Escape Artists
The Lounge at the End of the Universe => Gallimaufry => Topic started by: Jonathan C. Gillespie on January 17, 2007, 11:12:53 PM
-
Oh yeah. I take the subway to work, the train on vacation, and my kids to the doctor's in a stroller. All of which are faster, safer, cheaper, and more enviromental. The car(yes I do have one) gets less than 4000 miles a year. Last point, I pay over six dollars a gallon and I don't care because I only fill up once every four to six weeks. The huge gas tax is used to buy open land and put it under protection from developement.
That's great for you, but what about those of us who live in cities that don't have adequate mass-transit? I live down here in Atlanta, and I can tell you, you'd be driving everywhere. I'd love to be able to emulate your driving habits, but it's just not possible.
-
This is truth, what JC said about Atlanta. Although a counterpoint may be that many of us who live here, CHOSE to live here. And the city has little incentive to change its transport problems if we're all going to keep living here anyway (and buying gas).
It's a complex issue. In my defense, at least I drive a Prius. >8->
-
In my defense, at least I drive a Prius. >8->
I love the Prius. The first time I saw one in person it was a
two meters behind me. I only knew it was there, because tire tires made a little crunching sound on some of the sand on the road.
Quick question. If the brakes on the Prius are electrical generators, why can you see brake rotors when you look through the wheel covers?
-
In my defense, at least I drive a Prius. >8->
I love the Prius. The first time I saw one in person it was a
two meters behind me. I only knew it was there, because tire tires made a little crunching sound on some of the sand on the road.
Quick question. If the brakes on the Prius are electrical generators, why can you see brake rotors when you look through the wheel covers?
Electrical generators won't stop the car. The Prius still needs traditional brakes for that.
-
In my defense, at least I drive a Prius. >8->
I love the Prius. The first time I saw one in person it was a
two meters behind me. I only knew it was there, because tire tires made a little crunching sound on some of the sand on the road.
Quick question. If the brakes on the Prius are electrical generators, why can you see brake rotors when you look through the wheel covers?
Electrical generators won't stop the car. The Prius still needs traditional brakes for that.
The generators supply the resistance to reduce the speed from highway speeds. When does it need the traditional brakes? Is this just for emergency braking or just the final couple MPH or to keep it from rolling when you're at a light?
-
Quick question. If the brakes on the Prius are electrical generators, why can you see brake rotors when you look through the wheel covers?
The regenerative braking is somewhat effective for slowing and stopping, but not completely effective. In typical driving, the generator (which is really just one of the hybrid motors running backwards) and the ordinary brakes work in tandem: press down the brake pedal a little bit, and you're regenerating; push it down harder and the brakes kick in on top of that.
One side effect of this is that brake wear on a hybrid car is usually very light. We had a Honda Insight before the Prius. When Anna got pregnant we sold it to some friends. That was at 90,000 miles. The tech doing our final inspection-and-maintenance said that the brake pads (which were the original ones) were still in excellent shape and that it would probably be tens of thousands of miles before they needed replacing.
-
One of the advantages of a hybrid powertrain is the electrical engine's torque is instantly available. There's no power curve like in a gasoline engine. GM tested hybrid-equipped trucks versus traditional trucks, and the hybrids were a few seconds quicker and better towers.
The problem is that, in contrast to smaller vehicles, the trucks burned through the brake systems much quicker. This has slowed GM's implementation somewhat.
Jeffrey -- I remember "The Wave!". Should be required watching in schools.
Strength through unity! Strength through action!
-
The problem is that, in contrast to smaller vehicles, the trucks burned through the brake systems much quicker. This has slowed GM's implementation somewhat.
That has got to be either bad design or some quirk of the usage pattern. Can you explain why that happened? Because I'm trying to think about it and have no idea what the problem would be.
Of course, given GM's first experiment with a "hybrid" truck, the Silverado that didn't even have a hybrid motor in the powertrain (it was only used for idle stopping and to put a few 120 volt outlets in the truck bed for power tools), I have to suspect that they aren't really putting much effort into it regardless.
The American automakers are going to suffer terribly in a few years as the bottom drops out of the SUV market, and while I feel for the workers who'll be hurt by it most, there's a part of me that also wants to say "We, America, brought this on ourselves by being assholes."
-
Stephen, as I understand it the problem was mass and weight of the trucks. Keep in mind, there's a lot more to stopping a Sierra than a Prius.
I have zero sympathy for the American Auto makers. They've always played reactionary as opposed to proactionary. You'd think they would have learned the perils of relying on low gas prices before -- they'd been through this with the shift to tiny imports during the fuel crisis of the 70's -- so it's not like the writing wasn't on the wall. They've also heavily unionized themselves which, despite folks' feeling on that issue, does limit a company's ability to compete. You cannot survive in the global economy with such a lackluster approach to business.
Hopefully this shake-down will produce leaner, stronger American nameplates.
-
That was at 90,000 miles. The tech doing our final inspection-and-maintenance said that the brake pads (which were the original ones) were still in excellent shape and that it would probably be tens of thousands of miles before they needed replacing.
[/quote]
I am getting way off topic here, sorry Pod Man. Did you ever figure a cost / mile ratio on your car? How much per mile or month year it cost to run it? Not including the cost of the car? Sorry to be so forward, I just haven't known any one who has driven one for so many miles, and I am very curious. Some friends of mine at work are talking about converting old cars into battery vehicles to drive back and forth to work.
-
Meh, I so want a hybrid car. They're so sweet, especially Lexus' new one.
I'm really digging that one, especially because it's as accessorible as it is. Have you seen those specs of what you are able to add without using amplifiers for the power, and stuff. Seriously, that's some sweet accessorizing you are able to do.
-
I am getting way off topic here, sorry Pod Man. Did you ever figure a cost / mile ratio on your car? How much per mile or month year it cost to run it? Not including the cost of the car?
No, I haven't run that math specifically, but I can tell you that we're averaging about 48 miles per gallon, and that the oil changes and scheduled maintenance (every 5,000 miles) cost the same as any other car's oil change. There haven't been any other service costs. So if you don't include the cost of the car, we should be staying ahead of the curve with the lower fuel consumption.
-
I am getting way off topic here, sorry Pod Man. Did you ever figure a cost / mile ratio on your car? How much per mile or month year it cost to run it? Not including the cost of the car?
