Escape Artists
Escape Pod => Science Fiction Discussion => Topic started by: Heradel on August 03, 2009, 04:21:29 PM
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I know the job's been scaling back my forum-spelunking, but how did you guys miss Children of Earth? Either I missed the thread or the British contingent needs to look sheepishly towards the floor upon reading this.
Spoilers ensue.
The series reminded me of a bit from George Carlin's wacky weatherman routine where he, clearly high, goes up to the weatherboard and says something along the lines of: "this evening, dark, getting darker" (Later research finds the actual quote to be quite a bit more boring and less apt (http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/762.html), the bit is also actually referred to as the hippy-dippy weatherman).
Torchwood was always somewhat of an odd beast as the adult version of Dr. Who, and got stereotyped early as Dr. Who with weird, kinky, poly sex in. The series then spent a lot of time walking that impression back and forward, and this (in the US a miniseries, for the UK just a slightly shorter series) seems to be setting it up for a darker reboot, since the BBC confirmed series 4 is a go. But god, it'll be hard to walk back from the dark place this one went.
I usually think gut-wrenching is a bit of an overused phrase when it comes to fiction not clearly based on reality, as the horrors of fiction don't really stack up next to the horrors of reality. But this one actually induced physically a wrenching gut in me, so I think it's justified. From the many deaths of Captain Jack, to Ianto's death, to finding out what the kids were being used for and the actions of MI5/6... things started out in Torchwood campy breed of near-future SF and just went black. Gwen's into the video camera monologue about when things go bad without the Doctor just really drove the point home - humans, sans the hero, are really not creatures one wants to be around when put against the grindstone.
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I know the job's been scaling back my forum-spelunking, but how did you guys miss Children of Earth?
I haven't seen it yet.
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Spoilers here, too.
We recorded it on our DVR and I watched it with the rest of my family, but while they sat on the couch and watched it, I sat at my desk (behind the couch) and just "sort of" watched it, not paying nearly as much attention. This was intentional, after the first half hour of the first night, since I felt it (1) wasn't worthy of my full attention, unlike other episodes, and (2) it was too depressing to watch. As a commenter on some review of it said, with Tosh and Owen gone at the end of the regular series, and now Ianto, and Jack transported off to some ship headed waaaay out of town, I'm not really interested in "Gwenwood" even with the baby and all. I don't like Rhys's character, and I wasn't real fond of Gwen's in this. We didn't delete the episodes, so I may go back and try again later, but talk about a disappointment. And it was followed by yet another: Dr. Who, Planet of the Dead. BBC America ran over, so I'm missing the last 5 minutes apparently, but this was another one I couldn't give my full attention to. If this is the trend, then I'll have more TV-free nights when the two series return.
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If this is the trend, then I'll have more TV-free nights when the two series return.
Do you really think Torchwood will return? There's no one left. I suppose they could bring Rhys, Gwen's former partner, and the too civil servants into Torchwood, but with it only being a 5 shot season etc., My guess is they are killing the series off. They killed off (removed) all but one (two if you count on Jack to return) the main characters. Captain Jack sounds like he can't face what he did here on earth. I think they ran out of ideas. It may return someday, but it will be unrecognizeable. And is it even needed since the world knows about aliens now?
Maybe if they did a whole new Torchwood. London had Torchwood 1, so could be a prequel, have the info on how Ianto came to leave etc. and Cardiff was Torchwood 3, so where was Torchwood 2? I just don't see the series returning as we knew it.
Shame, I missed Owen in Children of Earth. It sounds like most of the characters wanted out though. I think Owen and Captain Jack were my two favorites.
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Do you really think Torchwood will return?
I can't remember where I read it, and don't have time to do research, but yes, Torchwood has been picked up for the next season, and Captain Jack, Gwen and Rhys will be back. I'm not sure I'll watch anymore.
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Do you really think Torchwood will return?
I can't remember where I read it, and don't have time to do research, but yes, Torchwood has been picked up for the next season, and Captain Jack, Gwen and Rhys will be back. I'm not sure I'll watch anymore.
Was it official. I have seen that it was and that it hasn't been yet. That Davies said that he would be willing to do it if they wanted one. There is no mention of another season on the BBC site yet.
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This is the last thing I saw on it - He wants to, but hasn't gotten the pickup: http://www.fanbolt.com/headline/5017/Russell_T_Davies_Plans_The_Future_Of_'Torchwood'
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Finished watching the second DVD last night. Well, if it doesn't get picked up for another series, I'm OK with it. I'd like to see more Captain Jack Harkness, but at least they didn't go out cliffhanging us.
And that was some of the darkest, grimmest shit I've ever seen on TV.
