Escape Artists
Escape Pod => Science Fiction Discussion => Topic started by: Talia on May 24, 2009, 03:16:52 AM
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I figure that's epic Geekfail and I should amend this unfortunate situation.
Where should I start, and how would I go about affordably acquiring/renting such things. Available on Netflix?
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I have also never seen any of it and don't plan on remedying he situation.
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I figure that's epic Geekfail and I should amend this unfortunate situation.
Where should I start, and how would I go about affordably acquiring/renting such things. Available on Netflix?
The good thing about Doctor Who is there's so much of it and the bad thing, for a newcomer, is there's so much of it:) I'd recommend starting with either one of the following:
-Doctor Who and the Daleks/Dalek Invasion of Earth-The two 1960s-produced movies starring Peter Cushing are entirely stand alone, don't fit into canon at all and are actually a lot of fun. The Dalek appearing out of the Thames in Invasion of Earth was one of the first things I can remember scaring the hell out of me.
-New Who Series 1-The relaunched series is pretty much the perfect place to jump aboard. There's a plot thread running through the entire season which puts the viewer in the same boat as both Rose, the companion, and the Doctor, as you gradually find out who the Doctor is, where he came from and why he acts like he does. There are a couple of brilliant payoffs towards the end too so I'd recommend, strongly, that you avoid any spoilers.
Either one of those should be on netflix for relatively little, the Cushing movies as a pair and Series 1 as a boxed set. That any use?
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Agreed. The new ones with Christopher Eccleston are great and assume no previous knowledge. But they are a little pricey (for Americans, anyway).
Never watched the Peter Cushing movie, thanks for the tip.
I had a hard time finding A box set of any season of Doctor Who except for the modern ones. You can a couple of episodes strung together and packaged as one movie or something. It's chaotic enough that I don't think I'll be going back and catching up with the old eps.
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Agreed. The new ones with Christopher Eccleston are great and assume no previous knowledge. But they are a little pricey (for Americans, anyway).
Never watched the Peter Cushing movie, thanks for the tip.
I had a hard time finding A box set of any season of Doctor Who except for the modern ones. You can a couple of episodes strung together and packaged as one movie or something. It's chaotic enough that I don't think I'll be going back and catching up with the old eps.
The problem with the Peter Cushing movies are that they're based on the serials with William Hartnell as the Doctor, and watching those I found his character to be kind of an ass. His behavior is half crotchety old man, half petulant child.
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I would say either start from the beginning of the new series, or if you want to plunge into the classic show, look for some "best bits" rather than any kind of systematic approach. If you like that, there's plenty of time to hunt down every obscure story in the classic show's 700 ep history. :)
Here's a small number of logical starting points:
1) The War Games. This is the last story of the 2nd Doctor, and the one that finally reveals the Doctor's backstory. It's possibly the best of the 60s B&W era. Warning: this one is 10 episodes long, so be prepared for a... leisurely... approach to pacing.
I'm going to recommend several stories from the Tom Baker era, who was the most popular of the classic Doctors, so is a good starting point:
2) Genesis of the Daleks. Not as flawless as some would claim, but still a very good story revealing how the Daleks were created, and introducing for the first time... duh..,. the Daleks' creator, Davros.
3) Pyramid of Mars. Nothing special about this one from a continuity perspective, but it's arguably the best story from arguably the best season the show ever had.
4) City of Death. This story by Douglas Adams is well-loved, despite this season as a whole being very controversial. Unlike some other entries this season, there's a solid, entertaining story along with the clever dialog and humor. This story is the equivalent of sitting down with a glass of wine and having a conversation with an old friend.
And two from the later years:
5) The Five Doctors. This story is, frankly, a mess. But it still has a following, because it was the 20th anniversary special, featured all five Doctors (although they recast the dead one), a ton of guest stars and a who's who of monsters. If that kind of "everything and the kitchen sink" spectacular appeals to you, it may be worth checking out.
6) Remembrance of the Daleks
6a) Curse of Fenric
I have a lot of affection for the 7th Doctor, who was extremely controversial. Either of these stories showcase what his fans love about him, at his dark, manipulative, yet fundamentally decent self.
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5) The Five Doctors. This story is, frankly, a mess. But it still has a following, because it was the 20th anniversary special, featured all five Doctors (although they recast the dead one), a ton of guest stars and a who's who of monsters. If that kind of "everything and the kitchen sink" spectacular appeals to you, it may be worth checking out.
NO! Avoid, avoid, avoid! This one is weapons-grade SUCK! I would watch "Delta and the Bannermen"* again before I watched this one!
