Escape Artists
Escape Pod => Episode Comments => Topic started by: Russell Nash on August 16, 2007, 07:43:14 PM
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EP119: Aliens Want Our Women (http://escapepod.org/2007/08/16/ep119-aliens-want-our-women/)
By Ramona Louise Wheeler (http://hometown.aol.com/tokapu/index.htm?f=fs).
Read by Leann Mabry (of Tag in the Seam (http://www.tagintheseam.com/)).
He was a widower, weary of too many years of loneliness. He had decided to travel to someplace distant and exotic, in hopes of finding as a companion someone completely different from his lost love. He had chosen Earth for its very remoteness.
“I want to marry the most wonderful woman on Earth,” he said.
Every female on the planet had just acquired a brand new agenda in life.
Rated G. Contains gender role stereotyping, but no strong sex, language or violence. Sorry.
Blog of the Week:
The Evil Eyebrow (http://www.evileyebrow.com/web/bp/billblog/)
(receives The John W. Campbell Letters, Vol. 1 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0931150167/escapepod-20))
Referenced Sites:
Polyamory Weekly (http://www.polyweekly.com/)
The DrabbleCast (http://web.mac.com/normsherman/iWeb/Site/Podcast/Podcast.html)
(http://escapepod.org/wp-images/podcast-mini4.gif)
Listen to this week’s Escape Pod! (http://media.escapepod.org/EP119_AliensWantOurWomen.mp3)
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Huh.
"Sex and the City" meets "Childhood's End" (well, the first half of "Childhood's End", at least), and, perhaps, also meeting "Bluebeard", depending on what you think is going to happen next.
Instead of debating whether or not this story is SF, I'm going to debate whether or not this story is a relationship story - there is no actual *relationship* here, between the narrator and her alien husband - there's basically a prolonged blind date. It may or may not be the prelude to a relationship (depending on what the wives die from), but it's basically a tale of women acting really, really stupid over a handsome stranger, writ large. I'm harboring a suspicion that it's meant to be ironic, but I'm not entirely sure.
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Well written, but I don't like it.
The premise is misogynistic: Jealousy is the most powerful force in the feminine psyche? The alien asserts that women motived by the desire to discover and achieve would take centuries to develop star-drive, if they ever got around to it at all, while women motivated by jealousy will get it done in a snap. The desire to see the galaxy will not get women off the couch, but the desire to be arm-candy for an alien hunk will make them work tirelessly.
That's demeaning, and not funny, and the story doesn't seem to have much point beyond delivering this rather heavy-handed insult to female dignity. And I don't think it's true: The average woman has a much greater breadth of interest than competing for the most eligible bachelor.
The spaceships were cool.
Thumbs down from me.
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I'm not sure I'd go so far as call this misogynistic - it seems to me to be on par of a lot of woman-oriented entertainment, which seems to delight in perpetuating these stereotypes. But then, I'm a man, and I'm a bit wary of being overly critical on this point, since maybe I just don't get it.
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This was an okay story as it qualified under the fun category, but, yeah, it was a bit shallow.
Understatement of the week:
Contains gender role stereotyping...
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I can suspend belief for a little bit on a story like this, but come on...women inventing interstellar travel? They can't even do math. ...
I keed, I keed...
This was an interesting story. I question the part about the rest of the galaxy not contacting civilizations until they have a constitution. Only about 300 million Americans are living under a constitution of some sort right now. Lots of people in other countries are still under feudal or dictatorial rule. Would the aliens only talk to US citizens? Also, when the constitution was written there wasn't such a thing as radio, so how would they know we were even here and that we wrote a constitution? That was my biggest gripe about this story. Overall it was fun, but not great.
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Well, I think it's not important how many humans actually live under the constitution, what matters is that humans can come up with one - it's either a cognitive or moral aptitude test.
I don't think we're meant to think to much about the practicalities of how they figured out we're here. Maybe the aliens patrol the galaxy looking for planets that support life, and when they find one, they periodically check to see if it developed a constitution yet. If they have low-cost FTL travel, it may be feasible to do so.
