Escape Artists
Escape Pod => Science Fiction Discussion => Topic started by: Listener on December 03, 2007, 04:17:03 PM
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For want of a better place to put this...
Is it just me, or is Chekhov's Gun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov's_gun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov's_gun)) rapidly becoming the most overused cliche in TV these days? I've seen it recently on so many TV shows (especially ER, but also Las Vegas, Criminal Minds, and most crime-related shows) that I now turn to my wife and say "gun on the mantelpiece" whenever it happens.
Discuss.
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I agree. You can see it coming a mile away, although this is the first time I've encountered the term, so thanks for the education!
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I agree. You can see it coming a mile away, although this is the first time I've encountered the term, so thanks for the education!
I aim to please.
I really noticed it the first time this year on ER, when Pratt was treating a former football player and he said "I need you to sign this consent and we're ready to go, and I have to tell you, there's a very minor chance of side effects x, y, and z." That was about 5 mins from the end of the episode, but I just KNOW it's going to come back to haunt him.
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I've actually noticed it on "Criminal Minds" a lot. The featured Geek will usually mention something weird and out of context early in the episode - an obscure author, the Fiobinacci [sp?] Sequence, Brownian Motion, something - and it turns out to be the crucial fact that ties all the clues together and solves the case. Kind of Deus Ex Machina, but laid up in advance?
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I've actually noticed it on "Criminal Minds" a lot. The featured Geek will usually mention something weird and out of context early in the episode - an obscure author, the Fiobinacci [sp?] Sequence, Brownian Motion, something - and it turns out to be the crucial fact that ties all the clues together and solves the case. Kind of Deus Ex Machina, but laid up in advance?
It's not always Reid, but there's usually SOMETHING.
Speaking of CM, weren't you PISSED when Garcia & Morgan finally admitted their feelings, and then Garcia goes out and decides she thinks that other computer tech should be her next target? ARGH!
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Yeah, I was disappointed at that. I was hoping the wouldn't run so true to type, but what can you do? It's still big network TV. One of the things I like about CM is that it's the SMART guys who save the day. I wonder how much longer this strike is going to run. The networks are already re-airing canceled programs from past seasons.
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Yeah, I was disappointed at that. I was hoping the wouldn't run so true to type, but what can you do? It's still big network TV. One of the things I like about CM is that it's the SMART guys who save the day. I wonder how much longer this strike is going to run. The networks are already re-airing canceled programs from past seasons.
Depends who you talk to. One columnist claimed it was basically done, now, ten days ago and all that was left was final sign off. However, Variety are currently speculating (Which is, of course, a world away from reporting) that it could go on into March. Either way, from the bits I've been able to follow, if the strike isn't resolved very quickly now, basically every actor and a sizable portion of the crews working on most TV shows will, under force majeure legislation, be legally freed from their contracts.
Now if that's right, and I'm NO lawyer, that means that there are going to be some pretty serious contract renegotiations going on once this thing's finished.
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Yeah, I was disappointed at that. I was hoping the wouldn't run so true to type, but what can you do? It's still big network TV. One of the things I like about CM is that it's the SMART guys who save the day. I wonder how much longer this strike is going to run. The networks are already re-airing canceled programs from past seasons.
Depends who you talk to. One columnist claimed it was basically done, now, ten days ago and all that was left was final sign off. However, Variety are currently speculating (Which is, of course, a world away from reporting) that it could go on into March. Either way, from the bits I've been able to follow, if the strike isn't resolved very quickly now, basically every actor and a sizable portion of the crews working on most TV shows will, under force majeure legislation, be legally freed from their contracts.
Now if that's right, and I'm NO lawyer, that means that there are going to be some pretty serious contract renegotiations going on once this thing's finished.
Only the big names could get away with that. That kind of bad faith dealing would end up getting people black-listed. Or studios wouldn't hire them thinking they're just trouble witing to happen.
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Yeah, I was disappointed at that. I was hoping the wouldn't run so true to type, but what can you do? It's still big network TV. One of the things I like about CM is that it's the SMART guys who save the day. I wonder how much longer this strike is going to run. The networks are already re-airing canceled programs from past seasons.