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You know, I do want it back, because it's rarely been bad, and Children of Men really pushed the bounds of TV SF. Galactica got to similarly grim places, but it started out a lot lower so you expected it to.
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You know, I do want it back, because it's rarely been bad, and Children of Men really pushed the bounds of TV SF. Galactica got to similarly grim places, but it started out a lot lower so you expected it to.
Children of Earth you mean? I thot Children of Men was a theatrical film.
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Arg, yes. Though both the movie and the book for that one are also excellent, and grim.
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I thought about starting a thread here, but I was wiped out from arguing on other boards. :)
I thought it was brilliant. I think the first two seasons were very hit-or-miss, but season three was excellent. Probably the best thing RTD has written for any of the Who franchise (although other writers have topped it in the flagship series.)
Anyone who thinks RTD is a homophobe because of this series needs their head examined. No one in the history of television has done more for gay visibility that RTD. Period.
(Since a lot of people are saying they haven't seen it, I won't be more specific.)
I'm recommending it to people who watched previous seasons but didn't like it, or that people who've never seen the show start with it. It's pretty self-explanatory. I liken it to Buffy; season three is a good Buffy season, the first two a bad Buffy season: not terrible, worth watching, but on a whole different plane of existence from the good stuff.
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[...]
Anyone who thinks RTD is a homophobe because of this series needs their head examined. No one in the history of television has done more for gay visibility that RTD. Period.
[...]
He is also, unless my brain is crossing wires, gay himself.
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Very true. I think they're accusing him of internalized homophobia? Or repeating homophobic patterns without realizing it?
I lie. I don't think they're doing that at all. I think they're throwing around accusations of homophobia without bothering to think about it at all, because it's an easy, cheap shot, and like the race card, trying to defend yourself just makes you look worse.
UNLESS you've created Queer as Folk, Bob and Rose, Doctor Who, and Torchwood, in which case your record speaks for itself, and you don't have to defend yourself, really.
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Very true. I think they're accusing him of internalized homophobia? Or repeating homophobic patterns without realizing it?
I lie. I don't think they're doing that at all. I think they're throwing around accusations of homophobia without bothering to think about it at all, because it's an easy, cheap shot, and like the race card, trying to defend yourself just makes you look worse.
UNLESS you've created Queer as Folk, Bob and Rose, Doctor Who, and Torchwood, in which case your record speaks for itself, and you don't have to defend yourself, really.
RTD created Doctor Who? I didn't think he was that old. ;)
Who's accusing RTD of homophobia? I've never heard that charge leveled at him.
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Very true. I think they're accusing him of internalized homophobia? Or repeating homophobic patterns without realizing it?
I lie. I don't think they're doing that at all. I think they're throwing around accusations of homophobia without bothering to think about it at all, because it's an easy, cheap shot, and like the race card, trying to defend yourself just makes you look worse.
UNLESS you've created Queer as Folk, Bob and Rose, Doctor Who, and Torchwood, in which case your record speaks for itself, and you don't have to defend yourself, really.
RTD created Doctor Who? I didn't think he was that old. ;)
Who's accusing RTD of homophobia? I've never heard that charge leveled at him.
Neither have I, though you could argue that the only surviving relationship in the show is straight and Tosh had that lesbian fling that turned out badly in Season 1 (I think).
Hopefully people here are reality-based enough not to make that charge.
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RTD created Doctor Who? I didn't think he was that old. ;)
Who's accusing RTD of homophobia? I've never heard that charge leveled at him.
Okay, lumping Who in with his other accomplishments created a very strange sentence. But I suspect you knew what I meant. ;)
No one in this forum has. I've seen several people make the accusation in other fora. Those who have seen Children Of Earth can probably guess which scene inspired the accusation.
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I finished C of E last night - got it from NetFlix and thoroughly enjoyed it. If you get it from a mail service be sure to get both discs together, if possible, to lessen the frustration of a time gap while watching. I have recommended it to everyone I know who has any interest in SF or related themes. My impression is that Torchwood has become increasingly grown-up with each series. It started with the monster of the day and has progressed nicely. Ianto is the poster boy for the more general changes that have taken place. I was finally beginning to appreciate him. Now, Rhys... not yet cottened to that character.
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You know, I do want it back, because it's rarely been bad, and Children of Men really pushed the bounds of TV SF. Galactica got to similarly grim places, but it started out a lot lower so you expected it to.
Addendum: Just watch Dollhouse episode 13.
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Even though I thought CoE was RTD's best work yet, I'm not sure I want a fourth season. I'd only want it if it could maintain that high quality. If it's going to revert to "shagging monsters to death," I'd rather remember the series as CoE.
