Escape Artists
The Lounge at the End of the Universe => Gallimaufry => Topic started by: stePH on June 06, 2008, 10:19:23 PM
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I fully expect this thread to be much shorter than its counterpart/predecessor (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=944.0).
One off the top of my head: The Road Warrior was much better than Mad Max, and Beyond Thunderdome was the best of the three.
Next?
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I love Star Wars, but Empire Strikes Back is a masterpiece.
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I love Star Wars, but Empire Strikes Back is a masterpiece.
I had the same thought; unfortunately Empire is really only half of a movie, and I think it's undercut by Jedi being its second half.
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I love Star Wars, but Empire Strikes Back is a masterpiece.
I had the same thought; unfortunately Empire is really only half of a movie, and I think it's undercut by Jedi being its second half.
Wait wait wait. We're not going to make this into, "Good, but is it really a movie, are we?" ;)
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I love Star Wars, but Empire Strikes Back is a masterpiece.
I had the same thought; unfortunately Empire is really only half of a movie, and I think it's undercut by Jedi being its second half.
Wait wait wait. We're not going to make this into, "Good, but is it really a movie, are we?" ;)
:D :D :D :D :D
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Wait, are we looking for movies whose sequels are better then them? Like Terminator?
Or are we looking for the opposite of the "movies destroyed by sequels", which is movies that actually became better themselves because of their sequels (regardless of whether the sequel was good or not)? Because I can't think of any of those offhand...
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Wait, are we looking for movies whose sequels are better then them? Like Terminator?
Or are we looking for the opposite of the "movies destroyed by sequels", which is movies that actually became better themselves because of their sequels (regardless of whether the sequel was good or not)? Because I can't think of any of those offhand...
Either one; take your pick. (The "Mad Max" series is in the first category, so I think that's what I had in mind.)
[edit]
Yeah, the first category. The subject is "Movies Improved Upon by", not "Movies Improved by". Feel free to name any of the second type if you think of any.
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Well, Spiderman 2 was much better than the original Spiderman. Spiderman 3 was not.
Does Wrath of Khan count as a sequel to ST: TMP? It never acknowledges that the first movie ever happened. It is, however, a sequel to "Space Seed", which is of course Not A Movie.
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Does Wrath of Khan count as a sequel to ST: TMP? It never acknowledges that the first movie ever happened.
I believe it's generally accepted that it occurs after the first movie and the departure of Captain Decker. And I question the judgment of anybody who claims it isn't better than the first movie. But for my money, none of the sequels that followed it were nearly as good.
But ultimately I must say, The Wrath of Kahn is a sequel that improves on its predecessor.
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned The Lord of the Rings. At the theater I was in, people actually booed at the end of The Fellowship of the Ring, I presume because they felt totally ripped off by the ending -- which has the different members of the Fellowship heading off in their different directions, with no resolution at all.
I wasn't that crazy about The Two Towers, which chucked much of Tolkein's narrative structure for an overlong battle for Helm's Deep. (Again bringing up the question: What sort of idiot fortress designer builds and indestructible bridge leading up to a wooden door?)
But Return of the King pulled off what it had to do with elan, redeemed the other two, and Oscar sure liked it...
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It's tricky to classify the new Batman movies as remakes, or sequels, but I think they are doing an excellent job. Batman Begins took what had been previously an over-the-top franchise (I love Tim Burton, but seriously...) and gave us a remake of a character that was easier to understand, more realistic. Not to mention a lot darker. The Dark Knight looks to be terrifying.
So excited.
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned The Lord of the Rings. At the theater I was in, people actually booed at the end of The Fellowship of the Ring, I presume because they felt totally ripped off by the ending -- which has the different members of the Fellowship heading off in their different directions, with no resolution at all.
I wasn't that crazy about The Two Towers, which chucked much of Tolkein's narrative structure for an overlong battle for Helm's Deep. (Again bringing up the question: What sort of idiot fortress designer builds and indestructible bridge leading up to a wooden door?)
But Return of the King pulled off what it had to do with elan, redeemed the other two, and Oscar sure liked it...
At risk of entering "it's not really a movie" territory again, I consider the "trilogy" to actually be one long movie in three parts (as no one part of Tolkien's saga was meant to stand alone). So the "ending" of Fellowship is not really an ending; it's just a pause. Oh, and not quite to the point of this thread, but I agree about the Helm's Deep battle being over-emphasized in part 2. Pare it down to the level of importance it had in the book (and dump that stupid diversion halfway back to Gondor with Faramir), and the trip through Shelob's cave could have been kept in the second part where it belonged.
