Escape Artists
Escape Pod => Episode Comments => Topic started by: Swamp on September 16, 2010, 08:54:09 PM
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EP258: Raising Jenny (http://escapepod.org/2010/09/16/ep258-raising-jenny/)
By Janni Lee Simner (http://www.simner.com/)
Read by Mur Lafferty (http://murverse.com/)
First appeared in the anthology Not Of Woman Born.
“I know I can’t do anything about this–” she gestured toward the tangled blankets, the hospital bed, the pale walls. “But I’ve asked the doctors to take some cells–I still have a few healthy ones left, you know, and they’ll keep for some time–”
I could guess the rest. But Susan, ever the biologist, had her lecture after all. “It doesn’t work like that.” Her voice was gentle, as if she were speaking to one of her two sons, not to Mom. “A clone isn’t the same as the original. Your clone would be no more like you than–than one identical twin is like another. It wouldn’t be–” Susan’s voice caught. “It wouldn’t be you.”
“You don’t know,” Mom said. “None of the clones are old enough to ask yet. They’re just babies.”
Rated PG Not for kids, but nothing to worry about if you listen around the kids.
Show Notes:
- Congrats on the Hugo winners (http://www.thehugoawards.org/2010/09/2010-hugo-award-winners/) and the Parsec winners! (http://parsecawards.com/2010winners)
- We announce the winners of the flash contest.
- Feedback for Episode 250: Eros, Philia, Agape.
(http://escapepod.org/wp-images/podcast-mini4.gif)
Listen to this week’s Escape Pod! (http://c1.libsyn.com/media/18601/EP258_RaisingJenny.mp3?nvb=20100916204018&nva=20100917205018&sid=3eac60c5c541427607909ea11a6bf146&l_sid=18601&l_eid=&l_mid=2049941&t=05c788704967689155377)
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I completely agree with the host on her "It's a Wonderful Life" comments.
Really, that's all I cam here to post, but I'm going to draw this out by adding another sentence.
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Great story. I guess there will never be a future without generational conflicts. Every child should have the chance to find its own way.
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I really liked this story, and a nice reading also!
The story, and some of Mur's comments, reminded me of one of my favourite poems:
SOMETIMES A MAN STANDS UP DURING SUPPER
Sometimes a man stands up during supper
and walks outdoors, and keeps on walking,
because of a church that stands somewhere in the East.
And his children say blessings on him as if he were dead.
And another man, who remains inside his own house,
dies there, inside the dishes and in the glasses,
so that his children have to go far out into the world
toward that same church, which he forgot.
Rainer Maria Rilke
translated by Robert Bly
Religious overtones aside, this poem summarizes for me this dilemma that staying at home
"for the children's sake" can sometimes actually harm them more than it helps.
Maybe what they need is an example of a person fulfilling their full potential,
rather than constant chatter about how this is possible. I wonder if the absent (grand-)father left
because (grand-)mother Jenny wasn't allowing him room enough to find his own fulfillment, just as she did later
to her daughter. We can't really be fully there for our children if we aren't fully realized ourselves.
To that end, we must leave sometimes, put family on hold, and seek to accomplish something out
of the home, in the wider world.
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I'm with Mur.
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I hate the idea of parents holding their kids back based on the fact that they are so fricken needy. It to me a while to realize that my mom was not prepared for my move to college. She said she was happy to get rid of me but she continually calls me checking up on me like I am still 16. but like my biology teacher said, "Parents will always treat you like you are 16" Plus three is the whole twist on Jenny being a clone of her grandmother basically. Very bizarre!!!
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Well...is it that Jennifer's desire to settle down is because of her grandmother's genes or is it a reaction to what she perceives as her mother's need to push her away and into the world? Its that whole nature vs. nuture thing again.
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This story alternately creeped me out and/or depressed me. The whole "one of my daughters must give birth to my clone!" thing almost felt incestuous to me.. just a big "ick" factor. Then there was the fact that Mom ruined Adrienne's life - twice. First by keeping her from her dreams after the accident, and then when she winds up shackled with the kid, she's again prevented from ever doing what she wants to do. That's just depressing.
I need to go look at pictures of puppies or something. This seemed to be a very unhappy story.
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Forget that, a redownload worked fine.
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The "sci-fi" layers of this story are thin and only set the stage for the rest of the story, without being a crutch or getting in the way. This story was excellent. Once you stop looking for the big "sci-fi-ness" of it and just let the story happen, it's amazingly well thought out and very, very enjoyable. I found myself smiling openly truly, honestly having a "warm heart" moment at the end. A couple of grammar and usage choices had me scratching my head, but none so glaring that I can think of them now, a day after I listened to it. The story is the important part. Nothing a solid editorial pass over wouldn't fix.
Very well done.
And again, I'd like to say... Thank you, Mur. I thought Steve's stepping down would signal the end of Escape pod, but in typical Mighty Mur fashion, you're doing the job, doing it well, and getting it done. Thanks.
The guy who reads the feedback at the end... I have to admit his delivery is so awkward that I don't bother listening any more. No offense intended; he just needs to polish his public speaking skills a little.
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I don't know, I'm glad the story didn't go the Pseudopod 'woman reborn as her own granddaughter!' route but otherwise I was continually thinking there was an '...and?' that the story never dealt with. I felt at the end that I had been told the set-up for a story but not the actual story itself. I'm not complaining that there were no sentient starships or laser-swords in my sci-fi this week but we didn't go very far on what was an exquisitely well put-together part-of-a-story.
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I actually rather enjoyed this story, despite it being similar to a bunch of other stories I didn't really care. Yes, it was long. Yes, the SF element was barely present. Yes, there wasn't much in the way of action, mostly people arguing with other people at length. But darnit, it was done so well!
All of the characters felt authentic, and the personal arc was well played. The protagonist made the same mistake that is so easy to make as a parent: You set out to avoid the mistakes your parents made, but it's easy to, instead of being the best parent you can be for your child, you try to be the parent that you WISHED your parents would've been to you. But in the process it's too easy to forget that just because you wanted that life doesn't mean your kid does.
I relate more to the protagonist in this case than her mother though. It drives me nuts when a parent holds a child back from pursuing the life they want to pursue because they're too sad to see them go. I mean, you should be sad to see them go, but holding them back when they want to explore the world is an incredibly selfish choice to make. I didn't really relate to Jenny's decision to stay home and get married. I understand the love there, but why is staying home the only option for that? Why not consider other opportunities with your beloved instead of saying "I love you so I don't want to see the world."
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Liked this story very much. The characters were well drawn and had believable conversations. The clone thing was a clever way to create space for a nature/nurture discussion.
What I could not figure out is why Adrian agreed to carry the clone? That made no sense to me whatsoever. Wasn't she the family rebel, the get-out-and-see-the-world girl? I can't fathom where having a child -- particularly her mother's clone -- figured into that world view. Maybe she was more of a home-girl than she thought?
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Because her sisters were refusing to do it, they weren't going to honor their promises. Adrian/enne/whatever was apparently big on keeping promises.
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A good story, but I thought calling it science fiction simply because the premise is cloning was a bit thin; more like a veiled family tale.
And I total agree with Mur's "It's a Wonderful Life" comments. It's what ruins the Wizard of Oz as well. It's a good thing 'there's no place like home'.
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Because her sisters were refusing to do it, they weren't going to honor their promises. Adrian/enne/whatever was apparently big on keeping promises.
That and she'd long yearned for her mother's approval, and by being the one to fulfill her sisters' promise she felt that she could feel like she did right by her mother for once in her life. I don't totally understand that point of view. For me, if my parents don't approve of what I do that is their problem not my own, but I've known people who want nothing more than that approval. So it strikes me as a very real trait.
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Trite, tired, and an over-done theme. Bottom line on this trope: Life in a deterministic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism) universe would necessarily be pretty fucking frustrating eh?
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A story with a message. Eventually I figured that out after getting halfway through and feeling like nothing was happening. Not a terrible thing, but maybe I was experiencing the same thing Loz was describing, the '...and?' feeling. It may have been a good thing in a way, because my mind really started to wander on the cloning thing. Made me think how superficial our gut reactions are to the ethics of cloning. We get an initial feeling of aversion to it, but thinking about it in the context of the identical twins comparison the author used puts it in a more practical perspective.
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Bothell! It was neat seeing my little hometown mentioned side-by-side with the various metropoli.
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I always hesitate before commenting on EP stories because, as moderator, my comments might be misinterpreted. The following is just my opinion as a listener.
I like a variety in the types of stories I hear on the podcast. This story was a story about parent/child relationships, and a lot of it really struck home to me. How much do I try to force my expectations on my kids or try to change/follow the way my parents raised me? This story does a great job of exploring those questions. Could it have done it without the sf element of cloning. Yes, but that element did add some interesting perspectives and drove home the differences between the mother and daughter. Anyway, I think it's nice to include some emotion-exploring stories now and then.
Sf was built upon stories with a message. This just happens to be a touchy-feely message.
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It's really not much of a sci-fi story. The cloning thing really isn't put to use at all and seemed almost entirely unnecessary, even. I wanted Jenny to find out, or to have SOMETHING happen, but it doesn't.
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I enjoyed listening to this story, but I had many moments of cringing on behalf of the main character. Adrienne's decision to raise the clone was interesting - but she didn't really think it through very well. I found her kind of aimless, in the way of people whose actions are just a reaction to those around them - but I guess that was part of the point if the story.
I'm glad she finally let her daughter be her own person, but I wonder if Jennifer's early marriage would end up just like her Grandmothers. How similar are they? Did being cloned teach her to avoid her previous mistakes? Or is she getting married to an idea rather than a person?
