Escape Artists

Escape Pod => Science Fiction Discussion => Topic started by: Holden on May 08, 2007, 08:28:59 PM

Title: Vonnegut
Post by: Holden on May 08, 2007, 08:28:59 PM: Awesome Vonnegut short SF story. I recommend Cat's Cradle as well.

http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/hb.html

Due to possible copywrite concerns discussed below, I have changed my original post to a link. I had originally posted the full text of the story. My apologies to anyone I might have offended. I am a fan of the work and wanted others to enjoy it as well. With as readily available as this story is on the web, copywrite possibilities did not appear to be a concern. I recognize this is flawed thinking and offer my apology.

If anyone feels that even posting the link is offensive, let me know and I will delete it.
Title: Re: Vonnegut
Post by: Simon on May 09, 2007, 08:49:04 AM: Harrison Bergeron is one of Vonnegut's classic short stories... I have always loved this one (there was a truly awful TV movie based on it, that Equilibrium really reminded me of).

However, this doesn't change the fact that so soon after the artists death you're jumping in with a copyright violation. In general I am opposed to IP but I think that's besides the point here. Escape Pod (who by being creative commons invest a lot in the IP argument) should not be made to host this sort of thing, further its pretty distasteful to post it so soon after the author's death when (unlike some of his mass copied rants) it was originally sold in book form (this is in Welcome To The Monkey House)...

I think this should be removed out of respect to the author.
Title: Re: Vonnegut
Post by: Thaurismunths on May 09, 2007, 10:32:56 AM: Quote from: Simon on May 09, 2007, 08:49:04 AM
However, this doesn't change the fact that so soon after the artists death you're jumping in with a copyright violation. In general I am opposed to IP but I think that's besides the point here. Escape Pod (who by being creative commons invest a lot in the IP argument) should not be made to host this sort of thing, further its pretty distasteful to post it so soon after the author's death when (unlike some of his mass copied rants) it was originally sold in book form (this is in Welcome To The Monkey House)...

I think this should be removed out of respect to the author.
I share your concern about the legality of posting this story, but not your conviction. Although it's a bit gauche to leave the story's title and author off the post, I don't know if that's a violation of copyright standards. Also, I've found the full text of this story in several places on the internet, but haven't found a copyright date attached to it so it may not be copyrighted.
Do you happen to have the current copyright information, Simon?
Or, to play it really safe, Holden could post just the link to the story.
Title: Re: Vonnegut
Post by: Simon on May 09, 2007, 10:59:58 AM: Heya,

Yeah, feeling a little ashamed of my conviction to be honest: I have been such a hard-ass opponent of all IP elsewhere on the web that this one is close to going completely against my principles... Lets just say I am such a Vonnegut worshipper that this stuck in my usually Anarchist/Libertarian craw.

But, being a hardass opponent of IP does mean I have a passing knowledge of the appropriate laws, so:

The work was first published in 1961. Under US IP law previous to the Copyright Act of '76 there was a requirement for renewal after twenty eight years after publication, whereas the '76 law turned it to life + 50 years and the Sonny Bono act made it life + 70 years... Therefore unless Vonnegut has since handed this over to the public domain (I can't find a record of this) then it's still covered as copyright, and will be covered up till 2077 (stupid bloody Sonny Bono, it's obscene)...

I think it is the brevity of this piece is probably the reason it's across the web, it is commonly taught in schools and I suspect that some obliging lecturer has stuck it up as class-notes. I dont know what the legal status is of the academic use of copyrighted material in English teaching, but I suspect it's probably a generally accepted minor-league copyright violation. Further, I don't think it counts as fair use (since the work is printed entire without addition or adaptation)...

I don't know whether Vonnegut himself handed this over to the PD, or Creative Commons... But in a 10 minute search I couldn't find conformation that he had. Wouldn't be in the least bit out of character tho, and it's probably necessary if your work is going to be done at length in schools.

On the other hand there are lyrics plastered over the entire web, which shows there is a general usage consensus that sufficiently brief pieces can be used in any form you like... Or to put it another way: Sorry poets, but you guys are out of business.
Title: Re: Vonnegut
Post by: Thaurismunths on May 09, 2007, 11:16:12 AM: Quote from: Simon on May 09, 2007, 10:59:58 AM
Heya,

Yeah, feeling a little ashamed of my conviction to be honest: I have been such a hard-ass opponent of all IP elsewhere on the web that this one is close to going completely against my principles... Lets just say I am such a Vonnegut worshipper that this stuck in my usually Anarchist/Libertarian craw.
Hey, no reason to be ashamed of having convictions or defending them, and it looks like you have an idea of what you're talking about. Thanks for standing up and saying so.
Unfortunately, it looks like this thread could be floating in some murky water.
Title: Re: Vonnegut
Post by: jrderego on May 09, 2007, 12:29:54 PM: Quote from: Simon on May 09, 2007, 08:49:04 AM
Harrison Bergeron is one of Vonnegut's classic short stories... I have always loved this one (there was a truly awful TV movie based on it, that Equilibrium really reminded me of).