No, I haven't run that math specifically, but I can tell you that we're averaging about 48 miles per gallon, and that the oil changes and scheduled maintenance (every 5,000 miles) cost the same as any other car's oil change. There haven't been any other service costs. So if you don't include the cost of the car, we should be staying ahead of the curve with the lower fuel consumption.
There's also the savings on the brakes.
-
Veering off of the subject (only slightly though). There are other alternatives. Not only hybrids are better for the environment. In my country (Colombia) the most common eco-friendly option is to convert your car to run on compressed natural gas.
I own a 1994 Nissan Pathfinder and I've converted it to run on CNG, not only are the fuel savings insane (I'm now paying a third of what I used to in fuel. and, if I veer off far from somewhere where I can't get gas, my car can still run perfectly on traditional gasoline.
Environmentally, my car now has very very low emmisions. Just by having the CNG conversion I am exempt from having a yearly emmisions check. On th other hand, I do have to get a yearly check-up to check the tank, fuel lines and such, and get re-certified to run on CNG for another year. If I fail to get the yearly check-up, the gas stations won't dispense gas.
Hybrids are nice and all, but hideously expensive, import tariffs on vehicles here is horrible, and we don't get nice tax deductions or other bonuses for buying one.
And, what about biodiesel? I've heard/read somewhere that the most fuel efficient car in the US market isn't the Prius, rather a VW Jetta Diesel.
-
The Prius and other hybrids are just the start. They're to show that there are options. If you try to sell a CNG car in the states, everyone says that you can't fill it up anywhere. If you talk about an electric car, people say it takes to long to charge and what happens if you're further away from home.
The hybrids really show us two things. The first is that a car can have two propulsion (for lack of a better word) sources. The second is that you can reclaim energy by stopping the car using generators.
A Hybrid could be bio-diesel, CNG, hydrogen, it doesn't matter. In 20 years you won't be able to buy a vehicle that doesn't have regenerative braking.
The system that would be the best will be the hardest to get on the market. Anybody can make hydrogen. I could set up a hydrogen station in less a week after the delivery of the systems. A windmill, a "water splitter", a storage tank, and a pumping system. This is what really scares big oil and why they use their political power against it.
There are already systems for houses (still in development and extremely expensive right now) where the house is run on a windmill or solar panels. The extra electricity isn't wasted or sent back to the grid, but is instead used to make hydrogen. The hydrogen is then used to make electricty when the windmill doesn't provide enough electricity for the house and fuels the hydrogen car which has regenerative braking.
On top of all of that it's carbon free.
-
This is truth, what JC said about Atlanta.
At least it's not Houston, which has decided to build an 18-lane highway rather than put in a light commuter rail system like most other cities.
I'm in a weird place in this conversation, because I've never driven. I've lived in two cities whose public transportation was good enough that I didn't have to (DC, NYC). So I've grown up using the Metro in DC and that bus system, and upon moving to NYC I just had to get used to getting a 30-day Metrocard and re-learning that it's called the Subway, even though the cards are still Metrocards.
-
I live in the suburbs of Louisville, KY. Louisville has a pretty good system of buses, or so I've been told, but there is simply no way to get from my home to where I work by bus. I like my job and I'm not moving, so driving is my only option. I drive a nice 10 year old car that is long paid for but only gets about 22 mpg. I have been thinking about getting a new car that gets much better mileage, but in doing the math I found out that, at $3/gallon and with a Pruis, it would take about 8 years to recoup the cost just in gas. I have two close friends that have them and they both absolutely love them.
I read recently that GM is developing a gas assisted plug in hybrid that has a battery only range that would get me back and forth to work without ever having to burn gas at all. IIRC, you can recharge it in about 4 hours. If the charge runs low while you are driving it, it starts the motor to recharge the battery. That gives it an effective range of about 600 miles.
-
I live in the suburbs of Louisville, KY. Louisville has a pretty good system of buses, or so I've been told, but there is simply no way to get from my home to where I work by bus. I like my job and I'm not moving, so driving is my only option. I drive a nice 10 year old car that is long paid for but only gets about 22 mpg. I have been thinking about getting a new car that gets much better mileage, but in doing the math I found out that, at $3/gallon and with a Pruis, it would take about 8 years to recoup the cost just in gas. I have two close friends that have them and they both absolutely love them.
I read recently that GM is developing a gas assisted plug in hybrid that has a battery only range that would get me back and forth to work without ever having to burn gas at all. IIRC, you can recharge it in about 4 hours. If the charge runs low while you are driving it, it starts the motor to recharge the battery. That gives it an effective range of about 600 miles.
As long as the gas prices peak every so often, the innovation will continue and we'll be totally amazed at what becomes possible.
Heard a quote from the Presiident of Honda USA. He said that Honda could have easily increased their average fuel economy 1.5% a year for the last 20 years, but the customers in the US didn't want it. So there is a lot that can be done in the short term.
(Ex. from Honda was based on 28 mpg in 1986. At 1.5%/yr for 20 years that's 38 mpg coporate average)
-
I live in the suburbs of Louisville, KY. Louisville has a pretty good system of buses, or so I've been told, but there is simply no way to get from my home to where I work by bus. I like my job and I'm not moving, so driving is my only option. I drive a nice 10 year old car that is long paid for but only gets about 22 mpg. I have been thinking about getting a new car that gets much better mileage, but in doing the math I found out that, at $3/gallon and with a Pruis, it would take about 8 years to recoup the cost just in gas. I have two close friends that have them and they both absolutely love them.
Yeah, you know, that's something that always bugs me when people do reviews of hybrid cars. "It costs three thousand more than that other car you might buy, and it'll take you X years to make up the difference in gas. So you'd have to be a math-challenged idiot to buy a hybrid." (They usually forget about the tax deduction, but that's a side point.)
People never do this analysis with the features of other cars. "The Porsche 911 costs $40,000 more than the Honda Accord; it'll take 22 years to make up that difference cruising for chicks." "The Hummer H2 costs $15,000 more than the Chevy Tahoe; it'll take 3 months to have enough middle fingers extended in your direction to make up the difference."
