EP113: Ishmael in Love

[Russell Nash]

I agree with Ishmael, that human female cannot have been very attractive from a physical point of view. At six feet and 51 kgs, she was clearly malnourished and not a desirable mate.

As for the story, the bit that threw me was the woman's inability to empathise with the lovestruck dolphin. She knew he was smart and that those romantic words must have meant a lot to him. Are we supposed to believe that she wasn't very bright?

She seemed to treat it the way a twnety-something sometimes does when a 13 year old says he loves her.  "oh, isn't that cute."  She didn't seem to think he was capable of really being in love.

[Dex]

I never thought of "Flipper" or "Dr. Dolittle" as SF but maybe it is.

Neither of those involve technology - Dr. Dolittle has superpowers, and flipper can understand people but not speak.

This story specifically mentions that the dolphin has some sort of universal translator.

Flipper does fall into SF for several reasons.  In the story lines Flipper did use technology in various forms to help people in ways only Flipper could do.  Also, he (or was it a she) demonstrated similar feelings, coherent though processes and technical potential as Ishmael.  It was key to the story line that Flipper communicate with the human characters and it did often.  The humans also made their thoughts known to Flipper also.  Are you saying it was not SF just because he didn't use a universal translator to communicate with the humans?  If that is the case all any author needs to do is add some sort of technology (futuristic possibly) to a story and it becomes SF.


Simarly Dr. Doolittle is SF if you focus on it from the animals point of view.  Simarly to Ishmael, the animals were cabable of coherent and logical thought processes and were able to communicate them to the humans.  Again, if you are saying that just because the animals didn't use a universal translator to communicate with the humans it isn't SF?

[eytanz]

I'm not really interested in debating whether or not things are SF - I'm perfectly fine to disagree with you on that. But I'm really confused by your rethoric; in your previous post, you were arguing *against* Russel Nash's assertion that this story is SF by claiming that if it is, Doolitle and Flipper are SF, and it seemed to me that the argument was "they are obviously not SF, so therefore this story is not SF either". My post was intended to point out that there are enough differences between the three dolphin stories that it's reasonable to consider this one SF and not the other two. Now you're arguing that they other two stories *are* SF?

I'm not very familiar with Flipper, so I can't comment on that beyond what I already did. But as for Dr. Doolittle, I'd say the genre, for me, is very clearly Fantasy.

Simarly Dr. Doolittle is SF if you focus on it from the animals point of view.  Simarly to Ishmael, the animals were cabable of coherent and logical thought processes and were able to communicate them to the humans.  Again, if you are saying that just because the animals didn't use a universal translator to communicate with the humans it isn't SF?

No, I say the fact that they very clearly use some form of supernatural ability makes it not SF.

[Russell Nash]

I never thought of "Flipper" or "Dr. Dolittle" as SF but maybe it is.

Neither of those involve technology - Dr. Dolittle has superpowers, and flipper can understand people but not speak.

This story specifically mentions that the dolphin has some sort of universal translator.

Flipper does fall into SF for several reasons.  In the story lines Flipper did use technology in various forms to help people in ways only Flipper could do.  Also, he (or was it a she) demonstrated similar feelings, coherent though processes and technical potential as Ishmael.  It was key to the story line that Flipper communicate with the human characters and it did often.  The humans also made their thoughts known to Flipper also.  Are you saying it was not SF just because he didn't use a universal translator to communicate with the humans?  If that is the case all any author needs to do is add some sort of technology (futuristic possibly) to a story and it becomes SF.


Simarly Dr. Doolittle is SF if you focus on it from the animals point of view.  Simarly to Ishmael, the animals were cabable of coherent and logical thought processes and were able to communicate them to the humans.  Again, if you are saying that just because the animals didn't use a universal translator to communicate with the humans it isn't SF?

Shows we should therefore add to the SF genre:

Lassie
Gentle Ben
Flicka
Black Stalion
The Lone Ranger (Because of Silver)
Rin Tin Tin

[Dex]

eytanz,
I apologise for being "flip" with my post. I was arguing my original point in a backhanded way that:
1. "Is is Science Fiction - no - none of what might be considered science is germane to the story or only marginally."

