Author Topic: Sex in SF and Literature  (Read 32664 times)

Scattercat

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Reply #75 on: July 14, 2010, 05:55:14 AM
Leaving things unspoken is always my preferred route.  You'd hardly find me arguing against that.

Yet that doesn't mean that all sex scenes are unnecessary.  Again, no one here is arguing that gratuitous graphic sex should be added to every story.  Most people agree that it's rarely done well and often unedifying at best.  You are not trying to convince us that most stories don't need graphic sex scenes, or that sex scenes that don't advance the plot or enable some sort of character advancement can be dispensed with.  You are supposed to be defending your assertion that sex scenes are ALL worthless and that no scenes such as the ones referenced in ElectricPaladin's omnibus assist in creating an artistic effect or can be elevating in themselves.  If you're willing to back down from that to "Most sex scenes, especially poorly-written or gratuitous ones, aren't very good or artistically necessary," then congratulations, we mostly agree.  I take umbrage at the notion that ALL sex scenes are AUTOMATICALLY and UNAVOIDABLY detrimental either to health, emotional maturity, or artistic value, which is the point you've posited repeatedly thus far.



Seraphim

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Reply #76 on: July 14, 2010, 06:20:23 AM
Quote
You are supposed to be defending your assertion that sex scenes are ALL worthless and that no scenes such as the ones referenced in ElectricPaladin's omnibus assist in creating an artistic effect or can be elevating in themselves.

Am I?  Besides, I recall my assertion somewhat differently, more at if there is such a thing as a narratively necessary, artistically justified, let alone elevating, graphic sex scene, I've never encountered it.

Quote
If you're willing to back down from that to "Most sex scenes, especially poorly-written or gratuitous ones, aren't very good or artistically necessary," then congratulations, we mostly agree.
How can I back down from an assertion that has been recast so as to be unrecognizable to me as my own?

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I take umbrage at the notion that ALL sex scenes are AUTOMATICALLY and UNAVOIDABLY detrimental either to health, emotional maturity, or artistic value,

To riff on my statement above if there exist graphic sex scenes that are not "AUTOMATICALLY and UNAVOIDABLY detrimental either to health, emotional maturity, or artistic value", then again I must say, I've yet to encounter these literary unicorns.

I do stand by my assertion that even if genuinely possible to do such scenes with great artistry, just because it can be done is not an argument or sufficient justification that it should be done. I'm sorry if it offends you, and you may take umbrage if you wish.  I take umbrage at graphic sex scenes and cannot understand how anyone can sensibly defend them...but the world keeps spinning and people keep writing as they will without any reference or deference to my umbrage. And that said I would rather not go back down this rabbit trail again. For the time being I would rather address the question from the perspective of craft.

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You are not trying to convince us that most stories don't need graphic sex scenes, or that sex scenes that don't advance the plot or enable some sort of character advancement can be dispensed with.

No I'm not, at the moment I'm trying to discuss why attempts at the inclusion of graphic sex scenes so often fall flat.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 06:29:11 AM by Seraphim »



Scattercat

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Reply #77 on: July 14, 2010, 12:48:00 PM
"I have never encountered..."  "literary unicorn..." etc. are all phrases that strongly imply that you are flatly denying such a thing can exist.  If you're not willing to stand up and own your claims, then phooey.

---

As for an existing artistic use...

*Points to "Spar."

That story is graphic, but also powerful and artistic.  Many, many people have found it so (as witness it being nominated for a Hugo.  You say it is not *because* of the graphic nature of the sex in it.  This is a bit of a tautology in that you claim the reason it is not art is because of its graphic nature, and the reason the graphic nature prevents it from being art is because graphic sex (in your view) prevents anything from being art.

Do you not see how this is kind of silly?



Seraphim

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Reply #78 on: July 14, 2010, 02:31:59 PM
Scattercat,

Quote
"I have never encountered..."  "literary unicorn..." etc. are all phrases that strongly imply that you are flatly denying such a thing can exist.

It seems to me my words do not strongly imply but expressly state...I've never encountered them (either as artistically justified beyond all other concerns, or as without harm), and I've read quite a lot in my life.