Depends who you talk to. One columnist claimed it was basically done, now, ten days ago and all that was left was final sign off. However, Variety are currently speculating (Which is, of course, a world away from reporting) that it could go on into March. Either way, from the bits I've been able to follow, if the strike isn't resolved very quickly now, basically every actor and a sizable portion of the crews working on most TV shows will, under force majeure legislation, be legally freed from their contracts.
Now if that's right, and I'm NO lawyer, that means that there are going to be some pretty serious contract renegotiations going on once this thing's finished.
Only the big names could get away with that. That kind of bad faith dealing would end up getting people black-listed. Or studios wouldn't hire them thinking they're just trouble witing to happen.
So do you think the networks will start looking for stand-in writers if this goes long enough? They might make a reality show out of it and kill two birds with one stone. "Who Want's to Write A Sit-Com!" They could get Ellen Degeneres to host it. A bunch of wannabe screen writers have to write a 5 minute skit every week, with the rest of the contestants playing the parts (no SAG labor). Every week, America votes for their favorite skit. The winner gets a one year contract to work in Fox's (did you really think it would be any other network?) R&D Department, writing pilots, and will get paid about half scale.
Hey can I copyright this idea?
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Now if that's right, and I'm NO lawyer, that means that there are going to be some pretty serious contract renegotiations going on once this thing's finished.
Only the big names could get away with that. That kind of bad faith dealing would end up getting people black-listed. Or studios wouldn't hire them thinking they're just trouble witing to happen.
Depends, really. It's not the kind of thing lesser-known actors can initiate, but if enough big names do it, that could start a cascade effect. Few people can afford to be singled out as troublemakers, but a lot of people are positioned to take advantage of a trend.
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The actors better get some work done while they can. Aren't contract negotiations for SAG (and the director's guild) coming up this summer?
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Them and the Director's Guild I think.
Which could make life veeeery interesting.
The weird thing is, that this may actually help some shows in trouble. Jericho, with it's seven episode micro season in the can, is going to be one of the only bits of genre programming on the air. Likewise, when the strike eventually resolves, shows like Supernatural are going, conceviably, to get a boost simply by the first new episodes in a while showing up.
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(back on the rails)
One of the things I enjoyed most about David Lynch's Twin Peaks was the appearance of so many "guns on the mantelpiece" that never got used. You never knew which ones were going to be important.
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(back on the rails)
One of the things I enjoyed most about David Lynch's Twin Peaks was the appearance of so many "guns on the mantelpiece" that never got used. You never knew which ones were going to be important.
I love it when there's rat poison on the shelf or something and it just stays on the shelf. One of the charactors is ex-military and he doesn't just crack or go whoop ass on someone.
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If never used, Does Chekhov's Gun turn into a Red Herring?
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If never used, Does Chekhov's Gun turn into a Red Herring?
If shown right, it's just set dressing. Guy's ex-military. He has his old 1911 on the mantel piece. He doesn't use it to kill someone at the end. It's more realistic than using it to kill the bad guy.
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I don't see what's wrong with this device. It seems to be the opposite of deus ex machina. Maybe if every episode of some television show has the murder weapon shown in the first five minutes, but too many red herrings get annoying.
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I don't mind it, but if can see it happening, then it's probably being done wrong.
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I don't mind it, but if can see it happening, then it's probably being done wrong.
That's the point. The problem is when they highlight it in Neon and say, "look, look". Then it's just wait until the last scene when they use it.
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I can't say I've been surprised by one of those in a while — and it's usually so obvious when one is introduced that it makes the plot that more transparent. I agree that Cop shows do this the most — usually in the form of the killer being given more screen time early on than the other suspects, or with some other clear marker such as a typecast actor.
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I will say, I don't mind this device when it's executed well but anytime Cary Elwes is a supporting detective in a crime thriller, I know who the killer is pretty much when I first see him on screen.
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I don't mind it, but if can see it happening, then it's probably being done wrong.
That being said, my favourite example of it's in the old Bablon 5 episode 'Grey 17 is Missing'. Literally the first time you see Garibaldi, he's holding his grandma's old police revolver, cleaning it, telling a story about it and, of course, it ends up playing a role. If it's going to be used, I have no problem with it being used that flagrantly:)
(Of course, I still remember being the only person laughing in the cinema when I saw Outbreak and, when asked where the dead guy caught the virus, Dustin Hoffman says 'In a movie theatre' then he, Rene Russo and Kevin Spacey ALL LOOK INTO THE CAMERA.)