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And Torchwood wins another season (http://www.tvguidemagazine.com/news/torchwood-planning-fourth-season-3168.html).
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Oh Gods no. CoE was the first Torchwood story that was of any cop and allows them to go out on a high. If they bring them back we'll just have another season of stories where Jack is secretive for no or stupid reasons and Torchwood ruin a load of people's lives and fail to save the day. Quit while you're marginally less behind than you were!
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Part of me agrees that they should go out on a high. Still, I wouldn't have thought the series could be as good as season 3, so maybe he'll surprise me and do it twice. So I'll give it a view, but with reservations.
I stopped watching Sarah Jane, so I've finally broken the "must watch all Who" feeling I've had since the 80s.
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Oh Gods no. CoE was the first Torchwood story that was of any cop and allows them to go out on a high. If they bring them back we'll just have another season of stories where Jack is secretive for no or stupid reasons and Torchwood ruin a load of people's lives and fail to save the day. Quit while you're marginally less behind than you were!
Someone will have to confirm I have the British(?) right here and cop in this case means good — the Season preceding this one was pretty good, but it was about as sanguinary at the end as CoE was. I think there's a lot of Captain Jack territory to be explored still, and with Davies ending his run of Who I think the next season will be good, though probably not happy.
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cop does indeed mean good, something which the first two seasons of Torchwood were definitely not. Doctor Who is supposed to be a show for children and Torchwood is supposed to be a more mature show and yet DW often beats it hands down for emotion and drama. Name me one moment in Torchwood that is as emotional as when Jackie and Pete are 're'-united in Doomsday or as exciting as The Sound of Drums. Shoddy and juvenile all the way through until RTD steps in to show people how drama should be done in CoE.
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Continuing in the resurrection of old threads tradition, SFX over in the UK says that Fox is asking the BBC to develop a US version of Torchwood with Davies attached: http://www.sfx.co.uk/page/sfx?entry=fox_developing_a_us_version (which I saw via one of Alasdair's tweets). I would be optimistic, but it's Fox and this really smells to me of Whedon syndrome. That said, Davies usually writes short series anyway, so a 13-episode US run would still be a very, very nice thing to have.
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Interestingly, this comes a couple of days after a rumour that Davies was in the process of developing a US set Torchwood special which would apparently feature Nathan Fillion as another Time Agent.
I'll just give that one a moment to sink in.
Everyone back? Jolly good.
IF that's on the cards then sign me the hell up. Seriously. Fillion, who rumour also has it was one of the contenders for the 11th Doctor would fit like a...thing...that fits really well.
I think the thing that really interests me about Torchwood US though is the fact that the very concept suggests we have to get further information about the organisation. I always found it deeply irritating that Torchwood had such a huge remit and such a tiny pool of personnel after the loss of Canary Wharf and it's something some of the later support material has discussed. There's a good radio play for example which involves Torchwood Delhi and the fact it's not actually changed since Jack was there decades previously. Similarly, one of the other radio plays establishes that in the future Torchwood are both public (And to be honest I can't really see how they couldn't be after Children of Earth) and nation wide. So, a US office makes a lot of sense.
It also puts me in mind of the Gotham City Office of Planetary in Planetary/Batman which, in turn, leads me to the line 'You like him don't you? He's your special Bat friend.'
But that's just me.
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I would almost rather Fillion not talk part in a Torchwood US so he could still be the 12th doctor (no offense to 11, not trying to get him killed off quicker than 9).
I don't know, I have trouble getting that excited over Fox shows, because it's Fox and they've killed too many good things. If it were Showtime or HBO or even SciFi it would be so much easier to be excited.
The lack of the meta-Torchwood org in the main Torchwood series also always bothered me. It almost seemed like they'd been entirely superseded by UNIT after Canary Wharf, which I guess makes sense because that was supposedly UN-based instead of the single-state based Torchwood (which always struck me as more of an MI. X with an intelligence agency-style overseas offices). For all intents and purposes it seemed like Jack was the top worldwide Torchwood officer (and Cardiff the last real office) by the time that Torchwood the series picks up (he has to have the greatest seniority).
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Continuing in the resurrection of old threads tradition, SFX over in the UK says that Fox is asking the BBC to develop a US version of Torchwood with Davies attached: http://www.sfx.co.uk/page/sfx?entry=fox_developing_a_us_version (which I saw via one of Alasdair's tweets). I would be optimistic, but it's Fox and this really smells to me of Whedon syndrome. That said, Davies usually writes short series anyway, so a 13-episode US run would still be a very, very nice thing to have.
