Escape Artists

The Lounge at the End of the Universe => Gallimaufry => Topic started by: Gary on February 04, 2007, 09:52:15 PM

Title: What IS a robot?
Post by: Gary on February 04, 2007, 09:52:15 PM: A 7 year old just ask me if there were any robots in the house.

Before I could answer, a 5 year old responded "No, we'd see them walking around."

For some reason I felt it necessary to open the can of worms and say "Not all robots move around."

7 year old, "Aren't there really big robots in factories that just stay in one place and build things?"

Me, "Yes, but not all robots look like that. Not all robots have arms or heads. A robot is an electrically powered, mechanical thing that you can give some instructions to and it will do those things for you."

7 year old "Is the TiVo a robot then?"

Me, "Well, I guess it ..."

7 year old, "How about the Microwave oven. Is it a robot?"
5 year old, "Am I a robot?"

Me, " Um, I'm going to go ask some people who might know that. I'll be right back."

So here I am.
Wikipedia describes a robot thus - "A robot is an electro-mechanical or bio-mechanical device or group of devices that can perform autonomous or preprogrammed tasks"

Is my microwave oven a robot? I preprogram it to cook food.

If the 5 year old finally learns her programming and flushes the toilet (hey, it COULD happen), is she a robot?

What IS a robot?
Title: Re: What IS a robot?
Post by: Russell Nash on February 05, 2007, 08:30:32 AM: Wow I just saw the security droid in front of the bank blowing up.

I say the microwave and such are out because they don't have moving parts and you need to reset it for each cooking. The kids are out because they are mostly non-mechanical and are harder to program.

It is an interetsing line though. I used to program and operate CNC grinding machines. With an auto-loader the things could run autonomously for weeks without any more help than keeping the loader full and emptying the finished "tray". We never would have considered them robots, eventhough the UPS guy and others passing through the shop would always stop and marvel at their independent actions.
Title: Re: What IS a robot?
Post by: Thaurismunths on February 05, 2007, 02:30:13 PM: I think a basic component of being a "robot" is movement. A fully aware AI in a box able to turn on lights and balance your checkbook is not a robot, but a preprogrammed or remote controlled manipulating arm is.
Title: Re: What IS a robot?
Post by: oddpod on February 05, 2007, 06:06:07 PM: thows kind of conversashons are one of the best things about having kids.
thay never stop(well mine havent yet) making you chalenge idears you thort wher in the bag.
Title: Re: What IS a robot?
Post by: Gary on February 06, 2007, 01:16:46 AM: Thanks for the ideas! :)

It is fun to ponder.
I guess I'll go with the "Ability to move" idea as the test. I've been trying to think of something that is pretty uniformly recognized as a robot, that doesn't move and I haven't thought of any examples.

As to whether WE are robots, I like the fact that we fit the "runs on electricity" criteria and that we do in a sense contain mechanical components (although most of those parts aren't "man-made"). I guess the big difference is our ability to change our own programing at will.

I still haven't decided about the microwave oven. It has a tray that actually rotates the food so it does move, it just moves internally.

hmmmmmm
Title: Re: What IS a robot?
Post by: Thaurismunths on February 06, 2007, 03:24:09 AM: Perhaps, just to keep us all from getting branded as robots, you can use that ever popular "Free Will" criteria. That should hold up for another couple decades at least.

The microwave rotates, so do drills and garbage disposals. Perhaps that should be upgraded to "multi-axial movement", or able to move along two or more of axes (up/down, in/out, left/right)? I know that puts humans in, but it keeps appliances out.

If your kids keep asking too much tell them tell them that robots can be plugged in to a wall, and if they want to know if they're robots they should grab a fork from the kitchen. :o
(no offence intended)
Title: Re: What IS a robot?
Post by: Bdoomed on February 06, 2007, 04:00:57 AM: this is by far one of the coolest threads ever.

i wouldn't group humans into the picture, I would think a robot as being man-made, and i dont mean reproduced, i mean made by the hands and tools of people. The microwave is a tough one. you can tell it to cook for a minute and it will, it is pre-programmed to do so...

anyways i gotta go for now but i'll continue this later hehe.
Title: Re: What IS a robot?
Post by: Heradel on February 06, 2007, 06:36:44 AM: A robot is pornography. I can't quite define it, but I know it when I see it.