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Ms. Simner did play fair with us, she never did anything to suggest that Jennifer's origin was a Chekov's Gun over the whole piece, so any expectations the reader/listener might have on that score are their fault.
But... the fact that it doesn't come up again does make the fact that it existed at all in the story a little... unnecessary? Superfluous?
Instead we have a story of wonderfully science fictional dodgy genetics, Jenny and her grandmother both have the same outlook on life because they have the same genes which completely trumps their completely different upbringings, relationships, people around them, friendships, etc etc.
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I like a variety in the types of stories I hear on the podcast.
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I think it's nice to include some emotion-exploring stories now and then.
to be fair, escapepod is strongly positioned in the soft, navel-gazing side of sf. this story just happens to fall towards the extreme side of that spectrum.
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This story would need very little modification to run in a non-SF market. As for the nature/nurture argument, I'd prefer to re-read Cyteen (unquestionably SF) over this story.
On an unrelated note, I believe I'm one of the mere dozen people who has never seen It's a Wonderful Life. But Tokyo Godfathers is the best Christmas movie in the history of film anyway, so who cares? :P
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I remember reading this anthology when I was a kid. This story wasn't quite flashy enough to catch my attention then, but it's pretty good. I was frustrated with the protagonist for being such a hypocrite, but she learned in the end, and I guess that's good enough.
People still seem to be caught up in the idea that SF is about the trappings rather than the ideas. One "shock" (cloning) is all the lens you need to view the human condition from a new angle. Robots and laser guns not necessary.
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On an unrelated note, I believe I'm one of the mere dozen people who has never seen It's a Wonderful Life.
I never have.
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On an unrelated note, I believe I'm one of the mere dozen people who has never seen It's a Wonderful Life.
I never have.
I've only seen clips, especially of the ending.
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Ok, it took me a while to get around to commenting on this one, for one simple reason: I have a lot of negative things to say.
I hate when that happens.
So, first of all - and maybe my vague elitism is showing here - I have a hard time believing in grown people who are stupid enough to believe that a clone will be in any meaningful sense the original. When Jenny One insists "you don't know that" and doctor-daughter admits "no, we don't," I wanted to scream at the radio - in fact, I think I did scream at the radio - "yes we do, you morons, we do!" There is absolutely no reason to believe that a clone will be the same person as the original. Similar in some ways, yes, but actually the original? No.
Maybe there are people this ignorant in the world, but if there are, I have a hard time connecting to them.
Secondly, I had a very hard time sympathizing with any of the characters except the daughter until the very end. When the mother laughed and said "mommies all the way back" I snickered and said "you mean selfish bitches all the way back." Jenny One was incredibly selfish and controlling and Adrian was no better. I thought Jenny One's attempt to dominate her children from beyond the grave was execrable and Adrian's reasons for having a child were dangerously self-centered. I'm glad the story didn't go there, but kind of surprised that Jenny Two didn't end up abused or neglected thanks to Adrian's deep and unresolved anger issues.
The ending redeemed this issue somewhat by dealing with it, but in a sense it was too little too late. Sure, Adrian got shown up and had to (finally) come face to face with the reality of her mediocre parenting - that's something all parents have to do, eventually, even the ones who weren't really mediocre parents :-\ - but I spent almost the entire story disliking her and actively wanting her to shut up, go to a shrink, or possibly get hit by a bus.
. . .
You know, on retrospect, I should probably admit that I had an extremely controlling mother. I moved to California (from New York!) after college to get away from her. Despite not being a clone of my dead grandfather, this story might have struck a chord with me. This is likewise a redeeming characteristic - strong reactions ~= good art - but not enough to tip me over into a positive review.
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I guess I'm sort of old-fashioned. I like stories--especially science fiction ones--to have...well, a PLOT. And while I don't mind character-driven stories, I like them to have at least some attempt at a plot.
This story failed on that point, and I kept having to 'rewind' to listen because my attention kept drifting. I finally had to skip it until I was in the car, captive, and unable to allow the 'drift.'
I didn't hate it, but I didn't love it, either. It was well-written, but...I guess just not my cup of klah.
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?
I guess I don't get the "no plot" complaint, it pretty clearly has a plot to me - Adrian's having to come to terms with her upbringing in order to do the right thing by her kid.
Was the story action packed, no, but it definitely had conflict and a resolution going on...
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Jenny One was incredibly selfish and controlling and Adrian was no better...I spent almost the entire story disliking her and actively wanting her to shut up, go to a shrink, or possibly get hit by a bus.
So what you're saying is that Jenny only thought about Jenny but didn't think about Derwin? Jenifa, oh Jenny...
By the way, I can't believe I'm the only one who's going to stick up for poor Jimmy Stewart...
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When I heard "mommies all the way back", I thought "turtles all the way down". Anyone else?
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When I heard "mommies all the way back", I thought "turtles all the way down". Anyone else?
hahahahaha, yes.
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When I heard "mommies all the way back", I thought "turtles all the way down". Anyone else?
Yuppers.
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I think it would be more interesting and probably more rewarding to raise your own clone than that of a parent. We may love our parents but most of us don't really know them, not on a deep level. But if you raised a clone of yourself you would know what its (meaning his or her) strengths and weaknesses are, what it would need, maybe that it would do fine in math but need encouragement for those music lessons, and would have a chance to really excel if you made sure there was tutoring in chemistry. You would know, to some extent at least, what it should avoid and what it should seek out. You would have a better chance of helping your own clone reach its full genetic potential than the clone of a parent. You would be related to the clone of a parent to exactly the same degree as you would be related to your own natural child, and we see how often that doesn't work out.
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I think it would be more interesting and probably more rewarding to raise your own clone than that of a parent.
Though it'd make for an interesting story, I find that idea unspeakably creepy. Blarg! I doubt I could restrain myself from trying to "correct" the "wrong" choices my clone made.
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When I heard "mommies all the way back", I thought "turtles all the way down". Anyone else?
Yes!
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I think it would be more interesting and probably more rewarding to raise your own clone than that of a parent.
Though it'd make for an interesting story, I find that idea unspeakably creepy. Blarg! I doubt I could restrain myself from trying to "correct" the "wrong" choices my clone made.
Yes, but parents do that anyway. All the time. At least with a clone you would have a greater likelyhood of being right.
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I think it would be more interesting and probably more rewarding to raise your own clone than that of a parent. We may love our parents but most of us don't really know them, not on a deep level. But if you raised a clone of yourself you would know what its (meaning his or her) strengths and weaknesses are, what it would need, maybe that it would do fine in math but need encouragement for those music lessons, and would have a chance to really excel if you made sure there was tutoring in chemistry. You would know, to some extent at least, what it should avoid and what it should seek out. You would have a better chance of helping your own clone reach its full genetic potential than the clone of a parent. You would be related to the clone of a parent to exactly the same degree as you would be related to your own natural child, and we see how often that doesn't work out.
Anybody interested in this idea should read Cyteen. In addition to the main plot line of trying to replicate the original personality and ability in a clone, Justin - one of the main characters - is a clone of his father Jordan, who had his own ideas on how to duplicate a person's abilities in a clone.
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?
I guess I don't get the "no plot" complaint, it pretty clearly has a plot to me - Adrian's having to come to terms with her upbringing in order to do the right thing by her kid.
Was the story action packed, no, but it definitely had conflict and a resolution going on...
I concur
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I think it would be more interesting and probably more rewarding to raise your own clone than that of a parent. We may love our parents but most of us don't really know them, not on a deep level. But if you raised a clone of yourself you would know what its (meaning his or her) strengths and weaknesses are, what it would need, maybe that it would do fine in math but need encouragement for those music lessons, and would have a chance to really excel if you made sure there was tutoring in chemistry. You would know, to some extent at least, what it should avoid and what it should seek out. You would have a better chance of helping your own clone reach its full genetic potential than the clone of a parent. You would be related to the clone of a parent to exactly the same degree as you would be related to your own natural child, and we see how often that doesn't work out.
Anybody interested in this idea should read Cyteen. In addition to the main plot line of trying to replicate the original personality and ability in a clone, Justin - one of the main characters - is a clone of his father Jordan, who had his own ideas on how to duplicate a person's abilities in a clone.
There was at least one subplot related to that idea in Otherland as well (and done well).
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When I heard "mommies all the way back", I thought "turtles all the way down". Anyone else?
What's that from? I'm guessing Yertle the Turtle?
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I enjoyed this one. Some listeners have complained about the thin SF veneer, but the cloning worked for me, because in the end this was a story about a mother and a daughter redeeming and reconciling with each other. Sure, it could've done that without cloning, if Jenny just had a strong resemblance to her mother. But as a clone of her mother, I felt like it added something different to the story, and I enjoyed that.
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When I heard "mommies all the way back", I thought "turtles all the way down". Anyone else?
What's that from? I'm guessing Yertle the Turtle?
Stephen Hawking actually. I'll admit; I had to look it up (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down) yesterday.
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By the way, I can't believe I'm the only one who's going to stick up for poor Jimmy Stewart...
I just did so here (http://forum.escapeartists.net/index.php?topic=4402.msg79006#msg79006)
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When I heard "mommies all the way back", I thought "turtles all the way down". Anyone else?
What's that from? I'm guessing Yertle the Turtle?
Stephen Hawking actually. I'll admit; I had to look it up (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down) yesterday.
Didn't he write Yertle the Turtle? ;)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_uFooa8uVVH4/RiTEAjnraQI/AAAAAAAAAiY/8-if474I8II/s400/yurtle.gif)
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Stephen Hawking actually. I'll admit; I had to look it up (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down) yesterday.
