Escape Artists
Escape Pod => Episode Comments => Topic started by: eytanz on January 20, 2011, 08:31:38 PM
-
EP276: On a Blade of Grass (http://escapepod.org/2011/01/20/ep276-on-a-blade-of-grass/)
By Tim Pratt (http://www.timpratt.org/)
Read by Matt Weller (http://matweller.com/)
---
“Interstellar war is about as exciting as playing chess by mail.” The guy who said that had been leaning into the bar for so long I thought his chest might fuse with the wood. I drifted over, because he wasn’t a regular, and I was bored with all my regulars and their regular bullshit.
“Who plays chess by mail anymore?” I said. “With the ‘net and all.”
“Nobody. Guys in jail maybe, I don’t know. Because it’s boring. My point. Inefficient and slow. Just like this war.” He tapped his glass meaningfully. He was rumpled and sleep-creased and middle-aged and smelly, but a better class of smelly than my usual crowd — like working-all-night-sweaty smelly, not sitting-around-all-day smelly. Long enough tending bar and you can tell the difference.
I refilled his glass. He was a pretty good drinker, but the little guys often are. “They say by the time our warships get out there, to their homeworld, the Phages might even be extinct. Like, just from natural processes, long timescales, like that. Or they might’ve evolved into something new, something that doesn’t… you know…”
“Want to eat us?”
Rated PG-13 For language, two F bombs, and some parasitic details…
Show Notes:
- Feedback for Episode 268: Advection
- Next week… Rejiggering stuff – really, this time.
(http://escapepod.org/wp-images/podcast-mini4.gif)
Listen to this week’s Escape Pod! (http://traffic.libsyn.com/escapepod/EP276__On_a_Blade_of_Grass.mp3)
-
Liked this episode a lot. A quirky story with a humorous edge to it. Production was also good, as ever.
-
Also, before anyone asks: No, this was not a planned Tim Pratt EP/PC week.
We are just that awesome anyway. 8)
-
Sounds like the author of this piece is channeling Alex Jones (http://www.infowars.com/) or something. ;D I thought it was clever but because it's so plausible it kind takes the fun out of it all.
-
Fun story. I love parasite stories like that (probably an offshoot of my love of zombie fiction), and even though nothing much actually happened in this tale I still felt it was quite fulfilling.
Lucky thing that no one wanted a refill during the parasitologist story though. That could have been annoying.
Also, before anyone asks: No, this was not a planned Tim Pratt EP/PC week.
We are just that awesome anyway. 8)
I'll admit, I was wondering.
-
Tim -
A great mind-stretching "thought experiment" piece. Throughly enjoyable.
Nature can indeed create some fantastic solutions to the problem of survival.
The idea of a parasite lifecycle that spans millenia and light years, while improbable, was the kind of wonderful "big" idea that belongs in science fiction.
And I couldn't help but be sucked in by the first line: "Interstellar warfare is about as exciting as playing chess by mail." Perfecto!
-Adam
-
This story reminded me a lot of Radiolab's (factual) episode on parasites, especially the section called "The Scratch". In fact, I kind of wonder if it inspired the story.
Here's a link to it: http://www.radiolab.org/2009/sep/07/ (http://www.radiolab.org/2009/sep/07/)
-
<JoePiscopo> Characters? Cliche! Setting? Cardboard! Plot? Undetectable! </JoePiscopo>
This one was a science fiction convention bar conversation drawn out to a few thousand words.
Here's the whole story, not just summarized but encapsulated: "Did you know they recently discovered that parasites can actually change the behaviors of their hosts? I mean, *everyone* has parasites, what if something we take as entirely human...like, say, our urge to explore...weren't actually human? What if it were something imposed on us by a parasite?"
It's a great premise for a story. It's not a story in its own right.
Just like "Lust for Learning" this is a story that presents an interesting "What If?" and then never goes even one millimeter to actually EXPLORE that "What If?"
I want to see stories that go somewhere, that do things. This one just stands there with its whiskey in its hand.
-
But humans and extraterrestrials evolved in totally separate ecosystems. How could a parasite evolve a life cycle that makes use of both? Has our parasitologist friend found proof of Intelligent Design?
-
Why bother having a thread about a Tim Pratt story? They're always good.
-
Grumble.
Just because I also liked this one, even more than the other one, a lot more, in fact, does not mean I've given up on my heavy-handed criticisms of Mr Pratt's work in general. Grrr! [shakes fist] Darn yoooou, Pratt! Darn you straight to blankety heck! I dare you to write another one I'll like. I triple dog dare you.
-
Interesting that what Nobilis criticizes is precisely what I enjoyed about this one. I like thoughts; I think they are sometimes worthy of narrative all by themselves. I like intelligent thoughts that stand there, whiskey in hand, managing to impress me with their intelligence despite their whiskey-breath and history of cutesy-merely-cleverness.
I've never really been able to embrace "the rules" of narrative as a necessity; I don't look for structural similarity / conformity, nor demand adherence to some arbitrary form, in order to declare a given work "good" or "not". It's always confused me that so many people seem to hinge their appreciation of a given piece of art on whether or not it agrees with an assumed rule of conventional aesthetic or method of construction.
It's not a detraction from a storyteller's quality if the story has a coherent beginning/middle/end with crisis/climax/resolution and one of six hallowed plots emanating from the Platonic dimension of manifestations. It's also not any sort of accomplishment, unto itself.
The world would have no sippy-cups for coffee if we'd all just meekly accepted that "mugs look this way and no other; only infants are allowed to drink from sippy-cups". That would be hellish. Hellish! Mervyn Peake would have had to make Gormenghast a ten page short-short, were he to have necessarily acquiesced to Nobilis' strict vision. Hellish, I say!
-
It was a cool idea, but that's about all it was. If you've read about mind-altering parasites before, then there wasn't anything new here. I mean, toxoplasmosis and cordyceps and all those are fun and fascinating, but they're not a story by themselves. (Compare, for example, "The Giving Plague," which ran a while ago here on Escape Pod, and which managed to discuss the idea of retroviruses in depth AND have a character and a plot to go with it.) I wish that something could have happened in the story to provide more meat for the idea. Also, I had a hard time feeling a good "ooh creepy" vibe because of the issue with an extraterrestrial parasite. It's like, "Dude, you didn't lose your funding because they fear to admit that free will doesn't exist. You lost your funding because you came to a scientifically implausible conclusion without any supporting data."
I dunno. I know Big Idea stories are a staple of the genre. I just didn't see that this story had any real scientific basis, and it didn't have much of a story to distract me from that. It wasn't bad, but I finished it up and said to myself, "Why not have us all read the Wikipedia page on parasites? Or link us directly to this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scPOQC_Lpgo) or this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWB_COSUXMw&feature=related)?"
-
Enjoyed this myself. It's got a structure similar to 'Bibliophages' in that the story takes place through dialogue not in "real time" as it were. And I'm alright by that, particularly since it introduces such an interesting idea. And lets face it, who REALLY knows how much of our behavior is dictated by our own selves versus what's living in us. :P
If you've read about mind-altering parasites before, then there wasn't anything new here.
I am pretty sure this is the first time I've ever read a story suggesting humanity's drive for space exploration is because of a parasite. :P
-
If you've read about mind-altering parasites before, then there wasn't anything new here.