I'm pessimistic, but not because it's FOX... rather because US versions of British shows have almost without exception been shit (The Office being the only contrary example that comes to mind). Anybody else see the disaster that was American Coupling?
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Continuing in the resurrection of old threads tradition, SFX over in the UK says that Fox is asking the BBC to develop a US version of Torchwood with Davies attached: http://www.sfx.co.uk/page/sfx?entry=fox_developing_a_us_version (which I saw via one of Alasdair's tweets). I would be optimistic, but it's Fox and this really smells to me of Whedon syndrome. That said, Davies usually writes short series anyway, so a 13-episode US run would still be a very, very nice thing to have.
I'm pessimistic, but not because it's FOX... rather because US versions of British shows have almost without exception been shit (The Office being the only contrary example that comes to mind[/i]). Anybody else see the disaster that was American Coupling?
Which is why it's important that it's Davies writing/producing it. The other shows have consistently just grabbed the concept instead of the writers, and been the worse for it.
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I'm pessimistic, but not because it's FOX... rather because US versions of British shows have almost without exception been shit (The Office being the only contrary example that comes to mind). Anybody else see the disaster that was American Coupling?
Which is why it's important that it's Davies writing/producing it. The other shows have consistently just grabbed the concept instead of the writers, and been the worse for it.
Coupling's first two or three episodes used the same scripts from the British original, with minimal changes -- so they were essentially written by Steven Moffatt -- and they still sucked like few shows have sucked before. When they tried doing original stories it got even worse, and rightful cancellation soon followed.
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And an American version of Torchwood has been saved from Fox: http://io9.com/5521310/fox-kills-the-torchwood-revamp-not-surprisingly
That said, they're apparently still shopping it to US networks (calling HBO and Showtime), which seems odd. I mean, I get that it's a recession, and that the show can't be that cheap to produce, but it seemed popular from enough from my American vantage (though, if I'm remembering correctly, Sarah Jane is a partnership with the CBC). The BBC rep also rules out having an American Doctor Who, which just seems jingoistic against all the perfectly decent American actors.
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On a related note, apparently one of the names on the very short list for the 11th Doctor was Nathan Fillion. Take that as you will but he could have been an interesting choice.
Regarding Torchwood US, reading between the lines, I suspect the ongoing problems with it may be why Torchwood is in limbo at the moment. A little while ago BBC Wales announced their slate of ongoing drama and whilst Doctor Who and The Sarah Jane Adventures were on it, Torchwood wasn't. Personally, I hope the US version takes off because done right, as it clearly was in Children of Earth and chunks of season two, it's a great show.
It'd also be possible to do the same sort of thing Primeval was, and as far as I know, is still planning with foreign remakes. Namely, it's not a remake, it happens in the same time and universe as the core show, just in a different country. In fact, one of the things Torchwood has always desperately needed, to me anyway, is some form of internal connectivity, and having a reference to the Torchwood US office, and Jack flitting between the two, would be interesting to see.
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And an American version of Torchwood has been saved from Fox: http://io9.com/5521310/fox-kills-the-torchwood-revamp-not-surprisingly
That said, they're apparently still shopping it to US networks (calling HBO and Showtime), which seems odd. I mean, I get that it's a recession, and that the show can't be that cheap to produce, but it seemed popular from enough from my American vantage (though, if I'm remembering correctly, Sarah Jane is a partnership with the CBC). The BBC rep also rules out having an American Doctor Who, which just seems jingoistic against all the perfectly decent American actors.
They tried having an American Doctor Who in 1996 with Paul McGann.
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On a related note, apparently one of the names on the very short list for the 11th Doctor was Nathan Fillion. Take that as you will but he could have been an interesting choice.
Regarding Torchwood US, reading between the lines, I suspect the ongoing problems with it may be why Torchwood is in limbo at the moment. A little while ago BBC Wales announced their slate of ongoing drama and whilst Doctor Who and The Sarah Jane Adventures were on it, Torchwood wasn't. Personally, I hope the US version takes off because done right, as it clearly was in Children of Earth and chunks of season two, it's a great show.
It'd also be possible to do the same sort of thing Primeval was, and as far as I know, is still planning with foreign remakes. Namely, it's not a remake, it happens in the same time and universe as the core show, just in a different country. In fact, one of the things Torchwood has always desperately needed, to me anyway, is some form of internal connectivity, and having a reference to the Torchwood US office, and Jack flitting between the two, would be interesting to see.
