that as soon as something can show its intelligence to be at our level, it also has to have all of our emotional insecurities.

[VBurn]

Did anybody else think of the King of the Hill episode where Hank wins a chance to swim with a dolphins and ends up getting raped by the dolphin?  I have also heard storys (urban ledgends?) of fisherman wearing rubber waders getting attacked by horny male dolphins in Flordia. 

[Russell Nash]

Did anybody else think of the King of the Hill episode where Hank wins a chance to swim with a dolphins and ends up getting raped by the dolphin?  I have also heard storys (urban ledgends?) of fisherman wearing rubber waders getting attacked by horny male dolphins in Flordia. 

**Swiftly puts on Moderator hat**

This could be funny as hell folks, but let's be tactful.

[ClintMemo]

On a side note...
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=278856

[ajames]

Looks like I'm in the minority here, but I enjoyed this story.  I'm not sure how much more I'll think about it, it didn't change the way I think about myself or the world, it didn't inspire me to write something or express myself in some creative outlet, I don't wish I had written it, and it didn't impress me greatly in any way I can communicate to others, but I'll take simple enjoyment sometimes, too.  There are some days, in fact, when I prefer it.

[Roney]

Looks like I'm in the minority here, but I enjoyed this story.

I'll join that minority.  I thought that (like the following episode 114: Cloud Dragon Skies) the narrator's voice was really strong and that the story worked well in audio, however dated some elements might be.  I particularly liked the honesty of the narrator's tone, with no false modesty and no boastfulness, just a simple recounting of how he sees himself.  The fact that he has a very high opinion of himself means that his impartial pronouncements about his greatness grate horribly, and that lack of self-awareness makes it a very unusual voice.  Ishmael sounds genuinely non-human.

My biggest complaint was that it had an essay structure rather than a story structure.  Ishmael announces what he intends to demonstrate, details his argument, then reiterates his conclusion.  I'm a sucker for this structure when the middle section makes the reader re-evaluate their assumptions (through additional information or an unreliable narrator), so that the conclusion uses similar phrasing to the introduction but the reader understands something different by it.  It's a great way of incorporating a twist so that it's not a cheap punchline.  But when the introduction-argument-conclusion form is played as straight as it was in "Ishmael in Love" it just sucks dramatic tension out of the story.

[Reggie]

I joined this thread late, so I will not get too deep into what was good or bad about the story...truth be told, since I just started listening to this show on Monday, I'm still a little overwhelmed by how amazing it is to have a podcast and community such as this to be part of...so..that being said, I enjoyed the story well enough....I pretty much like listening to all the stories, because I do so at work and they help keep my day from dragging...

Anyway, with all the talk about animal shows and people talking to animals and animal workers and whatnot, it seems to me that everyone is leaving out Darwin from Seaquest...that's what I was thinking of the whole time I was listening to the story....

[Listener]

darusha:

It makes me strangely happy that more comments about this story are dissecting the details of the water plant than discussing the hot-chick-banging-a-dolphin angle.

I LOL'd when you said that.

Did anybody else think of the King of the Hill episode where Hank wins a chance to swim with a dolphins and ends up getting raped by the dolphin? 

Not until you said it, but I do remember it.

Among dolphins, sex could be called a form of greeting, like shaking hands. 

Didn't I read some Heinlein that treated sex similarly?  I've often felt that America places far too much weight on sex.  But that's another story for another thread.

***

I won't say I really liked this story, but I didn't hate it.  I too felt it was somewhat heavy-handed, and the narrator was very hard to like.  I could believe him, rely upon his opinions and his observations, but I thought he was an ass.

As a story written in the late 60s (I'm guessing) and published in 1970, I understand where Silverberg was coming from with all the talk about boobs... sorry, "milk glands"... but reading/hearing it nearly 40 years later (holy crap, it's really been that long, hasn't it) it just feels forced.  Differences in culture due to time, I suppose.

Given that Ishmael really thinks he knows so very much about love, he seems to have neglected cross-species/cross-cultural communication in his studies.  Had he not read any SF?  There's love in a lot of SF -- hell, didn't he watch any Star Trek spools? -- and yet he thinks that boinking the other dolphin in front of Lisabeth is going to work?  Humans on the whole (obviously the EP forum readers are not part of this group) seem to be incapable of thinking that any species other than ourselves is as intelligent as we are, except when we read it in sci-fi.  A truly-intelligent dolphin would've figured this out and known that, no matter how he felt about Lisabeth, she would never see him the way he really wanted to be seen.