So, I think you are twisting my words a little, I never denied that it was possible to deal with graphic sex artistically, though I do believe the artistic success of such efforts is vanishingly rare. To quote you interpreting me "I take umbrage at the notion that ALL sex scenes are AUTOMATICALLY and UNAVOIDABLY detrimental either to health, emotional maturity, or artistic value."  At this juncture in our conversation you are not saying I'm denying such scenes can be done artfully, but that artful or not by their nature they are detrimental and lessen the artistic value of whatever they are a part of. So which is it?

But to move the conversation forward, let us say that Spar by virtue of its artistry rises far above the common sex scene, I do not know because as you know I do not care for graphic sex scenes at all, let alone stories primarily about sexual encounter, so I've no intention of listening to or reading it, ever, but still let us say Spar is the exception in its artistry. What then have I said that would be indicative of my feelings toward such exceptions.  Let me quote myself, "I do stand by my assertion that even if genuinely possible to do such scenes with great artistry, just because it can be done is not an argument or sufficient justification that it should be done."
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 02:37:55 PM by Seraphim »



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Reply #79 on: July 14, 2010, 04:08:16 PM
Quote
You are supposed to be defending your assertion that sex scenes are ALL worthless and that no scenes such as the ones referenced in ElectricPaladin's omnibus assist in creating an artistic effect or can be elevating in themselves.

Am I?  Besides, I recall my assertion somewhat differently, more at if there is such a thing as a narratively necessary, artistically justified, let alone elevating, graphic sex scene, I've never encountered it.

Well, this is what you actually said:

To this day I've never encountered any sex scene in any book or story that had any serious purpose beyond titillation I could discern.

(Emphasis mine.)

So I think Scattercat's reaction - that you have claimed there is no artistic merit beyond titillation - is a pretty fair claim.

If it weren't for that sentence, at least in my mind, this discussion would be quite different. No one's suggesting you should read more stories that feature sex. You should read what you want to read, and if you don't like it - cool. Nobody's saying you need to listen to "Spar". You've already expressed you don't want that story in your head, and nobody's trying to force it there. (Again - that's why we rate, that's why we have content warnings, that's why first sentences can be so great.) But with that sentence, the debate is: Can stories exist with sexual content that goes "beyond titillation."

Another issue, is you're making several different arguments. You recently said:


I do stand by my assertion that even if genuinely possible to do such scenes with great artistry, just because it can be done is not an argument or sufficient justification that it should be done.

Which is a different discussion. It's a fascinating one, and I wouldn't mind having it either, but it's not the same discussion as the one above.

And then there's the whole "people who read stories with sexual content will be emotionally damaged, etc." Another argument - one I'm personally less interested in, because from my perspective, it isn't true. At least not, for me. It may be true for you, and I can respect that. But I don't accept it as a blanket statement, and without any evidence, you're going to have a difficult time going beyond you on this one.

So there's several different things going on (I've skipped a few).


Scattercat

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Reply #80 on: July 14, 2010, 07:21:17 PM
*points at DKT

*wanders off



Seraphim

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Reply #81 on: July 14, 2010, 11:01:24 PM
Doesn't the "that I can discern" carry sufficient weight?  It certainly parallels my statement, "I've not as yet encountered any."  That aspect of what I've said keeps seemly to get mislaid. 

To go back to this quote:
Quote
To this day I've never encountered any sex scene in any book or story that had any serious purpose beyond titillation I could discern.

Let's examine why I feel this is a serious and defensible assertion.

Let's say we have a meticulously crafted, artfully worded graphic sex scene.  One of the things strong writing does is engage the reader drawing them into the world created by the author. So here we have a strong bit of writing that is taking a reader into a full on explicit sexual description. And being well written, the reader is engaged with the characters and the action, all the hot flushing, sweating, touching, kissing, tasting, feeling, moving etc.  In measure they respond in their body and their mind to this directed fantasy. They are sexually stimulated/aroused in some degree by what they read.  Whatever else is happening artistically, whatever deep thoughts they get to ponder latter, in that moment it is their libido that is being addressed...perhaps negatively in a brutal sex scene, but addressed nonetheless. That, I think, is pretty much what titillation is about. And I do not think that it is a good thing to do to anyone.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 11:19:52 PM by Seraphim »



Scattercat

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Reply #82 on: July 15, 2010, 12:16:19 AM
If the emotion of arousal is necessary to the artistic effect of the piece - as in "Spar," where it is created and subverted by the brutality of the situation and the crudity of the language - then yes, that's a fine thing to do in a work of art.  Art also evokes terror and melancholy, yes?  Is it bad to read scary scenes or scenes of heartwrenching sadness?  Those emotions both have measurable negative effects on the body and brain from the chemical changes that take place, stress hormones and so on, whereas arousal is pretty much just good for the body, in moderation.  Lots of positive and cheerful hormones sloshing around all over. 