2. "I'll show that I am crazy here and say this is lazy writting or trying to fit a story into a genre"

My point of my "Flip" post was:
If it is a universal translator that makes this SF then let's think about that for a second.  The idea of the universal translator is to facilitate communication between an animal and human.  Well, if in other stories animals have been able to make their thoughts know to humans without a universal translator why isn't that SF?   The thoughts of the animal have been made know to the human and the humans to the animal.  Same result but lacking the eloquence of using a universal translator*.  I agree that Flipper and Dr. Dolittle are not SF.

So the question then becomes: what is it about the interaction between technology and humans (and in this case a dolphin) that makes it SF (or at least good SF).  My answer is it is how the scientific knowledge or technology affects the human condition.

Which brings me to my second point above.  The technology mentioned in the story are not germane to the plot line and does not affect the human condition and might have been inserted to fit the story into a SF genre.

Why do I mention these things? In the hope that we will get better stories.

But I think the lesson I learned is not to make make these points.  So I'll let it rest.

____________________________________
* Does inserting a universal translator into the following, make them SF?
Lassie
Gentle Ben
Flicka
Black Stalion
The Lone Ranger (Because of Silver)
Rin Tin Tin

[schark]

Just to throw my 2 cents in (shouldn't that be a lot more by now?), I tune in to this show not to parse details (I didn't even really listen to the water purification stuff) or determine the genre, I just want an enjoyable story.  I thought this one was cute.  Some of it was a little ham-handed and obvious, but all-in-all, especially given Steve Eley's wrap-up, it worked for me.  It was diverting.  It held together.  And it was just kind of fun.  Makes me happy.

Incidentally, I found Dex's profound dislike of this story interesting because we were on opposing sides of the aisle concerning "The Giving Plague" (he liked it, me not so much), and someone mentioned wanting to ditch the show after "Lust For Learning", which I really enjoyed.  I think it's a testament to Mr. Eley's story-picking skills that he keeps us all tuning in despite our clearly disparate interests in story content.

[eytanz]

But I think the lesson I learned is not to make make these points.  So I'll let it rest.

I think you're learning the wrong lesson here. The points you are trying to make are good points and interesting. It's just that they're a lot easier to understand when you explicitly lay them out (as in your last post) instead of making your points obliquely as in your previous posts.

[Russell Nash]

1. "Is is Science Fiction - no - none of what might be considered science is germane to the story or only marginally."

The science was used to set up the whole story.  You can not name a single SF story where I can't take the science out of it and still have the same basic story.  (This is repeating my initial comments to your first message)  It's fine if you don't like the story, but trying to say it isn't SF just doesn't pan out.  

I think on every story since March someone has tried to say it wasn't SF because of one reason or another.  The comment is getting old.  Star Wars is King Arthur.  A.I. is Pinochio.  BSG is the Trail of Tears.  

Wikipedia says:
Science fiction often involves one or more of the following elements:
—A setting in the future or in an alternative time line.
—A setting in outer space or involving aliens or unknown civilizations.
—The discovery or application of new scientific principles, such as time travel or psionics, or new technology, such as nanotechnology, faster-than-light travel or robots.
—Political or social systems different from those of the known present or past.

Exploring the consequences of such differences is the traditional purpose of science fiction, making it a "literature of ideas".

This story hits on 2 out of 4 points.

Is it Hard SF?  No, but Steve never said EP was only for H ard SF.  What he did say was that no one was submitting good Hard SF.  If you have a favorite Hard SF writer, send him an email and tell him EP needs his work.

[ClintMemo]

on the Flipper vs Ishmael debate:

I don't remember Flipper, but I assume it is similar to Lassie and every other show I have seen where the animal makes frantic noise and the human plays "20 questions" until they guess the right translation whereas the animal acknowledges their correct guess by making the appropriate response.

I play this same game with my two dogs 4 or 5 times a day.  I admit, they have never tried to tell me that my nine-year-old has fallen into the pool and is drowning. Usually, what they are trying to tell me is that they want attention, food, water or want to go outside. 
No universal translator required.

My point is that there is a HUGE difference between what my dogs can tell me, which is similar to Lassie, and Ishmael's ability to eloquently express his love for a person of another species.   That, to me, makes this science fiction.

[Dex]

You can not name a single SF story where I can't take the science out of it and still have the same basic story.

Soylent Green
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green

Soylent Green
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green

[Mr. Tweedy]

You can not name a single SF story where I can't take the science out of it and still have the same basic story.