* I love Doctor #7 also ("Ghost Light" is my favorite), but doG almighty did he have some horrid serials.
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"featured all five Doctors" is misleading. It featured 1, 2, 3, and 5. Tom Baker opted out, so they wrote in a plot contrivance to have Doctor 4 stuck in limbo for the whole story, and all of his presence onscreen was leftover footage from an unaired, uncompleted story.
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This is complicated :P Particularly since i have something of an neurosis for needing to start from the START of a series, and not skip all around. No matter how sucky some may be :P
Although a friend of mine just told me she has soemthing like 90% of all original series episodes on VHS she is willing to loan.:) (time to acquire a working VCR).
This is helpful,thanks
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Talia, get on freecycle. YOu'll have a working VCR for free in no time. You just need to go pick it up.
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Hehe, true. I <3 freecycle. :)
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This is complicated :P Particularly since i have something of an neurosis for needing to start from the START of a series, and not skip all around. No matter how sucky some may be :P
Although a friend of mine just told me she has soemthing like 90% of all original series episodes on VHS she is willing to loan.:) (time to acquire a working VCR).
This is helpful,thanks
I'm 100% with you on not starting stuff in the middle. I miss out on some good episodes of Babylon 5 and Stargate because I wasn't too impressed with the first season and gave up before it got good. But there is so much material in Doctor Who, I think you should give yourself permission to start with the recent series. It's what people are talking about anyway. Do you want to have to watch 20+ years worth of programming (some of it crap) before you can comment on the last weeks episode?
Though I admit you're friend's collection sounds like a real treasure. I commented above about how it's hard to find a coherent collection. Someone should transfer those beauties to digital.
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I watched some of the old ones as a child when they were on PBS here in the States, but stopped until I started watching the Eccleston series via grey market means when they started airing.
(Note: As I have not really be posting recently, but feel that doing on topic on it would really be overkill, I'll say here quickly that I just started a new summer internship that has been sucking up time and requires me to get up early and actually work (ie, not spend hours on the forum during the day).
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Although a friend of mine just told me she has soemthing like 90% of all original series episodes on VHS she is willing to loan.:) (time to acquire a working VCR).
Though I admit you're friend's collection sounds like a real treasure. I commented above about how it's hard to find a coherent collection. Someone should transfer those beauties to digital.
I wonder what form the "lost" episodes are in on said tapes. Does Talia's friend actually possess intact copies of the Hartnell, Troughton, and Pertwee episodes that the BBC wiped? Or are they the reconstructions from audio and telesnaps?
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NO! Avoid, avoid, avoid! This one is weapons-grade SUCK! I would watch "Delta and the Bannermen"* again before I watched this one!
I don't like it much, either, but you have to admit it's very popular amongst many fans, and if I'm trying to help someone get into the show, I'm not comfortable turning them away from something that might be a good "in" for them just because of my personal tastes.
This is complicated :P Particularly since i have something of an neurosis for needing to start from the START of a series, and not skip all around. No matter how sucky some may be :P
Well, in fairness, if you had prefaced your request for starting points with "the very beginning is the only answer I want to hear," that's probably the answer I would have given you. :)
But if you start from the beginning, you should know that if you don't like slow-paced 50s-sci-fi type shows, you're talking about over 250 episodes before you get to the "good part!" I do like those early ones, but they're a very acquired taste, especially considering how padded many of those early stories are.
Also, many of the stories from the first 6 seasons are now missing, either entirely, or missing one or more episodes out of a multi-episode arc. They have the audio tracks because of a diligent 60s listener who held a tape recorder up to the TV, but no video. Those missing or incomplete stories have been released as audio CDs, with a narrator added to describe visuals that are essential to the story, but that will complicate things.
(There are also reconstructions creating a new video track using still frames, scraps of surviving video, scrolling text and other devices, but I find those almost unwatchable and prefer the BBC audio versions.)
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Everyone is right in that seeing all of it isn't neccessary and could actually be counterproductive - the show has changed a lot over the years. Best to sample bits of each Doctor before starting the new one, with the understanding that the old series drags it feet in overextending storylines, while the new series, IMHO, rushes storylines far too quickly at times.
TOMB OF THE CYBERMEN, SPEARHEAD FROM SPACE (or TERROR OF THE AUTONS), THE DAEMONS, TALONS OF WENG-CHIANG, IMAGE OF THE FENDAHL, SEEDS OF DOOM, PYRAMIDS OF MARS.... oh, there are lots of fun ones to see. You should probably see some of the Gallifrey-centric episodes before diving into the new series, so the scope of the changes in the show during its hiatus/cancellation become apparent.