I am pretty sure this is the first time I've ever read a story suggesting humanity's drive for space exploration is because of a parasite. :P
Yeah, but that part made no sense because humanity has been striving to explore for a really long time, and any parasite that was already that successful at being passed down from host to host wouldn't really have any need to go extraterrestrial in order to propagate, not to mention the problems about how it got here in the first place if we've never encountered the Phages before or the issues of compatible body chemistry etc. Basically, that idea was the hook for the "story" part, but it doesn't hold up to even casual rumination, which is why I was kind of disappointed that there wasn't anything else to the story after we got to hear about Toxoplasmosis (which is a pretty interesting topic, admittedly.)
-
If you've read about mind-altering parasites before, then there wasn't anything new here.
I am pretty sure this is the first time I've ever read a story suggesting humanity's drive for space exploration is because of a parasite. :P
Yeah, but that part made no sense because humanity has been striving to explore for a really long time, and any parasite that was already that successful at being passed down from host to host wouldn't really have any need to go extraterrestrial in order to propagate, not to mention the problems about how it got here in the first place if we've never encountered the Phages before or the issues of compatible body chemistry etc. Basically, that idea was the hook for the "story" part, but it doesn't hold up to even casual rumination, which is why I was kind of disappointed that there wasn't anything else to the story after we got to hear about Toxoplasmosis (which is a pretty interesting topic, admittedly.)
I disagree. A "really long time" is subjective. Who knows what constitutes a really long time in alien terms? :) And couldn't the parasites have ridden in on some meteorite? :)
-
It was a cool idea, but that's about all it was. If you've read about mind-altering parasites before, then there wasn't anything new here. I mean, toxoplasmosis and cordyceps and all those are fun and fascinating, but they're not a story by themselves. (Compare, for example, "The Giving Plague," which ran a while ago here on Escape Pod, and which managed to discuss the idea of retroviruses in depth AND have a character and a plot to go with it.) I wish that something could have happened in the story to provide more meat for the idea. Also, I had a hard time feeling a good "ooh creepy" vibe because of the issue with an extraterrestrial parasite. It's like, "Dude, you didn't lose your funding because they fear to admit that free will doesn't exist. You lost your funding because you came to a scientifically implausible conclusion without any supporting data."
I agree completely. I read Scott Westerfeld's Peeps fairly recently and he uses the same examples of mind-altering parasites, so I felt I'd heard it all before. (It's a vampire novel in which vampire-ism is also caused by a parasite.) The idea of an extraterrestrial parasite never seemed as creepy as my mind being possibly altered by changing my cat litter--which I already knew about.
-
I was not terribly impressed with this story, probably because it is not my first exposure to the idea that parasites can affect human behavior. “The Giving Plague” by David Brin and “Screwfly Solution” Raccoona Sheldon both touch on the topic, with a bit more drama than a chat in a bar.
-
I enjoyed it, but this was, as Scattercat said above, mostly an idea wrapped up in a thin veneer of a story. But it was an entertaining thin veneer of a story - this is Tim Pratt, after all - and that's fine by me.
For those interested in the other stories mentioned by Mav.Weirdo - I'll let you figure out how to get the Screwfly Solution on your own, but The Giving Plague can be found in the Escape Pod archives as it was episode 112 (http://escapepod.org/2007/06/28/ep112-the-giving-plague/).
-
Awesome story. Love the way it started out all familiar and mundane then telescoped out into something mindblowing. SF at its best.
The presenter really added value too. This is one I'll probably find myself thinking about now and again for years.
Great work guys :)
-
The presenter really added value too.
Thanks! [+6 ego]
-
Meh.
Oh -- oops.
Didn't like this one. Semi-interesting idea but it was pretty much a big ol' bag of exposition with a few bits of framing. Kinda fun but unsatisfying, and I felt the exposition was even a little overdone. Too much stuff about "this eats that and then excretes which is eaten by the other which dies when...". Blech.
Good reading by Matt. Is that your native accent, Matt, or did you put one on?
-
this one really stretches the definitions of both "science fiction" and "story." 90% is a guy explaining parasites that actually exist. Some of it I happened to already know, so the Big Idea that parasites are controlling this one particular aspect of our personalities, when we already know they control others, wasn't that much of a big idea to me. I'm wondering if the breakdown between "likes" and "dislikes" in the forum corresponds with whether or not listeners already knew about the ants and the grass and the sheep.
I missed the connection between the aliens and the parasites. Humans encountered aliens and the aliens ate them. Isn't that all we know about them? Why are we talking about parasites?
parasite fun fact: there is a barnacle that will attach itself to a male crab, drill through the shell, grow tendrils throughout the crab's body, and secrete female crab hormones until the crab believes itself to be female and the barnacle to be its eggs. The new mother will die defending the barnacle from predators.
-
I missed the connection between the aliens and the parasites. Humans encountered aliens and the aliens ate them. Isn't that all we know about them? Why are we talking about parasites?
Because the second guy in the conversation was a parasiteologist (or whatever) who hypothesized the reason humans went out into space in the first place, and met the critters who would eat them, is because of a parasite.
-
parasite fun fact: there is a barnacle that will attach itself to a male crab, drill through the shell, grow tendrils throughout the crab's body, and secrete female crab hormones until the crab believes itself to be female and the barnacle to be its eggs. The new mother will die defending the barnacle from predators.
That goddamned thing that severs and becomes some poor fish's tongue still wins the creep-factor for parasites.
-
I'm wondering if the breakdown between "likes" and "dislikes" in the forum corresponds with whether or not listeners already knew about the ants and the grass and the sheep.
parasite fun fact: there is a barnacle that will attach itself to a male crab, drill through the shell, grow tendrils throughout the crab's body, and secrete female crab hormones until the crab believes itself to be female and the barnacle to be its eggs. The new mother will die defending the barnacle from predators.
On the first part - for me, no. I liked the story and was well aware of that particular parasite story (ants, grass, sheep) and toxoplasmosis (Stuff You Should Know had a great podcast on this subject). If anything, it enhanced my enjoyment.
-Adam
-
I've heard of the parasite referenced by the title, enough so that it was the first guess I had of the story content based on the title. I think I've heard it explained on Drabblecast and StarShipSofa, maybe a 3rd source as well. I've heard stories about the possibilities of retroviruses being responsible for making us who we are. So the big ideas I'd already seen before, and the lack of plot left me with nothing much to really like. Maybe if the parasitologist had some evidence of his theory, or we see some evidence for ourselves, maybe that could've made the story more compelling to me. As is, it felt like I'd read it before, even though I hadn't.
-
The presenter really added value too.
Yep, Matt did a great job. I think if I'd read this in text, I'd have had a similar reaction to Nobilis and Scattercat and others, although while it appeared to be 'just' a conversation in a bar, I think the real story is that of the bartender, and it's internal. To me, the researcher's travails are a story-within-a-story that set up the bartender for a fairly major change in perspective.
In any case, Matt's characterizations made the story a lot more alive for me.
It's like, "Dude, you didn't lose your funding because they fear to admit that free will doesn't exist. You lost your funding because you came to a scientifically implausible conclusion without any supporting data."
He was trying for funding to get supporting data (or try and fail, at least). "Dude, you don't have data to support your hypothesis, so we're not going to give you any money to get data to test it," seems like a pretty circular argument.
-
I just want to hop on the bandwagon of praise for Matt's fantastic reading of this one. Really great reading, and I'm looking forward to him reading more!