Um, that's not true.  There are lots of stories that are just Shakespeare in space, but there are a lot where the fantastic element is absolutely crucial.  Just as one of many, many possible examples: Ender's Game.  You can't replace the telepathic, consciousness-dispersed aliens with human characters, and you can't have the types of military engagements described without the ansible, and you can't have Valentine and Peter pose as Locke and Demosthenes without the internet (which was ficticious at the time Ender's Game was written).

This story was not one of those: You could do "Ishmael" with a Tarzan and Jane scenario, as eytanz suggested.  But there certainly are many stories from the which the sci-fi/fantasy elements could absolutely not be expunged.

[slic]

You can not name a single SF story where I can't take the science out of it and still have the same basic story.

Um, that's not true.

I think you meant to include Fantasy because I see the reference but not explictly stated.  Fantasy can replace any sci-fi story easily enough.  However, because of the more familiar elements, I find that Fantasy does a better job telling the story about the characters.  How all these big events affect their lives.

I find the Sci-Fi I enjoy the best is when the characters are secondary to the Idea (though they should still be compelling).  Taking Ender's Game as the example - it's about Ender, how the situation affects him, his family and so on.  I love the book and really felt for Ender, but the story was fantasy with sci-fi dressing.  Firefly/Serenity with all it's spaceships and terraformed planets is fantasy.  Star Trek (TOS and TNG) flipped between fantasy and sci-fi often.

A good example of what I mean is the Beserker series by Fred Saberhagen.  Here is the idea of roaming killer robots and how they affect society; "Bad Life" vs "Good Life"

Sci-Fi to me is taking what we know now and changing it, making it bigger, faster, better/worse and seeing how it affects the world.

The problem with this kind of story is Ishmael was so easily replaced by a geeky kid and you get the same result.

[Dex]

Just to be clear all my comments refer to Science Fiction - Not Fantasy.  I believe that to be true for the discussion Russel Nash and I are having also.

[DKT]

The science was used to set up the whole story.  You can not name a single SF story where I can't take the science out of it and still have the same basic story.  (This is repeating my initial comments to your first message)  It's fine if you don't like the story, but trying to say it isn't SF just doesn't pan out.  

I think on every story since March someone has tried to say it wasn't SF because of one reason or another.  The comment is getting old.  Star Wars is King Arthur.  A.I. is Pinochio.  BSG is the Trail of Tears.  

You read my thoughts on "another debate about whether an EP story was SF?"

Generally, I enjoyed this story.  I don't mind some of the problems other people have mentioned, mostly because I can chalk it up to being published in the 70s.  That said, the one thing I had a hard time with was why Lisabeth decided to get naked before jumping into the tank.  I mean, I can understand her getting in the tank, but I agree with whoever said that it just didn't seem smart.  I don't know if I'll ever read/listen to it again, but I'm glad I listened to it it once.   

[Russell Nash]

Generally, I enjoyed this story.  I don't mind some of the problems other people have mentioned, mostly because I can chalk it up to being published in the 70s.  That said, the one thing I had a hard time with was why Lisabeth decided to get naked before jumping into the tank.  I mean, I can understand her getting in the tank, but I agree with whoever said that it just didn't seem smart.  I don't know if I'll ever read/listen to it again, but I'm glad I listened to it it once.   

I think the getting naked thing was just because the clothes she was wearing were inapprobriate for swimming.  I think it was a long summer dress or something like that.  Maybe since it was really hot, or just because it was written in the 70s, she wasn't wearing underwear.

[Russell Nash]

You can not name a single SF story where I can't take the science out of it and still have the same basic story.

Soylent Green
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green

Soylent Green
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green

OK.  A movie I want to see starts soon, so I'm just cranking this out, but here goes.  I didn't read the full description and I never saw the film, but I think I have the basics.

We have a large wagon train on the Oregon Trail.  They winter over in a place in the Rockies.  Part way through the winter the guy in charge of the supplies does the math and realizes they don't have enough to make it.  He calls together the leaders and they decide they can butcher a couple of the horses or oxen. 

A little later one of the men falls from a tree and breaks his neck.  The supply guy goes back to the leaders and says that they still don't have enough food, but what if they fill the casket with dirt and butcher and smoke this guy along with the ox.  Throughout the winter there are a couple more accidents, a guy they kill after he goes nuts with cabin fever, and a guy they catch trying to rape someone's 13 year old daughter.  Towards the end Charlton Heston discovers what they were doing and screams, "the ox meat is people!"