It should also be kept in mind that the show's origins as a children's TV show inform the series to this day. DR. WHO has a sense of whimsy, humor and adventure, even when scary, and is not a hard sf show and does not have a tone like, say, the original STAR TREK - many American SF fans didn;t like DR. WHO during its initial PBS wave simply because it was not what they wanted or expected out of "science fiction" (and they had no experience of the BBC's "characters/story over budget/effects" approach)
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Hmm, interesting.
(and yeah, my need to watch things in order might not work out in this case. Hehe)
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Rather than list lots of stories, I'll point out that the high point of the series is usually considered to be seasons 12 through 14 or 15. (Although I'd say 13-15, personally.) Wikipedia could tell you which stories take place during those seasons.)
So my recommendation would be to either try a little of each (I and others list plenty above), or to take a look at those "golden age" seasons.
Not that I necessarily want to discourage a straight watch-through; I love the classic series, from the very beginning to the very end. But I wanted to warn you of what that could entail.
ETA: the very first story, An Unearthly Child, features an unbelievably excellent standalone pilot, and an eye-bleedingly bad 3 parter in caveman era, packaged together as a 4-part story. So it might be worth watching the excellent pilot as a starting off point, then jumping ahead somewhat if that doesn't fill you with a desire to watch all 700 in order.
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i've just started rewatching the fourth doctor from the start (stirring up twenty year old memories). i think android invasion (http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/android+invasion) is a good one for a new viewer for the unusual reason that it's pretty much unexceptional.
it's four episodes that will give you a very good idea what doctor who is all about and doesn't really rely on any back history. the pyramids of mars (http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/mars+pyramids) was good too but it starts slower than androids (if you wind up watching it: yes, this is a faster moving doctor who episode). it's a hundred minutes to watch either of these story arcs and either one will give you solid impression of the old series and whether or not you want to watch more.
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i've just started rewatching the fourth doctor from the start (stirring up twenty year old memories). i think android invasion (http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/android+invasion) is a good one for a new viewer for the unusual reason that it's pretty much unexceptional.
it's four episodes that will give you a very good idea what doctor who is all about and doesn't really rely on any back history. the pyramids of mars (http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/mars+pyramids) was good too but it starts slower than androids (if you wind up watching it: yes, this is a faster moving doctor who episode). it's a hundred minutes to watch either of these story arcs and either one will give you solid impression of the old series and whether or not you want to watch more.
But anyone watching the Tom Baker (fourth Doctor) run from the beginning, should not let Robot put them off.
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But anyone watching the Tom Baker (fourth Doctor) run from the beginning, should not let Robot put them off.
Very true. For some reason, the Exec Producer and Script editor for the previous Doctor stayed around for the first story of the new Doctor's season, doing a by-the-numbers bit of drudgery. Then, the new guys came in to launch a great new direction. Terrible decision.
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I hate you guys. This thread made me curious enough that I started watching the first season of the new series. It is such camp and at times is really just bad. I'll probably end up watching the whole series and it's all your fault!
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I hate you guys. This thread made me curious enough that I started watching the first season of the new series. It is such camp and at times is really just bad.
That's part of its charm. (The severely low-budget special effects of the classic series even more so. :P)
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there's some gems in there, wait for episodes by Steven Moffat. he was always too good for a sit com (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupling_(UK_TV_series)), doctor who gave him a chance to cut loose.
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there's some gems in there, wait for episodes by Steven Moffat. he was always too good for a sit com (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupling_(UK_TV_series)), doctor who gave him a chance to cut loose.
Come on, I loved* Coupling. It was like Friends, only funny. :P
* the first three series, anyway. It wasn't the same after Jeff departed, and I didn't care much for the story arc of Susan's pregnancy. And the less said of the execrable US remake, the better.
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don't get me wrong, coupling is one of the few unanimated sitcoms i'll sit down to watch.
you can tell that there's strong writing behind it but it's constrained by the format. since there always had to be simple jokes and plot points (not really a bad thing) he wound up doing fantastic things with the structure or timeline. i remember one episode where the entire thing was split screened between two groups in different parts of the city. technically very difficult to get the timing right when one group calls the other, etc, and the format deftly highlighted a theme of the episode (which i now forget). it turned a relatively mundane sitcom plot line into something fresh and engaging.
once the sitcom constraints came off in doctor who he just does some truly memorable work. he's deservedly gotten awards. the girl in the fireplace and forest of the dead will be with me for a long time.