But I don't think that there's much point thinking too much about the logical underpinnings of this story.
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I was surprised at how sexist I found this story (mainly because I am male and usually don't care about or notice such things). I can deal with a story that has a sexist character and chalk it up to a character flaw. But, to me and I maybe completely wrong here, the whole story was a set up for one big sexist statement. It was poor twist ending that left me feeling cheated. So I guess I have to give kudos to the author for the first 90% of the story because it really sucked me in.
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I´m quite sure that what I´m about to write is also influenced by a particularly condescending discussion (concerning the uselessness of female scientists and the superiority of US science) I got involved in today, so take it into account that I´m in a oversensitive mood, especially concerning these topics.
I haven´t finished listening to the story ´cause I´m already annoyed at it and I´m not interested enough in it to find out the twist. I reckon can figure it out from the other comments here and, if that´s it, it´ll just annoy me more.
I have a feeling the author meant for the heroine (I´m going to use Romance genre descriptions here) to be Trillian (several dropped half lines about wanting to get off planet even if she stole his ship, and about being over qualified). This may have worked if the author actually followed that through, but didn´t. Rather it appeared she cut the heroine´s backstory so that she came across as a shallow, husband hungry, predatory woman to start with and then a pathetic, weak, sappy, stereotypical Romance heroine. It was inconsistent
and horribly, horribly, shallow and condescending. Stuff that I´d expect to read in a Harlequin book with Fabio on the cover, but not listen to here. Thanks to the author for sticking up for the gender alongside all those Britney clones out there.
The second thing which got up my nose was the US-centricness of it. Yeah, ok, the author is USian but come on already! The US constitution is the important one? Not the several thousand years of work on constitutions before that? Simply Wikipedia it and you´ll find a reference to Aristotle´s work defining constitutional law, the Roman, Japanese and Islamic constitutions -what about the Magna Carta?- that predate the US constitution by, oh, just a little. The suggestion in the story that the alien had travelled ALL over the US before setting foot in London? The idea that Hollywood is all that´s on offer? Eytanz is right that there´s little point in nitpicking the logical underpinnings of the story, but to me this just made the author sound ignorant and arrogant.
So this is where I´ve ended the story and I have no desire to listen any further. I did enjoy Blink, Don´t Blink, so I´m massively disappointed that the author wrote such a shallow story with this kind of female lead. And, like I said, I´m waaaay sensitive on this subject today.
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Huh.
"Sex and the City" meets "Childhood's End" (well, the first half of "Childhood's End", at least), and, perhaps, also meeting "Bluebeard", depending on what you think is going to happen next.
Instead of debating whether or not this story is SF, I'm going to debate whether or not this story is a relationship story - there is no actual *relationship* here, between the narrator and her alien husband - there's basically a prolonged blind date. It may or may not be the prelude to a relationship (depending on what the wives die from), but it's basically a tale of women acting really, really stupid over a handsome stranger, writ large. I'm harboring a suspicion that it's meant to be ironic, but I'm not entirely sure.
Well, I would argue there is at least the start of the relationship, and would that not, in and of itself, qualify as a relationship story? I think the start of relationships is quite an important part. :) I, for one, am left curious as to how the relationship between these two would develop and evolve as time passed... and that suggests to me it is indeed a relationship story. Or maybe its a promise of a relationship story, more than one in and of itself. The concept of stories suggesting future stories is kind of interesting to me.
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Or maybe its a promise of a relationship story, more than one in and of itself.
That's what I meant - there may well be a relationship in store for these characters, but the story ended just as it began.
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Or maybe its a promise of a relationship story, more than one in and of itself. The concept of stories suggesting future stories is kind of interesting to me.
