Escape Artists

The Lounge at the End of the Universe => Gallimaufry => Topic started by: Russell Nash on March 22, 2007, 07:39:25 PM

Title: Neoconservatism
Post by: Russell Nash on March 22, 2007, 07:39:25 PM
And Neo-con is a meaningless word ignorantly used by the many Neo-dems who, in their neonatal extrusion from their sequestered world, suddenly realized there are other viewpoints out there. Next time, tell me about the movie instead of ruining your credibility by repeating the neo-talking points contained within a narrow band of neo-aspersions.

Neocon–short for Neoconservative–is a meaningless word used by the people who founded and/or are currently part of the movement. The American Enterprise Institute (http://www.aei.org) is a conservative think tank considered the center of Neoconservatism. Fellows of the Institute include Lynne V. Cheney–Dick's wife–, Newt Gingrich–former Republican Speaker of the House–, and Fred Thompson–Republican canidate for president.

A quick Google search of the website brings up 272 uses of the term Neocon including a page about the book The Neocon Reader with a link to Amazon.

The Institute's website states that the Institute is proud of the number of Neocons in the White House.

The Institute was also one of the earliest and most vocal proponents of the war and only earlier this year stopped vocally calling for the invasion of Iran.

Title: Another Politics Thread
Post by: torchape on March 23, 2007, 03:35:15 PM
I never heard the word "neocon" until after Bush's first election win. The reason I consider "neocon" as a meaningless word is that conservatives aren't new; there is no movement among the majority of those who call themselves conservatives. That is just my opinion based on nothing but impressions. I checked this morning for the origin of neocon and it turns out, according to article called "The Neocon Slur" (Dec 3, 2003) at Dean's World website http://www.deanesmay.com/archives/005616.html (http://www.deanesmay.com/archives/005616.html), "neocon" began as a slur directed at some in the 1970s who defected from left-wing attitudes and began to accept more conservative ideas. I don't know why some have adopted "neocon" as a descriptive term for all conservatives. I'd like to see a third party climb from the present political fire and straddle the middle. Polarization has left many of us wondering why we are beginning to feel alienated.
Title: Another Politics Thread
Post by: Russell Nash on March 23, 2007, 05:46:25 PM
I never heard the word "neocon" until after Bush's first election win. The reason I consider "neocon" as a meaningless word is that conservatives aren't new; there is no movement among the majority of those who call themselves conservatives. That is just my opinion based on nothing but impressions. I checked this morning for the origin of neocon and it turns out, according to article called "The Neocon Slur" (Dec 3, 2003) at Dean's World website http://www.deanesmay.com/archives/005616.html (http://www.deanesmay.com/archives/005616.html), "neocon" began as a slur directed at some in the 1970s who defected from left-wing attitudes and began to accept more conservative ideas. I don't know why some have adopted "neocon" as a descriptive term for all conservatives. I'd like to see a third party climb from the present political fire and straddle the middle. Polarization has left many of us wondering why we are beginning to feel alienated.


It's not used to mean all conservatives. It is now used to talk about the people who follow the ideas of the American Enterprise Institute. These aren't traditional conservatives, but they are the conservatives represented by this Bush White House. Ironically they consider the first Bush White House to have been too liberal.

The Liberal-Conservative Scale goes from Hippy to Liberal to Moderate Liberal to Moderate to Moderate Conservative to Conservative to Neocon.

You're not a Neocon unless you're a Gay bashing, Democracy exporting through force, Intelligent Design pushing, Deficit Spending, Prayer in School, Anti-Stem Cell Research Conservative.

This was the problem with everyone who didn't support the president being aggressively labeled "Liberal". The president was so far to one side that evereybody except the biggest Neocon was getting painted with the same Liberal brush.

The famous examination of NPR for liberal bias was subject to this. An ex-chief fundraiser for the Republican Party listened to three shows on NPR for over a month. Anyone who said a single thing critisizing the president was counted as liberal. This included Sen. John McCain Republican of Arizona, Representive Doug Bereuter Republican of Nebraska, and Gen. Anthony Zinni Special Envoy to Isreal and Palestine under G.W.Bush.
Title: Another Politics Thread
Post by: lowky on March 23, 2007, 06:33:37 PM

I'd like to see a third party climb from the present political fire and straddle the middle. Polarization has left many of us wondering why we are beginning to feel alienated.


But the problem lies in the fact that due to Corporate lobbying and Interests being served by both parties, that America has basically become a 1 party system masquerading as a two party system.  There should be laws against former politicians becoming lobbyists, as they just already know too many people in power and too many of those people either a)respond via cronyism or b) feel they owe the lobbyists favors, for political favors done in the past.  There is a reason Americans voted for term limits, and with politicians becoming lobbyists, term limits have become a moot point.  I say we need to go over the entire constitution, and essentially return it to the bill of rights, with a few changes, such as elimination of slavery, women's sufferrage, etc.  I think if people like Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were alive today, they would be horrified at what has become of their ideals and/or talking revolution as much as they did in 1776.

To quote Jello Biafra: I pledge alleigance to the flag of the United Snakes of America, One nation under oil with liberty and justice for all who can afford it.  I love my country but I hate what it has become.
[edit] [/rant] Okay sorry about that, can we get back to discussing how much ass this movie kicked now?  I still need to go see it again at an Imax though. [/edit]
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: Swamp on March 23, 2007, 11:32:56 PM
I am glad this topic was moved to its own thread.

First of all, I agree that too much labeling and grouping is done by both sides.

Russell, I am intrigued by the following definition and would like to make a few comments/questions:

You're not a Neocon unless you're a Gay bashing, Democracy exporting through force, Intelligent Design pushing, Deficit Spending, Prayer in School, Anti-Stem Cell Research Conservative.

1) By deficit spending, do you mean tax cuts?  The answer to overcoming the deficit is not more taxes, but responsible spending, which we will never get from our government, democrat or republican.  Our government may be many things, but efficient is not one of them.  I am in favor of a flat tax, or even better a consumption tax (with exception of basics like food etc.)  Of course even these can be politicized, but anything is better than our current tax system.  If you didn’t mean tax cuts, please elaborate.

2)  I am not that familiar with all that goes with “Intelligent Design”, but I believe in God, and that God created us, the world, and the universe.  Does that make me a “Neocon”?  Is that an extreme position nowadays?

3) What is considered gay-bashing?  Does that mean simply not believing that homosexuality is morally right?  Because I feel that as soon as I say that, I am cast as a bigot, a hate-monger, a homo-phobe, and a gay-basher.  If I treat a homosexual person with respect, no more or less that anyone else, and do not discriminate against them professionally or personally, why does my moral stance on the practice cast me in this hateful image.  If I do not have the same beliefs as someone of a different religion, does that mean I am hateful of people in that religion?  Of course not.  It’s the same thing as far as I’m concerned.  What I do hate is being grouped with the same scum that do discriminate, threaten, or physically hurt people because of their sexual orientation.

4)  I don’t think anyone is against the benefits of stem cell research.  The dispute lies in the use of aborted fetus’s (SP?), and thus abortion itself.  Abortion is a standard conservative/liberal debate topic; and I do not see having an anti-abortion opinion as being extreme.  However, if it moves beyond the debate and becomes an attack on someone who has had an abortion or bombing an abortion clinic then it moves even beyond neoconservatism and becomes terrorism.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: SFEley on March 24, 2007, 12:42:23 AM
3) What is considered gay-bashing?  Does that mean simply not believing that homosexuality is morally right?  Because I feel that as soon as I say that, I am cast as a bigot, a hate-monger, a homo-phobe, and a gay-basher.  If I treat a homosexual person with respect, no more or less that anyone else, and do not discriminate against them professionally or personally, why does my moral stance on the practice cast me in this hateful image.

Disclaimer, the below is entirely my opinion, etc. etc.

I can respect what you say here.  To me this is a good example of the distinction I draw in my own head between "weakly unethical" and "strongly unethical."

"Weakly unethical" means that I believe something is a bad idea, but I don't feel it's proper for me to go about policing others.  Copyright violation is an example for me.  I generally don't copy things illegally; when I do, which is only for properties that I can't obtain through reasonable legal means, I don't kid myself about it.  I recognize that what I'm doing is unethical.  I disapprove of broad piracy, and occasionally I speak out against it, but I don't feel it's my moral duty to call the FBI on everyone I know who does it.

Owning a Hummer H2 is a weakly unethical act in my personal compass.  I'm not going to try to ban them, but if you own one I'm likely to judge that you're an asshole.  Most drug use is weakly unethical.  Rude behavior in general is weakly unethical.  Abortion, to me, is weakly unethical in most cases.  In particular I would be extremely upset if I was responsible for someone's pregnancy and she wanted to have it terminated.  I would do anything I possibly could to persuade her otherwise; but I wouldn't attempt to place my decision above hers -- neither personally nor through legislation.

"Strongly unethical" means that not only do I think it's a bad idea for me, if you're doing it I consider it a moral duty to stop you.  This is a much more limited set.  Most of the "classic" crimes are strongly unethical: murder, assault, robbery, etc.  Nonconsensual sex of any form, of course.  I could go on, but not for long.  Most things that leave a clear and direct victim other than the perpetrator (not theoretical damage, not damage to "society," and I really don't want to hash out the whole fetus thing right here) are strongly unethical.  Anything else is weakly unethical at best -- again, in my own morality.


It sounds to me like, in your morality, homosexuality is weakly unethical.  That's cool.  I disagree with you, and under certain circumstances I might even take up the issue verbally (I won't in this thread) but I will not challenge your freedom to your own opinions.  I don't disrespect you as a person just because you think different things are bad than I do.  I'm not even weakly opposed to your position.  >8->

I do have a problem with people who think homosexuality is strongly unethical, that it's a moral duty to stop others from engaging in it.  I am weakly opposed to them when they try to enact political positions on these grounds (and I think it's a really stupid thing to be spending serious time on); I am strongly opposed to them when they actively impede other people's liberty or when they engage in hate crimes.

The general problem I have with many conservatives -- certainly not all -- is that their personal compass of "strongly unethical" is far too broad, and they seem to think government is a proper platform for controlling other people's behavior.  I disagree strongly with this and think it's a very unhealthy prevailing attitude.

Of course I also have problems with many liberals, and there are cases where liberals have overbroad ideas of "strongly unethical" too.  But right now the conservatives have me more worried.  (Perhaps when the liberals start to gain traction and competence, they'll worry me too.)  >8->
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: wakela on March 24, 2007, 01:28:45 AM
Steve, that's a very enlightened viewpoint.  I think the problem is that most conservatives and liberals, basically anyone in the media, have the settings on Strongly Unethical for everything. 