"hey, who turned out the lights?"
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i remember one episode where the entire thing was split screened between two groups in different parts of the city. technically very difficult to get the timing right when one group calls the other, etc, and the format deftly highlighted a theme of the episode (which i now forget).
It was the third series opener, "Split", which began with Susan breaking up with Steve, so the screen split at that moment.
The way that the two halves of the screen came back together at the end was brilliant ;D
All hail Vast Toffee MN! I can hardly wait for 2010 when he takes the wheel from Davies and makes Doctor Who his baby.
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"hey, who turned out the lights?"
Ack! That episode gave me the creeps, even though I loved it.
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I'd say to someone who is going to watch Doctor Who is that you have to be prepared for Daleks.
Daleks, Daleks, Daleks. They will keep on coming back. It won't matter what is done to them, or their planets, or ships or anything really as they keep coming back.
You will possibly even get to the stage where you are fed up of bloody Daleks (just ask Tom Baker) but that won't matter.
On and on and on (and on) they will go.
After the thousandth (it will feel like this) time they have "shockingly" returned, you will perhaps not even be that interested in whatever plan they have since a) it won't work and b) they will not actually be properly defeated afterwards anyway.
(To me) it's like some mad, not-very-good, carnival ride with clapped out clowns on it, it keeps just going round and round and round.
I mean, they (the Daleks) don't even have the space to change all that much as characters, since they have to keep returning as The Big Bad. And jump out from the shadows and go 'Boo!'.
Like any story with unkillable opponents or an invulnerable hero would be: B.o.r.i.n.g.
*ahem*
But overall it is well worth a watch.
And if you want an easier taste of what the series are about, you could try anything from Eccleston (after the 1987 haitus) onwards as the one-story-series was changed to be pretty much stand alone episodes.
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i'm up to six seasons of Tom Baker and it surprised me, only one episode of daleks so far. there's more coming, just not sure when. a lot has got muddled in my memory. i remember trying so hard to make sense of some of these episodes and now i realize they were just bad.
Rather than list lots of stories, I'll point out that the high point of the series is usually considered to be seasons 12 through 14 or 15. (Although I'd say 13-15, personally.) Wikipedia could tell you which stories take place during those seasons.)
i'm surprised the cut off is before the key of time season with Douglas Adams' work. there was a noticeable improvement after late season 15's hackney plots and steam-tunnel representation of gallifrey & the tardis.
tho i did like Leela. =) not as much as i did when i was eight but it was fun revisiting those memories.
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i'm up to six seasons of Tom Baker and it surprised me, only one episode of daleks so far. there's more coming, just not sure when.
The Daleks reappear immediately after the "Key to Time" series, in the first episode with Lalla Ward as Romana. It's the one where they're digging up Davros; I've forgotten the name of it ... "Resurrection" or "Revelation" or sumshit.
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Daleks, Daleks, Daleks. They will keep on coming back.
Putting aside that they are the quintessential DR. WHO villain, keep in mind that the BBC has to pay Terry Nation's heirs a buttload of money to use the daleks, so the lone appearance of a dalek in the new show ("Dalek") was an obvious precursor to their return in force, and then their re-return, because obviously the BBC is going to swing a monetary deal and then maximize their time window during which they get to use these quintessential bad guys.
Honestly, I'm not sure, but I'd bet you that we won't see the Daleks for quite a while now (or maybe the contract has one more usage up its sleeve)
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Daleks, Daleks, Daleks. They will keep on coming back.
Putting aside that they are the quintessential DR. WHO villain
The essence of a Dr Who villain is that they are, character-wise and plot-wise, devoid of anything other than "We are here to destroy you and everything else and we have an unstoppable plan to do it"/"Oh noes, we didn't get to carry out our plan. Again. And we have been totally stopped and wiped out (but not really totally stopped and wiped out)" ?
Funny sort of exemplar....
Honestly, I'm not sure, but I'd bet you that we won't see the Daleks for quite a while now
Aww, I remember when I was so naive. :P
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Well, I've been watching it since it arrived on U.S. shores in the late 70's, so naive I am not. I did actually build a case for why I'd state that.
As for the complexity of DR. WHO baddies - see earlier in the thread, it's all derived from a show to entertain children. Kind of like realizing that most BUFFY bad guys are just high-school era anxieties wrapped up in cod-Chris Claremenot plotting to make it entertaining for teens, it makes it hard not to see it afterwards once you know, but if you play along, it's fun (I guess. Actually, I have no stomach for BUFFY as I was too old when it hit and had read the same source material as Whedon).