Didn't he write Yertle the Turtle? ;)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_uFooa8uVVH4/RiTEAjnraQI/AAAAAAAAAiY/8-if474I8II/s400/yurtle.gif)
Hawking, write Yertle? I thought that was Dr. Dre.
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Stephen Hawking actually. I'll admit; I had to look it up (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down) yesterday.
Didn't he write Yertle the Turtle? ;)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_uFooa8uVVH4/RiTEAjnraQI/AAAAAAAAAiY/8-if474I8II/s400/yurtle.gif)
Hawking, write Yertle? I thought that was Dr. Dre.
No, no, he played for the 76ers in the eighties...
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By the way, I can't believe I'm the only one who's going to stick up for poor Jimmy Stewart...
I just did so here (http://forum.escapeartists.net/index.php?topic=4402.msg79006#msg79006)
So you did, so you did.
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I hate the idea of parents holding their kids back based on the fact that they are so fricken needy. It to me a while to realize that my mom was not prepared for my move to college. She said she was happy to get rid of me but she continually calls me checking up on me like I am still 16. but like my biology teacher said, "Parents will always treat you like you are 16" Plus three is the whole twist on Jenny being a clone of her grandmother basically. Very bizarre!!!
I loved the story, kind of bummed me out but really made me think about kids and expectations. An Mur's comments also really hit home as did this post. Sometimes I check in too much with my son who is in college and I can relate to the biology teacher's comment, even though every time I see my son he seems to have become more mature and independent. Gotta quit texting him so much.
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With the exception of the cloning, this story wasn't very sci-fi. However, I found it to be a very poignant reflection on what it means to be a parent and letting your child become his or her own person.
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Gd grf, wht brng str, nd wth s mch nsght s pckt f crps. hv fnll jnd th "Wh ws ths str n scp Pd" frtrnt. Jst stck cln n thr nd t's Sc-f rght? dn't thnk s. n xplsn ds nt n ctn mv mk. Ths s n f ths 'ss' strs tht th thr hd t 'gt t f hr sstm' prbbl d t chldhd trm f sm knd, bt lrgl hlds nthng f ntrst fr nn ls. Jst n vrl lnght sllw ccmltn f wrds wstd n n P psd. ptrnsng Pts jst st bck nd wx dtc bt hw gd str s bcs 'r n th clck. Grw sm brss ns nd gnrt n pnn f r wn. Gv n hnst pnn th w dd bfr th P chn bcm ttchd t r ft. 'kng hplss
D-D-D-DISEMVOWELED! Haha. Hey Osama, quit the trolling, learn to be nicer, etc etc. Insulting everyone isn't the way to get your point across.
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Gd grf, wht brng str, nd wth s mch nsght s pckt f crps. hv fnll jnd th "Wh ws ths str n scp Pd" frtrnt. Jst stck cln n thr nd t's Sc-f rght? dn't thnk s. n xplsn ds nt n ctn mv mk. Ths s n f ths 'ss' strs tht th thr hd t 'gt t f hr sstm' prbbl d t chldhd trm f sm knd, bt lrgl hlds nthng f ntrst fr nn ls. Jst n vrl lnght sllw ccmltn f wrds wstd n n P psd. ptrnsng Pts jst st bck nd wx dtc bt hw gd str s bcs 'r n th clck. Grw sm brss ns nd gnrt n pnn f r wn. Gv n hnst pnn th w dd bfr th P chn bcm ttchd t r ft. 'kng hplss
So, now that I've reported this jerk to the moderators, can anyone tell me where to find the button I press so I never have to read his posts ever again?
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Gd grf, wht brng str, nd wth s mch nsght s pckt f crps. hv fnll jnd th "Wh ws ths str n scp Pd" frtrnt. Jst stck cln n thr nd t's Sc-f rght? dn't thnk s. n xplsn ds nt n ctn mv mk. Ths s n f ths 'ss' strs tht th thr hd t 'gt t f hr sstm' prbbl d t chldhd trm f sm knd, bt lrgl hlds nthng f ntrst fr nn ls. Jst n vrl lnght sllw ccmltn f wrds wstd n n P psd. ptrnsng Pts jst st bck nd wx dtc bt hw gd str s bcs 'r n th clck. Grw sm brss ns nd gnrt n pnn f r wn. Gv n hnst pnn th w dd bfr th P chn bcm ttchd t r ft. 'kng hplss
"Clique."
(Also "crisps," "lengthy," and "shallow." And "patronizing," unless you're actually British.)
This charming fellow's been around that block before, ElectricPaladin; he is apparently ill-suited to the climate of the forums.
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*takes a bow*
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*takes a bow*
*Applause Applause*
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I wasn't bothered by the lack of more science fiction elements. It reminded me of EP213: A Monkey Will Never Get Rid of Its Black Hands in that it took a sliver of a speculative element and explored our humanity's response to that development. Simner did a good job skirting melodrama while exploring the issue raised. I was worried early on that the story was going to take a turn into some form of re-awaking consciousness, but was happy it stayed on the tack it did. The fact the narrator could continue to work out her issues with her mother through her relationship with her daughter and her ability to readily accept the biological inevitabilities of her daughter being a clone but desire to resist the less tangible physiological ramifications compelling.
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I will have to check out a Monkey Will Never Get Rid of Its Black Hands. It sounds like it would be interesting. As far as science fiction elements I thought it was a good piece of science fiction. But I am no where near qualified to say whether it was good science fiction or not. For some reason the robot reminded me of Bender off from Futurama haha.
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But I am no where near qualified to say whether it was good science fiction or not.
But you ARE qualified, at least to say whether YOU think it is good science fiction. I doubt you'll ever get a consensus, even with a panel of "experts" on which stories are good science fiction, but no reader's opinion is less valid than theirs. :)
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My god, I hated Jenny One. Bad enough to be so needy, but the way she pursued it -- the smiling, happy, "but we're all here; why would you want to leave?" attitude, the passive-aggressive tactic of paying a deposit on the school she KNOWS her daughter doesn't want to go to, all the rest of her controlling behavior -- after the car crash, I was practically snarling at the stereo, because I so badly wanted to punch her in the throat.
Didn't much like Jennifer, either, since the story didn't build enough sympathy in me for what she wanted out of life, and by the end I wasn't too fond of Adrienne since she'd taken precisely one stab at doing what she wanted and then gave up . . . but I did like the story, overall. I *believed* in the characters, even if I didn't like them.
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Sometimes I check in too much with my son who is in college and I can relate to the biology teacher's comment, even though every time I see my son he seems to have become more mature and independent. Gotta quit texting him so much.
See, I don't think it's a bad thing to stay in the lives of your adult children, so long as the relationship matures to one of friends, rather than parent-child. As an adult, I now see my parents as friends, and I really enjoy that relationship with them.
Regarding the story, I thought it was okay. But I agree with Mur; I would have liked to see Adriane pick up some of her old dreams.
P.S. This story entertained me through kilometers 22-29 of a marathon last Sunday... one of my long-standing dreams :).
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P.S. This story entertained me through kilometers 22-29 of a marathon last Sunday... one of my long-standing dreams :).
Cool -- so how'd you go?
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So, first of all - and maybe my vague elitism is showing here - I have a hard time believing in grown people who are stupid enough to believe that a clone will be in any meaningful sense the original. When Jenny One insists "you don't know that" and doctor-daughter admits "no, we don't," I wanted to scream at the radio - in fact, I think I did scream at the radio - "yes we do, you morons, we do!" There is absolutely no reason to believe that a clone will be the same person as the original. Similar in some ways, yes, but actually the original? No.
While I agree with you that there is no evidence for a 'soul' (especially one that could or would transfer between bodies after several months or whatever the time was between Jenny's death and Jennifer's ... birth? 'conception'? development of neurons?) and in fact, there is increasing neurological (and other) evidence against such a thing, it is, technically, correct to say that we do not 100%, categorically know there isn't one. We can act as though we know there isn't, even be just that close to certainty, but if we are true sceptics, we have to admit the (extremely, immeasurably slim) possibility that science may someday detect such a thing.
Or, as Stephen Jay Gould put it: In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.
The fact of a lack of soul is not proven, merely confirmed to such a degree. So technically, it's true - though misleading, and the doctor in the story should have found a way to express that - to say "we don't know."
Maybe there are people this ignorant in the world, but if there are, I have a hard time connecting to them.
I'm guessing you're not from the U.S., or you would have encountered a myriad of such people by now. If you are from there, and you haven't encountered them, I'm fascinated to know how you've accomplished it.
I think (but am not certain) that the whole idea of 'souls' is one of the main reasons that religious believers have such difficulty accepting the idea of human cloning.
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Even if souls exist, why would there be any reason to believe that Jenny's soul would come back just because there's a genetically identical body for it? We may not be able to disprove the existence of a soul, but that doesn't really factor into the question of why grown adults would believe that Jennifer would be Jenny again despite being raised in completely different circumstances two generations later.
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Even if souls exist, why would there be any reason to believe that Jenny's soul would come back just because there's a genetically identical body for it? We may not be able to disprove the existence of a soul, but that doesn't really factor into the question of why grown adults would believe that Jennifer would be Jenny again despite being raised in completely different circumstances two generations later.
I can think of much less likely things than that (or at least things I consider less likely), that people believe routinely. Transubstantiation, just to name one.
Spider Robinson once wrote a different take on the whole transferring-souls idea: an über-rich woman's husband dies and she tries to find his recycled soul by finding out what babies were born at the exact moment of his death.
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I thought the premise of the story made me cringe. While it may be a noble idea to raise the clone of your mother, I ..just don't think I'd want to do that. It'd make me question myself too much.