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(Of course, I still remember being the only person laughing in the cinema when I saw Outbreak and, when asked where the dead guy caught the virus, Dustin Hoffman says 'In a movie theatre' then he, Rene Russo and Kevin Spacey ALL LOOK INTO THE CAMERA.)
Umm... That would be a case of Breaking The Fourth Wall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_wall#Breaking_the_fourth_wall). Always a popular device.
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(Of course, I still remember being the only person laughing in the cinema when I saw Outbreak and, when asked where the dead guy caught the virus, Dustin Hoffman says 'In a movie theatre' then he, Rene Russo and Kevin Spacey ALL LOOK INTO THE CAMERA.)
Umm... That would be a case of Breaking The Fourth Wall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_wall#Breaking_the_fourth_wall). Always a popular device.
Yes I know. The point I was trying to communicate (And quite clearly some of it stayed in my head, sorry about that:)) was that I have a fondness for the 'architecture' of a story showing through if it's done right, be it Chekhov's Gun in Grey 17 is Missing or Breaking the Fourth Wall in Outbreak.
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Umm... That would be a case of Breaking The Fourth Wall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_wall#Breaking_the_fourth_wall). Always a popular device.
The Daily Show does that a lot with the Correspondent green-screens, though the mostly non-fiction nature of the show makes it less broken fourth-wall than other examples.
I've always wondered about where books like Bright Lights, Big City fall in terms of the fourth wall. The second person perspective doesn't breed that same sense of suspension of disbelief as first or third does.
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The point I was trying to communicate (And quite clearly some of it stayed in my head, sorry about that:)) was that I have a fondness for the 'architecture' of a story showing through if it's done right, be it Chekhov's Gun in Grey 17 is Missing or Breaking the Fourth Wall in Outbreak.
Yeah. When it's in your face, it's usually for a bit of comic relief.
Something I've been aware of but only recently discovered that there is a word for it, is diegetic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diegetic), and its complementary condition "extra-diegetic", in TV and film. I particularly enjoy when extra-diegetic sound track elements shift into the diegetic.
It's my favourite new word and I'll probably use it a lot for a while. ;)
On a related note - I'm reminded of some discussion recounted on one of the LoTR special features DVDs, where a lighting director was trying to figure out the justification for placing a light in a certain position to highlight an actor's face, probably in Moria or some dark setting. He asks "where is the light coming from?", meaning "where in the context of the story's setting". Somebody else had then replied that it's from "the same place as the music!"
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On a related note - I'm reminded of some discussion recounted on one of the LoTR special features DVDs, where a lighting director was trying to figure out the justification for placing a light in a certain position to highlight an actor's face, probably in Moria or some dark setting. He asks "where is the light coming from?", meaning "where in the context of the story's setting". Somebody else had then replied that it's from "the same place as the music!"
I remember that story, it was the third one when Frodo was captured and in the Oruki tower. He was chained and on the ground and there was this etherial light on him and when one of the actors (the one playing Sam, if memory serves) asked the lighting guy where that kind of a light was supposed to be coming from, the lighting guy said "the same place as the music".
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... one of the actors (the one playing Sam, if memory serves) asked the lighting guy where that kind of a light was supposed to be coming from, the lighting guy said "the same place as the music".
Ah. That sounds right.
If never used, Does Chekhov's Gun turn into a Red Herring?
I think Red Herrings are used purposely for misdirection, where the characters and/or audience are supposed to follow it to a dead end. Like the person who is the favourite suspect on CSI from between 25 to 35 minutes into the show. That's in every episode. They may be an accessory, innocent witness, or unwilling dupe, but never the main perpetrator. In House, they have new Red Herring symptoms every four or five minutes, it seems.
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Considering the original subject, I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned the infamous "red shirt guys".
Oh, wait... I just did.
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... one of the actors (the one playing Sam, if memory serves) asked the lighting guy where that kind of a light was supposed to be coming from, the lighting guy said "the same place as the music".