I actually think I knew about Fillion being on the list and just forgot about it when I was trying to make a joke about an American Doctor (honestly, someone can probably pull up a post here where I'm talking about it. I think I said something about him being a more kinetic choice for Doctor, which I guess is true if it's Firefly-Fillion, but not really if it's Castle-Fillion). Which I actually think would make sense (he's obviously pretty flipped about during regenerations, and having the accent change isn't as weird as someone going into a coma and waking up speaking fluent German), but has a low chance of happening because, well, it's the British Broadcasting Company. Which is fine — there was never a British Captain of the Enterprise.
I was watching back through some of the Tennant Doctor Who, and Jack says explicitly when he hops a ride to the end of the universe that he's recreated Torchwood to be a good organization, and pretty much only that outpost in Cardiff. So either an American Torchwood is him trying to put things back together over here (because, well, the character's American and going home), or we're seeing some sort of Torchwood/UNIT spinoff project over here. I mean, Torchwood is clearly a British agency somewhere alongside the MI system, so I'd have to imagine it being like a CIA station in London, or an MI6 one in New York. If you're looking for an international agency on defending the Earth, well, that's UNIT. I guess it could be argued that the US/UK special relationship is such that a bilateral agency isn't outside the realm of possibility, but it doesn't seem greatly likely.
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I actually think I knew about Fillion being on the list and just forgot about it when I was trying to make a joke about an American Doctor (honestly, someone can probably pull up a post here where I'm talking about it. I think I said something about him being a more kinetic choice for Doctor, which I guess is true if it's Firefly-Fillion, but not really if it's Castle-Fillion). Which I actually think would make sense (he's obviously pretty flipped about during regenerations, and having the accent change isn't as weird as someone going into a coma and waking up speaking fluent German), but has a low chance of happening because, well, it's the British Broadcasting Company. Which is fine — there was never a British Captain of the Enterprise.
Patrick Stewart isn't British? ???
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I actually think I knew about Fillion being on the list and just forgot about it when I was trying to make a joke about an American Doctor (honestly, someone can probably pull up a post here where I'm talking about it. I think I said something about him being a more kinetic choice for Doctor, which I guess is true if it's Firefly-Fillion, but not really if it's Castle-Fillion). Which I actually think would make sense (he's obviously pretty flipped about during regenerations, and having the accent change isn't as weird as someone going into a coma and waking up speaking fluent German), but has a low chance of happening because, well, it's the British Broadcasting Company. Which is fine — there was never a British Captain of the Enterprise.
Patrick Stewart isn't British? ???
Picard was French.
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... there was never a British Captain of the Enterprise.
Patrick Stewart isn't British? ???
Picard was French.
But you seemed to be implying the point that because Star Trek is an American program, the Captain of the Enterprise has always been American, just as The Doctor has always been (read: appeared to be) British. If not, then what do you mean by "there was never a British Captain of the Enterprise"?
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And coming back in this thread to post that Season Four of Torchwood is a go (http://www.tor.com/blogs/2010/06/starz-and-bbc-join-forces-to-drag-capt-jack-back-to-earth), though not until 2011. Though Starz is probably a good fit as they don't mind nudity (Looking at you Spartacus).
Anyway, having now seen that I somehow missed StePH's reply months ago, apologies, and my main point is that the Doctor is very much a British character even though he's nominally from Gallifrey, and that similar to US series (the Stargates would probably be a decent example) they tend to put people of their nationalities in their title roles. Not always, but often enough, though Film is a bit of a different world.
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Anyway, having now seen that I somehow missed StePH's reply months ago, apologies, and my main point is that the Doctor is very much a British character even though he's nominally from Gallifrey, and that similar to US series (the Stargates would probably be a decent example) they tend to put people of their nationalities in their title roles. Not always, but often enough, though Film is a bit of a different world.
Excep that on Stargate many of the main characters are, in fact, Canadian. Soooo.
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Anyway, having now seen that I somehow missed StePH's reply months ago, apologies, and my main point is that the Doctor is very much a British character even though he's nominally from Gallifrey, and that similar to US series (the Stargates would probably be a decent example) they tend to put people of their nationalities in their title roles. Not always, but often enough, though Film is a bit of a different world.
Excep that on Stargate many of the main characters are, in fact, Canadian. Soooo.
Well, Rodney is. SG-1-the-fictional-characters are all-American, apart from Teal'c*. Obviously the series is filmed in Vancouver and in Atlantis they made the expeditionary force fairly multi-national, but I think they're back to mostly-or-all Americans in Universe's main cast (I seem to remember something about Rush being Scottish, or his father being Scottish, or something).
*Forehead Alien.
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Rush is Scottish yeah aaaaand that's literally it. Which is a shame as the multi-national task force on Atlantis (German marine! He's from Germany!) was one of my favorite bits.