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Even if souls exist, why would there be any reason to believe that Jenny's soul would come back just because there's a genetically identical body for it? We may not be able to disprove the existence of a soul, but that doesn't really factor into the question of why grown adults would believe that Jennifer would be Jenny again despite being raised in completely different circumstances two generations later.
I can think of much less likely things than that (or at least things I consider less likely), that people believe routinely. Transubstantiation, just to name one.
Spider Robinson once wrote a different take on the whole transferring-souls idea: an über-rich woman's husband dies and she tries to find his recycled soul by finding out what babies were born at the exact moment of his death.
See, that, at least, has some religious support and a few thousand years of Buddhist tradition going for it. And it makes sense, presuming a belief in reincarnation and souls, that the soul would have to go somewhere PDQ upon death.
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Even if souls exist, why would there be any reason to believe that Jenny's soul would come back just because there's a genetically identical body for it? We may not be able to disprove the existence of a soul, but that doesn't really factor into the question of why grown adults would believe that Jennifer would be Jenny again despite being raised in completely different circumstances two generations later.
Why would there NOT be a reason to believe Jenny's soul would come back just because there's a genetically identical body for it? Just one idea off the top of my head: maybe souls are genetically imprinted, and so once it's cut loose from one body, it just drifts away, but if another body with the same DNA is created the soul is drawn to it, perhaps even displacing other competing souls.
Note, I don't really think that was the case in this particular story. But if you decide that souls exist, why would you rule out certain potential traits of souls? To me that's like saying "I am certain that dragons don't exist. But if they do, they are purple, and smell of tulips."
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Why would there NOT be a reason to believe Jenny's soul would come back just because there's a genetically identical body for it? Just one idea off the top of my head: maybe souls are genetically imprinted, and so once it's cut loose from one body, it just drifts away, but if another body with the same DNA is created the soul is drawn to it, perhaps even displacing other competing souls.
Note, I don't really think that was the case in this particular story. But if you decide that souls exist, why would you rule out certain potential traits of souls? To me that's like saying "I am certain that dragons don't exist. But if they do, they are purple, and smell of tulips."
Well, because most of the time when people believe something odd, it's based on something. A long-standing religion, or a cultural assumption, or a family tradition. Not something they made up out of the blue. The story didn't do the work to convince us that this ambiguity had become a cultural phenomenon - it almost expected us to have the necessary doubts ourselves.
Consider, by way of comparison, Marie Brennan's Kingspeaker (which recently aired on Podcastle). Kingspeaker showed us a new world, with strange customs, and did the work of establishing this world and it's beliefs brick by brick, until we could believe in the characters and their dilemma. Billion-Dollar View did the same with its world of rock-jockeys and cold equations. Raising Jenny failed at this important world-building point, with regards to cloning-as-transmigration.
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Even if souls exist, why would there be any reason to believe that Jenny's soul would come back just because there's a genetically identical body for it?
Philip José Farmer's Riverworld series is centered on just such a notion.
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Yes it was a good story BUT..... frankly I'm tired of listening to, or reading SF stories that have sod all to do with SF. With SF, for me, the whole point is to set up stories that couldn't just happen in every day life, or that have some special take on things. This story had none of those. Please, Escape Pod editors, give us genuine SF. Don't pick stories just because they happen to be good stories. Pick good SF stories. The cloning thing here was a shallow excuse to give an SF slant to a normal story. If the cloning had been exploited more (such as the 'child' having phantom memories from the 'parent') then perhaps more could be made of it. Let's have more genuine SF please, not a thin veneer of SF as an excuse.
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Yes it was a good story BUT..... frankly I'm tired of listening to, or reading SF stories that have sod all to do with SF. With SF, for me, the whole point is to set up stories that couldn't just happen in every day life, or that have some special take on things. This story had none of those. Please, Escape Pod editors, give us genuine SF. Don't pick stories just because they happen to be good stories. Pick good SF stories. The cloning thing here was a shallow excuse to give an SF slant to a normal story. If the cloning had been exploited more (such as the 'child' having phantom memories from the 'parent') then perhaps more could be made of it. Let's have more genuine SF please, not a thin veneer of SF as an excuse.
I'd argue that "an SF slant to a normal story" is an entirely valid branch of the Science Fiction tree, just as "normal stories" with fantasy and (more rarely) horror elements are parts of their genres. For some readers, stories focused on characters having emotional issues or dealing with stressors to their relationships against a backdrop of science fiction, fantasy, or horror elements are the ideal.
Case in point, we have...
Dracula, basically the story of a new marriage surviving its first conflict.
Stranger in a Strange Land, the story of a group of friends dealing with social change.
Farmer in the Sky - more Heinlein - is basically a coming-of-age story against a backdrop of an extraterrestrial colony.
I could go on, but I don't feel like it.
For that matter, what exactly do you mean by a "normal" story? A story about people? A story about families? A story about emotions and relationships? A story where the fantastic elements are insufficiently elaborate?
Anyway, it's all well and good to say that you don't like the story, but it's definitely science fiction, part of a proud tradition of science fiction.
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What makes it SF? A few lines at the start and the occasional reference in the story? Take out those lines, and the story remains untouched. It adds nothing. On that argument, I could take absolutely any story whatsoever, add a few lines at the start to say it happens on an alien planet, and lo and behold I've written a SF story. Sorry, there's got to be more to it than that. I'll repeat that I think it's a good story, just not SF. The whole point of Dracula is that the vampire adds a completely different dimension to the story, and much of the dramatic tension in the story derives from the hiden and open menace of the vampire. That's not the case in this story.
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"Genuine" sf is subjective. This story was perfectly SF to me.
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What makes it SF? A few lines at the start and the occasional reference in the story? Take out those lines, and the story remains untouched. It adds nothing. On that argument, I could take absolutely any story whatsoever, add a few lines at the start to say it happens on an alien planet, and lo and behold I've written a SF story. Sorry, there's got to be more to it than that. I'll repeat that I think it's a good story, just not SF. The whole point of Dracula is that the vampire adds a completely different dimension to the story, and much of the dramatic tension in the story derives from the hiden and open menace of the vampire. That's not the case in this story.
I disagree (and why do I always end up defending stories I didn't like much?).
In this case, the story was incredibly informed by the fact that Adrienne's daughter was her mother's clone. The only reason she ended up a mother in the first place was because of her mother's (deranged) expectation that the clone would be in some way, her. Adrienne raised the clone as a way to defeat her mother because she, too (was to stupid enough to have) believed that the clone was in some way the same person as her mother.
Consider this: the market for "normal" stories is much larger than the market for science fiction and fantasy stories. Better paying, too. There's no reason for an author to slap a veneer of science fiction onto a story - he'd just be going out of his way to make the story less salable. No, this story is exactly what it is, and I still don't see how that's not science fiction.
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Consider this: the market for "normal" stories is much larger than the market for science fiction and fantasy stories. Better paying, too. There's no reason for an author to slap a veneer of science fiction onto a story - he'd just be going out of his way to make the story less salable. No, this story is exactly what it is, and I still don't see how that's not science fiction.
I disagree, only on the market research side of things. I don't have a dog in the "is this science fiction or not?" fight. I've been shopping literary shorts, and aside from Glimmer train, and a few regional and university journals there ain't much out there, at least not that's as widely available as say Asimov's for paper or Escape Pod for podcast.
As a caveat, I typically don't count markets where there are regional restrictions for submission, or places that don't pay, there may be more of these than I'm aware of, but general purpose fiction short story mags in paper or digital are rarer than for genre fiction.
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there's been increased chatter about escapepod's choice in stories over the last few weeks. these posts come in a wide variety of voices, some more polite than others, but they're all looking for the same thing: more science fiction in their science fiction podcast.
my opinion is very much in line with this but i hadn't posted earlier because i've talked about it a lot in the past. perhaps a little too much. but then again, perhaps talking too little is just bad as talking too much.
i'm drifting away from escapepod. it might be a natural result of fatigue after five years, but it feels like escapepod is drifting as well. it has always favoured science fiction stories that are light on the science; now that tendency is getting more pronounced. over those five years other podcasts have become available and they're running the stories i want to hear.
this isn't to say that ea owes anything to anybody, i just figure that this is worth feedback. ep has a developed audience and they know what they like. near the beginning of the year there was a new editor that ran an increased number of concept stories and the result was confusion and discontent in the forums. that's a strong indication to stay the course but i'm worried that there might be something of an echo chamber in the forums, reinforcing the popular opinion and driving ep into a narrowing niche.
soft, navel-gazing stories are still scifi. they belong on this podcast, it's the ratio that is giving me a problem. 1:5 soft scifi is about where i like it, ep is moving towards 4:5.
to people moved to anger about this: don't become one of those characters that bug you in the story. instead of fixating on how much you dislike the story and spending your time venting emotion, be proactive and look for stories you feel good supporting. starship sofa (http://www.starshipsofa.com/) is a good place to start.
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"to people moved to anger about this" - alternately, I'd suggest spending some time off the internet, because getting angry about something you get for free is really sad.
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that just fixes your problem (not wanting angry posts on the forum) not their problem (wanting a story they can enjoy).
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to people moved to anger about this: don't become one of those characters that bug you in the story. instead of fixating on how much you dislike the story and spending your time venting emotion, be proactive and look for stories you feel good supporting. starship sofa (http://www.starshipsofa.com/) is a good place to start.
It's all a matter of taste. I'm very excited that Starship Sofa won a Hugo, but EP has a much higher "me likey" hit-rate for me. I'm sure the reverse is true of other people.