-
I just want to hop on the bandwagon of praise for Matt's fantastic reading of this one. Really great reading, and I'm looking forward to him reading more!
Me too, I loved the parasitoligist voice especially.
-
He was trying for funding to get supporting data (or try and fail, at least). "Dude, you don't have data to support your hypothesis, so we're not going to give you any money to get data to test it," seems like a pretty circular argument.
But I don't think he even went through the usual channels to try to get the money. Didn't he call up some government official and act like he knew of an emergency? I doubt that helped his credibility any.
Also, I got the impression that a "cure" for the disease he claims he's trying to find would not just cure desire for geographical exploration, but for scientific inquiry. So even if he had any facts to support his idea, and if people actually believed him, I'm not sure he'd get funding for the research that would LITERALLY end all research.
-
He was trying for funding to get supporting data (or try and fail, at least). "Dude, you don't have data to support your hypothesis, so we're not going to give you any money to get data to test it," seems like a pretty circular argument.
I got the impression that a "cure" for the disease he claims he's trying to find would not just cure desire for geographical exploration, but for scientific inquiry. So even if he had any facts to support his idea, and if people actually believed him, I'm not sure he'd get funding for the research that would LITERALLY end all research.
But all of that, including the "You're crazy" reaction of the funding deny-ers, is just as speculative as the original hypothesis. If there is such a parasite, then until we find it and study it, we have no idea what other effects - good or ill - it is having?
If a researcher can show that there is evidence of such a parasite, then the time comes to find out what its full effects are and what would happen if it were neutralized. The parasitologist can't force the rest of us to accept his 'cure', but we might be able to use his results to protect ourselves from being eaten by the alien equivalent of the ant-eating sheep.
Also, if a co-evolved, alien parasite is what is causing our desire for scientific (and other inquiry), then if we don't know anything about it, we can't protect it (if that's what we decide we want to do).
The point is, there's nothing to be gained by not finding out one way or another, if his hunch is correct or not. Knowing is better than not knowing, even - maybe especially - when you don't like what you find out.
-
Ok, full disclosure: I worked for a couple years in a Toxoplasma gondii research lab and I am, in fact, a "she". ;)
Given the first point, I think I'm biased in favor of this story. :) I can definitely see where people find room to criticize it, but I honestly just enjoyed hearing parasite-fueled behavior modification taken to the extremes of the universe. Pair that with the not-insignificant amount of excitement produced by hearing my name read by the esteemed Bill Peters, and I thoroughly enjoyed this episode.
add me to the chorus of praise for the excellent reading :)
-
The point is, there's nothing to be gained by not finding out one way or another, if his hunch is correct or not. Knowing is better than not knowing, even - maybe especially - when you don't like what you find out.
But that's not how science works. You don't just come up with a random idea and then test it; such a scattershot approach would lead to little forward motion. You look at the evidence and attempt to form a hypothesis that supports all of the available data, and then find a way to test that hypothesis. In this case, his central thesis, "Exploring is dangerous and therefore it must be aliens," is scientifically flawed on multiple levels. First, many dangerous behaviors are not evolutionarily maladaptive or caused by outside forces. Hunting is more dangerous than being an autotroph, but predation is not caused by parasites. Sex creates the risk of STDs, but sexual reproduction is not caused by parasites. A drive to explore leads to potentially vast rewards, particularly in situations of overcrowding, so it's hardly inimical to the existence of a given species to have a desire for novelty. Secondly, it is much more likely that one of the basic drives of human nature is caused by something inherent to human nature rather than by an outside force; we already know a great deal about neuropsychology, and it makes much more sense to seek an answer for human behavior patterns there than in a hypothetical alien parasite. Thirdly, there is no evidence supporting the existence of an alien parasite. No one has ever seen such a thing, and within the world of this story, the Phages are the first aliens we ever encountered; the chances of these same aliens, the only ones we've discovered in a vast, vast universe, being connected to us by a single parasite with a millennia-long life cycle are vanishingly small.
For example, sunspots and flares *might* be caused by giant, invisible alien ships crashing into the star like moths drawn to a flame, but it is much more likely to be caused by some sort of reaction within the star itself. If we're setting up a study and we have limited funds, we're going to give the money to the guys who say "We're examining the effects of electromagnetism on plasma" than to the guy who says "I'm trying to turn invisible so I can determine how the aliens get past us unseen."
So yes. His funding was revoked quite justifiably because he was wasting money and doing bad science. If we eliminate all the obvious causes and are completely at a loss to explain a particular phenomenon, then sure, we can start trying out the more wackball theories. But it just makes more sense to try the obvious first and either establish or disprove them as the source of whatever phenomenon we're studying.
This is far more thought than really needed to go into this, but it is why I was unhappy with the story-qua-story despite my enjoyment of parasites.
-
He was trying for funding to get supporting data (or try and fail, at least). "Dude, you don't have data to support your hypothesis, so we're not going to give you any money to get data to test it," seems like a pretty circular argument.
But I don't think he even went through the usual channels to try to get the money. Didn't he call up some government official and act like he knew of an emergency? I doubt that helped his credibility any.
Also, I got the impression that a "cure" for the disease he claims he's trying to find would not just cure desire for geographical exploration, but for scientific inquiry. So even if he had any facts to support his idea, and if people actually believed him, I'm not sure he'd get funding for the research that would LITERALLY end all research.
There's your story. Humans are being ground up like hamburger by aliens because we are illogically driven to explore space. Scientist discovers a way to "cure" humanity of it's drive to explore, which would save lives, but would also end scientific pursuit. What does he do? Obviously you would need to deal with Scattercat and Wilson's reservations, but they don't seem like deal breakers.
And, yes the reading was excellent.
And yes, the fishtongue bug is the grosser than the crab egg bug. But I always felt sorry for the crabs who were brain washed into protecting that sneaky, evil barnacle (no, I don't actually know how detrimental the egg bug is to the crabs). I forgot, does the fish tongue bug change the behavior of the fish? Or does the fish "know" he has a bug for a tongue and is just making the best of it?
-
This story reminded me a lot of Radiolab's (factual) episode on parasites, especially the section called "The Scratch". In fact, I kind of wonder if it inspired the story.
Here's a link to it: http://www.radiolab.org/2009/sep/07/ (http://www.radiolab.org/2009/sep/07/)
Yes, I thought so as well. But let's assume Tim drew his inspiration from the same sources as Jad and Robert.
-
For example, sunspots and flares *might* be caused by giant, invisible alien ships crashing into the star like moths drawn to a flame, but it is much more likely to be caused by some sort of reaction within the star itself. If we're setting up a study and we have limited funds, we're going to give the money to the guys who say "We're examining the effects of electromagnetism on plasma" than to the guy who says "I'm trying to turn invisible so I can determine how the aliens get past us unseen."
Scattercat's explanation of the scientific funding is written much better than my own, so I'm just going to point.
And I want to read a story about the alien moth ships. That is awesome.
-
Sign me up for the 'not really a story' camp on this one. I enjoyed it nevertheless, but there was no plot...maybe.
For plot to occur, there must be a change, and there was possibly a change in the narrator, right at the end. There might not have been, either. I think it was intended to be, though.
'Last Line Makes The Story' stories are risky because we westerners (and to some degree easterners as well, though I have not read enough eastern fiction to speak confidently about it) are used to the time honored intro-explanation-reversal-climax-denoument structure of storytelling. To make a few weak analogies, the last bite of the sandwich is not where we expect to find something new, and the last notes of the song are just prolonging the established sense of the piece.