Ah. That sounds right.
If never used, Does Chekhov's Gun turn into a Red Herring?
I think Red Herrings are used purposely for misdirection, where the characters and/or audience are supposed to follow it to a dead end. Like the person who is the favourite suspect on CSI from between 25 to 35 minutes into the show. That's in every episode. They may be an accessory, innocent witness, or unwilling dupe, but never the main perpetrator. In House, they have new Red Herring symptoms every four or five minutes, it seems.
Yeah. Lupus.
(It's never lupus.)
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I can't help but think the 'guns on the mantel' are used because it lets the viewer think they're smart for having figured it out on their own, even though it's just because they're being fed the information in a more logical progression than the characters are getting it.
I suspect they're over used because with so many programming options most viewers aren't dedicated to any one show, so networks hope you'll skip to their program, feel smart for having 'solved the case', and stick around for a few more episodes.
Unfortunately I also suspect that over use of this kind of plot device is sure to lose as many viewers as it gains.
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Placing the gun on the mantel helps to stave off accusations of deus ex machina.
... it lets the viewer think they're smart for having figured it out on their own.
That works for me. An essential element of game play is that it be "just difficult enough" not to win too easily.
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Placing the gun on the mantel helps to stave off accusations of deus ex machina.
... it lets the viewer think they're smart for having figured it out on their own.
That works for me. An essential element of game play is that it be "just difficult enough" not to win too easily.
I guess that's why it's called "game play"... real life is never that simple.
Actually, I think some shows are cottoning to the idea of Chekhov's Gun and making it more difficult to solve the crime... like, purposefully placing the gun there, then picking it up, loading it, aiming, cocking the hammer... and putting it away so you have a free hand for the sword instead.
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... one of the actors (the one playing Sam, if memory serves) asked the lighting guy where that kind of a light was supposed to be coming from, the lighting guy said "the same place as the music".
Ah. That sounds right.
If never used, Does Chekhov's Gun turn into a Red Herring?
I think Red Herrings are used purposely for misdirection, where the characters and/or audience are supposed to follow it to a dead end. Like the person who is the favourite suspect on CSI from between 25 to 35 minutes into the show. That's in every episode. They may be an accessory, innocent witness, or unwilling dupe, but never the main perpetrator. In House, they have new Red Herring symptoms every four or five minutes, it seems.
Yeah. Lupus.
(It's never lupus.)
Saw a good Checkov's Gun on House last night. ***WARNING HOUSE SEASON 3 EP 4 SPOILER ***
The ultimate correct diagnosis (that could conveniently be cured with a single treatment) was worms all over his insides. The kid could actually see them swimming around inside his eyeballs. The CGun was in the beginning of the Ep he was drawing squiggly lines on his chalkboard. This felt like the show was just establishing that he was autistic and uncommunicative, but it turned out to be the Big Clue at the end. It made me think of this discussion and that if you sneak the CGun in your story under the guise of another writing device it can be more effective.
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I heard a good one on the Drabblecast the other day, the story was "The Arc of Hronos." I won't spoil it, in case anyone here listens to Norm but hasn't heard that one yet.
I have learned something from watching House: Every concievable ailment can be considered a symptom the flu or lupus, but no human has ever had either disease. If flu or lupus is ever indicated, you should immediately shave the patients head, as they in fact have lyme disease.
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I heard a good one on the Drabblecast the other day, the story was "The Arc of Hronos." I won't spoil it, in case anyone here listens to Norm but hasn't heard that one yet.
I have learned something from watching House: Every concievable ailment can be considered a symptom the flu or lupus, but no human has ever had either disease. If flu or lupus is ever indicated, you should immediately shave the patients head, as they in fact have lyme disease.
Maybe we should start a new House thread.
What I learned from House: You might as well let them prep you for surgery and have a crash card handy when you go into the MRI machine. If you weren't moments from death before you went in there, you will be once they turn it on.
Maybe if the somehow established the danger of MRI machines at the beginning of the episode... (lame attempt to stay on topic).
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I heard a good one on the Drabblecast the other day, the story was "The Arc of Hronos." I won't spoil it, in case anyone here listens to Norm but hasn't heard that one yet.