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It's tricky to classify the new Batman movies as remakes, or sequels, but I think they are doing an excellent job. Batman Begins took what had been previously an over-the-top franchise (I love Tim Burton, but seriously...) and gave us a remake of a character that was easier to understand, more realistic. Not to mention a lot darker. The Dark Knight looks to be terrifying.
So excited.
I think they are neither remakes nor sequels. IMO a remake would be another version of the same film, e.g., Cape Fear or The Italian Job, while a sequel would be a new story chronologically following the events of the previous film.
For that matter, I'm not sure I'd even call Batman Begins a prequel -- more of a "reset", like the upcoming Star Trek movie. But I haven't seen it, so I can't really say for certain.
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It's tricky to classify the new Batman movies as remakes, or sequels, but I think they are doing an excellent job. Batman Begins took what had been previously an over-the-top franchise (I love Tim Burton, but seriously...) and gave us a remake of a character that was easier to understand, more realistic. Not to mention a lot darker. The Dark Knight looks to be terrifying.
So excited.
I think they are neither remakes nor sequels. IMO a remake would be another version of the same film, e.g., Cape Fear or The Italian Job, while a sequel would be a new story chronologically following the events of the previous film.
For that matter, I'm not sure I'd even call Batman Begins a prequel -- more of a "reset", like the upcoming Star Trek movie. But I haven't seen it, so I can't really say for certain.
If I were on the creative team of Batman Begins et al, I would want to disavow all knowledge of the previous Batman movies. Yes, the first two were good, but all of the following movies were so bad that it almost ruined the whole franchise for me.
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Last night I remembered Evil Dead 2 which definitely improves on its predecessor, though I think of it as more a remake than a sequel. And Army of Darkness, unquestionably a sequel (though its beginning rewrites the end of ED2) was even better.
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Last night I remembered Evil Dead 2 which definitely improves on its predecessor, though I think of it as more a remake than a sequel. And Army of Darkness, unquestionably a sequel (though its beginning rewrites the end of ED2) was even better.
Yup, I agree on both counts (though the ending of Evil Dead 2 is far cooler than the retconned version at the beginning of Army of Darkness. And Army's of Darkness endings (both versions) suck. But the movie itself is great).
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Toy Story 2. ;D
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Toy Story 2. ;D
I think it was a great sequel and added to the greatness of the first, but I don't think you can say it improved upon the original.
I'll also add that while Terminator 2 was bigger than 1, 1 was the better all around picture, low budget and all.
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I'll also add that while Terminator 2 was bigger than 1, 1 was the better all around picture, low budget and all.
I disagree. Terminator 1 was just a slasher film with a robot. Terminator 2 was considerably more interesting to watch.
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I'll also add that while Terminator 2 was bigger than 1, 1 was the better all around picture, low budget and all.
I disagree. Terminator 1 was just a slasher film with a robot. Terminator 2 was considerably more interesting to watch.
Too much magic technology. The need to make Arnold a hero was annoying. 2 also felt some need to make wonderful statements and get a bit preachy.
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Toy Story 2. ;D
I think it was a great sequel and added to the greatness of the first, but I don't think you can say it improved upon the original.
I'll also add that while Terminator 2 was bigger than 1, 1 was the better all around picture, low budget and all.
Toy Story: I thought exploring Woody's worth as a toy in the first movie was deep and brilliant, and I was floored that they were able to not only revisit the theme successfully from another angle, but expand upon it. (Yeah, I know... I read too much into EVERYTHING. Even the significance of the names "Woody" and "Buzz"... ;) )
Terminator: Sure, there were holes you could drive a truck through in the first two, but it was the "twist ending" of T3 (oh, silly viewer... there's no 'mainframe' ... the Internet came alive!) that pissed me off. That, and the obvious cookie-cutter pattern of taking T2, adding a hot chick and the word "nano" to the killer robot, and expecting us to like it. Fie!
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Too much magic technology. The need to make Arnold a hero was annoying. 2 also felt some need to make wonderful statements and get a bit preachy.
Oh, it's not a perfect movie - far from it. But I still think it's better than the first one.
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Toy Story 2. ;D
I think it was a great sequel and added to the greatness of the first, but I don't think you can say it improved upon the original.
I'll also add that while Terminator 2 was bigger than 1, 1 was the better all around picture, low budget and all.