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Why would there NOT be a reason to believe Jenny's soul would come back just because there's a genetically identical body for it? Just one idea off the top of my head: maybe souls are genetically imprinted, and so once it's cut loose from one body, it just drifts away, but if another body with the same DNA is created the soul is drawn to it, perhaps even displacing other competing souls.
Note, I don't really think that was the case in this particular story. But if you decide that souls exist, why would you rule out certain potential traits of souls? To me that's like saying "I am certain that dragons don't exist. But if they do, they are purple, and smell of tulips."
Well, because most of the time when people believe something odd, it's based on something. A long-standing religion, or a cultural assumption, or a family tradition. Not something they made up out of the blue. The story didn't do the work to convince us that this ambiguity had become a cultural phenomenon - it almost expected us to have the necessary doubts ourselves.
Consider, by way of comparison, Marie Brennan's Kingspeaker (which recently aired on Podcastle). Kingspeaker showed us a new world, with strange customs, and did the work of establishing this world and it's beliefs brick by brick, until we could believe in the characters and their dilemma. Billion-Dollar View did the same with its world of rock-jockeys and cold equations. Raising Jenny failed at this important world-building point, with regards to cloning-as-transmigration.
Sure, that's a reason to believe that souls work a particular way, but is it a good reason? Why insist on particular traits for something you don't believe in anyway? I'm perfectly willing to accept that IF souls exist, they may exist in some form other than what current science or current religion is capable of explaining. This is especially true in a story world where the rules of such things in the story don't have to match the rules of the real world. I mean, if I meet a dragon today who happens to be maroon and smells of maraschino cherries, who am I to tell it that it can't exist?
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Just for my bit of it, good Hard SF is hard to find. There's no shortage of Hard SF where the writer can mostly write but really mangles the science, or Hard SF where the writer knows the science cold but can't, well, write. We're not going to bring you bad Hard SF. I think we're pretty clear in our submission guidelines in what we're willing and want to publish, and honestly for my part I wish we got more publishable Hard SF stories through our slush pile. It's a really hard genre to do well, and we're not going to publish hard SF stories where the characters and dialog don't work.
EP is a science fiction magazine. We’re very broad-minded in our vision of the genre’s scope; we follow Damon Knight’s definition, “Science fiction means what we point to when we say it.” We’re not going to pin ourselves down and say we’re only looking for space opera, or cyberpunk, or stories with rigorous scientific background. We want all of those, of course; but in a more general sense we want that which evokes a sense of wonder, or fun, or simply makes us think about our own world in a new way.
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"to people moved to anger about this" - alternately, I'd suggest spending some time off the internet, because getting angry about something you get for free is really sad.
Well, to be fair, it's not really free, is it? It takes time to listen to a story, and as Einstein proved, time is money (t=$) ;)
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"to people moved to anger about this" - alternately, I'd suggest spending some time off the internet, because getting angry about something you get for free is really sad.
Well, to be fair, it's not really free, is it? It takes time to listen to a story, and as Einstein proved, time is money (t=$) ;)
$=tc2
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Just for my bit of it, good Hard SF is hard to find. There's no shortage of Hard SF where the writer can mostly write but really mangles the science, or Hard SF where the writer knows the science cold but can't, well, write. We're not going to bring you bad Hard SF. I think we're pretty clear in our submission guidelines in what we're willing and want to publish, and honestly for my part I wish we got more publishable Hard SF stories through our slush pile. It's a really hard genre to do well, and we're not going to publish hard SF stories where the characters and dialog don't work.
EP is a science fiction magazine. We’re very broad-minded in our vision of the genre’s scope; we follow Damon Knight’s definition, “Science fiction means what we point to when we say it.” We’re not going to pin ourselves down and say we’re only looking for space opera, or cyberpunk, or stories with rigorous scientific background. We want all of those, of course; but in a more general sense we want that which evokes a sense of wonder, or fun, or simply makes us think about our own world in a new way.
I've read very little hard SF that I really enjoyed. It seems like, in hard SF, the author feels the need to explain WHY their science is plausible in nauseating detail and I feel like I'm hearing a lecture instead of a story. I'm not opposed to hard SF, but like you said, there's too much where the storytelling falls by the wayside.
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Sure, that's a reason to believe that souls work a particular way, but is it a good reason? Why insist on particular traits for something you don't believe in anyway? I'm perfectly willing to accept that IF souls exist, they may exist in some form other than what current science or current religion is capable of explaining. This is especially true in a story world where the rules of such things in the story don't have to match the rules of the real world. I mean, if I meet a dragon today who happens to be maroon and smells of maraschino cherries, who am I to tell it that it can't exist?
Again, the issue is not that the characters believe this (that souls will return to a clone or that a clone will somehow magically be the same person again) but the unquestioning way they all sort of assume it when it makes no sense to believe it. As it stands, no one who knows what cloning is believes that clones are the same person as their source material; if this technology has become common enough to be a standard procedure with minimal risk, then where did this bizarre belief come from?
I have no problems with character believing oddball things, and I also can't say what would or would not "make sense" for a soul, but the body of thought and history that we have today would logically impact the world of tomorrow, and in the world of today, no one believes that souls return to genetically identical bodies. The story assumes that this makes so much sense that we won't question where the belief came from, but it doesn't fit into any sort of current philosophical tradition any better than if the mother had announced her intentions to live forever in a small Hot Wheels car and all her children just nodded in recognition.
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Just for my bit of it, good Hard SF is hard to find. There's no shortage of Hard SF where the writer can mostly write but really mangles the science, or Hard SF where the writer knows the science cold but can't, well, write. We're not going to bring you bad Hard SF. I think we're pretty clear in our submission guidelines in what we're willing and want to publish, and honestly for my part I wish we got more publishable Hard SF stories through our slush pile. It's a really hard genre to do well, and we're not going to publish hard SF stories where the characters and dialog don't work.
EP is a science fiction magazine. We’re very broad-minded in our vision of the genre’s scope; we follow Damon Knight’s definition, “Science fiction means what we point to when we say it.” We’re not going to pin ourselves down and say we’re only looking for space opera, or cyberpunk, or stories with rigorous scientific background. We want all of those, of course; but in a more general sense we want that which evokes a sense of wonder, or fun, or simply makes us think about our own world in a new way.
Just to add something: For those of you who want more hard SF at EP, find writers/stories you like, track down their webpages, emails. Tell them about EP, and ask them if they can sub something.
I don't think it's so much of an issue of "EP doesn't want to run hard SF" as it is that not much good hard SF isn't getting submitted. (See also: High Fantasy and Swords & Sorcery at PodCastle.)
ETA: Also, see Swamp's post here (http://forum.escapeartists.net/index.php?topic=4419.msg79460#new).
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there's been increased chatter about escapepod's choice in stories over the last few weeks. these posts come in a wide variety of voices, some more polite than others, but they're all looking for the same thing: more science fiction in their science fiction podcast.
my opinion is very much in line with this but i hadn't posted earlier because i've talked about it a lot in the past. perhaps a little too much. but then again, perhaps talking too little is just bad as talking too much.
i'm drifting away from escapepod. it might be a natural result of fatigue after five years, but it feels like escapepod is drifting as well. it has always favoured science fiction stories that are light on the science; now that tendency is getting more pronounced. over those five years other podcasts have become available and they're running the stories i want to hear.
this isn't to say that ea owes anything to anybody, i just figure that this is worth feedback. ep has a developed audience and they know what they like. near the beginning of the year there was a new editor that ran an increased number of concept stories and the result was confusion and discontent in the forums. that's a strong indication to stay the course but i'm worried that there might be something of an echo chamber in the forums, reinforcing the popular opinion and driving ep into a narrowing niche.
soft, navel-gazing stories are still scifi. they belong on this podcast, it's the ratio that is giving me a problem. 1:5 soft scifi is about where i like it, ep is moving towards 4:5.
to people moved to anger about this: don't become one of those characters that bug you in the story. instead of fixating on how much you dislike the story and spending your time venting emotion, be proactive and look for stories you feel good supporting. starship sofa (http://www.starshipsofa.com/) is a good place to start.
I think the discussion of hard sf is a valid one, and think people should feel free to ask for it. The above message doesn't seem angry to me, just expressing opinion. I personally like a good hard sf story, one that provides solid science and well as engaging characters; however sometimes if the science is interesting enough, character can slip a little bit, but not totally. Don't get me wrong. I think I have commented enough over the years to prove that I like soft sf stories as well, and too much hard sf can get old fast.
Anyway, I just created a hard sf thread (http://forum.escapeartists.net/index.php?topic=4419.0) so that we could discuss it more at length. I think it is worth discussing.
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As it stands, no one who knows what cloning is believes that clones are the same person as their source material;
I doubt that. I don't think that clones carry their original sould, and you don't think that, but I don't find it hard to believe that a person, especially someone who already believed in souls, would believe that. Just because the technology is widely available doesn't mean that your average person understands it--especially if some movie or tv show has gone against science and suggested otherwise. Soon your average person would be mentioning that of COURSE clones carry the original soul, haven't you seen "Bringing Up Dad" on CBS?
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As it stands, no one who knows what cloning is believes that clones are the same person as their source material;
I doubt that. I don't think that clones carry their original sould, and you don't think that, but I don't find it hard to believe that a person, especially someone who already believed in souls, would believe that. Just because the technology is widely available doesn't mean that your average person understands it--especially if some movie or tv show has gone against science and suggested otherwise. Soon your average person would be mentioning that of COURSE clones carry the original soul, haven't you seen "Bringing Up Dad" on CBS?
Also, there are plenty of people who think they know what cloning is, but really don't have a clue. How many times have you seen people who think 'clone' means 'exact duplicate'? Including some people who really should know better, like people in medical professions.