I was drawn into this story at the beginning by presentation of the alien, first through his voice as he traveled to earth and his decision to show pictures of the solar system rather than himself [a nice bit of foreshadowing as the author states how seductive his voice was to the women of earth, and he redirects their attention to the solar system itself]. then I was even more intrigued by the description of the alien himself ['more human than human' -- not original, I know, but powerfully evocative].
But in the end I thought the author did a much better job at raising interest and suggesting possibilities than delivering the goods. To me it was like being a kid again and opening that large gift under the christmas tree, only to find it is a box full of underwear.* Not even Buck Rogers' underwear, just plain old whitey-tidys. And perhaps hidden somewhere in all of this an I.O.U. for a trip to the toy store.
Oh, and I found the spaceships to be the same way. The suggestion of coolness left largely unfulfilled.
I really enjoyed Blink, Don't Blink. In my book, R. Wheeler is 1 for 2 so far.
*Or better, to reflect some of the reaction to the stereotyping in this story, rather than underwear, some B.R.A.T.Z. dolls.
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This story started out well, explaining why the aliens couldn't get here due to gravity cracks. I do love the discussion of interstellar travel. The relationship side of this story kinda dragged me down. I am not one who opposes relationships in stories, I just want more science fiction than relationships in my science fiction. If that sounded confusing, I am sorry, there is no other way that I can think to put it.
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Wasn't there a story awhile back on Escape Pod about time travelers going back in time to recruit "our women" for snuff films? I got a moment of deju vu listening to this one, although the aliens treated "our women" much better in the end than the human time travelers did....
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I was almost going to leap up and yell "Rawr! Girl Power!"...but after reading some of the comments here, I've had pause for thought.
Has our society been so tweaked in the last 40-odd years, that we're afraid to breathe around women-power issues? According to readers, here women are either "husband hungry bitches" or "jealous bitches".
But what motivates men, and male success? Yup, the same things. Human Beings may be sentient, powerful beings but we still operate on the one thing that drives ALL species - to procreate.
We're here to better ourselves, but ultimately it's bettering the life of FUTURE generations.
What if the gender roles were reversed in this story? Who would still be in the wrong? Yup, the "seeking to dominate male society" woman.
Either way, we (females as a whole) can't win. It hurts the brain.
In closing, I really liked the story. If I really wanted to catagorize it - "nice piece of feminist writing". Thar, I said it ;)
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I was almost going to leap up and yell "Rawr! Girl Power!"...but after reading some of the comments here, I've had pause for thought.
Has our society been so tweaked in the last 40-odd years, that we're afraid to breathe around women-power issues? According to readers, here women are either "husband hungry bitches" or "jealous bitches".
I am perfectly happy to discuss women-power issues. And neither I, nor anyone else in this thread, classified women that way.
What if the gender roles were reversed in this story? Who would still be in the wrong? Yup, the "seeking to dominate male society" woman.
Either way, we (females as a whole) can't win. It hurts the brain.
So, you (Biscuit, not women as a whole) pre-determine the response the other posters here will have, and based on your imagined response you decide you can't win.
You may find that women may have an easier chance of "winning" if you actually take the time to see what people here will say, rather than just put words in our mouths.
But what motivates men, and male success? Yup, the same things. Human Beings may be sentient, powerful beings but we still operate on the one thing that drives ALL species - to procreate.
We're here to better ourselves, but ultimately it's bettering the life of FUTURE generations.
Men are motivated by the desire to find suitable mates, just as much as women are. That much is certainly true. But there is a lot more than just that. There is greed, and the desire power. The desire for fame. The desire for knowledge. The desire to do what no-one has done before, the desire to solve a problem that others cannot. No-one questions it when a man makes a scientific discovery based on any of these.
The way I read it, this story is not empowering to women because according to it, women cannot be motivated to do science unless someone dangles a beautiful man in front of them like a carrot. Women may be capable of more then men, but they need to be manipulated into it, or they will never achieve it. At least that's what the alien seems to believe, and the narrator seems to agree.