-
Sign me up for the 'not really a story' camp on this one. I enjoyed it nevertheless, but there was no plot...maybe.
For plot to occur, there must be a change, and there was possibly a change in the narrator, right at the end. There might not have been, either. I think it was intended to be, though.
'Last Line Makes The Story' stories are risky because we westerners (and to some degree easterners as well, though I have not read enough eastern fiction to speak confidently about it) are used to the time honored intro-explanation-reversal-climax-denoument structure of storytelling. To make a few weak analogies, the last bite of the sandwich is not where we expect to find something new, and the last notes of the song are just prolonging the established sense of the piece.
I don't necessarily have anything against the final line changing everything, but with this final line I wasn't convinced that anything had changed. He's just had a conversation about parasites causing desire to explore space, it's natural to think about space exploration after that. There's certainly a cause and effect there, but I see it as a "I'm thinking about something I just talked about" relationship, not an infection-symptom relationship. I mean, when I go to the grocery store, and end up listening to a slightly crazed teller explaining to me that the weather has been so strange lately because of government weather experiments, yes I may very well glance at the sky as I leave, but that doesn't mean that I'm convinced of her tale, it's just that having a conversation about weather predictably makes me think about weather.
-
I would have been more interested in seeing the parasites actually played out in action rather than seeing talking heads in a bar. The story broke the rule of "Tell v. show."
I do have to say the reading was excellent, and the idea was excellent. The execution... meh. I would have liked real events with real character change occur rather than talking about the possibility of it.
-
Mmmm, loved this one too.
This is, in my opinion, nearly a classical piece of science fiction.
Think back to the early days of science fiction, where the purpose of the story wasn't (just) to provide the reader with an excellent piece of escapism, but also to put forward an interesting idea, explore certain areas of our civilization that we'd prefer to leave dark or just to simply put out feelers and prepare ourselves for the future.
That I feel is what we have here. A simple story that explores a profound idea. I'm pretty sure that the idea of parasites manipulating us behind the scenes is not exactly new, but it certainly isn't mainstream. And to put it out there like this.... it's makes you stop and think.
Could it be that the whole universe is a vast ultra-organism with intricate interlocking parts that don't make any sense at their own level? Could we simply be the mitochondria in our Solar System with no idea of how it works? (Meaning to say that we are just a smaller part of something much bigger, and we act like this because we are "programmed" to. The act of programming is preformed by the parasites).
In the words of the immortal Douglas Adams:
"All through my life I've had this strange unaccountable feeling that something was going on in the world, and that no one would tell me what it was.
"No, that's just perfectly normal paranoia, everyone in the universe has that."
(Arthur Dent and Slartibartfast on Magrathea, Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy, the original radio dramas, Primary Phase)
Anyway, two thumbs up for a thought-provoking story.
-
Good reading by Matt. Is that your native accent, Matt, or did you put one on?
It's a little NY, a little stereotypical Jew, a little Gilbert Gottfried (which may be redundant)...it just came out when I did that voice. Actually, I was worried that it didn't really fit with a scientist character, but it was too fun to stop once I got going. I'm from Western PA and I can do some killer Pitsburghese, but my mom would have slapped me silly if I had grown up with that as my natural accent. Natural for me is more "Lazy Ohioan." Too much rap music...
-
parasite fun fact: there is a barnacle that will attach itself to a male crab, drill through the shell, grow tendrils throughout the crab's body, and secrete female crab hormones until the crab believes itself to be female and the barnacle to be its eggs. The new mother will die defending the barnacle from predators.
That goddamned thing that severs and becomes some poor fish's tongue still wins the creep-factor for parasites.
That's bad, but only number one if you've never YouTube searched "maggot breast" or "spider bite infection".
-
Mmmm, loved this one too.
This is, in my opinion, nearly a classical piece of science fiction.
Think back to the early days of science fiction, where the purpose of the story wasn't (just) to provide the reader with an excellent piece of escapism, but also to put forward an interesting idea, explore certain areas of our civilization that we'd prefer to leave dark or just to simply put out feelers and prepare ourselves for the future.
That I feel is what we have here. A simple story that explores a profound idea. I'm pretty sure that the idea of parasites manipulating us behind the scenes is not exactly new, but it certainly isn't mainstream. And to put it out there like this.... it's makes you stop and think.
Could it be that the whole universe is a vast ultra-organism with intricate interlocking parts that don't make any sense at their own level? Could we simply be the mitochondria in our Solar System with no idea of how it works? (Meaning to say that we are just a smaller part of something much bigger, and we act like this because we are "programmed" to. The act of programming is preformed by the parasites).
In the words of the immortal Douglas Adams:
"All through my life I've had this strange unaccountable feeling that something was going on in the world, and that no one would tell me what it was.
"No, that's just perfectly normal paranoia, everyone in the universe has that."
(Arthur Dent and Slartibartfast on Magrathea, Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy, the original radio dramas, Primary Phase)
Anyway, two thumbs up for a thought-provoking story.
It certainly fits one style of classic science fiction, with the talking heads explaining ideas and whatnot. But... I never really liked that style all that much. Among other things, it tends not to age well because once the idea loses it's novelty the story has nothing left to offer. If this story'd been a new and profound idea, it might've swept me up this time through. As you said, the idea probably isn't mainstream, but neither is this story, really. I think the same niche group that is likely to have come across this idea elsewhere has a huge overlap with the niche group that listens to science fiction podcasts.
-
I liked this one, but as other have said it was pretty much just a retelling of current science with a little extra added to it, i would have liked to see the idea expanded on more.
-
Didn't the premise of the toxoplasmosis effect get turned around from 'makes you less inhibited' to 'damps down your will to explore'? Otherwise, interesting idea, although I hope the failure to get research funding doesn't turn all scientists into bar flies who sound like 1950s US journos! :D
-
... The story broke the rule of "Tell v. show."...
Hell, this story is one big EXAMPLE of how to "tell" and not "show".
-
I have to admit that this story didn't really do it for me. I'm unusually tolerant of stories with weird structures, but this one didn't do it for me. There were a lot of neat ideas, cleverly presented, but I didn't have anyone. I respect that this is a proud tradition in science fiction, but it's not one I really like.
That said.
I really do like the ideas presented in this piece. I'm currently imagining a fantasy setting in which the magical powers are granted by a parasite infestation.
-
I really do like the ideas presented in this piece. I'm currently imagining a fantasy setting in which the magical powers are granted by a parasite infestation.
Like the Goa'uld?
Remember, any sufficiently advanced technology can be perceived as magic.
WARNING! The following will only be understood by Stargate fans.
Plus, without the Goa'uld one would not have Naqahdah in their blood and could not use the technology.
Granted the Goa'uld are referred to as symbiots, but only if you are a Jaffa. Otherwise the relationship is parasitic. True the host gains phenomenal strength and longevity, but the host is actually a prisoner in its own body, without control of anything. Thus rendering the relationship parasitic.
I am not a biologist, but iirc the definition of a parasitic relationship is that the host gains nothing, even loses from the relationship, and the parasite only gains. One could successfully argue that in the case of the Goa'uld all benefits to the host are superseded by the fact that the host has no control over the body.
-
I really do like the ideas presented in this piece. I'm currently imagining a fantasy setting in which the magical powers are granted by a parasite infestation.