Bdoomed

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Reply #83 on: July 15, 2010, 12:55:13 AM
I see what you are saying.  It really boils down to opinion in the end: do I want to subject myself to this scene, knowing (or perhaps not knowing) what it will do to me, and am I okay with that?  However you also have the sex scenes that are artfully crafted but not sexually stimulating, such as the one mentioned in 1984.  Those do nothing but convey meaning.

At this point, I will actually argue against that statement, because I am interested in the discussion and not the result at which I would personally like to arrive.  When I read 1984 back in 8th grade, our teacher explicitly warned us about those chapters with sex, and allowed us to choose whether or not we would read it.  I highly respect my teacher for this, and we never discussed those chapters anything more than 'they have sex in this chapter'.  The book does go on without those scenes just fine.  Skipping them does not detract a whole lot from the book as a whole.  However, those chapters do add another dimension to the world that Orwell built.  Necessary?  No.  Effective?  Yes.

I will also argue that sexually explicit writing, and even the stimulation because of it, is not a bad thing.  I see that facet of writing and film and art as just another way to experience the human condition.  I find it odd that society allows for nudity in art without a second thought, but it is completely different in film and writing.  But that is another argument.  Back to the experience of the human condition... because I see it that way, I do not agree with you that sexual themes/scenes/anything is damaging to the mind/spirit/body/what have you.  It is just another appreciation, like one would appreciate watching a mother smile at her baby. 

Given, one is way more 'innocent' than the other, but in the end they are both very human experiences, and I think they should be treated equally.  However, then you get into "well what do you want children to see?"  To that I say, and I won't generalize to everyone here, as an adult, I can see beauty in many more things than I could as a child.  As a child, I did not appreciate art as I do now, nor film, nor writing.  It is almost akin, but not really, to acquiring a taste for coffee.

Actually, instead of that metaphor, I want to use this one:  When Stravinsky's Rite of Spring came out, it was pretty much hated by everyone, to the point that people apparently rioted.  However, once prepared for the dissonant sounds thanks to the first audience, the second audience absolutely loved it.  They were able to hear the music for its merits.  The human brain adapts relatively quickly to new things, and in this case, it turned dissonance into melody.  Personally, The Augurs of Spring is one of my all time favorite pieces.  Partially because I grew up with Fantasia.  Anyways, being able to appreciate something as dissonant as Stravinsky's Augurs of Spring is, in my opinion, akin to being able to appreciate otherwise appalling and explicit scenes, being able to see the beauty and meaning and art in them.  And, if as a byproduct, there is sexual stimulation, I do not see anything wrong with that.  It is a very human reaction.

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


Seraphim

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Reply #84 on: July 15, 2010, 04:46:28 AM
It does boil down to an opinion in many respects, and that opinion is inextricably rooted in our notions of morality. My views, as noted previously, are considerably more absolutist than others. I do not invent my own moral compass. And according to that compass given me while there is room for condescension to human weakness and limitation, there are still boundaries, thresholds that must not be crossed because the transgression of those thresholds is ultimately destructive to the best good of the person and of society. Sexual explicitness I believe is one of those thresholds.  For certain classes of people the threshold is even more closely circumscribed, monastics for example, for whom the stimulation of any carnal appetite is unwelcome. Most of us aren't called to be monastics though.

We live in a more libertine and a more pluralistic time than ages past, and so less and less are such moral schemas given general credence. Of course I am not of the persuasion that vox populi is automatically co-inherent with vox Dei...in my world view, the crowd can be wrong. 