But since this is, uh, geared toward a 7-year-olds' definition, a robot is... uh, a... huh... er... well... A robot is kind of like a very stupid human, that can only do what it's told and can't think for itself. A microwave is far too simple to be a robot, but a dog is far too complex to be a robot.
Title: Re: What IS a robot?
Post by: oddpod on February 06, 2007, 09:12:00 AM: OK ,
i think we are making progress hear ,
so we 7 year olds cant be robots because they aren't made with tools (what bout clone 7 year olds?)

but we are still a bit fuzzy on the Technical difference betwean a microwave and a robot
how complex dose something have to be to be a robot?

can any one remember what the acronim robot stands for?
Title: Re: What IS a robot?
Post by: Russell Nash on February 06, 2007, 11:09:14 AM: Quote from: Thaurismunths on February 06, 2007, 03:24:09 AM
Perhaps that should be upgraded to "multi-axial movement", or able to move along two or more of axes (up/down, in/out, left/right)? I know that puts humans in, but it keeps appliances out.

Back to my CNC machines. They were five axis machines x,y,z,a,b. a is rotating around x and b is rotating around y and this doesn't even count that the grinding spindle itself rotated around the z axis.

And these were never considered robots
Title: Re: What IS a robot?
Post by: Russell Nash on February 06, 2007, 11:19:12 AM: Quote from: Bdoomed on February 06, 2007, 04:00:57 AM
i wouldn't group humans into the picture, I would think a robot as being man-made, and i dont mean reproduced, i mean made by the hands and tools of people.

What about when robots are used to make robots??
Title: Re: What IS a robot?
Post by: Thaurismunths on February 06, 2007, 11:43:41 AM: Ok, I got a good one. I picked it off an "Introduction to Robotics" site.
"Most true robots have sensors that allow them to detect details of their environment, and change their behavior accordingly."

http://www.mines.edu/fs_home/jsteele/400/web/Definitions/RobotDefinitions.html
Title: Re: What IS a robot?
Post by: Gary on February 06, 2007, 12:41:52 PM: Yikes ... the problem there is that my microwave oven has a temperature probe accessory.
I've never used it but it is a sensor that allows the microwave to detect the foods temperature and adjust it's operation to some sort of preset instructions.

On the CNC equipment ... I'm really having to lean toward calling that a robot! After all, they call those single arm contraptions, that put cars together on assembly lines, "robots" and all they do is a single programed function over and over again.

:-\ I shouldn't be trying to think about this before I've had my coffee.
Title: Re: What IS a robot?
Post by: Thaurismunths on February 06, 2007, 01:20:08 PM: How about "multiple sensors"?

And to put a thicker wedge between 'us' and 'them,' how about non-self repairing? We can heal ourselves, robots and machines can not.
Title: Re: What IS a robot?
Post by: Russell Nash on February 06, 2007, 02:14:46 PM: Quote from: Thaurismunths on February 06, 2007, 01:20:08 PM
How about "multiple sensors"?

And to put a thicker wedge between 'us' and 'them,' how about non-self repairing? We can heal ourselves, robots and machines can not.

Not yet
Title: Re: What IS a robot?
Post by: Reap3r on February 06, 2007, 04:19:36 PM: Quote from: oddpod on February 06, 2007, 09:12:00 AM
can any one remember what the acronim robot stands for?

Quote from: Wikipedia
The word comes from the Czech word robota, compulsory labour or work (also used in a sense of a serf), first used by Karel Čapek in his science fiction play R.U.R. (Rossum's Universal Robots) in 1921, and according to Čapek, was coined by his brother, painter Josef Čapek (see also etymology of robot). The word was brought into popular Western use by famous science fiction writer Isaac Asimov
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot)
Title: Re: What IS a robot?
Post by: Gary on February 06, 2007, 04:51:16 PM: Where is Asimov when we need him! ;D
Title: Re: What IS a robot?
Post by: Bdoomed on February 06, 2007, 10:30:11 PM: Quote from: Russell Nash on February 06, 2007, 11:19:12 AM
Quote from: Bdoomed on February 06, 2007, 04:00:57 AM
i wouldn't group humans into the picture, I would think a robot as being man-made, and i dont mean reproduced, i mean made by the hands and tools of people.