Well, I know women in sciences - in the real world. They are fully capable scientists, as good as, if not better, than the men they work with, and their successes in their fields have nothing to do with whether they are married or dating. These women are perfectly capable of doing anything a man can do, without needing to be manipulated into it by anyone. The story does not seem to allow for that.
In closing, I really liked the story. If I really wanted to catagorize it - "nice piece of feminist writing". Thar, I said it ;)
Ok, so you said it. I'd like to hear why you think it is feminist - is it just because it suggests that women are capable of solving serious scientific problems? Is that on its own empowering? Or is there something else that I'm missing?
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Hey Eytanz :)
I'd call it feminist, because it's empowering women in many ways.
- The alien said it himself - the female protaganist approached him (which can seem very forward in some societies).
- Even though the motivation for future enhancement may be jealously, surely if an intelligent woman recognizes this, she is transcending the original emotion in the betterment of herself/humanity.
- The female was aggressively honest about what she wanted. It's built into our genes that we look for the best looking/most intelligent partner to further the success of the species. When a guy does it, it's called "getting your rocks off" or "a mid life crisis". When a woman does it, it's called "being a dominating bitch" or "chick lit" ;)
Steve put it fairly succinctly in his intro - relationships in literature are broad strokes for the sake of dynamics and drama.
Sorry if I was putting words in where there weren't any :). Ok, I'm touchy about feminist (or seemingly feminist) issues. I'm not arguing that any of us don't see equality - we're all pretty intelligent peeps.
What it comes down to is a great quote I saw in the context of Hillary Clinton's presidential candidacy (no politics here). To paraphrase "The equality debate should not be about whether she'd make a good president because she's a woman...it's about whether she'd make a good president because of her politics, and what she's like as a human being."
Cheers :)
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I'd call it feminist, because it's empowering women in many ways.
This fascinates me. It just goes to show that I have a lot to learn about feminism. The basic feeling that I got from the story was that it was degrading to women, not to extreme, but implied. I expected the comments in this thread to be filled with women posters with that viewpoint; and there were some. However I found many male posters as well, expressing that same opinion as I had (at least those that I know are male or female from the context of these posts or my knowledge of frequent forum posters).
And now Biscuit has come along as stated that this is a very pro women feminist peice. Again, I am fascinated and look forward to more input from other women readers/listeners. Anarkey? Palimpsest? Are you out there?
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A SciFi Poem
Title: Alien, Space Ship, New Food, Hyperdrive
ALIEN!
A Nicole Smith marries an old rich man to
SPACE SHIP!
Take her away from her small town life
NEW Food!
All women that see her will want to
HYPERDRIVE!
enhance themselves to find an old rich man too
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I think the story was a little too easy... just because she pursued him, she gets him. It did actually read like a romance story stuck into sci-fi, and not necessarily adeptly.
I think the idea of Earth providing a new frontier in entertainment is a good one that could've been better-explored in another story, one that wasn't about a worldwide version of The Bachelor.
The reading was good.
As for Steve's comments about how it's hard to find positive/good relationships in fiction... have you tried erotica? Often short erotica is more about the action rather than developing the characters' relationships via conflict with each other. At least, in my experience. (And my comment is certainly not all-encompassing of all erotica.)
The second thing which got up my nose was the US-centricness of it. Yeah, ok, the author is USian but come on already! The US constitution is the important one? Not the several thousand years of work on constitutions before that? Simply Wikipedia it and you´ll find a reference to Aristotle´s work defining constitutional law, the Roman, Japanese and Islamic constitutions -what about the Magna Carta?- that predate the US constitution by, oh, just a little. The suggestion in the story that the alien had travelled ALL over the US before setting foot in London? The idea that Hollywood is all that´s on offer? Eytanz is right that there´s little point in nitpicking the logical underpinnings of the story, but to me this just made the author sound ignorant and arrogant.