So why the line in the sand at explicit sexual content...where does sexual content pass from provocative (in a good way) to pruriant? I think most of us would agree that gratuitous anything in a putative work of art diminishes that art, teen slasher films like the Halloween franchise being a case in point. They will never individually or collectively be positively compared with the Russian film Ostrov, a quiet but staggeringly rich masterpiece of cinematography and storytelling. Since sex and sexuality are indeed part of the human condition then why is it objectionable to deal with them as explicitly in the arts as with any other facet of the human condition such as joy, grief, suffering, love, triumph, or despair, all the more when any of these things among so many others can be threaded through the experience of sex? Why when these things are suggested together with sex, it often works so well, so powerfully...but when the sex is explicit it rarely (if ever in my book) is able to do so?

It seems to me that there are two (though there may be more) substantive reasons why explicit sex scenes so often fall flat artistically and why they are an artistic choice that is extraordinarily hard to justify.  Beyond the pragmatics of my butt shot critique in earlier posts, the first reason lies in the consideration that I've outlined earlier that such scenes are by their nature coarsening to the human psyche. They offer too little in the way of that which is pure, unfeigned, just, beautiful, true, and of good report to justify them.  The human soul is simply not ennobled by them...and what effects the person effects the person's world and all others in it, and I happen to think we should make at least a minimal effort to see to it that the effect of our life on the life others is to their good.

I hear the objections now...what about war, murder, abandonment, torture, injustice, disease, etc...all these things are dealt with in great detail on stage, on film, on canvas, and in print, and of themselves not one of them is ennobling. Leaving gratuitous excess aside, what make these things permissible even desirable for our contemplation in their explicitness, but not sex? In what way do we discover beauty and truth and purity and goodness in them?  I think this takes us back, way back to what the Greeks understood about the purpose of their plays and public storytelling.  They expected public catharsis through identification with the characters and the plot. We might say they expected a kind of enlargement...a healing of their hearts. The festering volatilities of the human psyche could be lanced, duty learned, empathy experienced.  It took them out of themselves and showed them their connection to each other, to the gods, to their past, and to their posterity across the ages. These terrible and ignoble things are but individual mouths of the great wound that weeps in the heart of humanity...the wound we are easily cognizant of in ourselves, hence our many excuses for our failings...but we are so often blind to them in others. Art can be the apotheosis of these things, their redemption by becoming vessels of empathy and catharsis. We learn the suffering of our neighbor is our own.  We learn mercy and forbearance.  But this seldom if ever happens with sexually explicit materials. Grant certain of the interweaving circumstances evoke positive effects in the reader, but they are offset by the constant appeal to the burning appetite.  The reader on the one hand may be sympathetic to a given character plight that is entangled with sex...but the sexual content itself engenders a certain delight that is savored even if on reflection the reader/viewer/hearer is disgusted with himself for feeling that way.  Why does it so easily do this? I think that brings us to the second reason.

It is related to the question Bdoomed poised,
Quote
I find it odd that society allows for nudity in art without a second thought, but it is completely different in film and writing.
. To a large extent I think this is at heart an expression of our relation to sign and symbol. A painting or a drawing is ontologically much further removed from us than film or writing. As a representation it lies closer to the world of sign...this image represents a person. When we see actors or read stories we are ontologically much closer...those are the real actions of real people captured in situ sexually engaged before our eyes, their very impress on film, their symbol. We do not participate in signs...we are informed by them at a distance, but symbols are gateways to participation in the thing itself because the ontological connection is strong...so with this explicit film and its exposition of this normally very private aspect of the human condition, wittingly or not, we have ceased to be admirers/students of the human condition, but become its voyeurs.  Deep inside we know that we are engaged in a kind of trespass...we may enjoy the trespass, but it is a trespass nonetheless. It is similar with writing.  It is ontologically a symbol, in this case of the author's mind. We are thinking their thoughts after them, having our mental eye and ear guided by them point by point...and they are showing us the naturally intimate and private and rendering us voyeurs again...and worse, for by following their depictions, letting them guide our imagination and stimulate us as they will then we enter the realm not just of the voyeuristic, but the masturbatory...they may fondle us verbally with great art but they are for all intents and purposes running their hands down our pants while telling us a story. Maybe some are open minded enough not mind that...but, I am not one of them.



« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 04:50:41 AM by Seraphim »



Scattercat

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Reply #85 on: July 15, 2010, 05:07:54 AM
You keep writing these really long posts that don't do anything but baldly assert over and over that explicit sex scenes are "coarsening" to the human psyche.  They're very pretty verbiage, but asserting something over and over is not the same as proving it.

WHAT IS TRUE FOR YOU IS NOT TRUE FOR EVERYONE.

YOU don't find purity, beauty, or a connection to the ages in sex and nudity and etc.  Okay, that's fine.  Whatever floats your boat.  OTHER PEOPLE (rather a lot of them, to judge from a lot of the art we have) DO.

Hell, the literal oldest art we know about revolves around sex and violence.  (Mother-goddess fertility carvings and cave paintings of hunts.)  You don't think half of that equation counts, but your only explanation as to why keeps boiling down to "because I said so."

You know what?  I give up.  Someone else try repeating yourself over and over and over and getting nothing back but meandering essays full of five-dollar words in some sort of weird attempt to win by dint of syllable count.



Seraphim

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Reply #86 on: July 15, 2010, 06:02:16 AM
Win?

Since when was it a contest? I thought it was a discussion. Nor have I been trying to prove anything, or anything other than answer the questions asked of me regarding my opinions on this subject. They are my opinions, and I hold them because I think they are right but I'm under no illusions that there are a lot who agree with me.  I have noticed my questions don't get much in the way of answers though.  It would have been nice to have had some of them actually engaged, but no matter. Thank you however for thinking my verbiage is pretty. 

That said, please recall, that I tried to move away from all this and discuss the issue of sex in SF from the point of view of craft, but you didn't want to let it go. So if you are tired of telling me over and over and over again that I'm wrong and I've got different truths than everybody else's truths it's not because there were no other options on the table.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 06:18:22 AM by Seraphim »



DKT

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Reply #87 on: July 15, 2010, 05:56:06 PM
Let's say we have a meticulously crafted, artfully worded graphic sex scene.  One of the things strong writing does is engage the reader drawing them into the world created by the author. So here we have a strong bit of writing that is taking a reader into a full on explicit sexual description. And being well written, the reader is engaged with the characters and the action, all the hot flushing, sweating, touching, kissing, tasting, feeling, moving etc.  In measure they respond in their body and their mind to this directed fantasy. They are sexually stimulated/aroused in some degree by what they read.  Whatever else is happening artistically, whatever deep thoughts they get to ponder latter, in that moment it is their libido that is being addressed...perhaps negatively in a brutal sex scene, but addressed nonetheless. That, I think, is pretty much what titillation is about. And I do not think that it is a good thing to do to anyone.

Again, I'd like to point out that you're only talking about sex you describe that's meant to excite or arouse. And while I don't agree with your conclusions (for me personally - again, I'm not trying to make you read more sex), many more emotions can be communicated in an explicitly written description of sex (and FTR, I'd like to remind everyone that in this case, explicit seems to indicate any kind of description beyond a closed door). There's humor, there's loss, there's healing, there's beauty. There is so much more than lust when it comes to sex. There are certainly stories about lust - but it doesn't stop there.

Jonathan Lethem writes heartbreakingly hilarious sex. See Motherless Brooklyn, or (for all you SF fans) As She Climbed Across the Table.

Chuck Palahniuk pretty much covers the gamut of emotions/reactions when it comes to sex: everything from gross to funny to addictive.

Michael Chabon's books and stories also do quite a bit - disturbing, beautiful, funny, and like Lethem - sometimes just plain sexy.

Merrie Haskell's "Sun's East, Moon's West" at PC has some very funny sex in it.

The libraries are full of them, and there's a decent amount in the PC and EP archives.

Another way of looking at it: All the episodes run on EP and PodCastle are rated, just like films are rated. We try to specify for our listeners (sometimes unsuccessfully) when there's going to be explicit violence, explicit sex, explicit language, etc. That said, all of these elements (and others) can be used to convey different types of emotion: excitement, terror, loss, humor, healing, beauty.

Quentin Tarrantino makes violence both disturbing and funny. (So does Elmore Leonard.)

So my argument is that sex in literature is meant to do much more than simply arouse or excite, although it can do that, too.