Couched in the comments Eley made after the story, I can understand the point of it -- I've been that dolphin, too -- but I still don't think I took away from this story anything that Silverberg really intended.

I know Silverberg can write cultural-sexual sci-fi plenty well -- I rather enjoyed "The World Inside", even if by today's standards it's a tad ham-handed -- but this story just didn't do it for me.

As for the reading, Eley's readings are always capable and thorough, but because we know so much about him due to intros, outros, and forum posts, I feel influenced by what I know about him from his public persona.  I don't read (ie) Jonathan Sullivan's blog, so all I know about him is what I heard in the intro, and that wasn't enough to form an opinion beyond "okay, this dude has a medical background, so he'll probably get all the words right".

I think this is a common problem when people give their writing to their friends.  I write, among other things, erotica.  I have a friend, John, who enjoys erotica.  But he has trouble reading mine -- I value his opinion on my writing, and he has given it on my SF, Fantasy, Tech, and General Fiction -- because he knows me personally.  Another example: my best friend Yoshi says he loves my novel, but I know it's a piece of crap -- it was self-published by PublishAmerica (before I knew what a waste of time they were), it had no good editing, it had plot holes they wouldn't let me fix (that got left in because I didn't have an editor), it rambled, it had cliches up the wazoo... I've grown a lot as a writer since then.  But Yoshi still says he loves the book.  I allow him to do so -- maybe he honestly does -- but if I showed to anyone on these forums, I'm pretty sure the response would be "has potential, but needs a lot of work". 

So, in short, when people tell us stories, we are influenced by our knowledge of the reader.  That's why I prefer when stories are read by people who aren't Steve Eley, even though he's a very good reader, even if I have no idea who the reader is or why s/he has been chosen to read a story.  As long as the reader can perform the story well, it doesn't matter to me if it's a neurologist or a baseball writer, someone who participates in polyamory or someone who participates in fantasy football.  I just can't have gotten to know the writer as well as I've "gotten to know" Eley.  (No offense intended with any of this, of course.)

[SFEley]

So, in short, when people tell us stories, we are influenced by our knowledge of the reader.  That's why I prefer when stories are read by people who aren't Steve Eley, even though he's a very good reader, even if I have no idea who the reader is or why s/he has been chosen to read a story.  As long as the reader can perform the story well, it doesn't matter to me if it's a neurologist or a baseball writer, someone who participates in polyamory or someone who participates in fantasy football.  I just can't have gotten to know the writer as well as I've "gotten to know" Eley.  (No offense intended with any of this, of course.)

This is fascinating.  I'm not offended at all by it; it's a really interesting perspective.  I think it's likely you'll have to keep putting up with stories read by me anyway -- it's one of the things that keeps me enjoying the podcast enough to keep doing it.    But I had no idea that my simply being Steve Eley and revealing things about me would affect the perception of the story for some people.  I hope it's not too much of a distraction too much of the time.
 
Thanks for sharing, Ye With the Minimally Revealing Handle.  >8->

[bolddeceiver]

I listened to this a few weeks ago when I discovered the podcast, and was too underwhelmed to post anything about it then, but I've been making my way through the archives, and just listened to Barnaby in Exile.  The contrast between the two strikes me as a powerful example of the importance of execution.  Both took a pretty well-trod general idea (story narrated by nonhuman sentient terrestrial species), and yet, even if "it's all been done," which seems to have been the major criticism of this story in the forum discussion, that it could be done again in one case so that it could bring me to tears and in another so that I'm left totally flat shows how little the freshness of the idea itself can sometimes mean in comparison to the way the idea is explored.

[Myrealana]

This was definately not one of my favorites so far.

In the beginning, the dolphin narrator was fun, but it went on for too long. I realized from very early that the woman was never going to understand and from that point, it was just a formality to listen to the whole thing.

I can't put my finger on it, but several people here have made points that to some extent or another reflect my viewpoint - the "noble savage" the time spent on sexual themes and other things.

Still, better than a kick in the head!

[Unblinking]

I didn't care for this one.  I'm not opposed to intelligent animal stories, but there are much better examples than this one (like Barnaby in Exile).  The dolphin never seemed like anything but a human to me.  Like DKT, I thought that her swimming naked with the dolphin seemed out of place considering his confession of love to her.  And the use of dolphins to clean the pipes just didn't seem like it would actually be effective.