Copyright 2007 Russell Nash Publishing

[Dex]

You can not name a single SF story where I can't take the science out of it and still have the same basic story.

Soylent Green
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green

Soylent Green
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green

OK.  A movie I want to see starts soon, so I'm just cranking this out, but here goes.  I didn't read the full description and I never saw the film, but I think I have the basics.

We have a large wagon train on the Oregon Trail.  They winter over in a place in the Rockies.  Part way through the winter the guy in charge of the supplies does the math and realizes they don't have enough to make it.  He calls together the leaders and they decide they can butcher a couple of the horses or oxen. 

A little later one of the men falls from a tree and breaks his neck.  The supply guy goes back to the leaders and says that they still don't have enough food, but what if they fill the casket with dirt and butcher and smoke this guy along with the ox.  Throughout the winter there are a couple more accidents, a guy they kill after he goes nuts with cabin fever, and a guy they catch trying to rape someone's 13 year old daughter.  Towards the end Charlton Heston discovers what they were doing and screams, "the ox meat is people!"

Copyright 2007 Russell Nash Publishing

I guessing you're giving me back my "Flipper/Flip" comments.

Take some time - read the wikipedia info; identify the science in the story and then take it out of the story.  I'm assuming you want to have a serious discussion about it; if you don't just say something innocuous in your next post and let's move on.

Thanks

[SFEley]

That said, the one thing I had a hard time with was why Lisabeth decided to get naked before jumping into the tank.  I mean, I can understand her getting in the tank, but I agree with whoever said that it just didn't seem smart.

Maybe it's the crowd I run with, but skinny dipping with a dolphin just for amusement didn't seem like implausible behavior to me.  Heck, I've gone skinny dipping with far more dubious mammals.  >8->

[Mr. Tweedy]

It's just one more way she wasn't taking him seriously.  To her, he was just a critter, so being naked in front of him meant nothing.  Do I care if my rabbit sees me naked?  The fly  on the ceiling?  No.  People only care if other people see them naked, and she did not regard Ishmael as a person.  He was actually correct in being hurt when she covered herself up in from of the human male: The man seeing her naked meant something, but Ishmael seeing her meant nothing.

Poor Ishmael.   :'(

[DKT]

Right, I get that and to a large degree it makes sense.  Who cares if my cats see me naked?  I don't think they're in love with me, although they do like to jump me when I'm laying down or rub up against my leg.    OMG!  I always thought they just wanted food!

Seriously, though, I guess I had a hard time with it because they were communicating and Ishmael had already started to profess her feelings to her.  So for her to take her clothes off indicated something more intimate (which in the end, I know was what Silverburg intended us to feel with Ishmael).  I might be off on the timeline of that bit, though. 

Maybe it's the crowd I run with, but skinny dipping with a dolphin just for amusement didn't seem like implausible behavior to me.  Heck, I've gone skinny dipping with far more dubious mammals.  >8->

Tease!

[Russell Nash]

You can not name a single SF story where I can't take the science out of it and still have the same basic story.

Soylent Green
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green

Soylent Green
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green

OK.  A movie I want to see starts soon, so I'm just cranking this out, but here goes.  I didn't read the full description and I never saw the film, but I think I have the basics.

We have a large wagon train on the Oregon Trail.  They winter over in a place in the Rockies.  Part way through the winter the guy in charge of the supplies does the math and realizes they don't have enough to make it.  He calls together the leaders and they decide they can butcher a couple of the horses or oxen. 

A little later one of the men falls from a tree and breaks his neck.  The supply guy goes back to the leaders and says that they still don't have enough food, but what if they fill the casket with dirt and butcher and smoke this guy along with the ox.  Throughout the winter there are a couple more accidents, a guy they kill after he goes nuts with cabin fever, and a guy they catch trying to rape someone's 13 year old daughter.  Towards the end Charlton Heston discovers what they were doing and screams, "the ox meat is people!"

Copyright 2007 Russell Nash Publishing

I guessing you're giving me back my "Flipper/Flip" comments.

Take some time - read the wikipedia info; identify the science in the story and then take it out of the story.  I'm assuming you want to have a serious discussion about it; if you don't just say something innocuous in your next post and let's move on.

Thanks

I read the full plot description at wikipedia. It breaks down to a group of people can not feed itself and the leaders sneak human remains into the food supply.  Everything else is window dressing.  There's the whole euthanasia angle but that's not specifically SF either.

If there is a serious plot point I'm not covering, let me know.  