People buy hybrid cars first and foremost because they're good cars. I consider my Prius the perfect midsize car: it's very roomy on the inside, it has a hatchback so it'll hold a surprising amount of stuff, but it fits into any parking space I need it to. It has very cool tech features that appeal to my geek side: the keyless entry and ignition (the RFID chip on the key means I just need to have it in my pocket, and the doors unlock when I touch them and the car starts up when I hit the power button), the GPS system, the Bluetooth speakerphone, the set-the-temperature-and-forget-it climate control, the autodimming rear-view mirror. These are all available in more expensive cars, but the Prius was the first car to have them for $25K. Maneuverability is excellent, acceleration is good with great pickup from a stop, and the drive is quiet and comfortable.
And just focusing on the gas mileage is ignoring the environmental effect. The Prius is a SULEV (super ultra-low emission) certified vehicle. It's not the only one on the market right now, but it was one of the first and it's still one of the cleanest. I also love the fact that at a stop, and at low speeds, the engine is completely off, so gas consumption and pollution are zero. I'm not reaping immediate financial benefits for having a clean car, but it makes me feel better about driving.
And yes, all that and I save gas too. I'm fairly certain that within the lifetime of my car, we'll be saying "Remember when gas was only $3 a gallon?" So your calculations are...somewhat optimistic, perhaps. (And to a certain extent I'm okay with that. I'm actually of the opinion that gas in the United States has been too cheap for our own good. This is not an opinion that makes me many friends.)
Anyway. That's my own response to the number-crunching. Anna and I bought a Prius because we needed a new car right then -- to replace a hybrid Honda Insight, when Anna got pregnant -- and our research took us to the conclusion that the Prius was the best car for our needs, wants, and budget. The gas savings were only a part of the equation. The whole picture was what drove us to the Prius.
BTW, I'm not an absolute hybrid zealot. A few months after that, when my old Saturn died, we didn't have the budget for a hybrid, so we bought a Mazda 3. Still a great little car, with good mileage, and much cheaper than the Prius. We also don't drive it nearly as much.
You have to do your own math. And I would also say that if you have a good car that's already paid for, even if it's low mileage, it's a very valid decision to keep it. Gas isn't the only cost with a new car, and there's also an environmental cost in manufacturing a car (hybrid or not) that you can never really recover, only mitigate by driving it as long as possible.
-
I live in the suburbs of Louisville, KY. Louisville has a pretty good system of buses, or so I've been told, but there is simply no way to get from my home to where I work by bus. I like my job and I'm not moving, so driving is my only option. I drive a nice 10 year old car that is long paid for but only gets about 22 mpg. I have been thinking about getting a new car that gets much better mileage, but in doing the math I found out that, at $3/gallon and with a Pruis, it would take about 8 years to recoup the cost just in gas. I have two close friends that have them and they both absolutely love them.
Yeah, you know, that's something that always bugs me when people do reviews of hybrid cars. "It costs three thousand more than that other car you might buy, and it'll take you X years to make up the difference in gas. So you'd have to be a math-challenged idiot to buy a hybrid." (They usually forget about the tax deduction, but that's a side point.)
(lot's of stuff clipped out)
You have to do your own math. And I would also say that if you have a good car that's already paid for, even if it's low mileage, it's a very valid decision to keep it. Gas isn't the only cost with a new car, and there's also an environmental cost in manufacturing a car (hybrid or not) that you can never really recover, only mitigate by driving it as long as possible.
For me the question was "at $3/gal, should I get rid of my current car that runs perfectly and get a new one instead that gets way better mileage?" The most economical choice to get a Prius, but with an 8 year payback, the answer was still "no." Now, if my car dies on the way home from work? That's a different question entirely. I've already decided that I am going to buy either a Prius or a Honda Fit. Right now, I'm leaning towards the Prius. I rode in one a friend of mine had and I was surprised at just how nice a car it was (I don't hear that aspect being played up very much). As far as the price of gas goes, when the price of gas went to $3, I told everyone that by the end of the year, it would be $4. So naturally, it went to $2. :P (We actually had regular unleaded at $1.88 a couple of weeks ago).
I think $5/gal gas would be a good dose of "tough love" that this country really needs.
-
For me the question was "at $3/gal, should I get rid of my current car that runs perfectly and get a new one instead that gets way better mileage?" The most economical choice to get a Prius, but with an 8 year payback, the answer was still "no." Now, if my car dies on the way home from work? That's a different question entirely.
That makes total sense. I know people who are still driving 25-year-old Civics and having no problems. If you can still use the car you have, and it's not eating you up in maintenance costs (that's why I got rid of my Saturn), buying a new one is often more vanity than practicality, regardless of gas costs.
Besides, this way, when you do get around to really needing a new car, it's just going to have cooler features and be even more efficient. >8->
I've already decided that I am going to buy either a Prius or a Honda Fit. Right now, I'm leaning towards the Prius. I rode in one a friend of mine had and I was surprised at just how nice a car it was (I don't hear that aspect being played up very much).
Yeah. That's why I play it up. >8->
I'm happy that Toyota's finally selling the hybrid Camry, but between the two I'd still pick the Prius again if I had to buy another car. I've driven Camrys before and they're very comfortable, very smooth, and very nondescript. The Prius is cool. You can't look at it inside or out and not know that this car is something different. That doesn't appeal to everyone, but it appeals to me.
-
I'm actually of the opinion that gas in the United States has been too cheap for our own good. This is not an opinion that makes me many friends.)
That same opinion has made me some enemies. I pay $6/gal and I'm fine with it.
-
When there's a plug-in hybrid 4-door hatchback with long-term ownership costs less than comparable non-hybrids, and my current vehicle needs replacing, I'll be the first in line.
By the way, mass transit alternatives also suck here in Hampton Roads. I live 6 miles from work. The 30-40 minute drive would take two hours and two transfers by bus. The ferry doesn't run early or often enough to get me to work on time, and although Norfolk finally got a light rail grant, the planned route stops at the city line and doesn't cross the river.
I bike occasionally, but it's ten miles to go around the tunnel, usually in darkness both ways through shady neighborhoods on some dangerous roads. And while there are showers at work they are in a building a quarter mile from my office, and there are no lockers available.
-
When there's a plug-in hybrid 4-door hatchback with long-term ownership costs less than comparable non-hybrids, and my current vehicle needs replacing, I'll be the first in line.