Disclaimer: I am not a Bush fan, a conservative, or a Republican.
But I do think the above often get treated unfairly in the media.

Deficit Spending:
http://www.uuforum.org/deficit.htm
True that the greatest surplus was under Clinton, and the greatest deficit was under Bush II, but Clinton presided over the largest economic boom in US history, and Bush got the dot com bust and 9/11.  According to this chart the road to surplus started under Bush I and ended under Clinton.  Also, Bush's second term has been characterized by a sharp decrease in the deficit.  You could argue that the upswing was the result of Bush I policies, and the downturn the result of Clinton's.   But I have a feeling they are due more to economic fluctuations that have little to do with whoever is president. 

Intelligent Design:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/02/AR2005080201686.html
Bush said that he was in favor of both ID and Evolution being taught, but that it was up to the school districts, not the federal government to decide.  Basically he was asked what he thought of the issue, gave an honest answer, and then said it wasn't up to him, anyway.  Also, the judge that rejected the teaching of ID in public schools in Pennsylvania was a Bush appointee.

Stem Cell Research:
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/08/09/stem.cell.bush/index.html
As Kmmrlatham (?) said, not many people are against stem cell research.  Bush is against using federal money to fund stem cell research using new lines of stem cells.   I'm not against blue eyes, but I'm against blue-eyed people getting federal money.  Since many Americans are anti-abortion and would object to aborted foetuses used for scientific purposes, it isn't unreasonable that their tax money not be used for such research.  Private companies can use all the aborted foetuses they want. Of course, many Americans are against the war in Iraq, too, and Bush has no problem spending their money.

The above doesn't reflect how I feel about these things.  I just think that it's important that people argue the facts rather than what they feel the facts are.  With everyone's meter pinned Strongly Unethical, people often don't realize that the issues are usually more subtle.  Something I realized as I was writing this is that Bush seems to feel that stem cell research on aborted foetuses and the teaching of intelligent design are weakly unethical.  I didn't expect that coming from him.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: wakela on March 24, 2007, 01:33:07 AM
Quote
You're not a Neocon unless you're a Gay bashing, Democracy exporting through force, Intelligent Design pushing, Deficit Spending, Prayer in School, Anti-Stem Cell Research Conservative.

Something that Russel hit on here is that to be a good Neo-con, Repulican, Democrat, whatever, is that there are several completely unreleated issues that you need to agree on.  What if I'm in favor of the aggressive spreading of democracy, but also in favor of gay marriage?  What if I want lower taxes, but less influence by religious groups? 
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: torchape on March 24, 2007, 04:23:42 AM
Reading all of these posts has me waffling to choose which ones to quote. I tend to see extremes on one side or the other with no headway made. We don’t see the back-and-forth in Washington; we only seem to hear the differences. I am very glad to see these posts and they only strengthen my ideas that most of us are closer in our day to day beliefs than the disparate impressions have led me to think. What I mostly object to is the vilification of people and ideas that differ from the dominant voice. For instance, Conyers is the lead attacker going after the subpoenas for Bush’s advisors. He is also the one who said that if Clinton’s impeachment proceeded, it would “decapitate the presidency.” I absolutely detest that sort of thing.

I am ambivalent about what anybody chooses to do as long as it is not harmful to people. I don’t really care is someone is gay, green, or feels like walking on their hands. But I don’t want to be told I am somehow bigoted, racist, “homophobic,” misogynistic, environmentally fatalistic, and a member of the Christian Right solely because I happen to be a white male conservative Republican.

Many of the comments in this thread follow closely with what I believe. Thanks for all the insight. It’s too late to comment on more.

Steve, thanks for the new thread and for your comments. You started with stating it was your opinion. Today on the radio, I heard a caller tell one of the hosts that the host “was extremely biased with his opinion.” I laughed heartily.



Pat Smythe
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: torchape on March 24, 2007, 04:28:19 AM

Something that Russel hit on here is that to be a good Neo-con, Repulican, Democrat, whatever, is that there are several completely unreleated issues that you need to agree on.  What if I'm in favor of the aggressive spreading of democracy, but also in favor of gay marriage?  What if I want lower taxes, but less influence by religious groups? 


That is how I know I am right of center. The right-wing fringe bothers me almost as much as the left-wing fringe.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: Swamp on March 24, 2007, 04:40:36 AM
I disagree with you, and under certain circumstances I might even take up the issue verbally (I won't in this thread) but I will not challenge your freedom to your own opinions.  I don't disrespect you as a person just because you think different things are bad than I do. 

Thank you, Steve.  I appreciate that.  I think if we all had that attitude, we could get things done in this country.  It's okay to disagree; it's okay to debate; but when we start labeling and being disrespectful, a gulf is formed that is difficult to overcome.

"Weakly unethical" means that I believe something is a bad idea, but I don't feel it's proper for me to go about policing others
...
It sounds to me like, in your morality, homosexuality is weakly unethical.

I think I can mostly agree with that.  I guess, in my mind, I draw a line between my personal opinions about homosexuality and the way that I regard or treat a person who is a homosexual.  I have no right to treat somebody badly or judge their skill, capability, likeability, and value as a person, solely because of their sexual preferences.

To go Hollywood for a minute, I have had a person tell me, "I just can't watch that Ellen DeGeneres Show.  She's a lesbian."  I just laughed at them.  What a ludicrous idea!  She is every funny and entertaining person, and seems to be very nice.  I'm not going to change my opinion of her just because she is a lesbian!

On the other hand, I don't care to watch Rosie O'Donnell.  If I say that, people might accuse me, saying, "Oh,you just don't like her because she is a lesbian."  My response would be: "No, I don't like her because she is obnoxious."

I probably went too pop culture to make a serious point, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that while I feel I have right to my personal opinion, I do not let it effect my treatment of an individual.  I try to think of it as what I would do if one of my children told me they were gay.  Would I stop loving them?  Of course not.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: Russell Nash on March 24, 2007, 09:24:03 AM
You're not a Neocon unless you're a Gay bashing, Democracy exporting through force, Intelligent Design pushing, Deficit Spending, Prayer in School, Anti-Stem Cell Research Conservative.

1) By deficit spending, do you mean tax cuts? The answer to overcoming the deficit is not more taxes, but responsible spending, which we will never get from our government, democrat or republican.
Deficit spending is spending more than you get in. Spending into a deficit. Spending less than you get in is possible. If you look at the history of the national debt (http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/BPDLogin?application=np) (U.S.Treasury site, they recently redid it and it is far harder to use, sorry), you will see that we had the debt essentially paid off in 1960. (The space race shot it to h**l.) This included all of the debt from WWII and rebuilding Europe.(The Marshall plan wasn't exactly cheap)

More recently if you look at the dates Jan 1999-Jan 2001, you see the debt in the last two years of the Clinton administration went up 46 Billion dollars. Sounds like a lot, but from Jan.2005-Jan 2007 the debt went up 1.89 Trillion dollars. Last two years of Bush I (Sept 1990-Sept 1992) the debt went up 831 Billion dollars. Last two years of Reagan (sept 1986-Sept 1988) the debt went up 477 Billion. That was more than a 20% increase in two years. These numbers don't even take into account inflation(these are all unadjusted numbers) or the fact that each subsequent administration had to deal with the debt left behind by the previous one.

Conservatives always believed in a balanced budget. This was where Bush really started losing the support of Moderate conservatives.

2)  I am not that familiar with all that goes with “Intelligent Design”, but I believe in God, and that God created us, the world, and the universe.

No, that's the fallacy. ID says that Evolution is wrong. Everything that exists only exists because God made it just that way.

Evolution describes a system, but doesn't(can't) say where/who the system comes from.

ID says, for example, that God (ID says some unknown designer) redesigned every eyeball for every different species. So a dogs eyes didn't evolve to be good in low light, because wolves live in the woods, but because God made their eyes to be that way.

ID is creationism rebadged. God created the world in 6 days then took a break and the world is only about 10,000 years old. All evidence to the contrary was planted by God to look that way. Oh yeah, and humans didn't evolve from apes, but were set down here all hairless and standing upright.

3) What is considered gay-bashing?  Does that mean simply not believing that homosexuality is morally right?

If homosexuality repulses you, so what. I have gay friends (two of the god parents for my kids), but we have an unspoken rule. They don't tell me how good it is for them and we don't tell them the things we "breeders" do.

Gay Bashing is being outwardly hateful or discriminating. It's saying because they are the way they are, they don't deserve the rights of other Americans. Pretty much it's just like any other kind of discrimination.

Basically every arguement against gays (including the religious ones) were used to discriminate against women and blacks.

4)  I don’t think anyone is against the benefits of stem cell research.  The dispute lies in the use of aborted fetus’s (SP?), and thus abortion itself.

Once again, the idea is to not let all of the information get out or to mislabel it. Stem cell research is currently being done not on fetuses that were aborted, but on blastisuses(sp?) created in petri dishes. The difference being  a fetus is a couple of months old and was in a woman, but a blastisus(sp?) was never in a woman and is only eight cells. Also the research uses these stem cells because they are the most versital. The idea is to move beyond these stem cells as the scientists learn how they work. It's kind of like how foundries used charcoal until they figured out how to use coal until they figured out how to use gas.

Deficit Spending:
http://www.uuforum.org/deficit.htm
True that the greatest surplus was under Clinton, and the greatest deficit was under Bush II, but Clinton presided over the largest economic boom in US history, and Bush got the dot com bust and 9/11.  According to this chart the road to surplus started under Bush I and ended under Clinton.  Also, Bush's second term has been characterized by a sharp decrease in the deficit.  You could argue that the upswing was the result of Bush I policies, and the downturn the result of Clinton's.   But I have a feeling they are due more to economic fluctuations that have little to do with whoever is president. 
The blue areas under BushI just show that in the last couple of years the deficit wasn't as bad as the years before. You forget that Clinton was the first president since FDR (I think) to shut down the government because he thought the budget was too big, and he did it twice.

The dot com bust was in 2000. The stock market had recovered before the end of the year. Officially the recession Bush said he inherited started in early 2001. The stock market recovered after 9/11 by February. Forbes magazine (a conservative magazine if there ever was one) called Clinton the best president for the economy in the last century.

The Republicans always say the president has nothing to do with the economy when you talk about Clinton. However everytime the smallest indicator moves up now, it's all because of Bush's leadership.

For instance, Conyers is the lead attacker going after the subpoenas for Bush’s advisors. He is also the one who said that if Clinton’s impeachment proceeded, it would “decapitate the presidency.” I absolutely detest that sort of thing.