Toy Story: I thought exploring Woody's worth as a toy in the first movie was deep and brilliant, and I was floored that they were able to not only revisit the theme successfully from another angle, but expand upon it. (Yeah, I know... I read too much into EVERYTHING. Even the significance of the names "Woody" and "Buzz"... ;) )
Terminator: Sure, there were holes you could drive a truck through in the first two, but it was the "twist ending" of T3 (oh, silly viewer... there's no 'mainframe' ... the Internet came alive!) that pissed me off. That, and the obvious cookie-cutter pattern of taking T2, adding a hot chick and the word "nano" to the killer robot, and expecting us to like it. Fie!
3 almost pushed Terminator into the Movies destroyed by Sequels thread.
Too much magic technology. The need to make Arnold a hero was annoying. 2 also felt some need to make wonderful statements and get a bit preachy.
Oh, it's not a perfect movie - far from it. But I still think it's better than the first one.
Agree to disagree then.
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3 almost pushed Terminator into the Movies destroyed by Sequels thread.
That's one thing we can agree on.
As for Toy Story 2, for me it's in the category of "sequels that equalled their predecessors". Both 1 and 2 are wonderful, but I don't think either is strictly better than the other - 2 adds depth on some levels (Woody's history) but loses it in others (the toy-torturing kid next door is a far more interesting villian than the toy-store owner).
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When I was in college years and years ago, this subject came up. The only three we could think of at the time were Star Trek II, Road Warrior, and Evil Dead 2. So I agree on all those. Spider-man 2 as well.
And let's see... Aliens was fantastic in a totally different way than Alien, and I couldn't say which is better. But the existence of the second movie makes the first one much cooler. And the existence of the third really hurt the whole deal.
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When I was in college years and years ago, this subject came up. The only three we could think of at the time were Star Trek II, Road Warrior, and Evil Dead 2. So I agree on all those. Spider-man 2 as well.
And let's see... Aliens was fantastic in a totally different way than Alien, and I couldn't say which is better. But the existence of the second movie makes the first one much cooler. And the existence of the third really hurt the whole deal.
I think it's telling you didn't mention 4 at all.
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There was no fourth Alien movie. Didn't happen, I tell you.
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There was no fourth Alien movie. Didn't happen, I tell you.
Repressed memories and denial are at work in this thread.
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X2.
I thought the first one was pretty great, especially considering what superhero movies had become at that time. But the second one was amazing.
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X2.
I thought the first one was pretty great, especially considering what superhero movies had become at that time. But the second one was amazing.
As I said in The IRON MAN thread (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1667.0), one of the two best-ever comic book movies.
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It seems like comic book movies are one of the places where it's possible to have a sequel at least as good as the first one was.
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But only the first sequel. The third movie in a comic-book franchise is destined to be shite.
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It seems like comic book movies are one of the places where it's possible to have a sequel at least as good as the first one was.
Yeah, that's true. Probably because, for me at least, the "how the hero gets his powers" part of superhero movies is usually kind of boring, especially when it's a story I know well: Spiderman, I'm looking at you.
Anyway, two more, non-superhero variety:
Dawn of the Dead is a sequel that improves on an already great movie. I love the feeling of claustrophobia in Night of the Living Dead, but I love the more expansive scope of DotD.
Not technically sequels, but The Good, the Bad and the Ugly is better than For a Few Dollars More, which in turn is better than A Fistful of Dollars. But they're all good movies.
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It's not sci-fi, but I believe that Clerks was improved upon by HAVING sequels. Mallrats wasn't a spectacular film, but the fact that there were six films in that continuum -- those two plus Chasing Amy, Dogma, JaSBSB, and Clerks 2 -- makes the characters that much more real. I'm a character person, and the better-developed a character is, the more I can forgive in the plot or the telling.
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It's not sci-fi, but I believe that Clerks was improved upon by HAVING sequels. Mallrats wasn't a spectacular film, but the fact that there were six films in that continuum -- those two plus Chasing Amy, Dogma, JaSBSB, and Clerks 2 -- makes the characters that much more real. I'm a character person, and the better-developed a character is, the more I can forgive in the plot or the telling.
obnitpick:
Clerks 2 is the only real sequel to Clerks. Yes, the rest of the movies were in the same continuum and had some characters in common ... but Robert Downey Jr. will be in The Incredible Hulk as Tony Stark; does that make it a sequel to Iron Man?
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Too much magic technology. The need to make Arnold a hero was annoying. 2 also felt some need to make wonderful statements and get a bit preachy.
Oh, it's not a perfect movie - far from it. But I still think it's better than the first one.