I don't think the long-term ownership costs for my Prius are higher than those of a comparable midsize. The initial cost was a couple thousand higher, but that was largely offset by the tax credit, and I see some of it as simply paying for all the cool gadgets in the car. >8->
Oil changes, etc., cost the same as any other Toyota and are on the same 5,000 mile schedule. There are no extraordinary maintenance costs. In fact it may be marginally cheaper because the breaks don't wear out as fast.
(A couple years back there was a lot of auto journalism FUD about "You'll have to pay thousands to replace the battery when it wears out!" -- but that hasn't been holding up in practice for Prius owners, first gen or second gen. It was true for the Honda Insight I used to own, which started getting really flaky around 90,000 miles, but Honda replaced the battery at their own cost so it didn't actually cost me anything.)
-
Yeah, I was surprised to learn last year that Intellichoice (http://www.intellichoice.com/top10/Top_List/year/2006/list/Lowest%20Ownership) picked Prius as having the lowest ownership cost in its class. Granted, part of that is because of their unusually low depreciation, which may return to a more reasonable level as they become a bit more commonplace, or if something more efficient and/or tendy comes along. But Prius is the only hybrid to top it's class, and no one makes a hybrid hatchback or wagon yet. There's a chance that plug-ins will catch on, but since it looks like GM is going to be the company to pioneer (http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061204/FREE/61204002/1064) that field, I'm not holding my breath.
-
But Prius is the only hybrid to top it's class, and no one makes a hybrid hatchback or wagon yet.
ObNit: The Prius is a hatchback. >8->
(http://john1701a.com/prius/owners/stephanie_prius-hatchback_mini.jpg)
(Source: http://john1701a.com/prius/owners/stephanie.htm (http://john1701a.com/prius/owners/stephanie.htm))
-
My big surprise with the Prius was the size.
The arguement was always, "You don't save thet much over a civic."
The Prius is so much bigger than the civic. If it had a good-sized station wagon, I'd be able to use it for my family of four with the 40 pound dog.
-
Yes, I know it has a hatch in the back and it's roomy for a sedan it's size, but 15 cubic feet won't cut it. My PT Cruiser has 40% more, and more still with seats folded or removed. That frequently comes in handy for carrying a load of building supplies or a bicycle without disassembly. Also, I have a 18'9" hand-made wooden sea kayak that I'm not willing to put on anything but a flat roof with wide crossbar spacing. If I was in the market today, I'd probably get a Pontiac Vibe. If they introduced a hybrid Matrix/Vibe, I'd be interested even if they had to sacrifice some cargo volume for batteries.
But I do also think that plug-ins are a key next step, and one that Toyota spoiled the market for with their "you never have to plug it in" campaign.
-
Anyone read The Consumerist article on crazy low-mileage drivers? I'd call these guys (http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2007/01/king_of_the_hypermilers.html)hybrid hackers.
-
Anyone read The Consumerist article on crazy low-mileage drivers? I'd call these guys (http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2007/01/king_of_the_hypermilers.html)hybrid hackers.
I did read that a while back. That guy is insane.
-
I've had my Prius over a year now and I try hard to be a careful driver, but the best MPG I've ever gotten over the course of a whole tank of gas is 49 MPG. But, I hit and ran over, a deer when the car was only a month old. (Yes, the Prius can also be used as the world's first hybrid synergy jerky maker, and boy howdy, don't that smell grand.) One of the casualties was the gas tank which was crushed completely and I'm not sure the fuel usage gages are all working 100% yet despite several repair rounds. It's an ongoing discussion I'm having with Toyota.
By the way the out side temp has a huge different in the MPG. In Feb when we had scads of snow and singal digit temps for weeks the MPG was down in the low 30's
-
There is one thing I don't get about the argument over hybrid cars:
Why are people arguing so vehemently AGAINST them?
I see lots of people get very upset when I talk about wanting to get one, and they become downright angry as they present all of their arguments.
"The mileage isn't as good as they promise!" No, but it is good.
"I NEED an SUV/minivan/other big truck for [insert reason]." Fine, I'm not asking to ban those. I just don't need one.
"They'll cost you more than you think." That's fine; I'm willing to pay more for zero-emissions.
"I HATE THAT LYING AL GORE!!!"
I don't know where these people got the idea that "caring about the environment" is tied to politics, but the people I run into with these strong anti-hybrid feelings tend to react to the statement, "Gee, I'd like to help cut down on pollution" as if they heard the statement, "We want you to become gay, communist, atheists and vote Democrat."
Not that politics is unrelated to this, but I just can't see why anyone would be against the growth of this segment of the economy. (I'm not fishing to hear conspiracy theories about oil companies and auto-makers using the government to control the minds of the populace through FOX News -- I've already heard that story! I'm just trying to figure out why common, everyday people who are otherwise "just like me" would have a problem with me buying a Prius.)
-
I've had my Prius over a year now and I try hard to be a careful driver, but the best MPG I've ever gotten over the course of a whole tank of gas is 49 MPG. But, I hit and ran over, a deer when the car was only a month old. (Yes, the Prius can also be used as the world's first hybrid synergy jerky maker, and boy howdy, don't that smell grand.) One of the casualties was the gas tank which was crushed completely and I'm not sure the fuel usage gages are all working 100% yet despite several repair rounds. It's an ongoing discussion I'm having with Toyota.
For what it's worth, 49 MPG is pretty good. That's pretty close to the best I've had too. Nobody ever really gets the EPA mileage, especially with hybrids. The EPA's testing procedures don't accurately reflect normal long-term driving patterns.
By the way the out side temp has a huge different in the MPG. In Feb when we had scads of snow and singal digit temps for weeks the MPG was down in the low 30's
Yep. Lots of reasons for that, not least of which is that the air is denser (which increases drag, and lowers your tire pressure.) Winter fuel formulations also aren't as efficient.
-
I'm a republican, and I really don't want to turn this into a political thread, but I have to say I witness the same thing. Whenever I tell my friends I'm considering getting a hybrid, they (most of them republican) cringe as though I've told them I've bought them a copy of "An Inconvenient Truth." It's sad that the idea that being a conservative is incompatible with saving the environment is seen as truth.
Owners, tell us more about the nerd factor on the Prius! What's this I hear about laser guns and neural gelpacks and AI and bioelectric fields? Can I really get 3,000 MPG on a tank of garbage? DOES IT TIME TRAVEL?!