Lots of Clintons advisers testified on all sorts of things under oath and with transcripts. Conyers point was that Clinton was being impeached for something totally unrelated to the investigation. The Star Commission was supposed to be investigating the Whitewater investment deal and all they got was that Clinton will have sex with any chick that flashes her thong.

This turned out to be far longer than planned. Sorry I got going. I didn't really go back and proofread this, so if something seems really rude (or whatever), it's probably because my hands couldn't keep up with my brain.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: Swamp on March 24, 2007, 10:35:21 PM
If homosexuality repulses you, so what.

Repulsion is not a term that I would use, and I have not used anything like it in my comments.  That is a huge misinterpretation of what I have said.  You said that you didn't proofread, so I just wanted to point this out.

The Republicans always say the president has nothing to do with the economy when you talk about Clinton. However everytime the smallest indicator moves up now, it's all because of Bush's leadership.

LOL.  You've noticed that too, huh.  I always laugh if I hear Hannity or Limbaugh change their tune depending on who they are talking about.  Of course a Democrat would never provide inconsisteant analysis to favor their party.

I am no economy expert, but my honest opinion is that the economy is based upon the the population's perception of the economy.  If we think the economy is doing well, it tends to do well.  If we think it is in the crapper it tends to drop.  I know there are external forces and events, and the President does factor in on some level, but I believe it to be very small.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: ClintMemo on March 25, 2007, 03:56:48 AM
I think I may have posted tis idea somewhere else, but I'll do it again, anyway. :P
One problem in the US is that politicians have everyone convinced that all issues have a "left" and "right" POV and that everyone is either left, right or somewhere in between.  That just isn't true.  A person can have very leftist opinions on one topic and very rightist opinions on another.

On other topics...
"Noecons" have very little to do with conservatism.  Conservatives believe in limited government, responsible fiscal policy and individual rights.  Neocons apparently believe in running huge deficits and taking the rights away from people if it gets in the way of keeping themselves in power.  BTW, W's gov't is the biggest in the history of the US, so what dos that say about limited government.

Abortion
Now matter where you stand on abortion, let me point out one idea - abortion was the greatest red herring political idea invented in the last 50 years. Everyone had an opinion. Everyone would defend it. No one ever changed their mind about it.  Bring it up, stand back and watch people fight about it.  That's what politicians have been doing for at least 35 years - using it to keep people's minds off other topics. Topics that politicians might not want us to think too hard about. Things that we might change to their detriment. Things like responsible fiscal policy, or national health care, or the environment, or public education or campaign finance reform or fixing social security.  A few years ago, abortion began to get stale as a red herring topic, so they invented a new one. It's called Gay Marriage.  While everyone was busy arguing about gay marriage, W started a war, ran the biggest deficits in the history of the world, started spying on his own people and gave himself the power to toss anyone he wants to in jail forever without even charging them with anything.
(and if saying that gets me labeled as an "enemy combatant" you'll know why I stopped posting)

Deficits.
The deficit numbers the gov't publish are bogus for two reasons.  1) They don't include the money being spent on the war on terror.  Those are supplemental (i.e. not part of the budget) funds.  2) They don't reflect that fact that he gov't owes tons of money to the social security administration. That's like taking out a second mortgage and not counting it as debt. This isn't a new trick.  Both parties have been pulling this stunt for a couple of decades now.

Term limits.
Term limits are a way of getting rid of other people's congressman.  People don't want term limits to get rid of their own congressman.  They can already do that by voting for someone else. They just don't.  I live in Kentucky, so I have no way of getting rid of pompous idiots like Ted Kennedy or that "series of tubes" idiot Ted Stevens.  But I can vote against the pompous idiot that is Mitch McConnell and I do every chance I get.  Unfortunately, I don't have enough people on my side. :P  I would guess that influencing a newbie in congress is cheaper than an old pro, but that's just a theory.  (And if you think congress is corrupt, look up "operation boptrot". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Boptrot). I think term limits is not hte way to fix the problem.  The way to fix the problem is with campaign finance reform - real reform.  Here's my version: Every nickel spent on a campaign has to be accounted for. Every service has to be paid for (no volunteers). Every donor has to be identified. The maximum amount you can spend on a campaign is fixed.   Then we would know is financing these people and who can actually manage money.

ID
Originally, and this was about 20 years ago, the idea of "Intelligent Design" was complimentary to evolution.  Why are things evolving? Because God is causing it to happen.  I remember reading about the idea in college.  It was way to reconcile science and religion.  Creationists simple stole the term.    (I've always laughed at the idea that God sprinkled fossils around in order to fool non-believers.  "So is God a trickster a liar, or a tempter?  I'm confused.")

And a few random ideas...

Maybe instead of a two party system, we should have a no party system. Everyone has to run as an individual.

I also think ballots should have "none of the above" as a choice. If "none of the above" wins, then there is a new election and candidates beaten by "none of the above" are not allowed to run.  That would clean up politics pretty fast.



Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: Russell Nash on March 25, 2007, 05:01:17 PM
If homosexuality repulses you, so what.

Repulsion is not a term that I would use, and I have not used anything like it in my comments.  That is a huge misinterpretation of what I have said.  You said that you didn't proofread, so I just wanted to point this out.

My idea was, it doesn't matter how you feel about it as long as you don't discriminate. "It could go as far as repulsion" was my idea.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: FNH on March 25, 2007, 08:33:05 PM
I do have a problem with people who think homosexuality is strongly unethical, that it's a moral duty to stop others from engaging in it.  I am weakly opposed to them when they try to enact political positions on these grounds (and I think it's a really stupid thing to be spending serious time on); I am strongly opposed to them when they actively impede other people's liberty or when they engage in hate crimes.

This is where I see problems.  The evils committed by religious organisations are always when they try to enforce belief.  This is done by all religious extremes.  The problem is when people fall into the mindset of thinking they can MAKE people believe.

You cant MAKE people believe, the Bible even says that.  Only by being nice, and with discussion can you win converts, not by bashing them on the head.  Bash someone on the head, and they'll say anything you want, but it wont MAKE them believe.  If they dont believe you've gained nothing.

That said democracy is about subjugating the minority's to majority opinion so I have no problems with religious groups or non religious groups enacting their democratic rights.

Here's a scary thought.  Q. How do you get-on in an extremist society?   A. By being more extreme.



Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: Swamp on March 25, 2007, 11:55:54 PM
If homosexuality repulses you, so what.

Repulsion is not a term that I would use, and I have not used anything like it in my comments.  That is a huge misinterpretation of what I have said.  You said that you didn't proofread, so I just wanted to point this out.

My idea was, it doesn't matter how you feel about it as long as you don't discriminate. "It could go as far as repulsion" was my idea.

That's cool.  Thanks for the clarification.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: wakela on March 26, 2007, 01:22:47 AM
I think politically speaking, the only homosexuality issue on the table with whether same sex marriages should be allowed.  Both Bush and Kerry agree on this one, so I don't think it's a neocon-only issue.

Quote
A few years ago, abortion began to get stale as a red herring topic, so they invented a new one. It's called Gay Marriage.  While everyone was busy arguing about gay marriage, W started a war, ran the biggest deficits in the history of the world, started spying on his own people and gave himself the power to toss anyone he wants to in jail forever without even charging them with anything.

The media makes the conversation topics, not the politicians.  And all those things that Bush got away with were hardly ignored.  They generated and continue to generate a lot of media coverage. 

Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: Russell Nash on March 26, 2007, 10:04:43 AM
That said democracy is about subjugating the minority's to majority opinion so I have no problems with religious groups or non religious groups enacting their democratic rights.

Does that mean it's OK to try to get there religious beliefs turned into law even when the majority do not belong to that religion?
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: ClintMemo on March 26, 2007, 11:48:29 AM
I think politically speaking, the only homosexuality issue on the table with whether same sex marriages should be allowed.  Both Bush and Kerry agree on this one, so I don't think it's a neocon-only issue.
The specifics of who stands where on the position is irrelevant in its usefulness as a red-herring topic.  All that matters is whether the public at large will get fired up about it and stop paying attention to other things. Its the bright shiny object the magician waves to keep you from noticing what he's doing with his other hand.


Quote
A few years ago, abortion began to get stale as a red herring topic, so they invented a new one. It's called Gay Marriage.  While everyone was busy arguing about gay marriage, W started a war, ran the biggest deficits in the history of the world, started spying on his own people and gave himself the power to toss anyone he wants to in jail forever without even charging them with anything.

Quote
The media makes the conversation topics, not the politicians.  And all those things that Bush got away with were hardly ignored.  They generated and continue to generate a lot of media coverage. 



The media reports what politicians do and say.  Yes, there is obviously some picking and choosing going on but the press very often gets manipulated into covering what politicians want covered.   Of course, other times its easy to keep people distracted, especially when so many of them are more interested in what professional celebrities are doing than what the national leaders are doing.

The mainstream press largely glossed over the things Bush has gotten away with. The only time I ever see any mainstream press stories about these topics are after the fact and generally only after underground press (i.e. web sites and blogs) rage about them for months on end.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: ClintMemo on March 26, 2007, 12:06:21 PM

The media makes the conversation topics, not the politicians.



and in the interest of fair play, here is a great example of what you said...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eat-the-press/2007/03/25/time-joins-n_e_44218.html

Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: lowky on March 26, 2007, 01:49:37 PM
Reading all of these posts has me waffling to choose which ones to quote. I tend to see extremes on one side or the other with no headway made. We don’t see the back-and-forth in Washington; we only seem to hear the differences. I am very glad to see these posts and they only strengthen my ideas that most of us are closer in our day to day beliefs than the disparate impressions have led me to think. What I mostly object to is the vilification of people and ideas that differ from the dominant voice. For instance, Conyers is the lead attacker going after the subpoenas for Bush’s advisors. He is also the one who said that if Clinton’s impeachment proceeded, it would “decapitate the presidency.” I absolutely detest that sort of thing.
 
Conyers is a hypocrite, as are most politicians.  What about the fact that has come to light recently from/about Newt Gingrich, that he was having an affair when going after Clinton for the same thing.  I will use Steve's moral compass here.  Clinton having an affair weakly unethical.  The wrongful firing of people because they disagreed with current administration, the "outing" of an undercover CIA agent, the stripping of our civil liberties that has occured under Bush II, are all strongly unethical and much more deserving of impeachment than Clinton was.  If Clinton deserved to be impeached for that, then I bet most of our presidents deserved to be impeached.  It's the fact that the media seems to only want to report scandals and sensationalism anymore.  We all know it happened under Kennedy, and yet he is considered one of this country's great leaders. 