One could successfully argue that in the case of the Goa'uld all benefits to the host are superseded by the fact that the host has no control over the body.
Agreed. Plus you have to put up with being an ancient Egyptian incapable of using contractions in language. B'ummer.
-
I really do like the ideas presented in this piece. I'm currently imagining a fantasy setting in which the magical powers are granted by a parasite infestation.
Like the Goa'uld?
Remember, any sufficiently advanced technology can be perceived as magic.
WARNING! The following will only be understood by Stargate fans.
Plus, without the Goa'uld one would not have Naqahdah in their blood and could not use the technology.
Granted the Goa'uld are referred to as symbiots, but only if you are a Jaffa. Otherwise the relationship is parasitic. True the host gains phenomenal strength and longevity, but the host is actually a prisoner in its own body, without control of anything. Thus rendering the relationship parasitic.
I am not a biologist, but iirc the definition of a parasitic relationship is that the host gains nothing, even loses from the relationship, and the parasite only gains. One could successfully argue that in the case of the Goa'uld all benefits to the host are superseded by the fact that the host has no control over the body.
On the other hand, from a Darwinian perspective, this could be considered a beneficial relationship. After all, from a biological perspective, "control of your body" doesn't really matter if your super strength and longevity lets you have tons of babies and conquer worlds.
-
This was an interesting idea. I came over here from Podcastle, so I've been remiss in my science fiction education and the idea of mind-altering parasites was a new one by me. I would like to say the idea did not leave me quivering in paranoia, but that would be a lie. Sure, my old lit theory professors would debate whether this was an actual "story," but it's a good piece of writing and it made me think anyway. Also, more kudos to Matt for the great narration.
Now I have a decision to make: I can look up the other parasites folks have helpfully mentioned in this thread, or I can take the blue pill and live a life less disturbed by creepy science...
-
Now I have a decision to make: I can look up the other parasites folks have helpfully mentioned in this thread, or I can take the blue pill and live a life less disturbed by creepy science...
Blue pill!! Blue pill!!
-
... The story broke the rule of "Tell v. show."...
Hell, this story is one big EXAMPLE of how to "tell" and not "show".
God, rules suck. We only really need a handful of them to get by, the rest always seem to fall on some convoluted bureaucratic spectrum between 'generally relevant/beneficial' and 'thinking hurt-- me follow blinking arrow now.'
Show vs. tell is a catch phrase that I'm convinced has ruined more good stories being read than bettered bad stories being written. A novel, novella, short story, flash story-- no one-size catch phrase fits all. You can get away with anything if you can get away with it.
-
... The story broke the rule of "Tell v. show."...
Hell, this story is one big EXAMPLE of how to "tell" and not "show".
God, rules suck. We only really need a handful of them to get by, the rest always seem to fall on some convoluted bureaucratic spectrum between 'generally relevant/beneficial' and 'thinking hurt-- me follow blinking arrow now.'
Show vs. tell is a catch phrase that I'm convinced has ruined more good stories being read than bettered bad stories being written. A novel, novella, short story, flash story-- no one-size catch phrase fits all. You can get away with anything if you can get away with it.
The thing is, "show vs. tell" doesn't even apply here - to the degree that the rule is valuable, it applies to third person omniscient narrators, not to dialogue. Characters are always allowed to tell other characters stuff.
-
It doesn't even necessarily apply to exposition (although it does to a certain extent). It's mostly a rule against telling is what the characters are thinking and feeling and what the reader should be feeling. Sure this story could have worked by showing us how the parasites worked, but that would be an entirely different story.
-
I liked the ideas in this story, but it didn't quite hang together for me. Surely parasites don't sit down and plan how to best get into a sheep's gut (or wherever their personal goal may be). Over time, evolution means that the parasites that are most successful at reaching their goal, breed more, and pass on their characteristics, etc. This development relies on success. These parasites have so far had one success only at getting humans eaten by Phages. How have they bred to this evolutionary stage? Or is the point just that they are very intelligent, self-aware and near immortal (because if they have to breed in an alien's stomach, this must still be the same generation that arrived here whenever), and have been stranded on Earth for hundreds of years trying to get back home (to a Phage's gut)?
-
I liked the ideas in this story, but it didn't quite hang together for me. Surely parasites don't sit down and plan how to best get into a sheep's gut (or wherever their personal goal may be). Over time, evolution means that the parasites that are most successful at reaching their goal, breed more, and pass on their characteristics, etc. This development relies on success. These parasites have so far had one success only at getting humans eaten by Phages. How have they bred to this evolutionary stage? Or is the point just that they are very intelligent, self-aware and near immortal (because if they have to breed in an alien's stomach, this must still be the same generation that arrived here whenever), and have been stranded on Earth for hundreds of years trying to get back home (to a Phage's gut)?
It was these questions that prompted my original post. (top of this page)
I surmise that (based on the theory presented in the story) we are part of a macro-organism the size of the universe, or less ambitiously, we are living time at a far faster rate than other beings. In either case, the span of time that humanity has been around for is less than one generation for this cosmic parasite. In which case the people that got eaten by the phages have passed the parasite on to its next stage of life, and it can reproduce.
-
... The story broke the rule of "Tell v. show."...
Hell, this story is one big EXAMPLE of how to "tell" and not "show".
God, rules suck. We only really need a handful of them to get by, the rest always seem to fall on some convoluted bureaucratic spectrum between 'generally relevant/beneficial' and 'thinking hurt-- me follow blinking arrow now.'
Show vs. tell is a catch phrase that I'm convinced has ruined more good stories being read than bettered bad stories being written. A novel, novella, short story, flash story-- no one-size catch phrase fits all. You can get away with anything if you can get away with it.
Yes! And the "rules" of writing, are not so much rules as "general guidelines to help noobs not sound like noobs", primarily to be more likely to push a story past the slush. Pratt is no noob. He knows how to write, and write well, and one benefit of having a well-known name and wide publishing history is that getting your name past slush is less of an obstacle. I am certain that he knows these general guidelines, and has made the choices he made consciously. This story wasn't amazing, but I'd say that's just because it wasn't my thing, not because Pratt has broken a rule that writers are bound by.
-
Loving the debate about showing v telling, rules v noobie constrainers and the rest. What really matters is the skill of an author in telling a tale, however that is constructed. When you read it yourself, it tends to liven up if there's dialogue bumping it along. But if it's read - and who has not had a story read to them - it's about the telling and the teller, with dialogue taking second place. I often have a different view of a story depending on whether I hear it or read it and it's causing me to think about writing for podcasts as a different craft from writing for personal reading.
-
a little Gilbert Gottfried
That's exactly the voice I got, and I thought it was awesome. Your reading, and the fact that it was Tim Pratt writing the story, made this more than just a glorified wikipedia post on parasites. I did say to myself "Hmm, I wonder if Tim wrote this while Heather was pregnant? Her doctor told them about toxoplasmosis, Tim went to the internet, got lost in one of those tv tropes/wikipedia/whatever rabbit holes that happens to the best of us Tim said 'Hey, that might make the basis for a good story',out came this story. Not quite up to his usual great stuff, but not a bad story.
-
This story reminded me a lot of Radiolab's (factual) episode on parasites, especially the section called "The Scratch". In fact, I kind of wonder if it inspired the story.
Here's a link to it: http://www.radiolab.org/2009/sep/07/ (http://www.radiolab.org/2009/sep/07/)
I couldn't help but think that as well.