I think it occurs in the future -- perhaps the world has unified for whatever reason -- rather than in the now. Apparently humanity knows there are other cultures out there, and how to get through interstellar space from a theoretical POV (the cracks), but no one's come to visit us yet. IE, maybe there've been probes or something. It wasn't explicit that this was happening in the future, but to me it sort of had a slight-future-y feel to it.
In "The Day The Earth Stood Still", the alien landed in the U.S. I don't recall a reason ever being given, just that that's where he happened to land. Maybe that's where Les happened to land -- if he'd landed just outside Moscow, maybe the main character would've been named Katya or something, and she would've gone to Tel Aviv to find him, rather than London.
I realize at this point I'm just Devil's-Advocate-ing, but hey, someone's got to do it, right?
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Bypassing the whole women's rights bit...
Was I the only one who half expected that to these aliens, wife meant dinner?
Just a thought on the main discussion...
Does anyone ever claim that something is degrading to men? Or are men just expected to take it because it is supposedly a male dominated culture? As I said, just a thought
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Bypassing the whole women's rights bit...
Was I the only one who half expected that to these aliens, wife meant dinner?
Just a thought on the main discussion...
Does anyone ever claim that something is degrading to men? Or are men just expected to take it because it is supposedly a male dominated culture? As I said, just a thought
Well, this story is degrading to men also, in an offhand way.
If we assert that female jealousy is the only aspect of the human psyche powerful enough to motive interplanetary exploration, then that implies that no aspect of male psyche could motivate it. Men are worthless: their only use is as carrots to dangle is front of women. Even the alien is useless. He doesn't know how his own star-ship works, and he's too feeble-minded to assert himself at all in his spouse selection: He just waits around while the women queue up, then marries the first one that asks him. His only virtue is that he's hot.
So, I'd say both genders are insulted here, but the insult to women is explicit while the insult to men is implied.
Which gets back around to insulting women again: If men are worthless, then women are fools to compete for their attention.
It all gets very ironic and cynical, which is consistent, if this is a feminist piece, as Biscuit says. I've always found feminism (as I understand it) to be very cynical and ultimately demeaning to both genders.
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It all gets very ironic and cynical, which is consistent, if this is a feminist piece, as Biscuit says. I've always found feminism (as I understand it) to be very cynical and ultimately demeaning to both genders.
I don't want to stomp the discussion flat -- it's been quite good and interesting -- but I'm feeling a need (which started before the quote above) to put a yellow flag down and remind everybody to be respectful of the opinions of others. Discussing whether this piece is feminist or anti-feminist makes perfect sense, but if this thread becomes a flamewar about feminism I'm going to be a very Sad Steve.
If you really want to be safe here, speak freely on what you think of the story, but try to stop short of characterizing or judging what others think. That goes for everyone. Thanks.
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My take on the story was much more whimsical. I thought overall the story was moderately positive for women, but mostly it was a self-deprecating joke on a cliché of female behavior.
To wit, the most powerful motivating force in the universe turns out to be the desire for women to prove that successful women are not really so great. Ha.. ha...
The point was not that they wanted the guy, they wanted to prove that she was nothing special.
I think the flash piece from last year called "Fools Seldom Differ" is a similar kind of joke on a cliché of male behavior.
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It all gets very ironic and cynical, which is consistent, if this is a feminist piece, as Biscuit says. I've always found feminism (as I understand it) to be very cynical and ultimately demeaning to both genders.
Not flaming at all :) Good discussion Steve-o.
Maybe we could look at it another way - perhaps it's demeaning the entire human RACE. Heck, we all get frustrated with the silliness of humanity sometimes. In this story, the beneficent, god-like uber-alien kindly and gently shows humanity the road towards the stars coz we're like, yuck yuck, so stoopid to be able to find it ourselves.
Or I could be stretching it WAYYYY too far!
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This was a good, entertaining story. I found the reader's voice very seductive (and a nice break from the whiny-sounding women most of the male readers seem to portray), so I got absorbed quickly.