However, this doesn't change the fact that so soon after the artists death you're jumping in with a copyright violation. In general I am opposed to IP but I think that's besides the point here. Escape Pod (who by being creative commons invest a lot in the IP argument) should not be made to host this sort of thing, further its pretty distasteful to post it so soon after the author's death when (unlike some of his mass copied rants) it was originally sold in book form (this is in Welcome To The Monkey House)...

I think this should be removed out of respect to the author.

I really enjoyed the adaptation they did for this one. Thought it expanded on the characters in the story, and changed Harrison from a giant muscle man to a super-genius, the alterations made for a very though provoking film. And while I loved the short story, I didn't feel the film failed to do the source material justice. But then, I liked all of the Vonnegut adaptations I've seen, Mother Night, and Slaughterhouse 5 included. His work seems to lend itself really well to the screen.

I hope someday they will film God Bless You Mr. Rosewater.
Title: Re: Vonnegut
Post by: Simon on May 09, 2007, 01:03:07 PM: [commenting after the revision of the leader post]

Just wanted to stick my head up to Holden, hope I didn't offend with my comments, and it was good to re-read this one again... I haven't had a copy of WTTMH in a few years (leant to an ex-girlfriend along with a significant proportion of my Graham Greenes)...

On mention of Vonnegut movies: I absolutely love Mother Night... I thought they got the tone perfectly, and I loved Alan Arkin in it (what is it with that man and 60's zeitgeist movies). I never did go see Bruce Willis's Breakfast Of Champions tho... It just felt unfilmable and Bruce, I couldn't see him in it.

So, to Holden, Excuse me if I was a bit of an ass.
Title: Re: Vonnegut
Post by: Holden on May 09, 2007, 02:49:46 PM: Simon, I'll never fault someone for speaking out. You raised a legitimate concern.
Title: Re: Vonnegut
Post by: Holden on May 09, 2007, 07:06:30 PM: Being politically conservative, I find myself often defending the position that "fair" and "equal" are not synonymous. Harrison Bergeron appeals to me not only because it is a fun short story, which it is, but also because it depicts the absurdity of a world with absolute equality of all humans.
Title: Re: Vonnegut
Post by: Anarkey on May 12, 2007, 03:44:02 PM: Quote from: Holden on May 09, 2007, 07:06:30 PM
Being politically conservative, I find myself often defending the position that "fair" and "equal" are not synonymous. Harrison Bergeron appeals to me not only because it is a fun short story, which it is, but also because it depicts the absurdity of a world with absolute equality of all humans.

How amusing. I love that story and often find myself in the exact same position as you, such as on the infamous gender thread of this very board. Except s/politically conservative/politically liberal.

Vonnegut was a genius, his truths came as close to the axis of universal as I think it's possible for a writer to approach.
Title: Re: Vonnegut
Post by: Holden on May 14, 2007, 04:44:12 PM: Yes, Vonnegut was amazing. I would probably put him somewhere on my list of top 100 favorite authors of all time. (Now THAT sounds like a fun list to make!)

In an English Lit class I took about 10 years ago, the professor told a story about the day she met Vonnegut. She had attended a writing seminar which included Vonnegut as a guest speaker. She said there was about 20 or so aspiring writers who, like herself, were looking forward to hearing Vonnegut speak. When he spoke, he began by saying, 'I'm not going to talk about writing. None of you will ever be as good as me, so instead I'm just going to talk about myself.' She said no one there appeared offended by this, including herself. I don't know if the story's true, but it's one of the few things that I remember from that professor.
Title: Re: Vonnegut
Post by: Zathras on May 14, 2007, 06:26:57 PM: Quote from: Simon on May 09, 2007, 01:03:07 PM

On mention of Vonnegut movies: I absolutely love Mother Night... I thought they got the tone perfectly, and I loved Alan Arkin in it (what is it with that man and 60's zeitgeist movies). I never did go see Bruce Willis's Breakfast Of Champions tho... It just felt unfilmable and Bruce, I couldn't see him in it.

Mother Night ......great stuff. The writer and producer for Mother Night was Robert Weide, you may have heard of one of his well known HBO shows: Curb Your Enthusiasm.

I saw Vonnegut speak at a high school in a Chicago suburb 10 years ago maybe. He was as sharp as a tack. You can still read some of his "In These Times" commentaries on their website.