I am ambivalent about what anybody chooses to do as long as it is not harmful to people. I don’t really care is someone is gay, green, or feels like walking on their hands. But I don’t want to be told I am somehow bigoted, racist, “homophobic,” misogynistic, environmentally fatalistic, and a member of the Christian Right solely because I happen to be a white male conservative Republican.
 
Unfortunately it is the loudest members of a group that get reported on, and make the impression on the public.  I am sure most of the country falls at Middle of the road more or less, but it's the party extremes that are the vocal majority.  If the bigoted racist "homophobic", misogynistic, enviornmentally fatalistic, members of the Christian Right, could be silenced in favor of a more middle stance, people wouldn't lump all republicans into those categories.  It's guilt by association, not by actual guilt, nor at least in my eyes is it meant as a personal attack against you, so much as the vocal majority.

Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: Swamp on March 26, 2007, 05:08:31 PM
The wrongful firing of people because they disagreed with current administration, the "outing" of an undercover CIA agent,

Talk about your red herring issues. 

The first issue is a political fact of any administration for the types of jobs in question--presidential appointees.  Nobody complained when Rumsfeld was "fired".

The second was thoroughly investigated and the only resulting conviction had nothing to do with the naming of a non-covert agent.

Strongly unethical?  Are you sure about that?

You also mentioned "the stripping of our civil liberties".  Now, while I feel that is an exaggeration, this is something I feel comfortable with everyone keeping on eye on and questioning.  There needs to be careful checking and watching over these things, however, without politically motivated accusations.

That's the thing.  If the Democrats and Republicans want any kind of credibility on fighting for the things they feel are most important, then they have to stop squabbling in earnest over these meaningless things like the above two examples.  Do they want to solve problems, or just sling some more mud?  Unfortunately, I think I know the answer.

As far as Clinton, I still have mixed feelings about his impeachment.  To set the record strait, Clinton was not prosecuted for having an affair, but for lying under oath about an affair.  That being the truth, there did seem to be a witch hunt mentality (much like we see now).  It seems to be a pattern now that if a party can't beat the president at the polls, especially for a second term, the only goal for the opposition, Republicans and Democrats, is to bring accusations of scandal until the next elections.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: lowky on March 26, 2007, 06:04:41 PM
The wrongful firing of people because they disagreed with current administration, the "outing" of an undercover CIA agent,

Talk about your red herring issues. 

The first issue is a political fact of any administration for the types of jobs in question--presidential appointees.  Nobody complained when Rumsfeld was "fired".

Yes they are presidential appointees, however it is not normal for them to be removed mid term.  It is very common for them to be removed during the start of a president's term.  And while you may think Rumsfeld was fired, he resigned.

Quote
The second was thoroughly investigated and the only resulting conviction had nothing to do with the naming of a non-covert agent.

Of the investigation, why was it that Dick Cheny didn't have to testify etc.  Say what you will, my opinion is still that Cheny was responsible, and the conviction that came about, again was only about purgery not the initial allegation.
Quote
Strongly unethical?  Are you sure about that?
Well since ethics are opinions not facts, Yes.
Quote
You also mentioned "the stripping of our civil liberties".  Now, while I feel that is an exaggeration, this is something I feel comfortable with everyone keeping on eye on and questioning.  There needs to be careful checking and watching over these things, however, without politically motivated accusations.

You don't believe that the government having access to every phone number and length of the call you have made since 9/11 is not subject to abuse?  That the "security" measures in place for travel through U.S. Airports amount to anything other than a farcical show for the wanting to be duped masses, actually doing nothing to secure anything? 

Quote
That's the thing.  If the Democrats and Republicans want any kind of credibility on fighting for the things they feel are most important, then they have to stop squabbling in earnest over these meaningless things like the above two examples.  Do they want to solve problems, or just sling some more mud?  Unfortunately, I think I know the answer. 
I can't argue with that.  Both parties are guilty of mud slinging.

Quote
As far as Clinton, I still have mixed feelings about his impeachment.  To set the record strait, Clinton was not prosecuted for having an affair, but for lying under oath about an affair.  That being the truth, there did seem to be a witch hunt mentality (much like we see now).  It seems to be a pattern now that if a party can't beat the president at the polls, especially for a second term, the only goal for the opposition, Republicans and Democrats, is to bring accusations of scandal until the next elections.

While Clinton's impeachment trial was about purgory, that he was questioned under oath about an affair is ridiculous.  It shouldn't have been anyone's business except his, his wife's and the party(ies) he had an affair with. 
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: Heradel on March 27, 2007, 01:14:34 AM

The first issue is a political fact of any administration for the types of jobs in question--presidential appointees.  Nobody complained when Rumsfeld was "fired".
As a semi-but-not-really-recovering Washingtonian, no one is actually disputing the ability of the president to fire them. They're questioning the motives of the people who decided to fire them, as an en-mass firing (while a very common slash nearly-automatic event at the beginning of a president's term) is incredibly rare and in many ways unprecedented event three fourths of the way through the term of a President. Throw in hints of political motives for some of the firings (jeopardizing historical non-politicization of the US District Attorneys), the calls to one of the Attorneys from a Congressman and Senator (that act in and of itself in violation of ethics rules in the House and Senate), well, you end up with a somewhat foul-smelling situation that the newly Democratic Congress decided to look into. And as they do, the situation starts looking worse and worse. The Executive branch is unused to the Congress challenging it's decisions or really looking into them, and we can see in their reaction to this —gate that they aren't ready to deal with it.

It's legal for him to fire all of them. But if it was for purely political motives in some of the cases... it's a bad precedent to set.

Quote
The second was thoroughly investigated and the only resulting conviction had nothing to do with the naming of a non-covert agent.

She had been on several overseas missions in the two years prior to her outing, the covert nature of those missions was confirmed by her testimony before congress (here (http://rtsp://video.c-span.org/project/iraq/iraq031607_plame.rm), in real media format). At the very least, the knowledge of her being a CIA operative was not common knowledge and though the CIA is unable to comment due to the nature of their operations, it was hinted that it may have caused some damage to certain elements of their information gathering. Which we won't know for certain until 2060-2070 when the documents are unclassified.

As to others' guilt in the leak... well, the common wisdom around the Hill is that Fitzgerald wasn't able to build a strong-enough case for conviction and thus did not indict.

Quote
That's the thing.  If the Democrats and Republicans want any kind of credibility on fighting for the things they feel are most important, then they have to stop squabbling in earnest over these meaningless things like the above two examples.  Do they want to solve problems, or just sling some more mud?  Unfortunately, I think I know the answer.

The firing of US Attorneys for political reasons isn't unimportant. Especially when emails revealed through the investigation show they're being evaluated by the criteria of being "loyal bushies". And when the Attorney General of the United States says in front of cameras that he hadn't 'seen any memos, sat in any meetings' and is then shown to have sat in an hour-long meeting in November about the firings... well, I start wondering if Occam's Razor points to dishonesty or some sort of viral memory-destroying infection ravaging the Executive branch.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: Russell Nash on March 27, 2007, 07:38:27 AM
But I don’t want to be told I am somehow bigoted, racist, “homophobic,” misogynistic, environmentally fatalistic, and a member of the Christian Right solely because I happen to be a white male conservative Republican.

Pat,

Reading your opinions, I think your mislabeling yourself.  You seem conservative on the whole, but not conservative with respect to the party.  Just like most everybody else you seem like you're really in the middle.  A moderate conservative, a moderate Republican.  As such I'm sure if you laid out all of the issues, you'd find yourself on different sides depending on the topic.

I swing wildly in my political beliefs.  Fiscally, I'm an Eisenhower Republican, Pay down the debt as quickly as possible.  This is why I liked Clinton.  Education, I'm a radical liberal, massive resources for every student.  Clinton tried but didn't get enough here.  On Iraq, I've had the same opinion for almost four years and only one politician shared my ideas.  He had to start his presidential campaign by calling one of the other candidates "clean", so I think we can forget about his chances of bringing his idea to the front of the conversation.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: FNH on March 27, 2007, 06:44:48 PM
That said democracy is about subjugating the minority's to majority opinion so I have no problems with religious groups or non religious groups enacting their democratic rights.

Does that mean it's OK to try to get there religious beliefs turned into law even when the majority do not belong to that religion?

Yes.  Thats democratic process.  In terms of democracy it's no differn't to any other "group" trying to get thier wants and desires into law.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: FNH on March 27, 2007, 06:50:46 PM
While Clinton's impeachment trial was about purgory, that he was questioned under oath about an affair is ridiculous.  It shouldn't have been anyone's business except his, his wife's and the party(ies) he had an affair with. 

I disagree so strongly that that reading your post hurt my eyes.  The position of responsibility that man was in means that I want only the most honest and scrupelous of people.  I want someone I can trust.  If a man has an afair behind his wifes back he is not trustworthy.  A man who lies to his wife, would not think twice before lying to the public.  His "outing" proved that he was untrustworthy, and unfit to hold the position he was in.

Now someone out there is going to say, "They are all he same, so it does not matter".  You are wrong, they will only get away with it if "you" let your standards slide.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: lowky on March 27, 2007, 07:13:42 PM
While Clinton's impeachment trial was about purgory, that he was questioned under oath about an affair is ridiculous.  It shouldn't have been anyone's business except his, his wife's and the party(ies) he had an affair with. 

I disagree so strongly that that reading your post hurt my eyes.  The position of responsibility that man was in means that I want only the most honest and scrupelous of people.  I want someone I can trust.  If a man has an afair behind his wifes back he is not trustworthy.  A man who lies to his wife, would not think twice before lying to the public.  His "outing" proved that he was untrustworthy, and unfit to hold the position he was in.

Now someone out there is going to say, "They are all he same, so it does not matter".  You are wrong, they will only get away with it if "you" let your standards slide.

It's not a matter of letting standards slide so much as journalism has become gossip as news, whereas in the past peoples privacy was respected.  It is widely known that Kennedy had affairs, as have many other presidents.  It's just wasn't made into sensational news.  I am not saying it's right for Clinton to have had an affair, I am saying it's nobody's business.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: ClintMemo on March 27, 2007, 10:19:36 PM
Remember that voting is not a short answer essay question; it's a multiple choice question - pick the best answer from the ones provided.

Given a choice between candidate a) who lied about having an extra-marital affair with a woman young enough to be his daughter and candidate b) whose lies have led to the deaths of 655,000 foreign civilians, which one do you vote for?

(Note: answer c) "none of the above" is not an option)



Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: SFEley on March 27, 2007, 11:05:08 PM
Given a choice between candidate a) who lied about having an extra-marital affair with a woman young enough to be his daughter and candidate b) whose lies have led to the deaths of 655,000 foreign civilians, which one do you vote for?