Really, this was not much of a story. The issue wasn't that it broke "show don't tell." There was no character arc, not conflict. Or what conflict there was existed so far out on the edges that it hardly mattered. Contained in the story was a great science idea but there was nothing behind it other than stating and clarifying the science.
-
Here's an interesting blog post (http://www.epjournal.net/blog/2011/02/why-are-there-so-many-girl-spiders/) on yet another way parasites affect the behaviour of their hosts. In some species of spiders, bacteria cause a greater proportion of a mother spider's eggs to be female than they would be otherwise.
-
I have to point out that the parasite is a lot more plausible than some of you seem to think.
It doesn't actually have to be extraterrestrial to make us want to go into space. It just has to make us desire exploration and seeking new things and new places. To go where no man has gone before, etc.
Such a trait could be desirable in any species that might have tightly defined territories, it could be evolutionarily advantageous to make people want to leave their normal territories. And some species of ape are pretty territorial I think?
Damnit Jim, I'm a microbiologist, not a primatologist. Once we talk about monkeys, I'm lost.
P.S. I am sort of *FORBIDDEN WORD DERIVED FROM THE SIMPSONS* on the story overall. It wasn't a very good story I think, but the dialogue was snappy and it was blessedly short. I won't remember this very well, but I didn't lose interest either.
-
But wasn't the point that it was making us want to go into space in order to specifically get into the Phage's gut? Perhaps I misunderstood...
-
I think the point of making humans explore was to get it into some other animal's gut. The example in the story was exactly that, an example of this in action.
-
I think the point of making humans explore was to get it into some other animal's gut. The example in the story was exactly that, an example of this in action.
And the reason that makes no sense is that we haven't had enough interaction with extraterrestrials for parasites to evolve to use both of our species as transmission vectors, hence my dismissal of the crazy parasitologist's hypothesis.
-
but it would still work with regard exploration on earth. Maybe the extend to which humanity is exploring in the story is too much for the parasite. It's being screwed over my its own nature combined with humanities capacity for intelligence. When working on species that cannot explore beyond their local area because they physically cant, the parasite is successful, but the fact that humanity is intelligent enough to break those usual bounds means that the parasite becomes less effective.
Of course I'm going off script a little with regards to the story, but I think the idea of a parasite that forces exploration is plausible. Perhaps this story simply failed to convey the idea accurately. I can't remember it ever being stated the extra-terrestrial exploration was the intention of the parasite, just exploration in itself.
-
The idea of a parasite causing a particular drive in humanity is not impossible. However, before we go looking for a parasite, we should rule out the possibility of an innate cause. We don't need parasites to cause us to want to eat or mate, do we? And it turns out there are quite logical reasons why an enjoyment of novelty would be helpful for an intelligent, hunting omnivore. Therefore it's not a good point of research even if we limit ourselves to the strictly terrestrial.
Now, if we had a subsection of the population showing abnormal or pathological preference for novelty - say, refusing to eat the same food twice, or being unable to remain stationary long enough to mate successfully - at that point we might start positing outside causes and trying to look for them. However, there would have to be a specific population; individual weirdness is impressively variable, and there's always the possibility of good old homegrown psychopathology.
Basically, if we know there is a parasite, we can try to determine what effects it has (toxoplasmosis), and if we see truly aberrant behavior, a parasite might be one of the theories we posit to explain it ("Hey, that ant is climbing grass stems instead of going home for the night.") Neither of those fit the parameters of the parasitologist's theory in the story, and thus I was dissatisfied with the plot qua plot, since the entire story is just the explication of this unsound theory and then a vaguely suggestive ending.
-
agreed. It's an overcomplicated explanation to a phenomenon that needs no such explanation.
-
but it would still work with regard exploration on earth.
How? By enough humans getting eaten by tigers or another type of predator?
What I don't like about this type of "Just-So" story is that it helps spread a rather distorted view of evolution - that it is a kind of variant on Intelligent Design. There is no intelligence behind evolution; those that are best suited to their environment survive longer and breed more and therefore pass on more of their characteristics, which therefore over time, become more common. When I was a kid I found evolution really hard to understand because it was explained in terms like "The giraffe evolved to have a long neck so it could reach the leaves on high trees" and I would ask "But HOW does the giraffe know to grow its neck longer?". It doesn't know; it's just the ones with shorter necks are more likely to die from starvation and less likely to breed. To me, this story relies on a misunderstanding of the fundamentals of evolution.
-
Could you explain how the story relies on such a distorted view (not saying you're wrong, it's just that I'm a history student, so science isn't my strong point)
-
Could you explain how the story relies on such a distorted view (not saying you're wrong, it's just that I'm a history student, so science isn't my strong point)
I'm willing to say he is wrong actually.
Also, humans don't need to be eaten, such a parasite could evolve out of a need for humans to poop further away from home, for example.
Kanasta has the proper view of evolution, and I likewise am frequently annoyed by people assuming there is an end goal or plan beyond have-more-sex and make-sure-your-babies-survive-to-have-more-sex.
But the story, and the concept of this hypothetical parasite are compatible with this correct view of evolution. As I tried to point out above, the parasite doesn't have to actually be driving us into space. An efficient parasite doesn't kill the host, but keeps it alive long enough to spread. Too many parasites in one host are more likely to cause illness (they compete for resources within the body), so a parasite that is the first of it's kind inside a give host individual has an advantage over a parasite inside a host with others of its kind, as that animal will be able to carry more of that parasite, drop more eggs that match its exact genetics, while not being much more likely to die.
So it is to the benefit of parasites to spread into as many new individuals as possible. Which is why most tend to get pooped out as larva, rather than living fat and happy in one animal for all time. Lots of hosts is a good plan.
We know that several parasites are able to influence motivations and tendencies and various mental functions of their hosts. An advantageous (for the parasite) change to host behavior is just as selected for as anything else. So if exploration could be advantageous as I pointed out earlier, then it could very well be selected for.
I don't recall the story informing us that the parasites were extraterrestrial, just that the drunken parasitologist thought their purpose was for us to end up in alien stomachs. But that doesn't need to imply design. I've heard plenty scientists anthropomorphize the shit out of things they know aren't sentient. Up to and including the desires of electrons. I took it as just a thing he said. The parasites don't need to have planned for this, that is just the desire they ended up looking like they caused.
Weird reasoning I guess, but it really didn't strike me as preplanned.
Oh, and any parasite with enough distribution through our population to effect the growth of civilization wouldn't cause deaths or extremes of behavior or whatever as Scattercat suggested is silly. If we are that highly infected, how would we see it as extreme. It would just be that normal was much less adventurous than the human average appears to be. Maybe extremes would have cropped up in Mesopotamia or a cave somewhere, but certainly not noticeable today. And likely such a drive would have been helpful to humans too (societally if not geneticall), right up to the point where we got eaten by aliens.
Sure, it is a simpler to assume humans evolved that drive on our own. But maybe parasites made it stronger. Or maybe this makes a better story. I don't know that I'd have given this guy funding if I were on the NSF board, but I don't have the problems with the story a lot of you guys seem to.
-
Sure, what I mean is, the real life parasites don't get together and plan how to make an ant climb a blade of grass, then mix up some chemical in a lab that makes ants more adventurous. A creature with a parasite in them may be affected in many ways, I guess it's something to do with biochemical interactions but I don't know the actual mechanics. But having a foreign organism in you is going to have some kind of effect.