Seraphim

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Reply #88 on: July 15, 2010, 06:37:48 PM
Quote
So my argument is that sex in literature is meant to do much more than simply arouse or excite, although it can do that, too.

As noted in your quote, I agree, much more can be going on in an explicit sex scene than the sex itself. The sex can serve as the expression of these other things or as the reflector of other things. Just as a point of clarity, what I mean by reflector is something in a story that is not important in itself but around which the other stuff circles and rebounds...like a couple angry over frustrated hidden agendas at breakfast...one gets all snippy about the toast and they have a big argument about toast, but the toast is not really what the argument is about; the angry passion reflected in the over-crisp bread is boiling up from another place. This type of craft would definitely elevate the piece, but it seems to me there are other ways to give narrative expression to these other interwoven more desirable elements that do not require sexual explicitness.  Beyond that even though these other well chosen elements are present, the titillation aspect is also present in the graphic depictions. I cannot see any way to excise that aspect short eschewing explicitness in favor of artful suggestion and implication (the Rhett and Scarlett thing). 

So I'm not saying such passages have no other purpose narratively speaking but rather  whatever their other purpose, explicit sexual depiction inescapably involves some significant measure of titillation, at least so far as I can tell.  Speaking for myself, I am not convinced that the artistry of the other elements are ever of such significance and weight that they make the titillation aspect acceptable. Nor do I think such stimulation is a worthy end to desire in itself. That's why I prefer all sexual relations in literature to be presented at a distance, suggested, not shown.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 06:40:21 PM by Seraphim »



Bdoomed

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Reply #89 on: July 15, 2010, 06:51:57 PM
So I'm not saying such passages have no other purpose narratively speaking but rather  whatever their other purpose, explicit sexual depiction inescapably involves some significant measure of titillation, at least so far as I can tell.  Speaking for myself, I am not convinced that the artistry of the other elements are ever of such significance and weight that they make the titillation aspect acceptable. Nor do I think such stimulation is a worthy end to desire in itself. That's why I prefer all sexual relations in literature to be presented at a distance, suggested, not shown.

I 98% agree.  I say 98 to allow for passages I haven't read/examples I don't know of, but as far as I know, there are other ways of expressing the same emotions most often, if not always.  I just don't mind it.

However, none of palahniuk's novels would be the same without explicit everything.  I guess there's my 2% disagreement...

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


Bdoomed

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Reply #90 on: July 15, 2010, 06:53:16 PM
Though... I don't think many people are titillated by Palahniuk's explicit writing...

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


stePH

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Reply #91 on: July 16, 2010, 01:13:03 AM
I do not invent my own moral compass.

Um.... what?  ???  So who invented it for you, then?  Where'd you get it?

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Seraphim

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Reply #92 on: July 16, 2010, 03:02:52 AM
I think that was covered in some earlier posts.  Suffice it to say its a church thing, a question of the Tradition. It informs and has helped shaped my moral compass such as it is...not that I live up to its ideals/standards with any consistency...that is a day by day thing.



Talia

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Reply #93 on: July 16, 2010, 03:52:41 AM
I think that was covered in some earlier posts.  Suffice it to say its a church thing, a question of the Tradition. It informs and has helped shaped my moral compass such as it is...not that I live up to its ideals/standards with any consistency...that is a day by day thing.

So those of us who don't follow your faith are just immoral or what? (full disclosure: Atheist here.)

Its been my experience that tradition is well-best shucked, in virtually every instance. Staying rooted in the past is a sure step towards stagnation as a culture.

Look at the civilations steeped in old traditions today. Largely, we call these third-world countries.



Seraphim

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Reply #94 on: July 16, 2010, 04:32:31 AM
Soooo the natural implication of my answering a question concerning what shapes my moral outlook is somehow the equivalent of automatically construing the morality of others as deficient?  Anyway, we have enough trouble getting those who do follow our faith to live morally. Those outside our faith will just have to do the best they can by such lights as they have; we're pretty busy trying to get straight what's wrong with ourselves.

On Tradition: It has been my experience that the Tradition is best treasured.  As for being rooted in the past there is an old Russian proverb, "Look to the past, lose an eye. Forget the past, lose both eyes."  Besides trees don't grow from their branches they grow from their roots.  I think there is a technical term for branches that loose connection to their roots...oh yes, lumber.