(Note: answer c) "none of the above" is not an option)

"None of the above" is indeed an option, because the choice has never been between George W. Bush and Bill Clinton.  Further, both the events you cite happened after those presidents were already in office, and the shit really hit the fans in their second terms.  You can't find out about these things and then go back in time and change your vote.

What can you do?  Only try to predict what somebody might do in office, and the American voter is totally unequipped for that.  You're right that it's a multiple choice test, but it's a test with bad information; what real data you can find about the candidates has been massaged by their own side and mangled by the other side so that it says anything but who those people really are. 
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: Swamp on March 27, 2007, 11:25:49 PM
"None of the above" is indeed an option, because the choice has never been between George W. Bush and Bill Clinton.  Further, both the events you cite happened after those presidents were already in office, and the shit really hit the fans in their second terms.  You can't find out about these things and then go back in time and change your vote.

Well said.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: wakela on March 28, 2007, 02:04:52 AM
Candidates talk a lot, but they don't seem to write very much (until their term is over).  What I would like to see (and maybe it's out there and I just don't know about it) is media outlets submitting questionnaires to the candidates.  Unlike speeches, it would be much easier to assess their opinions and goals if they are printed and if the candidate doesn't decide the topic.  Unlike interviews, it would be more obvious when they avoid the question.  "What do I think about the economy?  Well, the economy depends on the situation in Iraq, and let me tell you about the mistakes my opponent made there." They can give long, rambling, vague answers and run the risk of frustrating readers.  Their answers would be scrutinized by the blogosphere and lies and inconsistencies will be found.  The New York Time's questions would have a liberal slant, and Fox's would have a conservative slant. 

Unlike a lot of wouldn't-it-be-nice politics ideas, this one seems pretty easy to implement.  Newspapers, or even bloggers, just have to start sending in questions.   It's fine if the candidate is too busy to reply, but that is a reply in itself, isn't it. 
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: wakela on March 28, 2007, 02:13:55 AM
Quote
Given a choice between candidate a) who lied about having an extra-marital affair with a woman young enough to be his daughter and candidate b) whose lies have led to the deaths of 655,000 foreign civilians, which one do you vote for?
Does anyone have a link to Bush actually lying?
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: SFEley on March 28, 2007, 03:07:18 AM
Candidates talk a lot, but they don't seem to write very much (until their term is over).  What I would like to see (and maybe it's out there and I just don't know about it) is media outlets submitting questionnaires to the candidates.  Unlike speeches, it would be much easier to assess their opinions and goals if they are printed and if the candidate doesn't decide the topic.

Many newspapers do this, and the League of Women Voters (http://www.lwv.org) does this for candidates for most national, state and local positions every election.  I always go there just prior to election day to see if the candidates have responded and what they've said.

And yes, it is pretty easy to see who's evading the questions, and I cast my vote accordingly.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: lowky on March 28, 2007, 09:06:23 AM
Candidates talk a lot, but they don't seem to write very much (until their term is over).  What I would like to see (and maybe it's out there and I just don't know about it) is media outlets submitting questionnaires to the candidates.  Unlike speeches, it would be much easier to assess their opinions and goals if they are printed and if the candidate doesn't decide the topic.  Unlike interviews, it would be more obvious when they avoid the question.  "What do I think about the economy?  Well, the economy depends on the situation in Iraq, and let me tell you about the mistakes my opponent made there." They can give long, rambling, vague answers and run the risk of frustrating readers.  Their answers would be scrutinized by the blogosphere and lies and inconsistencies will be found.  The New York Time's questions would have a liberal slant, and Fox's would have a conservative slant. 

Unlike a lot of wouldn't-it-be-nice politics ideas, this one seems pretty easy to implement.  Newspapers, or even bloggers, just have to start sending in questions.   It's fine if the candidate is too busy to reply, but that is a reply in itself, isn't it. 

http://votesmart.org/index.htm
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: ClintMemo on March 28, 2007, 12:06:43 PM

"None of the above" is indeed an option, because the choice has never been between George W. Bush and Bill Clinton. 

I was merely pointing out who is obviously worse - obvious to me anyway.

Voting is often described as picking the "lesser of two evils."  One of my coworkers called it the "evil of two lessers."

Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: Russell Nash on March 28, 2007, 03:19:50 PM
If a man has an afair behind his wifes back he is not trustworthy.  A man who lies to his wife, would not think twice before lying to the public.  His "outing" proved that he was untrustworthy, and unfit to hold the position he was in.

According to a book written by (I believe) the head of the American History dept. at American University in D.C., the following presidents should have been removed from office using your criteria:

George Washington
John Adams
Thomas Jefferson
James Madison
James Monroe
John Quincy Adams
Andrew Jackson
Martin Van Buren
John Tyler
James K. Polk
Zachary Taylor
Millard Fillmore
Franklin Pierce
James Buchanan
Abraham Lincoln
Andrew Johnson
Ulysses S. Grant
Rutherford B. Hayes
James Garfield
Chester A. Arthur
Grover Cleveland
Benjamin Harrison
Grover Cleveland
William McKinley
Theodore Roosevelt
William H. Taft
Woodrow Wilson
Warren G. Harding
Calvin Coolidge
Herbert Hoover
Franklin D. Roosevelt
Harry S. Truman
Dwight D. Eisenhower
John F. Kennedy
Lyndon B. Johnson
Richard Nixon
Gerald Ford
Ronald Reagan
George H. W. Bush
Bill Clinton

This is only for "activity" while in office. Only Carter and Bush II haven't been caught. Oh yeah and the guy who died within forty days.

I always wondered how this could be and I came up with an idea. The same ego and charisma it takes to be president is also found in many serial filanderers(sp?).
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: Russell Nash on March 28, 2007, 03:39:13 PM
The wrongful firing of people because they disagreed with current administration, the "outing" of an undercover CIA agent,

Talk about your red herring issues. 

The first issue is a political fact of any administration for the types of jobs in question--presidential appointees.  Nobody complained when Rumsfeld was "fired".

Wow, this shows a total lack of understanding of how the system works.

The procedure is:
1)The president submits names to the Senate Judicial commitee
2)The commitee investigates the Nominations and makes recommendations.
3)The full Senate votes on each nomination.

This gives the parties the power to slant the views of the Prosecutors, but doesn't allow party hitmen to get through. If one of the attorneys then went out and only prosecuted according to party lines, he'd never get through the approval process again. Once the prosecutors are in place they are protected by law from political interference. It is illegal for any politician to ask them to do something.

What happened here is that eight prosecutors were removed for either prosecuting Republicans (Randy Cunningham) or for not prosecuting Democrats.  Then they were replaced using a new part of the "Patriot Act" that says in an emergency the president can appoint a replacement for a federal prosecutor without Senate approval.

First point, it's illegal to replace the Prosecutor just because you don't like who he's prosecuting.

Second point, just because you remove a guy doesn't make it an emergency replacement.

Third point, If there was nothing wrong with it, why didn't they just announce one day, "we're replacing eight US prosecutors today"?
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: ClintMemo on March 28, 2007, 03:41:37 PM

Second point, just because you remove a guy doesn't make it an emergency replacement.

This president seems to have an ever-relaxing view of what constitutes an emergency.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: Russell Nash on March 28, 2007, 03:55:01 PM
Intelligent Design:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/02/AR2005080201686.html
Bush said that he was in favor of both ID and Evolution being taught, but that it was up to the school districts, not the federal government to decide.  Basically he was asked what he thought of the issue, gave an honest answer, and then said it wasn't up to him, anyway.  Also, the judge that rejected the teaching of ID in public schools in Pennsylvania was a Bush appointee.

This was all he said, but the thing is that's all the ID people want. They want the right to teach this junk in a science class and then they hope that the science teachers or school principals will push it more than evolution.

However, ID IS NOT SCIENCE. That anyone could consider this crap was arrived at by any scientific process, proves that science isn't being taught properly in the schools. This idea (religious pipedream) hasn't been put through any of the scientific process. There is no data. There is no testing of the hypothesis. On a professional level they never published a real paper in a scientific journal to be peer reviewed.

It is ridiculous that this arguement has gotten anywhere. I blame this largely on the mainstream press. They always have one pro and one con person. It lets everyone think that it's an open issue. They never say over 99% of all geological, biological, and evolutionary scientists believe ID is garbage.

The rest of the educated world laughs their ass of at this whole discussion. Whenever I make a comment about Germany being backwards, one of my friends just says, "you Americans want to teach ID." Arguement over. I lost.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: Russell Nash on March 28, 2007, 06:14:59 PM
Quote
Given a choice between candidate a) who lied about having an extra-marital affair with a woman young enough to be his daughter and candidate b) whose lies have led to the deaths of 655,000 foreign civilians, which one do you vote for?
Does anyone have a link to Bush actually lying?

Do I have to link in everything from the yellow cake uranium from Niger?
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: ClintMemo on March 28, 2007, 06:34:26 PM
Quote
Given a choice between candidate a) who lied about having an extra-marital affair with a woman young enough to be his daughter and candidate b) whose lies have led to the deaths of 655,000 foreign civilians, which one do you vote for?
Does anyone have a link to Bush actually lying?

Do I have to link in everything from the yellow cake uranium from Niger?


Presidentially, I think he started with saying something like "I don't think America should be involved in nation building"  sometime in 1998.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: SFEley on March 28, 2007, 06:53:59 PM
Does anyone have a link to Bush actually lying?

Do I have to link in everything from the yellow cake uranium from Niger?

Actually, I'm with Wakela on this.  Calling that a straight-out deliberate lie may be a stretch.  Who knew what and when, and what conclusions may have been jumped to from what amounts of data, is still a horrendously complicated issue.

Calling it a monumental fuck-up, on the other hand...  Now that's simpler and a lot more defensible.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: FNH on March 28, 2007, 07:55:21 PM
According to a book written by (I believe) the head of the American History dept. at American University in D.C., the following presidents should have been removed from office using your criteria:

George Washington
John Adams
Thomas Jefferson
James Madison
James Monroe
John Quincy Adams
Andrew Jackson
Martin Van Buren
John Tyler
James K. Polk
Zachary Taylor
Millard Fillmore
Franklin Pierce
James Buchanan
Abraham Lincoln
Andrew Johnson
Ulysses S. Grant
Rutherford B. Hayes
James Garfield
Chester A. Arthur
Grover Cleveland
Benjamin Harrison
Grover Cleveland
William McKinley
Theodore Roosevelt
William H. Taft
Woodrow Wilson
Warren G. Harding
Calvin Coolidge
Herbert Hoover
Franklin D. Roosevelt
Harry S. Truman
Dwight D. Eisenhower
John F. Kennedy
Lyndon B. Johnson
Richard Nixon
Gerald Ford
Ronald Reagan
George H. W. Bush
Bill Clinton

This is only for "activity" while in office. Only Carter and Bush II haven't been caught. Oh yeah and the guy who died within forty days.