I have no difficulty believing that there are plenty of people like Jenny, who have a muddled idea of both 'soul' and 'clone' (or even just 'DNA'), and think that one somehow implies the other. I also have no difficulty believing in a doctor who, when confronted with such a person, just nods and smiles and lets them believe what they like because
a) arguing about it won't convince anyone,
b) the actual explanation is too complex/nuanced to get into, and
c) she has other patients and can't be bothered.
"We don't know [for sure]," is what Terry Pratchett (who wasn't the first to do so) calls a 'lie to children' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie-to-children) - a close-enough first-order approximation to a truth* - for someone like Jenny to believe, if only just to keep from having to have That Conversation with her.
*Scattercat, I'm sure you know what a 'lie to children' is - I'm including this explanation for the benefit of anyone who may not.
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P.S. This story entertained me through kilometers 22-29 of a marathon last Sunday... one of my long-standing dreams :).
Cool -- so how'd you go?
Thanks for the interest, Kibitzer.
I completed the course in a "happy to finish" time of 5:35 :)
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I have no difficulty believing that there are plenty of people like Jenny, who have a muddled idea of both 'soul' and 'clone' (or even just 'DNA'), and think that one somehow implies the other. I also have no difficulty believing in a doctor who, when confronted with such a person, just nods and smiles and lets them believe what they like
I don't argue the plausibility of it - as mentioned elsewhere, it's silly to say what does or doesn't 'make sense' for a belief about a metaphysical concept - it's just that it seems so implicit in the story. If we "saw" one of the characters work their way through the belief logically and come to the conclusion, I'd be okay; instead, the protag actually starts to point out that the belief is nonsensical but doesn't push the matter, and the others just seem to have this belief as a default. That is, Jenny announces "I'm not going" and goes on to elaborate her plan in a way that suggests this is a common thing, for dying people to clone themselves in a bid for immortality, but the story doesn't address how such a bizarre misunderstanding of the science involved became conceptual coin of the realm in this posited future society. A reference to a sitcom (as someone suggested) or almost anything, really, wouldn't have made me go "Bzuh?" It's just the sort of presumed status of the thing.
It reminds me (structurally, not morally) of the way some older novels just assume that women are weak and frail and black people are stupid and cowardly. It's not that the idea of an individual person having those traits that confuses me, but the implicit assumption that such things are generally true. It's a moment of disconnect for me, and it throws me out of a story when I see characters all just assuming something without a reason to assume it.
It's not really a big deal. It was just kind of a "Wait, what?" moment when no one made a solid defense of the fact that cloning (to quote Morbo) DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY.
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Jenny announces "I'm not going" and goes on to elaborate her plan in a way that suggests this is a common thing, for dying people to clone themselves in a bid for immortality
Hm, I interpreted it differently. Probably because I (like you) know that cloning doesn't work that way, I assumed that Jenny was an outlier in her belief and everyone else - like the doctor - just let her believe it, whether they agreed with her or not.
I guess it could also have been that because the doctor failed to properly address Jenny's misconception properly, the daughters didn't argue with it, as Jenny would just use the doctor's authority as a shield.
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I don't argue the plausibility of it - as mentioned elsewhere, it's silly to say what does or doesn't 'make sense' for a belief about a metaphysical concept - it's just that it seems so implicit in the story. If we "saw" one of the characters work their way through the belief logically and come to the conclusion, I'd be okay;
I think there are plenty of people who hold a belief without really having logical reasons for those beliefs, and I considered the protagonist to be one of those people. She believes it cuz it makes sense to her, but she hasn't necessarily considered every belief equal and weighed the options. I'd say it's implicit in the story because it's an important aspect of the protagonist's point of view. She believes without any particularly compelling reason TO believe, and so if the story gave any more weight to it, we would have to shift outside of her point of view.
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I don't argue the plausibility of it - as mentioned elsewhere, it's silly to say what does or doesn't 'make sense' for a belief about a metaphysical concept - it's just that it seems so implicit in the story. If we "saw" one of the characters work their way through the belief logically and come to the conclusion, I'd be okay;
I think there are plenty of people who hold a belief without really having logical reasons for those beliefs, and I considered the protagonist to be one of those people. She believes it cuz it makes sense to her, but she hasn't necessarily considered every belief equal and weighed the options. I'd say it's implicit in the story because it's an important aspect of the protagonist's point of view. She believes without any particularly compelling reason TO believe, and so if the story gave any more weight to it, we would have to shift outside of her point of view.
The trouble is that this isn't a world where just one person can have this crazy-ass belief. It's a world where enough people have this belief that self-cloning has become a cultural phenomenon. A force. And that's what some people are having a hard time swallowing.
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I don't argue the plausibility of it - as mentioned elsewhere, it's silly to say what does or doesn't 'make sense' for a belief about a metaphysical concept - it's just that it seems so implicit in the story. If we "saw" one of the characters work their way through the belief logically and come to the conclusion, I'd be okay;
I think there are plenty of people who hold a belief without really having logical reasons for those beliefs, and I considered the protagonist to be one of those people. She believes it cuz it makes sense to her, but she hasn't necessarily considered every belief equal and weighed the options. I'd say it's implicit in the story because it's an important aspect of the protagonist's point of view. She believes without any particularly compelling reason TO believe, and so if the story gave any more weight to it, we would have to shift outside of her point of view.
The trouble is that this isn't a world where just one person can have this crazy-ass belief. It's a world where enough people have this belief that self-cloning has become a cultural phenomenon. A force. And that's what some people are having a hard time swallowing.
I just don't find it hard to believe that a large group of people would be unwilling to listen to scientific evidence if it suited their view, and that another group of people would be willing to sell them an expensive service based on this view.
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I just don't find it hard to believe that a large group of people would be unwilling to listen to scientific evidence if it suited their view, and that another group of people would be willing to sell them an expensive service based on this view.
A) As I keep saying, it's not hard to believe. It just seemed to come out of nowhere; this is a critique of the writing, not of the plausibility of the concept. You can write a world where people worship a Sun God, and it's utterly plausible since the sun is a major part of the life cycle and countless cultures have worshiped it in some form or another, but if your story is set in the near-future in a Western country, then you need to do a little background work to explain why this Sun God religion has grown to such proportions that it's a notable belief system.
B) Charging someone huge amounts of money for a medical procedure based on misleading or inaccurate information is fraud. We have a lot of laws hedged around medical care and its providers because the impact is so serious and the potential for misinformation so high. Right now, Christian Scientists can get in legal trouble for not seeking proper medical attention for their children and dependents (though they don't always lose, I'll grant); charging for cloning on the grounds that it's a recipe for immortality and not making clear the actual medical and scientific implications could get a doctor in serious hot water.
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Okay. It still makes sense to me.
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We don't know why other people clone themselves do we? It's been a while since I listened to this so I might be forgetting something, but it's only that Jennyone is doing this because she thinks she'll be reincarnated as her granddaughter, and providing this is just a belief of hers and she's not mentally impaired in some way then she has a right to this service, regardless of whether she's right or wrong. Does it say anywhere in the story that the cloning company was telling her to clone herself so she'd come back as her granddaughter?
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A facebook acquaintance of mine just posted this status:
do you ever wish you could be in 2 places at once? watch out, I may be cloning myself in the near future!
It's hard to know whether she actually believes her consciousness would be in two places at once, or just her DNA. I suspect the former, though.
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We don't know why other people clone themselves do we? It's been a while since I listened to this so I might be forgetting something, but it's only that Jennyone is doing this because she thinks she'll be reincarnated as her granddaughter, and providing this is just a belief of hers and she's not mentally impaired in some way then she has a right to this service, regardless of whether she's right or wrong. Does it say anywhere in the story that the cloning company was telling her to clone herself so she'd come back as her granddaughter?
Exactly. They are providing a cloning service, and if the customer wants to fill in their own unprovable details, then that's the customer's prerogative.
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To everyone who doesn't like It's a Wonderful Life, there's an alternate interpretation that I find very compelling.
From http://kfmonkey.blogspot.com/2009/03/incident-at-bedfore-falls-bridge.html (http://kfmonkey.blogspot.com/2009/03/incident-at-bedfore-falls-bridge.html):
John: Gotta say, once you realize George Bailey dies in the middle, it's a totally different movie.
Chris: ... what?
John: It's a Wonderful Life is really a movie -- and I'm not the first person to say this -- about how a man's dreams are crushed by family expectations and middle class responsibilities. George Bailey's dreams of going to college and off to Europe are destroyed by the allegedly idyllic small town values that in fact trap him. Suffocate him.
Chris: ...
John: So, say Bailey jumped off that bridge and died. Say Clarence was there to guide him to heaven. What would heaven be for such a man? It would be validation. And that's what Clarence the Angel gives him, a tour meant to show him how significant he is. Or how significant, at least, he always secretly believed himself to be.
More at the site. It really changed what I thought of the film, and made it much more interesting.
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To everyone who doesn't like It's a Wonderful Life, there's an alternate interpretation that I find very compelling.
From http://kfmonkey.blogspot.com/2009/03/incident-at-bedfore-falls-bridge.html (http://kfmonkey.blogspot.com/2009/03/incident-at-bedfore-falls-bridge.html):
John: Gotta say, once you realize George Bailey dies in the middle, it's a totally different movie.
Chris: ... what?
John: It's a Wonderful Life is really a movie -- and I'm not the first person to say this -- about how a man's dreams are crushed by family expectations and middle class responsibilities. George Bailey's dreams of going to college and off to Europe are destroyed by the allegedly idyllic small town values that in fact trap him. Suffocate him.
Chris: ...