I have learned something from watching House: Every concievable ailment can be considered a symptom the flu or lupus, but no human has ever had either disease. If flu or lupus is ever indicated, you should immediately shave the patients head, as they in fact have lyme disease.
Maybe we should start a new House thread.
What I learned from House: You might as well let them prep you for surgery and have a crash card handy when you go into the MRI machine. If you weren't moments from death before you went in there, you will be once they turn it on.
Maybe if the somehow established the danger of MRI machines at the beginning of the episode... (lame attempt to stay on topic).
There is the sign on the wall that says, " (flip card number) of days since our last death in the MRI machine."
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Maybe if the somehow established the danger of MRI machines at the beginning of the episode... (lame attempt to stay on topic).
I don't think that any viewer who's seen the third Messiah mini-series (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0422744/) (the one in the hospital following the prison riot) needs any kind of visual clue to be terrified of MRI machines. I've no idea whether it's ever been shown outside the UK, though, so I may be talking to myself.
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Saw another MRI scene on NCIS last night. This time, a needle was yanked from a cadaver by the MRI.
Funny, because Mythbusters actually checked this out by sticking a piece of metal in one of the hosts and sticking him in an MRI. No movement.
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Saw another MRI scene on NCIS last night. This time, a needle was yanked from a cadaver by the MRI.
Funny, because Mythbusters actually checked this out by sticking a piece of metal in one of the hosts and sticking him in an MRI. No movement.
I think it just fucks up the readings a bit. If they know about it, they can work around it. I think the whole flying metal stuff is BS. It's kind of like metal in a microwave.
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Saw another MRI scene on NCIS last night. This time, a needle was yanked from a cadaver by the MRI.
Funny, because Mythbusters actually checked this out by sticking a piece of metal in one of the hosts and sticking him in an MRI. No movement.
I think it just fucks up the readings a bit. If they know about it, they can work around it. I think the whole flying metal stuff is BS. It's kind of like metal in a microwave.
Um, I've seen (pictures of) the damage that flying metal from an MRI can do. It's not at all like a microwave. An MRI machine is a big ass magnet. Now, if the metal is embedded *inside* something more solid than jello (such as a human), then it's unlikely to be pulled out - that part is indeed mostly myth - but loose metal will and does fly and attach to the magent.
Here is a link to an article about a boy who was killed in 2001 by an oxygen tank which was pulled into an MRI machine by the magnet: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C04E4D91731F931A1575BC0A9679C8B63 .
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Saw another MRI scene on NCIS last night. This time, a needle was yanked from a cadaver by the MRI.
Funny, because Mythbusters actually checked this out by sticking a piece of metal in one of the hosts and sticking him in an MRI. No movement.
I think it just fucks up the readings a bit. If they know about it, they can work around it. I think the whole flying metal stuff is BS. It's kind of like metal in a microwave.
Um, I've seen (pictures of) the damage that flying metal from an MRI can do. It's not at all like a microwave. An MRI machine is a big ass magnet. Now, if the metal is embedded *inside* something more solid than jello (such as a human), then it's unlikely to be pulled out - that part is indeed mostly myth - but loose metal will and does fly and attach to the magent.
OK, I went to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MRI#Safety) to sort this all out and there are three factors having to do with metal in the body and one factor having to do with metal in the room.
- Metal in the body may move around, but that seems to be a problem mostly with metal fragments in eyes.
- Metal may suffer inductive heating like in a microwave.
- Metal causes a blackout effect in the scans.
- Metal outside the machine may be drawn to it. So flying scalpels are a possibility if they are made out of ferrous metal.
Cool video here (http://www.mri-planning.com/videos/MRI_safety_video.html)
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Saw another MRI scene on NCIS last night. This time, a needle was yanked from a cadaver by the MRI.
Funny, because Mythbusters actually checked this out by sticking a piece of metal in one of the hosts and sticking him in an MRI. No movement.
I think it just fucks up the readings a bit. If they know about it, they can work around it. I think the whole flying metal stuff is BS. It's kind of like metal in a microwave.
Wait... so... Roseanne Barr COULDN'T have blown up her house like she did in "She-Devil"?
Oh noes! My entire perception of reality has shifted!