I always wondered how this could be and I came up with an idea. The same ego and charisma it takes to be president is also found in many serial filanderers(sp?).

Your right about the ego thing.  I was upset to see Teddy in the list. If it was up to me, I'd put them all through lie detectors in front of the public and ask pointed questions before the vote.  Lets get the real deal.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: Heradel on March 28, 2007, 08:06:07 PM
Your right about the ego thing.  I was upset to see Teddy in the list. If it was up to me, I'd put them all through lie detectors in front of the public and ask pointed questions before the vote.  Lets get the real deal.

Well, the ask pointed questions bit is supposed to be taken up with the presidential debates. The problem with this is that they haven't really had a structure to the debates that allows for a real argument over ideas and ideals.

As to the questionnaires, odds are the candidate only really checks off on answers written by the speechwriting staff and interns. While I wouldn't say they are inaccurate representations of the candidates views, most candidates don't have time, especially in the final months, to put a pen to paper.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: SFEley on March 28, 2007, 08:40:28 PM
Your right about the ego thing.  I was upset to see Teddy in the list. If it was up to me, I'd put them all through lie detectors in front of the public and ask pointed questions before the vote.  Lets get the real deal.

You won't find the "real deal."  The "real deal" is unelectable.  In a world where the "real deal" counted for something, we'd be talking about Will Rogers's presidential legacy.

I used to worry about character too, but by now I'm jaded enough that I think it's much more realistic to simply assume that our leaders are going to lie to us, forget about character, and worry about competence.  You can still be a scoundrel and be competent and take the country in a good direction.

Jimmy Carter was an honest man and a lousy president.  Clinton was a dishonest man and a pretty good president.  I don't particularly care whether Bush lied; that he's horribly incompetent and his priorities are utterly out of whack with reality bothers me more.

I do not align myself with a political party.  I'll vote in 2008 for whomever seems less likely to make this train wreck worse.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: lowky on March 28, 2007, 08:43:08 PM


I do not align myself with a political party.  I'll vote in 2008 for whomever seems less likely to make this train wreck worse.


Eley in 2008, Promises not to derail us further!
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: Swamp on March 28, 2007, 08:46:20 PM
Eley in 2008, Promises not to derail us further!

LOL.  I can see the bumper sticker:  Eley '08 - HAVE FUN!  With a slogan like that, you never know.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: SFEley on March 28, 2007, 08:50:59 PM
Eley in 2008, Promises not to derail us further!

Heh.  Thanks, but I'll only be 34 next year, and therefore constitutionally ineligible.  Write in Ze Frank (http://www.zefrank.com/theshow/) instead.  >8->

Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: ClintMemo on March 29, 2007, 12:09:33 AM
Eley in 2008, Promises not to derail us further!

Heh.  Thanks, but I'll only be 34 next year, and therefore constitutionally ineligible.  Write in Ze Frank (http://www.zefrank.com/theshow/) instead.  >8->



Then it's not too early to start planning for 2012.

"Vote Eley in 2012 on the Podcast platform."
Any thoughts on potential cabinet positions?
How about the Word Whore for Press Secretary? 
or Frank Keys for Secretary of State?  (That whole accent thing sure worked for Kissinger.)
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: lowky on March 29, 2007, 09:42:19 AM
Scott Sigler as Secretary of De(off)ense.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: ClintMemo on March 29, 2007, 05:53:57 PM

"Noecons" have very little to do with conservatism.  Conservatives believe in limited government, responsible fiscal policy and individual rights.  Neocons apparently believe in running huge deficits and taking the rights away from people if it gets in the way of keeping themselves in power.  BTW, W's gov't is the biggest in the history of the US, so what dos that say about limited government.


Here is good, though subjective, article that talks about this in more detail.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/03/29/brooks/index.html
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: Russell Nash on March 30, 2007, 03:37:50 PM
That said democracy is about subjugating the minority's to majority opinion so I have no problems with religious groups or non religious groups enacting their democratic rights.

Does that mean it's OK to try to get there religious beliefs turned into law even when the majority do not belong to that religion?

Yes.  Thats democratic process.  In terms of democracy it's no differn't to any other "group" trying to get thier wants and desires into law.

Republicans always have a problem understanding the Bill of Rights
Quote from: U.S.Constitution
Amendment I
Freedoms, Petitions, Assembly
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

First part means. Practice what you want, but you can't use the law to force it on me. Unfortunately, it says nothing about televangelists.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: ClintMemo on March 30, 2007, 04:01:05 PM

First part means. Practice what you want, but you can't use the law to force it on me. Unfortunately, it says nothing about televangelists.

Televangelists are to religion what Professional Wrestlers are to sports.  The big difference being that with professional wrestling, the audience knows it's all just a show.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: Swamp on March 30, 2007, 05:10:12 PM
Republicans always have a problem understanding the Bill of Rights

Russell, you seem to enjoy using sweeping generalizations and condescension.

Unfortunately, it says nothing about televangelists.

I certainly hope you do not base your opinion of people with religious beliefs on the insanity of televangelism.

Quote from: U.S.Constitution
Amendment I
Freedoms, Petitions, Assembly
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

I believe FHN was referring to people’s right to vote their moral conscience based on their religious beliefs, not making religious beliefs the law.  (and so you don’t think I am talking about Intelligent Design, I do not believe this should be taught in public schools either).

I know of no law that makes it illegal not to follow a certain religion, or any religion for that matter.  However, I do see an increasing number of lawsuits trying to prohibit religious expression.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: ClintMemo on March 30, 2007, 07:05:13 PM

Republicans always have a problem understanding the Bill of Rights

Ironically, that really only applies to this current group for neocons, who have identified themselves as Republicans and just happened to be in power.   During the last century or so, it's the left that has been mostly accused of trampling on people's rights. (Ex: How many anti-gun advocates do you see that are Republicans?)

One of Reagan's positions was that we needed a government that was smaller and less involved in people's lives.  Much of the power transfer that has happened from the legislative branch to the executive branch started with FDR.  Note that no president since then has willingly given any of it back.  :P

W has done something I never thought possible. He has made me think of Reagan as a good president.  I HATED Reagan when he was in office. Now I wish I had him back instead of W.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: ClintMemo on March 30, 2007, 07:14:48 PM
And just to clarify, the US is not and never has been a democracy.  It is a constitutional republic.  In a democracy, people would vote for law directly.  Some of the ancient Greek city states (Athens?) actually did things this way, though not everyone was allowed to vote.  In a republic, people elect other people to make decisions for them.  The constitution is supposed to outline what powers each of the branches of government have.  Originally, most of the power sat with the legislative branch.  The president was supposed to be an administrator that executed the will of congress. His power to veto was a check to ensure that congress did not get out of control.  What has happened over time is that congress has decided to solve problems be passing laws to create agencies to address issues and assigning the president the responsibility of managing those agencies.  It's not hard to see where this has led.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: RichGarner on March 30, 2007, 08:00:35 PM
Quote from: U.S.Constitution
Amendment I
Freedoms, Petitions, Assembly
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The way I read this is that we cannot make a law that forces you to go to church or to pray or accept Christian holiday material at your place of work or so on.

But this also tells me that we cannot make a law that prevents you from going to church, or praying, or accepting Christian holiday material or so on.

If I read that correctly, can someone please explain to me why my children are prevented from praying in school but are forced to learn about homosexuality in class??? And please don't mention the church/state thing. The Bill of Rights applies to all Americans... state-runners and church-goers alike.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: Swamp on March 30, 2007, 08:49:31 PM
can someone please explain to me why my children are prevented from praying in school...

Maybe you can educate me here.  Are there actually any laws that prevent your child from saying a personal prayer while at school?  Prayers do not have to be heard by all or publically expressed.  Prayer is a very personal thing.  If your child said an unobtrusive silent prayer before a test or before eating lunch, would anyone really object?  Is he/she prevented from sharing their personal religious beliefs with their friends?
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: RichGarner on March 30, 2007, 09:05:59 PM
My youngest boys only pray outloud. They do this because we have taught they how to pray and they usually follow our examples. But they have also grown up in a family and among a very large church group that teaches we always pray before meals.

I'm not expecting the schools to force all kids to pray, but I think it is within their ability to allow a brief time for optional prayer. Kids are reminded to put their coats on the hook, bring their books to their desk, do their work silently, bring their money to the lunch room, and clean up when they make a mess... is it really such a huge stretch to remind the kids that, if they wish, now is the time for a silent prayer.

And yes. Sometimes, when my kids pray to themselves, either the teacher interrupts them with something or the kids tease them.

I agree that there is no "expressed" prevention of prayer... but there seems to be an assumed prevention shared by most of the teachers I know.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: Swamp on March 30, 2007, 10:51:57 PM
I see where you are coming from.  Of our four kids, my oldest daughter is the only one going to school right now (1st grade).  We pray as a family in the morning before she goes to school; and we have taught her that if she is having a hard time with something she is learning, she can always say a prayer for help.  She hasn't reported any teasing or interference from the teacher.  That doesn't mean it didn't happen to your kids.

Still, I think it would be hard, and inappropriate, to mandate that teachers of every class in every public school set aside a time for optional prayer.  Of course, an individual teacher also should not be prevented from doing so at their discretion, as long as they are not proselyting.  This would not violate "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion".
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: Heradel on March 30, 2007, 11:22:48 PM
From the one-year-out-of-public-school perspective:

Virginia requires a minute of silence at the beginning of the school day, right before the Pledge of Allegiance. Having gone from K-12 in Northern Virginia public schools, I cannot recall any incidents of actually seeing anyone trying to pray during that minute. Granted, my memories of the k-6 years are hazy, but honestly most of us were just trying to talk for a bit before class started.

That said, in high school I did see some students pray (pretty uniformly silently) before lunch (those few times I was eating in the cafeteria), but they were by far in the minority (out of about 1600 students, maybe 30). This was in a highly diverse (~43% white, 15% black, 25% hispanic, rest asian/misc) school. Incidentally the school's usually around 17-30 in Newsweek's top 50 High Schools, so~.