I'm firmly with Nash on this one. I rewatched T2 last month (hadn't seen it but once in the early 90s) and three things really stuck out for me:
1: I really hate preteen John Connor.
2: The "Tin Man with Heart" Terminator was hokey as all-get-out.
3: the "liquid metal" Terminator strains even my willing suspension of disbelief. It's also the thing I hate most about the new TV series.
Original The Terminator for the win.
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oh come on. liquid metal terminator was AWESOME :p
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Quite a bit of threadromancy here, but since Steph agreed with me, I like it.
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T2 was great fun to watch and everything. But for my money, the Terminator is a way better movie and avoids much of the "Huh?" moments T2 invites on itself (and never answers).
Although I do think Sarah Connor's evolution was pretty kickass.
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Cube and Cube 2, there is no 3rd Cube movie!
I have to agree on Dawn of the Dead, but will go further and say that Day and Land each added to the story as a whole.
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I'm not convinced the first two Cube movies existed either, though...
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How about The Attack of the Killer Tomatoes, Return of the Killer Tomatoes, Killer Tomatoes Strike Back and Killer Tomatoes Eat France?
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Huh. Am I really the first one to mention The Dark Knight?
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Huh. Am I really the first one to mention The Dark Knight?
Might be. I only just saw Batman Begins a couple of months ago. But somebody mentioned it upthread I'm sure, questioning whether it counts as being related to the Keaton/Kilmer/Clooney series (I say no.)
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Huh. Am I really the first one to mention The Dark Knight?
It's hard to say if Dark Knight improved on Batman Begins, or if it just carried on the same high standard.
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Was Casino Royale a sequel? (More of a prequel, really...) In any case, it's the best Bond flick I've ever seen (and yes, I've seen Goldfinger). I hope the winning streak continues with the next one they're making.
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Rise of the Silver Surfer was a pretty enjoyable sequel:
Less Julian McMahon
more true to the comics look for Ben Grimm
New Technology (the plane)
great effects
the Silver Surfer
It really built on the first movie well.
However, so many people hated the first movie...
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Was Casino Royale a sequel? (More of a prequel, really...) In any case, it's the best Bond flick I've ever seen (and yes, I've seen Goldfinger). I hope the winning streak continues with the next one they're making.
Huzzah. But the Bond franchise seems doomed with a never-ending story line. In my oppinion.
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Conan the Barbarian looks like an oscar winning masterpiece next to the cliche filled sequel, Conan the Destroyer.
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Conan the Barbarian looks like an oscar winning masterpiece next to the cliche filled sequel, Conan the Destroyer.
Then it belongs in the Movies Destroyed by Sequels (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=944.0) thread.
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Conan the Barbarian looks like an oscar winning masterpiece next to the cliche filled sequel, Conan the Destroyer.
Then it belongs in the Movies Destroyed by Sequels (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=944.0) thread.
stePH started this thread and patrols the boundaries like a rabid Minuteman on the Mexican border.
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Wait, no Godfather 2? Seriously? Or are we limiting discussion to SF/F subjects?
I'm going to risk being struck by lightning and say that the opening portions of Star Trek TMP, when they were reassembling the crew, are my favorite part of any ST movie, despite how the rest of it went. They actually made me feel like the crew went on to have lived full lives outside of their time on the Enterprise, while all subsequent films for both TOS and TNG left a feeling that the characters largely froze in the time the series was in place, and were simply waiting to go back to the status quo of the rest of their lives.
Okay, I'm not even going to come close to arguing that it was a better film overall than the others, but that one aspect was the best thing about any of the 10 films to me.
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Conan the Barbarian looks like an oscar winning masterpiece next to the cliche filled sequel, Conan the Destroyer.
Then it belongs in the Movies Destroyed by Sequels (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=944.0) thread.
stePH started this thread and patrols the boundaries like a rabid Minuteman on the Mexican border.
I would totally* support the Minutemen, if they dressed up like Hello Kitty when they went on their patrols.
*Disclaimer: I would not actually support them. But it would be hilarious.
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Wait, no Godfather 2? Seriously? Or are we limiting discussion to SF/F subjects?
Not limited to SF/F; if you think The Godfather Part II improved on The Godfather you can put it here.
stePH started this thread and patrols the boundaries like a rabid Minuteman on the Mexican border.
:D Yeah, there's a couple of other messageboards where I've pointed out that a thread would have been better-placed in a different subforum. I like when things go in the appropriate forums. Sue me.