John: So, say Bailey jumped off that bridge and died. Say Clarence was there to guide him to heaven. What would heaven be for such a man? It would be validation. And that's what Clarence the Angel gives him, a tour meant to show him how significant he is. Or how significant, at least, he always secretly believed himself to be.
More at the site. It really changed what I thought of the film, and made it much more interesting.
Thanks for sharing that, it's really interesting!
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Since we're talking IT'S A WONDERFUL LIFE varients, I guess I should bring up the 1984 book by David Thomson called SUSPECTS. It starts as seemingly short biographies of characters from a host of classic noir films, fleshing out the backgrounds and psychologies of a number of tough guys, femme fatales and down on their luck hacks familiar from films like THE KILLERS, OUT OF THE PAST, etc., but the reader begins to realize that something like a large family history that involves both pre and post-war america is being built behind the scenes, in references and allusions, and eventually the book culminates in a way that, without giving too much away, recasts IT'S A WONDERFUL LIFE as noir scenario (including the rather sad realization that certain characters from notorious films, one being Travis Bickle in TAXI DRIVER, are Bailey's failed children, eaten up by a post-war/post Watergate world). Good stuff and well worth tracking down.
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This story came along at an interesting time for me, as at the same time, I was studying Nature Vs. Nurture in my intro Psych class. Interestingly, the common consensus seems to be that it's really a mix of the two ("Nurture works on what Nature endows" I believe it was said in my text). I forwarded this to my psych professor.
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I thought it was very interesting and compelling, solid take on the whole "nature vs. nurture" conflict. Had me think about my relation with my own parents, and how I might handle my own children. Some of the characters are pretty insufferable, like "Jenny One," but I didn't think they were badly written characters--they were insufferable because of viable, human flaws, and it felt like that was the writer's intent. I'm kind-of surprised that, outside of some small references, the whole cloning thing was never mentioned again--I'd be curious to see what "Jenny Two's" reaction to being a clone of her mother's mother would be.
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I don't know what to say about an episode like this, because it really made me dislike the mother. Considering that she, for all intents and purposes, "won" the fight to keep Adrian right where she was, in Missouri, for pretty much all her life, despite the fact toward the end you get the sense that Adrian would have been much happier elsewhere. However, her mother pretty much breaks her will after the accident, having her come home, and then, when Adrian is 24, she's the one who has to raise the clone of her mother. Who then doesn't want to see the world, but wants to stay in her own little corner of it. So yeah, Adrian is pretty much trapped in an unexciting job that for all intents and purposes seems dead-end, in a house her mother (or at least her clone) picked out for her, and in the end she lets Jennifer have her way.
This story is practically crying out for a sequel told from Jennifer's point of view, especially with all the loose plot threads dangling. What was the stigma attached to being a clone? What would Jennifer's reaction be when she discovers she's a clone? I really wanted to know the answers to these questions, and I was a little disappointed when they weren't addressed.
As far as "It's a Wonderful Life" goes...I do like that movie, although I think the ending as it stands is unsettling. George is still facing charges of embezzlement, Old Man Potter gets away with stealing a substantial amount of money, and it's pretty unsatisfying on some level. I kind of like the old Saturday Night Live lost footage of It's a Wonderful Life.
Then again, it's not a bad lesson, is it? It can be deeply frustrating to see George keep putting off his dreams, but I think a lot of people do that. I've had to do it a couple times, usually to help someone else out, and it doesn't get any easier to do. It's a little comforting to think that although you had to sacrifice, it was ultimately worth something.
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While I can agree that the SF element here is only there to enhance the central conflict between protagonist and mother, I think the story had a lot going for it. The characters felt believable, the child-parent relations as well, and it was in general well told with a nice pacing. If I don't bend backwards of joy it is because the moral journey here felt pretty obvious and a bit too neatly resolved. In fact, the end was the only part that didn't feel psychologically realistic. The characters were never very likable (which is fine, I never understood the complaints about not being able to like the characters), so I didn't see the need to give them the rosy end.
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(which is fine, I never understood the complaints about not being able to like the characters)
I don't always need sympathetic characters, but one of the myriad reasons I may like a story is that I have someone to root for. There's something satisfying about seeing a likable character overcome nearly impossible odds to win the day. If that character is a douche from the very beginning... well, them getting exactly what they want may not be as exciting.
There are also characters that one loves to hate, and those stories can be great too. It's just a matter of what that particular story's style is effective at.
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Mom was a controlling bitch. Did you get the part when Dad slammed the door as he left? Mom was trying to strangle one of his dreams too.
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Mom was a controlling bitch. Did you get the part when Dad slammed the door as he left? Mom was trying to strangle one of his dreams too.
I was a little bothered by Dad's vanishing seeming entirely pinned on Dad... but on further reflection I realized that the story was actually silent on that. It just presented the story from the child's point of view, without narrative judgement, and even she never exactly blamed her dad. I did think it was odd that she never sought out contact with her father (and that her father never sought out her), though.
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I really liked this one, and I'm not quite sure why. 1)I am male, and all the characters in this story were female. 2)It is strongly about kids and parenting. I dislike most children, and do not want to be a parent. 3)It is mostly about parental relationships, particularly controlling ones. I had a very good upbringing, so I can't relate on that score. I think it just seemed genuine and honest to me, and I thought that Adrian's character grew quite a bit in the story, even though there wasn't any conflict to speak of, other than her conflict with herself and her past.
On the Soft/Hard SF front, I'm not sure where I fall, as I clearly like both. For me, good writing is good writing.
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I enjoyed the implementation of the story. The reading was superb and I found the portrayals of the characters, especially the mother/daughter (err... mother/daughter/mother) relationship to be quite believable.
However, I found myself getting really annoyed at the main character, and I found her quite whiny and lacking in personal responsibility. Okay, so you never got to live your childhood dream: join the club called "Adulthood", and move on! I think she just found it far easier to pine her loss of dreams and place a convenient blame on her mother, rather than take responsibility for her own life decisions and actually take concrete actions that might lead her to where she wants to be. So you didn't get to go to college, and now your life is over? What about community college? What about night courses, online college? She had 2~3 years after having the baby where she didn't even need to have a job, fer chrissake. She's already living a life that's far better than 90% of the people on earth, but she'd rather wallow in self-pity and victim-mentality and project all that baggage on her child.
Finally, I didn't read the entire thread, so I have to apologize if I'm re-opening a can-o-worms. Maybe it's because I'm not born in America, but I never really "got" why Americans think telling their kids "You can be anything you want" was a good idea. I mean, it's obviously not true. There's no way that pudgy kid from the chess club (speaking as one) was going to be a Pro-NFL Linebacker and date Super-models. Most little girls aren't going to grow up to be horse-riding princess, nor all the little boys become race-car drivers or professional rappers. Even the people lucky enough to be born with exceeding amounts of natural talent have to meet right people at the right time. To me it always seemed like it was setting up your child with false hopes and disappointment the first time they fail in life (and who hasn't failed?). When I was growing up I was always told things like "be a good person", "contribute something useful to the world", "put the needs of your family and others before yours", etc.. My father, who was probably very liberal by traditional Chinese standards, just told me "I don't care what you do, just make sure you do something that matters". Me, personally, I'd rather tell my child "Go where life leads you, and be yourself, whatever that is".
You know how it is. Sometimes
we plan a trip to one place,
but something takes us to another.
When a horse is being broken, the trainer
pulls it in many different directions,
so the horse will come to know
what it is to be ridden.
The most beautiful and alert horse is one
completely attuned to the rider.
God fixes a passionate desire in you,
and then disappoints you.
God does that a hundred times!
God breaks the wings of one intention
and then gives you another,
cuts the rope of contriving,
so you'll remember your dependence.
But sometimes your plans work out!
You feel fulfilled and in control.
That's because, if you were always failing,
you might give up. But remember,
it is by failures that lovers
stay aware of how they are loved.
Failure is the key
to the kingdom within.
Your prayer should be, "Break the legs
of what I want to happen. Humiliate
my desire. Eat me like candy.
It's spring and finally
I have no will."
-- Rumi
:)
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Finally, I didn't read the entire thread, so I have to apologize if I'm re-opening a can-o-worms. Maybe it's because I'm not born in America, but I never really "got" why Americans think telling their kids "You can be anything you want" was a good idea. I mean, it's obviously not true. There's no way that pudgy kid from the chess club (speaking as one) was going to be a Pro-NFL Linebacker and date Super-models.
I think that most American parents meant it more as "You should try to do whatever it is you love." At least it was when I was growing up. And it is usually used on younger kids, under 10, who really do have a larger scope of possibilities in front of them.
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Finally, I didn't read the entire thread, so I have to apologize if I'm re-opening a can-o-worms. Maybe it's because I'm not born in America, but I never really "got" why Americans think telling their kids "You can be anything you want" was a good idea. I mean, it's obviously not true. There's no way that pudgy kid from the chess club (speaking as one) was going to be a Pro-NFL Linebacker and date Super-models.
I think that most American parents meant it more as "You should try to do whatever it is you love." At least it was when I was growing up. And it is usually used on younger kids, under 10, who really do have a larger scope of possibilities in front of them.
You've got a point... and you're wrong.
Here it is: parents probably shouldn't tell their kids "you can be whatever you want," because it's just not so. Most people who try to play professional sports never make it. Most would-be novelists are never published. More academics work at undistinguished universities than at the Harvards and Stanfords of the world. Chances are good that you will never be a big deal in whatever field you set out to conquer - that's just the world works. Feeding kids a BS version of the world creates a sense of entitlement.