[/crazy]
-
DOES IT TIME TRAVEL?!
Yes. Forward. >8->
-
neat! :o
-
I'm a republican, and I really don't want to turn this into a political thread, but I have to say I witness the same thing. Whenever I tell my friends I'm considering getting a hybrid, they (most of them republican) cringe as though I've told them I've bought them a copy of "An Inconvenient Truth." It's sad that the idea that being a conservative is incompatible with saving the environment is seen as truth.
Yeah, that's what I see, in general. It makes me sad that every issue seems to come pre-packaged and pre-stamped with the Seal of Approval/Disapproval from a party platform.
I drive a Kia (Note: it is not supposed to resemble "K.I.A.", but...), and we haul the brood around in a minivan. I would LOVE to bike to work, but it's 30 miles, and through a tunnel. (Or down Route 1 through downtown Baltimore -- YOU look up the crime stats!) So for me, moving to something zero-emission makes sense. I would feel like I'm balancing things out a little bit. Then when I see one skinny chick on a cell phone in her H3, I can at least concentrate on hating her for not waiting to get home before discussing the ins & outs of American Idol instead of wasting energy worrying about her mileage! :)
-
Then when I see one skinny chick on a cell phone in her H3, I can at least concentrate on hating her for not waiting to get home before discussing the ins & outs of American Idol instead of wasting energy worrying about her mileage! :)
Heh. The H3s aren't so bad in my opinion. It's the H2s I can't stand. I have the typical irresistable reflex (http://www.fuh2.com) every time I see one.
-
My across the street neighbor has a Hummer. When I park next to it I feel all righteous in a beauty and the beast way.
-
I'm moving to Philadelphia in two weeks, and I'm buying a bike to get me around. Frankly, there is nothing like the thrill of riding a bicycle in traffic. It definitely makes you feel eco-friendly (and like a sitting duck).
-
Ok, so it's been over a year (but only one page) since I posted in this thread. Since that time, gas has gone from $3/gal to $4/gal and my now 11 year old car's mileage went down a bit and needed a few more minor repairs. I decided it was time to ditch it and move on. About a month ago, I bought a Honda Fit. I'm averaging about 33mpg (combination of city and highway). My driving is mostly suburban - a set of stop lights every 2 - 3 miles.
I looked at a few cars and narrowed down my choice to either the Fit or the Prius. I actually liked the Prius better. It was larger and got better mileage but, I couldn't justify the extra $8000 in price, and more importantly, my wife hated driving it. She said she could have gotten used to the dashboard and not shifting but the one thing she couldn't get past was the back windshield. She hated having the split across the back.
The paypack on my Fit was about a year sooner than the Prius. I think my current calculation for payback on the Fit is about 6 years. However, since we bought it, we drive it MUCH more often that her car, so the payback should be even sooner than I calculated.
-
(http://a.sc.msn.com/2U/B_QKO+OA--35D~DQ!Z!2SD.gif)
-
So, I lived in London until I was 30, and then I moved to Cincinnati.
I never even bothered taking driving lessons until I knew I was going to move; public transport (or shank's pony) was always great to get me where I was going. When I bought a car over here, I looked at hybrids, but the Nissan dealer didn't have a Prius in stock, no any idea when they would, so I couldn't test drive one, and most other hybrids didn't seem to get any better mileage than the manual transmission versions.
So I ended up getting a Honda Accord, which gets me a little over 29mpg, which isn't so bad. For my next car (which probably won't be for a few years, yet) I'll definitely be looking at hybrids again. By then, the technology should be significantly more mature.
-
By the way the out side temp has a huge different in the MPG. In Feb when we had scads of snow and singal digit temps for weeks the MPG was down in the low 30's
Yep. Lots of reasons for that, not least of which is that the air is denser (which increases drag, and lowers your tire pressure.) Winter fuel formulations also aren't as efficient.
Furthermore, batteries don't work very well when they're cold, so I'd bet the IC engine has to work overtime to compensate.
-
Furthermore, batteries don't work very well when they're cold, so I'd bet the IC engine has to work overtime to compensate.
This is true. My prius gets about 35 MPG in the winter, and upwards of 50 in the summer. My milage isn't helped by most my commute being up a hill, or by the fact that I'm a pretty aggressive driver. But those factors pale in comparison to the weather...
-
Furthermore, batteries don't work very well when they're cold, so I'd bet the IC engine has to work overtime to compensate.
This is true. My prius gets about 35 MPG in the winter, and upwards of 50 in the summer. My milage isn't helped by most my commute being up a hill, or by the fact that I'm a pretty aggressive driver. But those factors pale in comparison to the weather...
As with all things, some take this a bit more seriously (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/25/AR2008052502764.html).
-
... but the Nissan dealer didn't have a Prius in stock, no any idea when they would, so I couldn't test drive one...
<windup>Perhaps you should have checked at a Toyota dealer?</windup>
;D
-
... but the Nissan dealer didn't have a Prius in stock, no any idea when they would, so I couldn't test drive one...
<windup>Perhaps you should have checked at a Toyota dealer?</windup>
;D
LOL! :D Can't believe I missed that one, or I'd have suggested the same thing. ;D
-
Yeah, yeah.
-
Yeah, yeah.
I'm in for it now... I better make sure I profread my psots a few dozen times from now on.... ::)
But you reminded me of the report I read about Nissan's electric car efforts; the Mixim (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/08/29/nissan-to-unveil-an-electric-prototype-in-frankfurt/) is supposed to come out in 2010, and they unveiled the Pivo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ChHlWSKTkM) recently. (Should I be worried that "Pivo" (Пиво) is the Russian word for "beer"?)
-
Yeah, yeah.
I'm in for it now... I better make sure I profread my psots a few dozen times from now on.... ::)
But you reminded me of the report I read about Nissan's electric car efforts; the Mixim (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/08/29/nissan-to-unveil-an-electric-prototype-in-frankfurt/) is supposed to come out in 2010, and they unveiled the Pivo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ChHlWSKTkM) recently. (Should I be worried that "Pivo" (Пиво) is the Russian word for "beer"?)
Alternative fuel, perhaps? :P
-
Yeah, yeah.