For example, there's a parasite in Africa called the guinea worm that infects people via drinking water. People get infected when they drink standing water containing a tiny water flea that is infected with the even tinier larvae of the Guinea worm. Over the course of a year in the human body, the immature worms pierce the intestinal wall, grow to adulthood, and mate. The males die, and the females make their way through the body, maturing to a length of as much as 3 feet, and ending up near the surface of the skin, usually in the lower limbs. The worms cause swelling and painful, burning blisters. To soothe the burning, sufferers tend to go into the water, where the blisters burst, allowing the worm to emerge and release a new generation of millions of larvae. In the water, the larvae are swallowed by small water fleas, and the cycle begins again when someone collects drinking water from the river.
The guinea worm didn't plan to cause great pain so that the host had to seek relief in a river. But the worms that reached adulthood at a smaller size probably caused less pain. So maybe their larvae would just be wiped away when the blister burst, and they wouldn't always get the chance to reproduce. SO only the larger ones got released into the river, and reproduced, generation over generation passing on their attribute of being large and painful, until you get a worm that changes people's behaviour in an obvious way, by causing them so much discomfort that they are forced to go where the worm "wants" them to. But it didn't plan it. It gradually evolved to have that effect on humans.
For this story's premise to work, generations and generations of humans would have had to be infected, some of them been eaten by aliens, some of them not eaten and their parasites died, some of them eaten by predators not quite so welcoming for the parasites to reproduce in, and the most successful parasites (whose host were eaten by aliens) would have reproduced the most, then the parasites from these aliens reinfected more humans etc etc.
PS Looks like I was writing this at the same time of Umbrageofsnow! I would agree with what you, apart from this story (to me ) says that the whole point is getting the humans eaten. Maybe it isn't but then if it isn't it's a bit of a boring story! I actually prefer the story about the parasites plotting to get humans eaten by aliens, it just bothers me on a scientific level. *sigh* I liked this story until I thought about it too much, now I just don't know... ::)
-
Three cheers for overthinking things to death! It's my specialty.
It is kind of neat if they plan things. You know this whole thing would work out if we were to assume sufficiently anthropomorphic aliens. What if we have a Star Trek-like progenitor race, which, once upon a time effectively seeded the galaxy with similar life? (It's a common justification for using Forehead Aliens on TV). And what better kind of citation is there?
If enough species had related brain chemistry, then either the parasite could be seeded through space deliberately, either to attract food or to encourage expansion by the progenitor race, or it could have evolved such a cycle given sufficiently many inhabited worlds and a means for ending up floating free in space again to colonize new ones. (Assuming enormous timescales).
My attempt at justification.
-
@Umbrage
That would have been a cool story. Unfortunately, all we have right here is the bare idea that could lead to that story.
It's a good idea.
I don't think it got the treatment it deserved.
I agree with what someone said above, that this felt like Mr. Pratt read about Toxoplasmosis, went, "Woah, cool!" and did this up really quickly, like a treatment. I've read stories of his where he did really think about things and came up with all kinds of awesome implications and subtleties, so I know he could have done more with this. Which is why I, personally, was disappointed; I get all excited when I see that name but sometimes it just kind of... well, does what this story did.
-
I like the Forehead Aliens explanation.
Or, the parasites and the Phages are knowingly symbiotic. The parasites are nearly immortal and the Phages are Galactic Gourmets. In return for regular tasty snacks, the Phages allow the parasites to breed in their gut.
-
I enjoyed the story, but it felt a bit gimmicky. The OMG-moment that goes with "the human race is just a vehicle to spread XYZ", where XYZ is religion, memes, culture, parasites, etc... has been stated before, and as such it didn't really resonate with me. Basically it came down to: if it isn't true, then it doesn't really mean much, and if it is true, there's nothing we can really do about it. Either way, it's not provable. So, meh....
-
(snip)
Oh, and any parasite with enough distribution through our population to effect the growth of civilization wouldn't cause deaths or extremes of behavior or whatever as Scattercat suggested is silly. If we are that highly infected, how would we see it as extreme. It would just be that normal was much less adventurous than the human average appears to be. Maybe extremes would have cropped up in Mesopotamia or a cave somewhere, but certainly not noticeable today. And likely such a drive would have been helpful to humans too (societally if not geneticall), right up to the point where we got eaten by aliens.
Sure, it is a simpler to assume humans evolved that drive on our own. But maybe parasites made it stronger. Or maybe this makes a better story. I don't know that I'd have given this guy funding if I were on the NSF board, but I don't have the problems with the story a lot of you guys seem to.
I don't think that Scattercat is saying "the human drive to explore cannot possibly be caused by viruses", only that "there's no reason in this story or otherwise for us to consider that a likely conclusion". The parasitologist's argument is mostly based on his assumption that exploration is not evolutionarily advantageous, which as Scattercat pointed out is a faulty assumption. Basing the rest of his reasoning on a false assumption means that all of the rest is questionable. Exploration may be dangerous to an individual, but is generally not dangerous to our existence as a species. When proto-humans were isolated to a small geographic region it makes sense to explore and spread out to ensure that population growth doesn't deplete local resources, more resources per capita means that more breeding can occur, thus strengthening our evolutionary thread.
Also, I wouldn't say that desire for exploration is even a species-wide trait. It's more of a random individual trait. Me, I'm quite risk-averse. Sure, I have done some traveling but I generally travel to places that I already know about and can ascertain to be relatively safe for me to travel to. I don't have any major desire to explore space, and if I lived in times where there were some major undiscovered land frontier I'm certain that I'd be quite happy to let someone explore it first and perhaps I'd visit later when things were more settled. And that mix of personalities may be part of our evolutionary advantage as well--if EVERYONE wants to go find new places all the time, then we wouldn't have permanent cities which also have an evolutionary advantage of giving more solid stronghold against weather and other dangers. But with the added safety of cities tends to come crime and disease, so the parasitologist could just as easily argue that our desire to stay in one place was caused by a virus (which would be likewise based only on conjecture and no actual scientific reasoning).
-
Also, I wouldn't say that desire for exploration is even a species-wide trait. It's more of a random individual trait. Me, I'm quite risk-averse. Sure, I have done some traveling but I generally travel to places that I already know about and can ascertain to be relatively safe for me to travel to. I don't have any major desire to explore space, and if I lived in times where there were some major undiscovered land frontier I'm certain that I'd be quite happy to let someone explore it first and perhaps I'd visit later when things were more settled.
You, apparently, have not been infected with the parasite.
-
You, apparently, have not been infected with the parasite.
I am the parasite.
-
I think the point of making humans explore was to get it into some other animal's gut. The example in the story was exactly that, an example of this in action.
And the reason that makes no sense is that we haven't had enough interaction with extraterrestrials for parasites to evolve to use both of our species as transmission vectors, hence my dismissal of the crazy parasitologist's hypothesis.
I kind of envisioned the human race as being analogous not to ants, but rather to *one infected ant*. So, the alien parasite didn't evolve to use humans as a transmission vector any more than that other parasite evolved to use one specific ant as a transmission vector. Instead, there are millions (billions?) of planets that have been infected with the alien parasites, which have evolved to use whatever native species is available to get back into space and complete their life cycle.
That's the way I understood it, anyway.