I'm an Atheist and it never really bothered me, except for the waste that was the minute of silence. It might not seem like much out of a day, but in a 45-minute class... well, it's time that's usually just wasted. And honestly Kmmrlatham, good teachers need that time to teach. The point of school is to teach and learn, not pray.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: lowky on March 31, 2007, 01:39:11 AM

W has done something I never thought possible. He has made me think of Reagan as a good president.  I HATED Reagan when he was in office. Now I wish I had him back instead of W.

Zombie Reagan with Alzheimers in 08, he's better than Dubya!
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: Swamp on March 31, 2007, 02:24:19 AM
And honestly Kmmrlatham, good teachers need that time to teach. The point of school is to teach and learn, not pray.

That's cool.  I was just trying to see where Rich was coming from with his experience.  I'm glad to hear yours.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: SFEley on March 31, 2007, 04:30:08 AM
Republicans always have a problem understanding the Bill of Rights

Folks: let's not verge into insult here. 

I'm going to be gone for a week.  Please play nice.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: SFEley on March 31, 2007, 04:45:56 AM
If I read that correctly, can someone please explain to me why my children are prevented from praying in school but are forced to learn about homosexuality in class???

Homosexuality is not a religious subject.  It's a human behavior that verifiably exists and is a fit subject for study in a psychology, sociology, biology, or health class.

The goal of education is to teach about the world.  I don't believe it's ever appropriate to suppress knowledge.  You don't get healthy, thinking human beings that way.  If you wish to guide your children in how to interpret the knowledge they gain from education, that's your purview.  But to maintain ignorance about the world and about the people in it for religious reasons...  Well, not only is that an inappropriate foundation for public education, but I also believe it ultimately hurts the religion involved. 

The way to get good spiritual leaders and good human beings is for them to know, understand, and empathize as much as possible.  With everyone.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: torchape on March 31, 2007, 05:09:42 PM


More recently if you look at the dates Jan 1999-Jan 2001, you see the debt in the last two years of the Clinton administration went up 46 Billion dollars. Sounds like a lot, but from Jan.2005-Jan 2007 the debt went up 1.89 Trillion dollars. Last two years of Bush I (Sept 1990-Sept 1992) the debt went up 831 Billion dollars. Last two years of Reagan (sept 1986-Sept 1988) the debt went up 477 Billion. That was more than a 20% increase in two years. These numbers don't even take into account inflation(these are all unadjusted numbers) or the fact that each subsequent administration had to deal with the debt left behind by the previous one.


When you look at debt, income, and spending as a dollar amount, the numbers are staggering. But when these numbers are compared to other factors like Gross Domestic Product, they take on a much less ominous appearance. Reagan and Bush I did increase the percentage of debt/GDP from about 35% to near 70%during his administration. Clinton began to reduce that and got it all the way down to around 63%. It wasn't until Bush II's fourth year that his debt/GDP reached the level of Clinton's. I have the percentages at work but here I couldn't find the website that has all the percentages by year. The GDP has been growing at around 3% per quarter so the debt/GDP has remained around 66%. That is still too high, but at least it hasn't significantly increased since Reagan-Bush. Other nations are far worse off than we are. The average Euro level is about 80%. Japan's is 170%. Italy's is 107%. Our highest was in 1945 and was 121%. Looking at dollar amounts is meaningless unless it is compared to something else. My house here in Colorado is worth about $190,000 but, in Los Angeles, it would be worth $600,000.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: RichGarner on March 31, 2007, 09:08:10 PM
If I read that correctly, can someone please explain to me why my children are prevented from praying in school but are forced to learn about homosexuality in class???

Homosexuality is not a religious subject.  It's a human behavior that verifiably exists and is a fit subject for study in a psychology, sociology, biology, or health class.

The goal of education is to teach about the world.  I don't believe it's ever appropriate to suppress knowledge.  You don't get healthy, thinking human beings that way.  If you wish to guide your children in how to interpret the knowledge they gain from education, that's your purview.  But to maintain ignorance about the world and about the people in it for religious reasons...  Well, not only is that an inappropriate foundation for public education, but I also believe it ultimately hurts the religion involved. 

The way to get good spiritual leaders and good human beings is for them to know, understand, and empathize as much as possible.  With everyone.


I completely agree. However there is a difference between teaching the concept of homosexuality and training children to regard it as universally accepted behavior. I have nothing against teaching my kids about the truths of life. But when schools teach against our religious beliefs by glorifying (for lack of a better word) homosexual practices as perfectly normal behavior, I take issue.

Don't misread me. I'm not saying that it should be removed from schools or that it should be suppressed in any way. But when it is taught as acceptable and normal but prayer is looked down on... there's something wrong there.

I'm waiting for a day when it's P.C. to be a Christian. I'm sure I'm in for a long wait.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: Heradel on March 31, 2007, 09:36:35 PM
I completely agree. However there is a difference between teaching the concept of homosexuality and training children to regard it as universally accepted behavior. I have nothing against teaching my kids about the truths of life. But when schools teach against our religious beliefs by glorifying (for lack of a better word) homosexual practices as perfectly normal behavior, I take issue.

What do you mean by accepted? I think any public school has to teach that it's wrong to vilify any of it's students for who they are, be it along gender, race, orientation, etc. It would be as wrong to encourage the behavior, but acceptance of gay students (and gay teachers) is a Constitutional requirement, setting aside the obvious moral need.

No school I've been to has 'glorified' homosexuality. They also don't glorify heterosexuality. They teach that both happen, and it's wrong to exclude/tease/hurt/bully students because of that orientation. Glorifying would be them saying that it's better, but they don't. They just put them on an equal standing (which, I know, can be objectionable). I'd like it to the same way that they don't teach that blond hair is better than brown hair, or blue eyes better than brown eyes. Students don't have control over those (well, hair...), so schools need to make it so that it's not treated as something that matters. Same for skin color, gender, what side of the tracks you grew up on. 

I'm sure your children will have gay classmates. I did. I have gay friends, have had gay teachers, and a gay roommate for a bit at college. Your value system says that their romantic relationships are on a lower level than that of heterosexual relationships, but the school can't teach that. They can teach acceptance, and they have to. Otherwise those gay students will end up getting picked on. They probably will anyway. But the school has to do what it can.

Quote
Don't misread me. I'm not saying that it should be removed from schools or that it should be suppressed in any way. But when it is taught as acceptable and normal but prayer is looked down on... there's something wrong there.
It's not looked down upon, it's just not the function of school to be a place for prayer. Schools are a place for learning, not prayer.

Quote
I'm waiting for a day when it's P.C. to be a Christian. I'm sure I'm in for a long wait.

Just as I wait for a day when it's fine to run for the presidency openly as an Atheist.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: ClintMemo on April 01, 2007, 07:13:59 PM

I'm waiting for a day when it's P.C. to be a Christian. I'm sure I'm in for a long wait.


Move here.  I live in Louisville, Ky. Where I live, it's socially acceptable to be a Christian.  It's not socially acceptable to be anything else.  I was born Catholic (but I'm in recovery now - hehe).  I'm about two baby steps away from declaring myself an atheist.  I'm not sure if it's due to a loss of faith or just an emotional reaction to my universally negative experiences with religion over the last several years.  I've taken a "don't ask, don't tell" policy with religion in my day to day life.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: RichGarner on April 02, 2007, 12:45:44 AM

I'm waiting for a day when it's P.C. to be a Christian. I'm sure I'm in for a long wait.


Move here.  I live in Louisville, Ky. Where I live, it's socially acceptable to be a Christian.  It's not socially acceptable to be anything else.  I was born Catholic (but I'm in recovery now - hehe).  I'm about two baby steps away from declaring myself an atheist.  I'm not sure if it's due to a loss of faith or just an emotional reaction to my universally negative experiences with religion over the last several years.  I've taken a "don't ask, don't tell" policy with religion in my day to day life.

Cool.

About the KY thing... not the atheist thing.
I'll reserve my comments on that for a religious topic and return this topic to the neoconservative issue.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: ClintMemo on April 02, 2007, 12:49:53 AM

About the KY thing... not the atheist thing.
I'll reserve my comments on that for a religious topic and return this topic to the neoconservative issue.

Unfortunately, those two topics are so intermangled that you can't talk about Neoconservatism without talking about religion.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: FNH on April 02, 2007, 08:46:39 PM
Homosexuality is not a religious subject.  It's a human behavior that verifiably exists and is a fit subject for study in a psychology, sociology, biology, or health class.

What on Earth is there to study on that particular subject?  I wouldn't want children having any sexual education from any Institution.  My experience is that schools teach sex, without any thoughts of love, responsibility or consequence.  Way too cold. 

The way to get good spiritual leaders and good human beings is for them to know, understand, and empathize as much as possible.  With everyone.

Almost with you there. Rather than "empathize" I would say, "understand".  Your version suggests some agreement.  If you agree with everyone your in a world of confusion.

Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: ClintMemo on April 03, 2007, 12:16:32 AM
What on Earth is there to study on that particular subject?  I wouldn't want children having any sexual education from any Institution.  My experience is that schools teach sex, without any thoughts of love, responsibility or consequence.  Way too cold. 

It's much better for kids to learn the practical issues of sex (like STD and birth control) BEFORE their hormones convince them to find out for themselves.

I always find it amusing when people are both anti-abortion and anti-sex education, but, in retrospect, I guess it's no different than wanting both fewer taxes and more government spending.

Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: Heradel on April 03, 2007, 01:02:47 AM
Homosexuality is not a religious subject.  It's a human behavior that verifiably exists and is a fit subject for study in a psychology, sociology, biology, or health class.

What on Earth is there to study on that particular subject?  I wouldn't want children having any sexual education from any Institution.  My experience is that schools teach sex, without any thoughts of love, responsibility or consequence.  Way too cold. 

Oi, in heath/science class yeah, because they're dealing with the physicality and grim realities of the situations. And from my experience, they do focus on the responsibility and consequences more than a bit. The love part, well, that's for English class to teach.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: SFEley on April 09, 2007, 03:52:56 AM
What on Earth is there to study on that particular subject?  I wouldn't want children having any sexual education from any Institution.  My experience is that schools teach sex, without any thoughts of love, responsibility or consequence.  Way too cold.

Then maybe the answer isn't to ignore sex, but to address the related issues more deeply.

The downside of having no formal education on these topics is that all of what human beings learn about sex, relationships, and the ethics of intimacy is going to come from oral lore: from their peers, parents, and (sometimes) religious advisors.  The problem with this is that the quality of the information is unreliable.  These groups should all have input, but many parents are dangerously ignorant about sex and relationships; peers almost always are; and religions are wildly variable in their emphasis on the health of the individual.

These topics are all studied, and studied well.  But most people don't know that.  Giving young people access to good information about sex and relationships in real life can only help by giving everyone a common foundation.  Peers, parents, and religions can then serve as adjuncts, examples, and interpretive guides.  They needn't be the only sources.