I'm in for it now... I better make sure I profread my psots a few dozen times from now on.... ::)
But you reminded me of the report I read about Nissan's electric car efforts; the Mixim (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/08/29/nissan-to-unveil-an-electric-prototype-in-frankfurt/) is supposed to come out in 2010, and they unveiled the Pivo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ChHlWSKTkM) recently. (Should I be worried that "Pivo" (Пиво) is the Russian word for "beer"?)
Alternative fuel, perhaps? :P
Finally, a use for all the crap U.S. beers clogging the market! How much for a gallon of Bud?
-
I just watched the season premiere of Morgan Spurlock's 30 Days and it was about West Virginia coal miners (Morgan Spurlock created the documentary SuperSize Me). It was an extremely interesting show. It said coal provided 50% of the world's power. I was astounded at that... I had no idea it was that much. Anyway, if you get a chance to watch it, I think most of you would probably find it interesting.
-
I just watched the season premiere of Morgan Spurlock's 30 Days and it was about West Virginia coal miners (Morgan Spurlock created the documentary SuperSize Me). It was an extremely interesting show. It said coal provided 50% of the world's power. I was astounded at that... I had no idea it was that much. Anyway, if you get a chance to watch it, I think most of you would probably find it interesting.
It's not hard to believe when you realise how easy it is to get power from coal. It's the obvious choice for poor countries that can't afford to care about the mess. The unbelievable part is that it provides approximately 55% of the US's electricty.
-
I just watched the season premiere of Morgan Spurlock's 30 Days and it was about West Virginia coal miners (Morgan Spurlock created the documentary SuperSize Me). It was an extremely interesting show. It said coal provided 50% of the world's power. I was astounded at that... I had no idea it was that much. Anyway, if you get a chance to watch it, I think most of you would probably find it interesting.
Did it say how many years of coal this planet has left based on current usage? What percent was nuclear? I think the US is way behind Europe as far as nuclear power production goes. That sounds interesting, definitely going to check it out.
-
I just watched the season premiere of Morgan Spurlock's 30 Days and it was about West Virginia coal miners (Morgan Spurlock created the documentary SuperSize Me). It was an extremely interesting show. It said coal provided 50% of the world's power. I was astounded at that... I had no idea it was that much. Anyway, if you get a chance to watch it, I think most of you would probably find it interesting.
Did it say how many years of coal this planet has left based on current usage? What percent was nuclear? I think the US is way behind Europe as far as nuclear power production goes. That sounds interesting, definitely going to check it out.
It did, I think, but I don't remember what it said... I remember being surprised... I wanna say it's like 150 years.... maybe less... I'm confusing it with some figures I saw in wikipedia.
-
There was an item on Top Gear many, many years ago addressing the problem of fuel economy in American cars versus fuel economy in the rest of the world's cars. The conclusion was essentially that Americans didn't want to "drive like Europeans" by having "small" cars.
Even though it's been proven time and again that those wacky Europeans with their "small" cars outperform the larger-engined American contemporaries every time. Essentially American cars are just throwing petrol away by using it so inefficiently, and because the government's been over-subsidising the American gas-buyer for decades there's been absolutely no impetus to make cars that do anything other than piss fuel into the wind.
GM showcased a deuterium-powered car approximately ten years ago. It's vanished. Then there was a lot of talk about hydrogen fuel-cells. Which have vanished. Everyone's scrambling to make a car which, ultimately, still sells petrol to us, because while there are far cleaner, far cheaper alternatives out there, OPEC doesn't want us to stop giving them huge wads of cash, and they've a long history of making dodgy deals with motor manufacturers to keep the cash coming in.
We can sit on our backsides waiting for this fabulous new technology, but the fact is that it already exists. We're just not demanding it loudly enough, no matter what continent we're from.
-
There was an item on Top Gear many, many years ago addressing the problem of fuel economy in American cars versus fuel economy in the rest of the world's cars. The conclusion was essentially that Americans didn't want to "drive like Europeans" by having "small" cars.
For the short time that I was listening to the podcast of "The Lone Conservative" he would go on about how the small cars that "Liberals" insist we drive are much more likely to get you killed if you get into a collision with some dickhead in a Hummer. So apparently we should drive big wasteful cars because it's safer.
-
There was an item on Top Gear many, many years ago addressing the problem of fuel economy in American cars versus fuel economy in the rest of the world's cars. The conclusion was essentially that Americans didn't want to "drive like Europeans" by having "small" cars.
For the short time that I was listening to the podcast of "The Lone Conservative" he would go on about how the small cars that "Liberals" insist we drive are much more likely to get you killed if you get into a collision with some dickhead in a Hummer. So apparently we should drive big wasteful cars because it's safer.
In my best Michael Palin impersonation: "What a stupid concept."
-
For the short time that I was listening to the podcast of "The Lone Conservative" he would go on about how the small cars that "Liberals" insist we drive are much more likely to get you killed if you get into a collision with some dickhead in a Hummer. So apparently we should drive big wasteful cars because it's safer.
I think it's an interesting fact that in the developed world 669,000 people die every year in car accidents (10th highest cause of death). Imagine if someone came out with a new technology today that would instantly transport people to their destination, but every year 669,000 people would never show up to their destination. It would be considered unsafe and nobody would use it.
Also, think about the workplace requirements about cages around moving equipment, high loads, safety disconnects, etc. Then think about walknig down a street just a few feet from 2 ton hunks of steel traveleing 70+ miles per hour. The risks we take with driving and being around cars are extreme. Getting behind the wheel of a car is the most dangerous thing most of us do every day.
I'm not trying to make any points with this, just putting into perspective how dangerous driving really is, regardless of the size of a vehicle. Is it more dangerous to drive a smaller, efficient car? Probably. Is it worth it? I guess that's for the market to decide.
Personally it is something on my mind when purchasing a car. I drive a Pontiac Vibe (which is small by American standards), but I purchased the all wheel drive and side airbags. I have actually looked at the feasibility of installing a 4 point harness, but there is no connection point for the fourth point and a harness isn't that much safer than a 3 point belt. Really, helmets would save a lot of lives, but those look silly.
-
I think it's an interesting fact that in the developed world 669,000 people die every year in car accidents (10th highest cause of death). Imagine if someone came out with a new technology today that would instantly transport people to their destination, but every year 669,000 people would never show up to their destination. It would be considered unsafe and nobody would use it.