-
Um... that's not how evolution works. You can't evolve the ability to adapt to *anything*. (If you know how, please let us know. I suspect it involves waterbears.)
-
Um... that's not how evolution works. You can't evolve the ability to adapt to *anything*. (If you know how, please let us know. I suspect it involves waterbears.)
Not entirely true - the parasites could have evolved to have a short breeding cycle, and have a biochemistry that encourages mutation (maybe instead of DNA their genetic information is coded on something very volatile). In other words, they could have evolved to encourage mutation, which would mean that future generations would adapt faster.
However, that's not compatible with the fact that the parasites in this story were very clearly playing a very long game - if they mutate beyond recognition before their hosts get eaten by aliens, that's no good.
Possibly the parasites are themselves not one organism but two - a symbiosys between the actual parasite, which is very genetically stable and has a life cycle that takes millions of years and involves being seeded on planets, encouraging space exploration, and getting re-eaten - and a intermediate host which is prone to mutations and adapts very quickly to its environment.
-
Not entirely true - the parasites could have evolved to have a short breeding cycle, and have a biochemistry that encourages mutation (maybe instead of DNA their genetic information is coded on something very volatile).
Two hosts idea is neat. SF writers love going to this "more versatile than DNA" well, almost as much as the triple helix (whatever the hell that would mean, molecularly). But not only would DNA make it easier to interact with life on Earth (assuming seeding here), but you can have a much less stable genome while still being DNA based. This is how bacteria have a less stable genome than chimps, for example:
Use a more error-prone DNA Polymerase. It's that simple.
-
I think any molecule unstable enough to adapt to conditions on any given world featuring life of some kind would be too unstable to actually manage to pass on meaningful information from one generation to the next.
Could make for an interesting story idea, though.
-
I think any molecule unstable enough to adapt to conditions on any given world featuring life of some kind would be too unstable to actually manage to pass on meaningful information from one generation to the next.
Could make for an interesting story idea, though.
In some ways, it wouldn't be about the adaptability of the molecule and more about the durability of the creature. Given enough time - and a form tough enough to survive whatever - DNA will eventually adapt to fill any available niche. Look around you: that's pretty much what happened here.
I mean, in case you didn't notice, Earth isn't exactly friendly to life. We drink liquid so caustic it can eventually degrade metal and stone and breathe an atmosphere that is similarly caustic (not to mention incredibly volatile). We walk around absorbing tons of radiation from the sky. In order to survive this, we have evolved bodies so tough that we regularly consume other creature's waste matter and defensive toxins for fun.
I don't think you need to improve the adaptability of DNA at all.
-
But the positing statement was the idea that the parasite in question seeded itself on millions of worlds in order to drive those species to space so they could be eaten. The diversity of life notwithstanding, I don't think you could lump all life on Earth into one single grouping other than "life on Earth." For all the DNA out there, there's a lot we don't have in common with, for instance, anemones or bats. For one species to be able to adapt to an infinite variety of worlds would require some pretty amazing adaptability traits, enough so that I don't see where it would end up behaving in similar ways at all.
-
For all the DNA out there, there's a lot we don't have in common with, for instance, anemones or bats. For one species to be able to adapt to an infinite variety of worlds would require some pretty amazing adaptability traits, enough so that I don't see where it would end up behaving in similar ways at all.
Humans don't share a lot of physical characteristics with anemones (in comparison, we share tons with bats!), or, say nematodes. However, out of the approximately 20,100 protein-coding genes that the nematode species Caenorhabditis elegans has, humans share approximately 7000 (http://www.genomebc.ca/portfolio/projects/health-projects/completed/the-nematode-as-a-model-organism-a-comprehensive-study-of-gene-k/)*, which is a pretty significant proportion. The proportion of shared genes with bacteria or plants is smaller yet, but still, I believe, detectably large.
If an off-world parasite could adapt to DNA at all (which is where I think the sticking point of this story is), I think it could adapt to pretty much any "life on Earth."
*I think. I'm not entirely certain I'm reading my sources correctly. I do know that I've heard that it's a significant proportion of shared genes.
-
If an off-world parasite could adapt to DNA at all (which is where I think the sticking point of this story is), I think it could adapt to pretty much any "life on Earth."
That was my point, though. We have all this DNA in common with these really weird local lifeforms, and we sure as hell can't do most of the things they can do, and in many cases we can't even eat each other. A parasite from another planet would have a hard time adapting to life on Earth, let alone be able to adapt to *any* ecosystem based on *any* mode of life using *any* available molecules.
-
A parasite from another planet would have a hard time adapting to life on Earth, let alone be able to adapt to *any* ecosystem based on *any* mode of life using *any* available molecules.
What if it's a universe where panspermia predominates?
Honestly though, I don't think we can say definitively what alien life can and cannot do. There are plenty of very strange critters here on Earth that thrive in "inhospitable" environments, survive the vacuum of space, etc. Who knows what else could evolve....
-
A parasite from another planet would have a hard time adapting to life on Earth, let alone be able to adapt to *any* ecosystem based on *any* mode of life using *any* available molecules.
Yep, the universe is a hard old place. That's why that vast majority of species and ecosystems which the virus can't grab a hold of aren't going anywhere. All they're doing is waiting until the niche they're holed up in is wiped out. It's only the rare ones that are driven by this wild hare that spread across the universe.
To put it simply, the virus is omnipresent because it gives its hosts such an evolutionary edge.
-
Found this comic today that reminded me of this story/thread:
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/captain_higgins
The Oatmeal has some funny stuff. Some very wrong stuff as well. But mostly funny.
-
I'm a huge Tim Pratt fan, so you have to believe me when I say this one bored me. Maybe it's because I just got off the phone with my uncle-in-law, who's one of those who fully believe Obama is a Muslim spy. All I heard was a guy going off on a drunken rant. I love Pratt's stories, but this one fell flat on me. Oh well...can't win them all.
-
A good story, I give it a thumbs up. :)
-
Today's SMBC uses the exact same premise of this story to take the piss out of Astrophysicists
http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2331#comic
-
Today's SMBC uses the exact same premise of this story to take the piss out of Astrophysicists
http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2331#comic
I tweeted Zach this morning, directing him to the story link.
-
A parasite from another planet would have a hard time adapting to life on Earth, let alone be able to adapt to *any* ecosystem based on *any* mode of life using *any* available molecules.
Reading through this conversation made me think of what might be the most volatile "creature" on Earth, the virus family that form Influenza. They essentially swarm across our planet on a yearly basis different versions taking precidence and co-existing and fighting one another for supremacy. Every year we meet a different virus, they share certain characteristics and we can identify if this is a virus of the 5b or 2a family but we're pretty much lucky when we predict the right virus for our vaccine.
A parasite, more complex, that can adapt to any planet and species is certainly a pretty far stretch, but considering the million or billion year old virus of influenza I think there is room for doubt. One concept I've toyed with is a parasite that functions in the way that a retrovirus does. It is only a small piece of DNA which writes itself into hosts and creates new versions of each species in which they are now one of the parasites and spread it through mating and such. Certainly not whats being implied in this story, but a concept I'm fairly fond of.
-
Today's SMBC uses the exact same premise of this story to take the piss out of Astrophysicists
http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2331#comic
I tweeted Zach this morning, directing him to the story link.
Oh, cool. I hoped someone would. I considered it, then didn't get to it.
-
i've been quoting facts from this out the yazoo. hope there's some truth to them. ;D