I was mildly, though pleasantly, surprised by how straightforwardly it presented a woman who got what she wanted, without whining or getting a man to do it for her. The protagonist really wants to explore the beyond - it almost seems like she's less interested in Les (beguiling as he is) and more interested in the fact that he can show her the Universe out there. She got what she wanted, though perhaps the job of ambassador might be a bigger side-effect than she was asking for. The twist at the end was fun - that envy/jealousy could get people to collaborate and accomplish great things.
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Loved the space travel aspects of the story and the relationship / man pursuit aspects of the story reminded me of Sex in The City, which is a good thing IMHO.
Like ancawonka said, the narration was nice. I guess I didn't take the story that seriously. Good stuff.
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My intelligent and insightful wife has listened to this story and told me her opinion. In sum, she thinks I am taking it way too seriously. She sees this as satire, criticizing the flaws of women by exaggerating them out of all proportion, tongue firmly in cheek all the while. She tells me that female jealousy is more powerful than I am giving it credit for, and that the story is not insulting women, but rather exposing a real vice through hyperbole. She did not feel insulted. She liked it and thought it was funny.
And I see her point. (That's why I married a brilliant woman: I wanted a wife who would make good points.)
Although this doesn't convince me to like the story, it does convince me that I've been too harsh in my criticism on this thread. Consequently, I strike the word "misogynistic" from my initial post. Here: misogynistic. And l change my "thumbs down" to "meh."
Meh.
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The opening warning of “tongue and cheek” describes the story well enough. It can't be taken seriously. There is more satire than misogyny. As an aside: If Hollywood is the big thing Earth the has to give to the stars, then space must be traveled by beings with the mentally of tweens and teens, or we can hope the author was sarcastic here too.
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I found the story to be kind of like a "popcorn" movie: all fluff and no substance. It was fun, but a bit empty, especially once the punchline at the end was delivered. I was left feeling like I'd bee told a lame joke that I'd laughed at anyway.
An aside: I tend to categorize stories into three broad categories: character stories, plot stories and theme stories. This didn't really fit into any of them, which I think is why I felt a bit lost after listening to it. The characters are sterotypes of a sort, and we never really get to know either one. There's no plot to speak of, and the theme/punchline doesn't ring true: human progress into interstellar space will be driven by jealous women...
Meh. "Blink, Don't Blink" was a much better story, I thought.
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This tale was well-written, but I took major issue with some of its premises. I'm sorry, but I don't see how a visitor from another world winds up coming to Earth for an interstellar booty call and manages to avoid the wrath of any number of hate groups. You would think the pope-mobile this alien would need in public would have to be meters thick. I can just see the protesters lined up right now-- we can't even handle homosexual unions on this planet. I don't even want to know what an inter-species union would engender. Furthermore, I know the guy is supposed to look perfectly human, but based on his past marriages, we've no way of knowing what's under that visage.
I wanted to really like this one, and it did hold my interest, but the misogynist themes and sense of sugar-coated galactic relations really cost it some adoration. The author seems to suggest that aliens initiate first contact once an admittedly-awesome document like the Bill of Rights appears on the radar, and although I found that premise really well-thought, this isn't first contact. The alien flies off having essentially pulled one over on humanity. Yes, we might indeed chase a group of such snake oil salesmen to the stars, but when we finally get out of our solar system we'll no longer be interested in punch and pie. Think guarded relations and suspicions as the order of the day.
There's another story here, perhaps one that paints this character as an interstellar con man running from alien cultures he's already infuriated. Drop the protagonist into the mix as the woman that sways him from his ways, and I think you'd have a more enjoyable yarn.
As a disclaimer, while I found the elements of the plot somewhat shaky, I still enjoyed this piece.
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Second disclaimer: I have a hard time not over-analyzing inherently whimsical, light-hearted stories, so your mileage may vary :)
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A history:
Women: This story is misogynistic.
Men: You're crazy. It's just a bit of fun.
Women: This one is, too.
Men: Whatever. Get me a beer.
Women: Not too fond of this story, either.