Otherwise I'm sorry if you are wanting me to pronounce some kind of general judgment on you, that's not my job. Besides this thread is not about benchmarks to judging your neighbor's morality.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2010, 04:34:27 AM by Seraphim »



Talia

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Reply #95 on: July 16, 2010, 04:48:59 AM
OK, I'm sorry, mayhap I overreacted. I seem to have caused offense when I didn't mean to.

Regarding the past:
I think maybe the answer lies somewhere in between. Learn from the past. Don't rely on it.

Difficulty is finding the place in between. :)

Wasn't wanting pronouncement, was just feeling vaguely judged. But you're right, my feelings aren't relevant to the general gist of the thread. I guess I should STFU & GBTW :P



Seraphim

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Reply #96 on: July 16, 2010, 05:03:54 AM
No offense taken...a cautious peeking through the palisade to check for the sudden appearance of flying eggs and other objects repurposed as small missiles...but no offense.

Addendum:
thank you though for mentioning that you were an atheist. It reminded me of one of my old college roommates, and I've spent the last several minutes reflecting on his life. He was one of the dearest friends I have ever had. We went to church together with our other friends for years; he married the girl I was interested in (who started hanging out with him to avoid me and my clumsy youthful advances). In time they divorced when he had a crisis of sexual identity, later he had a crisis of faith became an atheist and then he finished his graduate degree in Portuguese Literature (I'm not sure the two are related). Then we lost contact for several years. Sadly, I learned from his brother that he had contracted and then died of HIV/AIDS and I had found out too late, a couple of months after the fact...and never got to say goodbye.  To this day, even with the loss of contact over all those years, I miss his friendship, very much and think about him often.  I suspect that even as an atheist he remained a better Christian than I could ever hope to be. Till the time his health completely failed him he visited with AIDS stricken teens in the hospitals of New Orleans to offer what comfort or counsel that he could.  I cannot agree with and barely understand some of the choices he made and conclusions he came to, but neither can I deny that he was and in my heart remains, my dear and beloved friend, and because he is my friend, because I knew his hunger and his aspiration...his audacity to be ruthlessly true to himself...I have no judgements to make, only prayers for the peace and repose of his soul.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2010, 05:41:29 AM by Seraphim »



Obleo21

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Reply #97 on: July 21, 2010, 05:45:56 PM

We live in a more libertine and a more pluralistic time than ages past, and so less and less are such moral schemas given general credence. 


As an archaeologist and anthropologist, I can say quite definitively that pretty much the opposite of this is true.  I think the idea stems from the fact that we are comparing the modern era of tv and our society of very high literacy with those of the past.  It's difficult to compare sexual mores today with occasionally viewing statues and not being able to read.  For many, many, many cultures, including our own, sex was never a private activity (Single room houses, huts, yurts, tepes, whatever...)

On a tangential note, and starting off by saying that I find slasher flicks in general boring and well, boring, as an anthropologist, I would argue that graphic and gratuitous portrayals of sex, violence, etc. do have a social/psychological role ( as a psycho-linguist Eytanz can refute or elaborate... ;)).  There are peoples around the world living such events.  Arms chopped off, rapes, abuse, etc.  Titillation can be a "safe" way to confront the realities of life, especially if one is not actually experiencing it.  People can confront their feelings in the context of "what if it was real".  It's also why many cultures impose cultural constructs on things that in general suck (lovely scientific term) such as gladiator/soldier as a portrayal of manliness, martyrdom/sacrifice, etc. 



Obleo21

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Reply #98 on: July 22, 2010, 01:44:12 AM
One aspect of Seraphim's argument I will wholeheartedly agree with.  The use of sex in literature for the purpose to only titillate (I am not referring to any story in particular and I didn't dislike like Spar) ultimately renders it mundane.  Who wants sex to be mundane?  Unless its mundaneness is integral to the story of course, but that might be sort of dull.



Planish

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Reply #99 on: December 17, 2010, 11:42:30 PM
I'm in the mood to channel Oscar Wilde.

"It is absurd to divide people sex scenes into good and bad. People Sex scenes are either charming or tedious."
« Last Edit: December 17, 2010, 11:46:58 PM by Planish »

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