What about when robots are used to make robots??

good point... i guess i clarified myself too much... you know what i mean.... jeez...

and when robots aquire self-regeneration, we're all doomed.
Quote from: Thaurismunths on February 06, 2007, 11:43:41 AM
Ok, I got a good one. I picked it off an "Introduction to Robotics" site.
"Most true robots have sensors that allow them to detect details of their environment, and change their behavior accordingly."

http://www.mines.edu/fs_home/jsteele/400/web/Definitions/RobotDefinitions.html
not all robots have sensors tho. I made a robot back in the day at robot camp or whatever it was called, and all it did was walk. No environmental response.

How about, a robot is a thing that when people see it they think "robot"... although that does not explain it to a 7-year-old, they'll understand when they get older.

If we categorize robots as things that can be preprogrammed, then computers certainly are robots... they even respond to the environment (digital environment but environment all the same)

oop... i got to go again :P!
Title: Re: What IS a robot?
Post by: Jim on February 06, 2007, 11:21:00 PM: What, do I have to be the one to point out that the Marketing Division of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation defines a robot as "Your Plastic Pal Who's Fun to Be With"?
Title: Re: What IS a robot?
Post by: Gary on February 07, 2007, 12:00:14 AM: Quote from: Jim on February 06, 2007, 11:21:00 PM
What, do I have to be the one to point out that the Marketing Division of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation defines a robot as "Your Plastic Pal Who's Fun to Be With"?
LOL
If I hadn't misplaced my towel I might have remembered that!

BTW: "Your Plastic Pal Who's Fun to Be With" ... sounds like an "OhMibod". I don't even want to know if THAT is a robot!
Title: Re: What IS a robot?
Post by: Bdoomed on February 07, 2007, 03:16:42 AM: Quote from: Jim on February 06, 2007, 11:21:00 PM
What, do I have to be the one to point out that the Marketing Division of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation defines a robot as "Your Plastic Pal Who's Fun to Be With"?
LMAO i love you. thats the greatest book, hands down.
i think the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation has the best definition.
Title: Re: What IS a robot?
Post by: oddpod on February 07, 2007, 06:43:44 PM: lol, sounds good to me
i will have to go luck up the encyclopedia galactic definition now
Title: Re: What IS a robot?
Post by: oddpod on February 07, 2007, 06:47:00 PM: The Encyclopedia Galactica defines a robot as a mechanical apparatus designed to do the work of a man
Title: Re: What IS a robot?
Post by: Gary on February 08, 2007, 02:25:00 PM: OK then. I'm willing to accept an entry in a fictional book quoted in an inaccurately named "trilogy".

So, working from there we find in wikipedia that "work" does not include the transference of "heat" energy since there is no macroscopically measurable force, only microscopic forces occurring in atomic collisions.

So as far as being a robot, the microwave oven is right out!

It still doesn't discount the 5 year old as being a robot. Though it has yet to be proven, it is technically feasible that this child could do the "work" of a human. :-\
I guess it could come down to;
"What constitutes a mechanical apparatus?"
and "What constitutes 'programing'?"

BTW: I have now discovered that there is an International Standard (ISO 8373) that defines a robot as -

"An automatically controlled, reprogrammable, multipurpose, manipulator programmable in three or more axes, which may be either fixed in place or mobile for use in industrial automation applications."

I couldn't consider this THE definition of a robot though, as it specifically says "for use in industrial automation applications" and there are quite a few "robots" available that are NOT for industrial automation.

Heck, according to ISO 8373 non of the "bots' used in "Battlebots" would be considered Robots because they aren't "programed"
Title: Re: What IS a robot?
Post by: ClintMemo on February 13, 2007, 11:31:53 PM: Quote from: Gary on February 08, 2007, 02:25:00 PM
BTW: I have now discovered that there is an International Standard (ISO 8373) that defines a robot as -

"An automatically controlled, reprogrammable, multipurpose, manipulator programmable in three or more axes, which may be either fixed in place or mobile for use in industrial automation applications."

I think the multi-purpose aspect is important. IIRC, those industrial robots can be reprogrammed to do a variety of different tasks. I saw a story a few years ago about someone turning one into a roller coaster simulator. It was just a big moving arm with a passenger compartment on the end.

Quote from: Gary on February 08, 2007, 02:25:00 PM

Heck, according to ISO 8373 non of the "bots' used in "Battlebots" would be considered Robots because they aren't "programed"

I always thought of "Battlebots" as 21st century cock-fighting.
Title: Re: What IS a robot?
Post by: wakela on February 20, 2007, 11:59:50 PM: I work at a factory in Japan that makes car parts. So there is a room full of actual, no-foolin, robots about 200 feet from me right now. Industrially speaking, "robot" is a very specific term, as the ISO definition indicates. The big arm that moves around a part and spot welds it is a called a "robot". It would be called a "robot" by a lawyer. There is another machine that you put a block of steel in, and an electrically charged wire cuts the steel in a pre-programmed shape. We do not call this thing a robot, even though it also gets its commands from a computer and does work for us. It just has a different name. For non-industry people, though, I think it would be a robot.