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On Heroes they established that Sylar has multiple powers. So they can then surprise us with new powers we didn't know he had, but we don't feel cheated. It would be lame if Claire can suddenly see through walls, but it's OK if Sylar can.
What would you call this? Chekov's Collection Of Weapons Extensive Enough That It May Include A Gun?
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The Wire's opening credits is a good example of Chekov's gun.
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On Heroes they established that Sylar has multiple powers. So they can then surprise us with new powers we didn't know he had, but we don't feel cheated. It would be lame if Claire can suddenly see through walls, but it's OK if Sylar can.
What would you call this? Chekov's Collection Of Weapons Extensive Enough That It May Include A Gun?
Well... given the backstory episodes, we know that Sylar only has the powers of people he's killed plus "grok". To the best of my knowledge, they established which powers he had pretty clearly, though yes, I agree, they can surprise us with new powers. However, if they do it too much, it becomes deus ex machina, not Chekhov's Gun. Plus, IMO if Sylar uses a new power, it's not CG because the power he's using, at its root, is "the power to grok other heroes' powers by cutting off their heads and examining their brains". It's the same power Peter has, although Peter doesn't have to cut heads off. I almost think Sylar only cuts heads off because he thinks he has to.
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On Heroes they established that Sylar has multiple powers. So they can then surprise us with new powers we didn't know he had, but we don't feel cheated. It would be lame if Claire can suddenly see through walls, but it's OK if Sylar can.
What would you call this? Chekov's Collection Of Weapons Extensive Enough That It May Include A Gun?
Well... given the backstory episodes, we know that Sylar only has the powers of people he's killed plus "grok". To the best of my knowledge, they established which powers he had pretty clearly, though yes, I agree, they can surprise us with new powers. However, if they do it too much, it becomes deus ex machina, not Chekhov's Gun. Plus, IMO if Sylar uses a new power, it's not CG because the power he's using, at its root, is "the power to grok other heroes' powers by cutting off their heads and examining their brains". It's the same power Peter has, although Peter doesn't have to cut heads off. I almost think Sylar only cuts heads off because he thinks he has to.
Good points.
You're right, they established most of Sylar's powers after we saw him use them. This is kind of like when the story starts in the middle of some dramatic situation, then the whole episode is a flashback. This seems to be more common recently. I think I've seen it on BSG and House. Is this like a reverse Chekov's Gun? If someone gets shot in act one, you have to show the gun in act three. So our "ah-ha" moment comes not when someone gets shot, but when the gun is being cleaned.
And yeah, I think Sylar just likes poppin' heads.
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On Heroes they established that Sylar has multiple powers. So they can then surprise us with new powers we didn't know he had, but we don't feel cheated. It would be lame if Claire can suddenly see through walls, but it's OK if Sylar can.
What would you call this? Chekov's Collection Of Weapons Extensive Enough That It May Include A Gun?
Well... given the backstory episodes, we know that Sylar only has the powers of people he's killed plus "grok". To the best of my knowledge, they established which powers he had pretty clearly, though yes, I agree, they can surprise us with new powers. However, if they do it too much, it becomes deus ex machina, not Chekhov's Gun. Plus, IMO if Sylar uses a new power, it's not CG because the power he's using, at its root, is "the power to grok other heroes' powers by cutting off their heads and examining their brains". It's the same power Peter has, although Peter doesn't have to cut heads off. I almost think Sylar only cuts heads off because he thinks he has to.
Good points.
You're right, they established most of Sylar's powers after we saw him use them. This is kind of like when the story starts in the middle of some dramatic situation, then the whole episode is a flashback. This seems to be more common recently. I think I've seen it on BSG and House. Is this like a reverse Chekov's Gun? If someone gets shot in act one, you have to show the gun in act three. So our "ah-ha" moment comes not when someone gets shot, but when the gun is being cleaned.
I blame JJ Abrams for that. So many episodes of Alias were "here's something happening now, but let's go back 72 hours to see how we got here". It is becoming terribly annoying. I'm all for being dropped into the middle of the action and then getting SOME backstory, but not start-now-then-go-back-then-return. (In the book I'm writing, it starts now, flashes back a few minutes through the first chapter, then every successive chapter flips from now to five-years-ago. I started doing it because it was different; now it's just fun.)