I don't really know if this is valid or not, but the first thing that popped into my mind when you submitted this analogy is that the safety of the car-drivers rests in large part on something the driver can control (sobriety, speed limits, watching the road, etc.) whereas a transporter is left to technology beyond our control... so subtract the killed-by-drunk/reckless/etc-driving from that 669,000, and then find out what the number is. It might be accepted as safe as air travel, then.
I had a friend who used to jokingly marvel that we would climb into glass and steel boxes and propel ourselves around at speeds in excess of 60 mph on rock-hard surfaces... it really does sorta boggle the mind. :)
-
Also, think about the workplace requirements about cages around moving equipment, high loads, safety disconnects, etc. Then think about walknig down a street just a few feet from 2 ton hunks of steel traveleing 70+ miles per hour.
I know of no place in the world where cars are driven upwards of seventy miles per hour around pedestrian traffic. I think the highest posted speed limit I've seen outside of a no-pedestrians highway is 40mph.
-
I know of no place in the world where cars are supposed to be driven upwards of seventy miles per hour around pedestrian traffic.
Fixed that for you.
-
Also, think about the workplace requirements about cages around moving equipment, high loads, safety disconnects, etc. Then think about walknig down a street just a few feet from 2 ton hunks of steel traveleing 70+ miles per hour.
I know of no place in the world where cars are driven upwards of seventy miles per hour around pedestrian traffic. I think the highest posted speed limit I've seen outside of a no-pedestrians highway is 40mph.
There are a couple of roads in my hometown where there are regularly pedestrians and the posted speed limit is 55mph. It's not uncommon to see people going 70mph on these roads. If someone experiences a breakdown on a freeway and has to walk to a phone (been there before the cell phone days) the posted speed limit is 70mph, so people regularly go 80mph. It's not as common to see pedestrians on a freeway as in a 55mph zone, but it does happen.
One comment worth making is since gas prices have increased I have noticed people driving slower on the freeway. I reduced my cruising speed from 75-80 to 65-70 in an attempt to reduce my gas consumption. Two years ago I would have been driven off the freeway for going 65 in a 70 zone, but now there are other people right along with me. I have noticed a significant difference in gas mileage (~10%).
-
Also, think about the workplace requirements about cages around moving equipment, high loads, safety disconnects, etc. Then think about walknig down a street just a few feet from 2 ton hunks of steel traveleing 70+ miles per hour.
I know of no place in the world where cars are driven upwards of seventy miles per hour around pedestrian traffic. I think the highest posted speed limit I've seen outside of a no-pedestrians highway is 40mph.
There are a couple of roads in my hometown where there are regularly pedestrians and the posted speed limit is 55mph. It's not uncommon to see people going 70mph on these roads. If someone experiences a breakdown on a freeway and has to walk to a phone (been there before the cell phone days) the posted speed limit is 70mph, so people regularly go 80mph. It's not as common to see pedestrians on a freeway as in a 55mph zone, but it does happen.
One comment worth making is since gas prices have increased I have noticed people driving slower on the freeway. I reduced my cruising speed from 75-80 to 65-70 in an attempt to reduce my gas consumption. Two years ago I would have been driven off the freeway for going 65 in a 70 zone, but now there are other people right along with me. I have noticed a significant difference in gas mileage (~10%).
I think the optimum speed for gas economy for most cars/trucks is somewhere in the 40-50 mph range, but I'm half-remembering a Car Talk episode so I could be wrong.
-
I think the optimum speed for gas economy for most cars/trucks is somewhere in the 40-50 mph range, but I'm half-remembering a Car Talk episode so I could be wrong.
I can't cite my source, but i remember hearing that gas mileage takes a nosedive after 60 mph (i wished i could remember the numbers; whatever the percentage was, it was significant).
-
I think the optimum speed for gas economy for most cars/trucks is somewhere in the 40-50 mph range, but I'm half-remembering a Car Talk episode so I could be wrong.
I can't cite my source, but i remember hearing that gas mileage takes a nosedive after 60 mph (i wished i could remember the numbers; whatever the percentage was, it was significant).
NPR did a story within the last two weeks (too tired to go find it now) that had a guy from Consumer Reports talking about how to save gas. They came up with 50-60 being the best range. It depends on the car. The squarer (funny looking word) the car the lower the optimum speed.
Massive savings also come from making sure the car is well tuned, inflating the tires to the proper pressure, and not accelerating hard.
-
Massive savings also come from making sure the car is well tuned, inflating the tires to the proper pressure, and not accelerating hard.
I like to inflate my tires to about 60-70PSI, so that the cornering isn't too mushy.
-
Massive savings also come from making sure the car is well tuned, inflating the tires to the proper pressure, and not accelerating hard.
I like to inflate my tires to about 60-70PSI, so that the cornering isn't too mushy.
But it feels like your riding through a gravel pit on roller skates. (my obscure reference of the week)
-
Massive savings also come from making sure the car is well tuned, inflating the tires to the proper pressure, and not accelerating hard.
I like to inflate my tires to about 60-70PSI, so that the cornering isn't too mushy.
But it feels like your riding through a gravel pit on roller skates. (my obscure reference of the week)
I'm not sure I recognize it ... I don't think it's from the same place I got the idea of improving cornering by inflating the tires to dangerously insane pressures, but I do know that when you do that the rubber feels like teak wood when you tap it with a metal rod, and when you drive you can feel every pebble in the road. (I don't drive a white Cadillac convertible BTW.)
-
Surely you should inflate your tyres to the PSI reccommended in the manual that came with the car?
At least, that's how we do it over here. But our cars have suspension... ;D
-
Massive savings also come from making sure the car is well tuned, inflating the tires to the proper pressure, and not accelerating hard.
I like to inflate my tires to about 60-70PSI, so that the cornering isn't too mushy.
But it feels like your riding through a gravel pit on roller skates. (my obscure reference of the week)
I'm not sure I recognize it ... I don't think it's from the same place I got the idea of improving cornering by inflating the tires to dangerously insane pressures, but I do know that when you do that the rubber feels like teak wood when you tap it with a metal rod, and when you drive you can feel every pebble in the road. (I don't drive a white Cadillac convertible BTW.)