Quote
So, working from there we find in wikipedia that "work" does not include the transference of "heat" energy since there is no macroscopically measurable force, only microscopic forces occurring in atomic collisions.

Quote
So as far as being a robot, the microwave oven is right out!
Many of the robots in my factory weld, which is not much different than cooking steel.

I think the West has largely given up on making humanoid robots, but the Japanese are still gangbusters. They want to make robots to help the elderly. These would be the robots that we've been dreaming about all these years. Many of them can walk (to use stairs), get stuff from the fridge, respond to voice commands, navigate their environment, and recognize their owners. Not only that, they need to be cute so that old people will want to use them (And Japanese people just love cute stuff).

Toshiba has some stuff (http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2005_05/pr2001.htm)in the works. Doesn't get much cuter than this.

Looks like Sony has disconinued the Aibo (http://www.sony.net/Products/aibo/index.html)robot dog, though. It was trained to follow a pink ball. I read that one owner had a red wall that had faded to pink in the sun, and his Aibo would sit and stare at it all day.

Misc Japanese robots here (http://japundit.com/archives/category/robots/). Scroll down for the article on the "Uncanny Valley." Then keep scrolling to the article called "Hello Sailor." ::)

These (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GG-1AVehDiE)are some welding robots from the factory where I work. After the above link, this may be dissapointing, but I couldn't resist.
Title: Re: What IS a robot?
Post by: Planish on March 16, 2007, 05:34:05 AM: Quote from: oddpod on February 07, 2007, 06:47:00 PM
The Encyclopedia Galactica defines a robot as a mechanical apparatus designed to do the work of a man
That works best for me. Microwave ovens aren't robots because humans can't cook stuff (unless you have heat vision or can combust spontaneously). Web bots are robots in the sense that a human could do the same work, but they'd take much longer and would get really bored.

Things like ROVs and Battlebots might more properly be called glorified waldos.
Title: Re: What IS a robot?
Post by: Jim on March 21, 2007, 12:50:58 PM: The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy defines the marketing division of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation as "...a bunch of mindless jerks who will be first against the wall when the revolution comes."
Title: Re: What IS a robot?
Post by: Russell Nash on March 21, 2007, 01:03:44 PM: Quote from: Jim on March 21, 2007, 12:50:58 PM
The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy defines the marketing division of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation as "...a bunch of mindless jerks who will be first against the wall when the revolution comes."

There are so many different groups destined to be the first against "The Wall" when the revolution begins. I think the revolution is going to end very quickly in a huge traffic jam on the way to "The Wall".
Title: Re: What IS a robot?
Post by: Mfitz on March 21, 2007, 03:29:58 PM: Can I steal that line some day?
Title: Re: What IS a robot?
Post by: ClintMemo on March 21, 2007, 03:57:15 PM: What we really need is a secret new continent. All those people who need to be sent to the wall can just stay and the rest of us can sneak off to "Emptyartica" and start anew with out them.
Title: Re: What IS a robot?
Post by: Russell Nash on March 21, 2007, 09:38:55 PM: Quote from: Mfitz on March 21, 2007, 03:29:58 PM
Can I steal that line some day?

Huh? Are you talking about my line?? Feel free, if you are. Give credit, if you remember to.
Title: Re: What IS a robot?
Post by: Thaurismunths on March 22, 2007, 11:08:10 AM: A bit of ear candy/input for this thread:

Talk of the Nation, March 21, 2007 · Science fiction and pop culture have conspired to make most of us think of robots as something out of Terminator or I, Robot.

But after six years of behind-the-scenes reporting from the Robotics Institute at Carnegie Mellon University, Lee Gutkind knows better.

Gutkind, the founder and editor of the literary journal Creative Nonfiction, examines the subculture surrounding these mechanical creatures in a new book, Almost Human: Making Robots Think.

He found that today's robots are more fun than ferocious, and scientists are making wires and chips increasingly human-like.

Gutkind talks with Neal Conan about the sensitive side of robots

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9040923
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