I guess you can also say that as long as a mankind exhibits a tendency towards Nazi-like eugenics and ethnic cleansing, there are always going to be Dalek stories...
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cleansing, there are always going to be Dalek stories...
or cyberman stories.
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Well, I'd argue that as long as there's going to be gene tampering and technology body modification, there will be Cybermen stories...
(as long as there are going to be cheap BBC budgets, there'll probably ALWAYS be the chance for another Morbius story or Nimon story!)
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(as long as there are going to be cheap BBC budgets, there'll probably ALWAYS be the chance for another Morbius story or Nimon story!)
I think this goes more to the reason that the same villains always come back. Sure they have to pay the original creators of the Daleks and Cybermen every time they use them, but that's probably a shitload cheaper than creating something new and original that is just as threatening. It all just strikes me as budget restrictions.
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(as long as there are going to be cheap BBC budgets, there'll probably ALWAYS be the chance for another Morbius story or Nimon story!)
I think this goes more to the reason that the same villains always come back. Sure they have to pay the original creators of the Daleks and Cybermen every time they use them, but that's probably a shitload cheaper than creating something new and original that is just as threatening. It all just strikes me as budget restrictions.
From what I've heard, you're right. The BBC basically 'rent' the villains for a set period of time and have to use them as much as they can within that period. I have a vague memory of reading that the Dalek licence is up for renewal in 2011 so next year's season may be the last time we see them for a bit.
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I don't think it's true of all villains/characters, just some of the ones with savvier negotiatiors. (Although I do know that it was standard practice for the Virgin books to have all characters, including new companions, to be property of the authors, with Virgin having permission in perpetuity to use them.)
The Daleks have always been a special case. I would be surprised, for example, if they would actually have made a 4 second, non-plot critical cameo by the Macra in Gridlock had they needed to make a whole separate negotiation for them.
I do know that Moffat has said that one of the things he wants to do is focus more on new threats and less on returning (although he didn't name names.) I doubt that means NO returning characters, but hopefully we've seen at least the end of the period where the Daleks show up every single season, and starred in 3 out of 4 season finales.
I liked the balance from Tom Baker on, when each Doctor would have one or two run-ins with the Daleks and Cybermen. If only JNT had been so sparing with the Master.
Of course, down the line after Moffat, someone else will decide to go Dalek-happy again.
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I don't think it's true of all villains/characters, just some of the ones with savvier negotiatiors. (Although I do know that it was standard practice for the Virgin books to have all characters, including new companions, to be property of the authors, with Virgin having permission in perpetuity to use them.) The Daleks have always been a special case. I would be surprised, for example, if they would actually have made a 4 second, non-plot critical cameo by the Macra in Gridlock had they needed to make a whole separate negotiation for them. I do know that Moffat has said that one of the things he wants to do is focus more on new threats and less on returning (although he didn't name names.) I doubt that means NO returning characters, but hopefully we've seen at least the end of the period where the Daleks show up every single season, and starred in 3 out of 4 season finales. I liked the balance from Tom Baker on, when each Doctor would have one or two run-ins with the Daleks and Cybermen. If only JNT had been so sparing with the Master.
Actually, that's absolutely right on almost all counts. I did a little checking (my sister is friends with one of the writers on current WHO) and seemingly, how it worked was that distinctive menaces with distinctive designs (that is, someone had to come up with a lot of production work) are partly owned by their creators. So, off the top of my head, I'd guess the obvious ones (Daleks, Cybermen) and maybe some others (Ice Warriors, Yeti, Draconians maybe, Chumblies...that was a joke, son!). When the new series was a go, the BBC entered into negotiations with Terry Nation's estate and, instead of the usual "period contract", got a flat use fee (this was negotiated so close to production that the episode "Dalek" was jokingly referred to as "Absence Of The Daleks" in case the fee wasn't worked out in time) - which, I bet, paid Terry Nation's heirs very hansomely (and they only stand to benefit if the return was a hit, what with marketing fees for spin off toys, etc.).
But Moffat, as stated, wants to see about returning some new villains (I'm betting Ice Warriors and Daemons) and he finds the Daleks, to paraphrase, "a bit naff" - so yes, Dalek-less (or at least Dalek-Lite, now with less strontium) times are probably coming soon.
I'm hoping the new actor and show runner might mean a bit of a turn away from some of the "fan-service" that's gotten a bit out of control in the last season.