But does it corner like a Lotus Elan. (same place)
-
But does it corner like a Lotus Elan. (same place)
So we're both talking about FaLiLV? I haven't read it in over twenty years.
-
I think the optimum speed for gas economy for most cars/trucks is somewhere in the 40-50 mph range, but I'm half-remembering a Car Talk episode so I could be wrong.
I can't cite my source, but i remember hearing that gas mileage takes a nosedive after 60 mph (i wished i could remember the numbers; whatever the percentage was, it was significant).
Car talk is awesome...I have their calendar on my desk right now.
The most efficient cruising speed depends on the car for certain. I did some calculations on this a while ago. If anyone is interested in a mathcad file with drag calculations let me know. The relationship between drag and velocity is a second level quadratic (squared) relationship, so there is 4X as much drag at 60 as there is at 30. There are also constant drag forces from rolling resistance (something over-inflating the tires will reduce). You should NEVER exceed the PSI rating on the sidewall of the tire or you risk having a blowout due to increased temperature (and therefore pressure) at highway speeds.
-
You should NEVER exceed the PSI rating on the sidewall of the tire or you risk having a blowout due to increased temperature (and therefore pressure) at highway speeds.
So if mine say 28 in the front and 32 in the rear, I shouldn't load them up to 50PSI?
-
You should NEVER exceed the PSI rating on the sidewall of the tire or you risk having a blowout due to increased temperature (and therefore pressure) at highway speeds.
So if mine say 28 in the front and 32 in the rear, I shouldn't load them up to 50PSI?
There are two recommended pressures - the one on your car (either inside the door on the frame of the car or in the glovebox) and the number printed on the side of the tire itself. It's okay to exceed the one on the car. The worst it's going to do is decrease tire life by wearing the middle of the tire down before the sides. It will also increase gas mileage, but when you think about the energy required to make new tires and dispose of the old ones I don't know if you break even or not.
The number printed on the sidewall of the tire should never be exceeded. That is the pressure rating of the tire. Sure, there is a lot of safety marging built into the number on the sidewall, but as the tire ages and the sidewall develops cracks that margin is going to decrease.
If you're in the market for new tires check out low rolling resistance tires (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_rolling_resistance_tires). They usually have higher rated pressures and can reduce rolling resistance by as much as two thirds. They'll have a bigger impace on your mileage if you do a lot of low speed driving where rolling resistance plays a higher factor than wind resistance.
Summary: lower than mfr's specs = faster tire wear and poor mileage (all around sucks)
mfr spec pressure = good tire wear and okay mileage
over mfr spec, but under tire rating = faster tire wear and good mileage
over tire rating = really fast tire wear, fantastic mileage, but greatly increased risk of blowout
-
Not to be too self-promotional about it, but I've been bookmarking a lot of interesting stuff about solar, wind, and electric cars in del.icio.us - if you click the link in my sig block, and pick a tag like "alt.energy" or "sustainability", it should bring up the list.
Lots of cool stuff out there is starting to become possible thanks to the increased oil prices.
-
Not to be too self-promotional about it, but I've been bookmarking a lot of interesting stuff about solar, wind, and electric cars in del.icio.us - if you click the link in my sig block, and pick a tag like "alt.energy" or "sustainability", it should bring up the list.
Lots of cool stuff out there is starting to become possible thanks to the increased oil prices.
Very cool reading, TAD. Thanks for the link!
Something I noticed missing from your links (maybe I just breezed through too quickly) was EV conversions, which means taking a gas-powered car and replacing all the gas stuff with an electric system. It looks like a lot of work and technical skill would be required. I have been talking it over with my boss and an electrical engineer I work with. We are seriously considering doing it: boss puts up the financing, the sparky and I (a mechanical engineer who went to college at university formerly owned by one of the big three) do most of the work for free beer. Since he has about a 60 mile commute every day the economics of an EV conversion are looking more and more attractive. The most in-depth how-to for EV conversions can be found here (http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/main2.htm). It ends up costing about as much as a brand new car (assuming you have a car with a blown up engine, or one you can get for very cheap). Also, being in Michigan there are lots of issues in the winter with keeping batteries warm and driving on slippery roads with an electric drivetrain. Because with an electric motor all the torque is at the low end it's pretty much anti-traction control. Starting off from a stop on icy roads could be a little problematic. It's a fun side project we like to talk about at lunch though.
-
Not to be too self-promotional about it, but I've been bookmarking a lot of interesting stuff about solar, wind, and electric cars in del.icio.us - if you click the link in my sig block, and pick a tag like "alt.energy" or "sustainability", it should bring up the list.
Lots of cool stuff out there is starting to become possible thanks to the increased oil prices.
Very cool reading, TAD. Thanks for the link!
Something I noticed missing from your links (maybe I just breezed through too quickly) was EV conversions, which means taking a gas-powered car and replacing all the gas stuff with an electric system. It looks like a lot of work and technical skill would be required. I have been talking it over with my boss and an electrical engineer I work with. We are seriously considering doing it: boss puts up the financing, the sparky and I (a mechanical engineer who went to college at university formerly owned by one of the big three) do most of the work for free beer. Since he has about a 60 mile commute every day the economics of an EV conversion are looking more and more attractive. The most in-depth how-to for EV conversions can be found here (http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/main2.htm). It ends up costing about as much as a brand new car (assuming you have a car with a blown up engine, or one you can get for very cheap). Also, being in Michigan there are lots of issues in the winter with keeping batteries warm and driving on slippery roads with an electric drivetrain. Because with an electric motor all the torque is at the low end it's pretty much anti-traction control. Starting off from a stop on icy roads could be a little problematic. It's a fun side project we like to talk about at lunch though.
Thanks for that! If it's not in my links, then I probably didn't know about it.
If I may put on my Web 2.0 proselyte hat for a minute, that's what I love about del.icio.us; I have an RSS feed set up so I see everything my "friends" bookmark. In fact, the editor of one of my RSS feeds - the Ecotech Daily (http://ecotechdaily.com/) blog - actually added himself to my del.icio.us network, because he saw me bookmarking stuff from his blog, and I've seen him post a couple of items that I found first.
(And, of course, I've got all the Escape Artists feeds and Jonathan Coulton bookmarked, too. ;) )
-
And we come to another important point on behalf of hybrids: from Mythtickle (http://www.gocomics.com/mythtickle/2008/06/10/)