On the other hand, it is true that you can do what you love with your life. Maybe not professionally. Maybe not in a big riches-and-fame-and-women sort of way. But that doesn't mean you can't do it. I might never reform America's broken education system, but I'm two years into my teaching career, and that's about two hundred kids who have had the benefit of a solid 7th grade science education, courtesy of me. I might never be New York Times bestselling novelist, but I can write, and I can find a way to share my stories with the world. It isn't always easy. Living like this, you end up doing a lot of things you need to do for the sake of the few things you want to do. There are sacrifices to be made, compromises to be negotiated, and pain to be endured. But so far, it's worth it.
So maybe the line we feed our kids should be this: "If you are willing to pay the price, you can do what you want with your life. Good luck."
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I personally prefer yicheng's message of "Go where life leads you, and be yourself, whatever that is" over ElectricPaladin's "If you are willing to pay the price, you can do what you want with your life. Good luck." EP's may be more realistic, but rather pessimistic. I'm not sure what I would do if myself of today went back in time 25 years and told that me that I would be in a cloth-covered gray cubicle staring at a computer screen for 9+ hours a day contributing nothing to society, I think the younger me would be pretty depressed.
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Man, I was a cynical child. If you'd told me that, I'd have been mildly surprised I hadn't gotten my ass killed and that I was gainfully employed.
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I personally prefer yicheng's message of "Go where life leads you, and be yourself, whatever that is" over ElectricPaladin's "If you are willing to pay the price, you can do what you want with your life. Good luck." EP's may be more realistic, but rather pessimistic. I'm not sure what I would do if myself of today went back in time 25 years and told that me that I would be in a cloth-covered gray cubicle staring at a computer screen for 9+ hours a day contributing nothing to society, I think the younger me would be pretty depressed.
I dunno. I find it really empowering to think that I can have whatever I want if I'm willing to pay the price.
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I personally prefer yicheng's message of "Go where life leads you, and be yourself, whatever that is" over ElectricPaladin's "If you are willing to pay the price, you can do what you want with your life. Good luck." EP's may be more realistic, but rather pessimistic. I'm not sure what I would do if myself of today went back in time 25 years and told that me that I would be in a cloth-covered gray cubicle staring at a computer screen for 9+ hours a day contributing nothing to society, I think the younger me would be pretty depressed.
I like yicheng's message too. It's fairly similar to my parents' style of encouragement. My parents never insisted that I HAD to go to college, but they just made sure I understood the benefits of going vs. not going, and I decided to go, as did my brother and my sister. My dreams of what I wanted to do shifted, but in a way that makes sense from shift to shift. When I was a kid I wanted to be a cartoonist, because I wanted to create those characters, and turn them from concept to concrete. In high school I wanted to be a video game programmer, because of an extension of that same desire, extended to interactive fiction. In college I met some people who were video game programmers, who worked way more hours than I considered sane on a regular basis just to keep their job, and I shifted to video processing because I could find a job in it that I could work sane hours, could still enjoy the visual medium, and could be happy doing what I do.
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Very interesting. I listened to this yesterday after I had come from my son's parent-teacher conference. She spent most of the time telling how creative and bright he was, and yet how he couldn't focus, gets hung up on the smallest details. It was like she held a mirror right at me.
I found this story to be quite complicated. What we have here is a story of two women who fail to understand each other. Yes, Jenny the mother was overbearing and manipulative in a passive-aggressive way. Adrian falls prey to her sense of "duty" (remember, Jenny never said that Adrian is to raise the clone--she only stipulated it be one of her daughters.) At the same time, though, she hungers for her mother to understand her, so I don't fault her in raising the clone herself. I also happen to have an overbearing mother, to the point that strongly against her wishes, I left (I now live in a neighboring state whereas my sisters still live with my mother). In the two years I've seen her, she's only come up and see me twice, and only for an afternoon, really, than the many times we've gone down to see her. And yet, dang it all, I still do, because I can't help it. I want her to understand me. She's my mother.
I'm in agreement with Mur at the end, when I hungered to see a change in Adrian, that after her epiphany that she would re-examine her own life, make changes at last of going to college, going off to school. But it could very well be that Jennifer would see Adrian's change of herself after she gets married as complete rejection. And then it will be misunderstandings all the way forward.
I guess, to make a long story short, it's hard to raise a kid who has a completely different make-up than you. Even if, at the heart of things, the two are you are the same.
And no, I never saw It's a Wonderful life either. But I did read Cyteen. Awesome story.
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Heh...today's Dilbert (http://www.dilbert.com/strips/comic/2011-02-07/) made me think of this story!
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What a waste of time this story was.
It's only saving grace was that it reminded me of the Turkey City Lexicon, something which always makes me smile:
Abbess Phone Home
Takes its name from a mainstream story about a medieval cloister which was sold as SF because of the serendipitous arrival of a UFO at the end. By extension, any mainstream story with a gratuitous SF or fantasy element tacked on so it could be sold.
http://www.critters.org/turkeycity.html
I bet that the clone thing wasn't added to this until after it had been turned down by Woman's Own :D
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except that the cloning element was important to the story because Jennifer was an exact clone of Jenny. Had she just been the narrator's daughter it would have had far less impact.
the 'sci-fi bit' doesn't have to be ever-present for it to be important to the story or for it to be labeled sci-fi.
I'd love for you to explain why this story was a waste of time.
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I'd love for you to explain why this story was a waste of time.
Because it took the place of the usual top quality SF I thought I was going to spend fifty minutes listening to.
Instead I was tricked into wasting almost an hour of my life being subjected to something that should have been sent to Good Housekeeping.
Don't get me wrong. I'm sure lots of people love this sort of dreary middleaged emo schtick. But that's no excuse for sticking a gimp mask of an SF motif on it and smuggling it into Escape Pod.
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And it seems like it's time for a quick message from the moderator, reminding everyone of the one rule (http://forum.escapeartists.net/index.php?topic=3289.0).
There's certainly nothing wrong with finding the story dreary or not to one's taste, but given that there were certainly people who liked this story on this forum, it's worth remembering that it meets some people's definitions of SF.
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I'd love for you to explain why this story was a waste of time.
Because it took the place of the usual top quality SF I thought I was going to spend fifty minutes listening to.
Instead I was tricked into wasting almost an hour of my life being subjected to something that should have been sent to Good Housekeeping.
Don't get me wrong. I'm sure lots of people love this sort of dreary middleaged emo schtick. But that's no excuse for sticking a gimp mask of an SF motif on it and smuggling it into Escape Pod.
space ships and aliens to not a sci-fi make.
It contained futuristic tech and frequent references to subtle differences between the setting of the story and the present. It might be understated, but there's no reason why this shouldn't be called sci fi. You're missing the point of genre distinctions.
sorry you didn't like it, that's your call. Not all stories are for everyone, but please try to be civil about voicing your dislike.
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The problem is that space ships and aliens (and clones) do make SF. That's why they're sometimes tacked on to otherwise unmarketable stuff.
The question is, did this straight up and down 'I don't want to become my mother' story need an SF veneer?
I don't think that it did. If anything that cloning angle detracted from it. As somebody else said, it was the gun on the mantlepiece that was never used.
BTW, apologies if my criticism of the story itself was a bit pugnacious. It was well written, it just wasn't very Escape Artisty.
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For what it's worth, my own impression was that this wasn't a mundane story given an SF veneer (compared to that sitcom-on-a-space-station from a couple of years ago whose name I'm forgetting), I felt it was a story that started from an SF concept and tried to make it as mundane as possible. I thought it did it quite well, but I can see why that wouldn't work for everyone.
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What a waste of time this story was.
It's only saving grace was that it reminded me of the Turkey City Lexicon, something which always makes me smile:
Abbess Phone Home
Takes its name from a mainstream story about a medieval cloister which was sold as SF because of the serendipitous arrival of a UFO at the end. By extension, any mainstream story with a gratuitous SF or fantasy element tacked on so it could be sold.
http://www.critters.org/turkeycity.html
I bet that the clone thing wasn't added to this until after it had been turned down by Woman's Own :D
On the subject of genre boundaries, did anyone read "Because Someone Had to be Neil Gaiman" in Realms of Fantasy a couple years ago? It had 0 fantasy element whatsoever, and its only tie-in with a fantasy magazine seemed to be that it mentioned Neil Gaiman. That drove me nuts. Anyway...
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The question is, did this straight up and down 'I don't want to become my mother' story need an SF veneer?
I don't think that it did. If anything that cloning angle detracted from it. As somebody else said, it was the gun on the mantlepiece that was never used.
I'm not sure if it needed the SF veneer, but I disagree it was never used. There were hints and gestures towards the nature vs nurture debate, which was an underlying part of the story.
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The question is, did this straight up and down 'I don't want to become my mother' story need an SF veneer?
given that Jenifer turn out to be very much like Jenny, from whom she was cloned, I'd argue that this story wouldn't have made any sense without a scifi element.
Without that the story would simply be about the narrator. It's not; it's about Jenifer as well.
Sci-fi adds a new level of complexity to this story
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ten stars out of a possible five. great work well read. :'(
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The question is, did this straight up and down 'I don't want to become my mother' story need an SF veneer?
given that Jenifer turn out to be very much like Jenny, from whom she was cloned, I'd argue that this story wouldn't have made any sense without a scifi element.
Without that the story would simply be about the narrator. It's not; it's about Jenifer as well.
Sci-fi adds a new level of complexity to this story
Plenty of people end up being like second-order relatives. I remind pretty much everyone in my extended family of my uncle. Though I've never seen one of his drawings, I'm told I draw in the same style. We read many of the same authors, though we rarely consult one another on the subject. And I'd only met him twice before adulthood.
Sci-fi removes complexity from this story.