[Dex]

You can not name a single SF story where I can't take the science out of it and still have the same basic story.

Soylent Green
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green

Soylent Green
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green

OK.  A movie I want to see starts soon, so I'm just cranking this out, but here goes.  I didn't read the full description and I never saw the film, but I think I have the basics.

We have a large wagon train on the Oregon Trail.  They winter over in a place in the Rockies.  Part way through the winter the guy in charge of the supplies does the math and realizes they don't have enough to make it.  He calls together the leaders and they decide they can butcher a couple of the horses or oxen. 

A little later one of the men falls from a tree and breaks his neck.  The supply guy goes back to the leaders and says that they still don't have enough food, but what if they fill the casket with dirt and butcher and smoke this guy along with the ox.  Throughout the winter there are a couple more accidents, a guy they kill after he goes nuts with cabin fever, and a guy they catch trying to rape someone's 13 year old daughter.  Towards the end Charlton Heston discovers what they were doing and screams, "the ox meat is people!"

Copyright 2007 Russell Nash Publishing

I guessing you're giving me back my "Flipper/Flip" comments.

Take some time - read the wikipedia info; identify the science in the story and then take it out of the story.  I'm assuming you want to have a serious discussion about it; if you don't just say something innocuous in your next post and let's move on.

Thanks

I read the full plot description at wikipedia. It breaks down to a group of people can not feed itself and the leaders sneak human remains into the food supply.  Everything else is window dressing.  There's the whole euthanasia angle but that's not specifically SF either.

If there is a serious plot point I'm not covering, let me know. 

I'm going to take my own advise here and say something innocuous.  I have to go to sleep early today to get up early for a hike tomorrow.  Let's end it here.
Thanks

[Coyote]

I wanted to like this story, really. I mean, it's about dolphins working in a purification plant. What's not to love?

But I just couldn't enjoy it. It struck me a dull, and I noticed the author relying on technology and such too much in the story. Now, I know this sounds crazy, but IMO a good SF story cannot be about science. All stories, long or short, drama or tragedy, Fantasy or SF, rely on characters. Readers find pleasure in being able to relate somehow to what they are reading, and if the story is more about the world the characters are in, the reader is going to feel isolated.

[Russell Nash]

This may be a first.  We now have complaints about not enough technology and too much technology in the same story.

I'm going to take my own advise here and say something innocuous.  I have to go to sleep early today to get up early for a hike tomorrow.  Let's end it here.
Thanks

Seriously, if I missed an important point, tell me. 

[Jonathan C. Gillespie]

I wouldn't worry about it too much.  You're never going to please everyone.  If we look at the past several tales you guys have published, most have been solid hits, and even the debate about "Sci-Fi or not" is usually prefaced with "But I really enjoyed this".

In my case, I found the tale an interesting portrayal of companionate love as a cetacen might see it.  I thought Ishmael was a robustly developed character, and I shared his frustration over the antagonist's (and yes, that's what she is in this story, when you think about it) inability to respect him or acknowledge him on a deeper level than one might regard a loveable pet.  In her defense, though, I think she misinterpreted his affections to be plutonic.

The most interesting thing to me, though, is how people are pegging it as old-fashioned.  I strongly disagree with this point of view.  The tale was far ahead of its time, and is a testament to Silverberg's risk-taking.  This story's fairly heavy sexual content strays close to sexual encounters across species lines.  The fact that this was picked up in the 70's echoes the sexual liberation of that time, but even so, one wonders what the reaction of the reader base was when it arrived.

There's much to like.  As a literary peon, I hesitate to criticize one of the greats, but I will say that the section with Ishmael roving the ocean, heartbroken, for days fell short of imparting the emotional weight I believe was intended.  Rather, the section feels condensed -- perhaps due to over-zealous word count reduction -- and feels disjointed compared to the rest of the tale.  Furthermore, Ishmael succumbs to virtually no penalties for this neglect of his duties, which wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for the fact that Ishmael -- and the author -- don't make a big deal out of that (at least, that I can remember).  It would have been a perfect spot to have Ishmael complain about how he isn't even regarded on the same level as a human worker, as his getting off easy is indicative of his treatment as an amusing beast.

Overall, the story invokes much thought, involves a juxtaposition of reality as we know it, with dolphins proving more mature in many ways than mighty man, and the future-tech is everywhere.  I call it science fiction, and even if it isn't, I don't care.