Almost with you there. Rather than "empathize" I would say, "understand".  Your version suggests some agreement.  If you agree with everyone your in a world of confusion.

I don't agree that empathy connotes agreement.  I think it's fully possible to empathize with someone, to know where they're coming from and what their problems are, and still object to how they responded to them.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: Michael on April 11, 2007, 09:08:05 AM
Quote
I don't agree that empathy connotes agreement.  I think it's fully possible to empathize with someone, to know where they're coming from and what their problems are, and still object to how they responded to them.

Many people confuse the words empathy and sympathy.  You can understand a persons position without having "feelings of favor, support, or loyalty" for that position.  My job is to be empathetic rather than sympathetic.   

Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: Bdoomed on April 18, 2007, 04:00:02 AM
The downside of having no formal education on these topics is that all of what human beings learn about sex, relationships, and the ethics of intimacy is going to come from oral lore: from their peers, parents, and (sometimes) religious advisors.  The problem with this is that the quality of the information is unreliable.  These groups should all have input, but many parents are dangerously ignorant about sex and relationships; peers almost always are; and religions are wildly variable in their emphasis on the health of the individual.

These topics are all studied, and studied well.  But most people don't know that.  Giving young people access to good information about sex and relationships in real life can only help by giving everyone a common foundation.  Peers, parents, and religions can then serve as adjuncts, examples, and interpretive guides.  They needn't be the only sources.
Hmm... personally, most of the sex-education ive recieved has been completely useless to me.  The only sex ed. class in which i kind of learned something was in 5th grade in elementry school, and back then, that was the last thing i cared about.  After that, all the highschool sex ed was just repeating stuff i already knew from convorsations.  Maybe i just have more common sense than other people my age, and dont fool around like everyone else. (im a good kid... i dont WANT to be but i am)
And yes. Sometimes, when my kids pray to themselves, either the teacher interrupts them with something or the kids tease them.
now, personally i dont care about prayer.  at my school we have a moment of silence after the pledge, but i have never seen anyone pray (maybe there are those who pray at my school but i dont see it).  Anyways, while it does not concern me whether people pray or not, it does kinda make me mad knowing that a teacher would interrupt a student during his/her time of prayer.  I understand the significance of prayer to some people, and that should be respected.  Teasing because of praying is even worse.  Those who tease are most likely Christian as well, and they should be even MORE respectful to those who choose to pray.  There is a difference between not believing in another's lifestyle and bullying them about it.

This also applies to gays.  I cant say i believe in their lifestyle, but i dont abhor it, i pretty much just dont care.  If yer gay, yer gay, i dont need to know, and if i do know, live and let live.  This is really the only thing i have against certain religious groups.  I dont like the people who say that being gay, athiest, whatever, is wrong.  Its not wrong, its a state of being, and everyone has the right to their own life.  being gay is NOT a choice, it has been scientifically, psychologically, and common sense-ly proven so. (and if ya thing being gay is terrible, food for thought: most everyone in ancient Greece and Rome slept with young boys... now sleepin with young boys is gross, im sure all of us agree on that, but hey, look at what theyve accomplished)  being an athiest or whatever is a choice.  no one HAS to believe in a higher power.  no one HAS to believe in anything.  personally, I've given up religion, yet i still believe in God. (i believe the actual correct term for that is infidel... doesnt sound too great of a name... damn you Islamic extremists!)  I just figure that i dont need a religion to govern how i believe in God, ill do that on my own terms.

And there is a big gap between empathetic and sympathetic.  It is one thing to understand someone and what they believe.  its another thing to care or support that belief.  I can empathize with someone who killed his wife because she cheated on him, but i'd be damned if i sympathize with him.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: RichGarner on April 18, 2007, 04:52:26 PM
And yes. Sometimes, when my kids pray to themselves, either the teacher interrupts them with something or the kids tease them.
now, personally i dont care about prayer.  at my school we have a moment of silence after the pledge, but i have never seen anyone pray (maybe there are those who pray at my school but i dont see it).  Anyways, while it does not concern me whether people pray or not, it does kinda make me mad knowing that a teacher would interrupt a student during his/her time of prayer.  I understand the significance of prayer to some people, and that should be respected.  Teasing because of praying is even worse.  Those who tease are most likely Christian as well, and they should be even MORE respectful to those who choose to pray.  There is a difference between not believing in another's lifestyle and bullying them about it.

This also applies to gays.  I cant say i believe in their lifestyle, but i dont abhor it, i pretty much just dont care.  If yer gay, yer gay, i dont need to know, and if i do know, live and let live.  This is really the only thing i have against certain religious groups.  I dont like the people who say that being gay, athiest, whatever, is wrong.  Its not wrong, its a state of being, and everyone has the right to their own life.  being gay is NOT a choice, it has been scientifically, psychologically, and common sense-ly proven so. (and if ya thing being gay is terrible, food for thought: most everyone in ancient Greece and Rome slept with young boys... now sleepin with young boys is gross, im sure all of us agree on that, but hey, look at what theyve accomplished)  being an athiest or whatever is a choice.  no one HAS to believe in a higher power.  no one HAS to believe in anything.  personally, I've given up religion, yet i still believe in God. (i believe the actual correct term for that is infidel... doesnt sound too great of a name... damn you Islamic extremists!)  I just figure that i dont need a religion to govern how i believe in God, ill do that on my own terms.

And there is a big gap between empathetic and sympathetic.  It is one thing to understand someone and what they believe.  its another thing to care or support that belief.  I can empathize with someone who killed his wife because she cheated on him, but i'd be damned if i sympathize with him.

I agree... to a point. But I subscribe to the thinking that there is a difference in "being" homosexual, and "practicing" homosexuality.

If I were a pedophile, I would have a natural desire in little children. Sleeping with them, touching them, hurting them... whatever. Now I can CHOOSE to ignore these desires and maybe only entertain them in thought or fantasy. Or I can CHOOSE to follow them and try to fulfill my desires. Which choice do you think would be best? Best for me? Best for society?

Now, I completely understand that homosexuals cannot be fairly compared to pedophiles... a gay relationship is based on trust between consenting adults. I get it. But the idea of allowing desires to define who we are is wrong in my mind... no matter what the desires are.

We all have desires that could be harmful if left unchecked. Some of us have dangerous or even deadly desires. Some of us have more peaceful and nurturing desires. But I believe that if we allow our desires to define us, we lose our identify... possibly even our soul.

My 6.5 cents.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: Heradel on April 18, 2007, 06:49:38 PM
I agree... to a point. But I subscribe to the thinking that there is a difference in "being" homosexual, and "practicing" homosexuality.

If I were a pedophile, I would have a natural desire in little children. Sleeping with them, touching them, hurting them... whatever. Now I can CHOOSE to ignore these desires and maybe only entertain them in thought or fantasy. Or I can CHOOSE to follow them and try to fulfill my desires. Which choice do you think would be best? Best for me? Best for society?

Now, I completely understand that homosexuals cannot be fairly compared to pedophiles... a gay relationship is based on trust between consenting adults. I get it. But the idea of allowing desires to define who we are is wrong in my mind... no matter what the desires are.

We all have desires that could be harmful if left unchecked. Some of us have dangerous or even deadly desires. Some of us have more peaceful and nurturing desires. But I believe that if we allow our desires to define us, we lose our identify... possibly even our soul.

My 6.5 cents.

Well, I live in NYC. I look out the window around the Columbus Circle area and I'm easily seeing over a thousand people. I'd argue that propagation of the species isn't really as big a deal anymore. And at this point, with the large numbers of unadopted orphans (ignoring the no-gay-adoption arguments, which I find unconvincing), married/civil union-'ed gay couples that adopt can help make a dent in that population and I think we'd all rather have that than have the state raising them (not to belittle the workers in the state system).

Society is more complex these days than it was back in biblical times. Modern medicine, capitalist systems, exponentially increased global population (less than a fourth billion at the time of Christ versus 7 billion these days), and global communications. Relationships for love's sake and not for procreation are permissible, and in light of possible overpopulation, desirable in a percentage of the population.

You're saying it's not fair to homosexuals to liken then to pedophiles, but your argument rests on the "desire" which the pedophile feels, and which is bad for society. Then you start talking about gay desires, which reads to me to imply a link between the two desires in terms of their relative badness. Honestly, even if you do say that it's not fair, it doesn't absolve you of the fact that it really does seem like you're doing it anyway.

As for desires... I desire female companionship. I don't let that desire define me, but I do have a girlfriend who I love. My desire/attraction doesn't define me, but I don't ignore it either. Gay men/women desire members of their own sex. I've known more than a few, and I've never met one that's whole existence was based on their desire for members of the same sex.

Honestly, I think the loss of a soul would be quicker done by the ignoring of that desire and attempting to redefine themselves against an external coda rather than what is in them.

I don't think their desire is a dangerous one, nor is it an evil one. Judeo-Christian literalism does. It was also written a minimum of about 1600 years ago, and human society has gone through some fundamental changes since then. Some of the sayings in the bible are timeless(thou shalt not kill, love thy neighbor), and some aren't(slavery). But the inability to reevaluate old teachings against the modern world is one of the more troubling parts of any form of fundamentalism.

Back in those days, it's arguable that slavery was good and homosexuality was bad for society. These days?
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: RichGarner on April 18, 2007, 11:22:57 PM
Good points.

As for slavery these days... I don't know. Some would argue that working for Sony or Electronic Arts constitutes slavery.

As for the rest. I guess as a true Christian (one who considers Jesus to be Lord of my life and not just a term to throw around to sound good), it obvious that I do not condone the act of homosexuality any more than pedophilia. But my point was simply to state that I do not judge a person to be bad or good regardless of their lifestyle. I have a few gay friends and they know that I stand up for my beliefs. But they also know that I am their friend and that will never change.

The fact is that desires CAN lead to self delusion. And, in my opinion, there is a Christian fundamental teaching that says certain desires are morally wrong. The difference is that if a person neither follows Christian fundamental teaching nor desires to learn about Christian fundamental teaching, that 'morally wrong' desire is suddenly an acceptable lifestyle decision.

It's completely in the power of the individual. But one should never underestimate the deceptive nature of one's own desires.

Gee. I don't preach this much at church. I should stop before I need to take up a collection.
Title: Re: Neoconservatism
Post by: SFEley on April 18, 2007, 11:41:25 PM
Now, I completely understand that homosexuals cannot be fairly compared to pedophiles...

And yet you had to go there anyway.

This discussion is over.  Locked.  Any complaints, you know how to PM me.