Men: Hey, the chicks seem peeved about something.
Women: Ugh. Have you read this one? Terrible towards women.
Men: OK. I think I get it...
Men: This story is misogynistic.
Women: You're crazy. It's just a bit of fun.
Men: ??? [gets own beer]
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OK, I´m not as pre-riled up today as I was last week.
I still consider it sexist. If we hadn´t known the author was female, I´m pretty sure every other woman here would as well.
I disagree with Biscuit about it being feminist, although I do see her points. For me, an appropriate female role model in feminist stories is someone who garners respect as well as getting what she wants. I don´t respect Paris Hilton for acting like an airhead, although she certainly gets what she wants. There´s more to being feminist than just pulling the bad traits of masculinity and trying to repeat them - guys that do little else than chase big tits are also low on my list of reasonable role models. That said, I would be surprised if the author was out to make a feminist statement. I think it was probably more like Mr Tweedy´s wife said. Whichever, it still rubs me the wrong way.
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There´s more to being feminist than just pulling the bad traits of masculinity and trying to repeat them - guys that do little else than chase big tits are also low on my list of reasonable role models.
Would you be willing/able to give me a short synopsis of what feminism is? What I think it is and what you think it is don't seem to mesh. I would appreciate a few "inside" pointers.
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I would be intrested to know who your rolemodles are and why.
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OK, I´m not as pre-riled up today as I was last week.
I still consider it sexist. If we hadn´t known the author was female, I´m pretty sure every other woman here would as well.
In a way I am
more "riled up" today
than I was last week.
It appears
from some of the comments
sexist stories are OK
if you are warned it is sexist
or funny in some way.
That the author is
female
has no bearing on the whether a story is sexist or not.
A woman can be a sexist
or anti-feminist or hold
any beliefs she wants.
That is one aspect of feminism.
See the person for who they are first
not what sex they are first.
To paraphase Martin Luther King, Jr.
- I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by their sex, but by the content of their character.
Adding
an alien,
a spaceship,
different food
and hyperdrive
to the story does not change the sexist content of the story.
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I fully agree that all people "should" be treated equal. i unfortunately have always put people in 3 categories (objective, target, obstacle) i was just wondering who you believed were good role models.
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I think the story is sexist against men because it claims men aren't smart enough to invent space travel. I smart as woman! Crap... ???
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i was just wondering who you believed were good role models.
Interesting... I was just mentally flicking through books I´ve read recently and the only one I can come up with is Thursday Next from Jasper Fforde´s Literary Detectives series. So either I´m avoiding books with (what I´d call) feminist role models, or there aren´t too many around (or to my taste maybe).
It appears
from some of the comments
sexist stories are OK
if you are warned it is sexist
or funny in some way.
That the author is
female
has no bearing on the whether a story is sexist or not.
Which was exactly my point, and that of several of the commenters here. The overwhelming response on the first page was that this was derogatory to woman. Then a woman came in and said no it was empowering. To which the guys responded with confusion and rightly so. I don´t wish to put words into Biscuits mouth, so perhaps she could correct me on this, but it does appear that she was treating/analyzing writing by men and women differently.
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This discussion has taken up a lot of my shower time thinking.
It's been said somewhere on the EP forums that whenever you have a black person in a story people assume he represents all black people, a gay person represents all gays, a women, all women. But a white man is just a character in the story and doesn't represent anyone. Is our problem with this story that we are holding up the woman character as a symbol of woman-hood and Biscuit and Mrs. Tweedy aren't?
On the other hand the ending WAS a literal blanket characterization of all women...
I don't know. Women are rational individuals who are more than a function of their boyfriends, but I believe this in spite of women's entertainment, not because of it.
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Maybe we are all talking at cross purposes with definitions of women´s rights and feminism? Because one doesn´t necessarily mean the other.
I´ve never studied feminism or women´s issues or whatever it´s called at your university, so I´d appreciate input from someone who has. What I have done is worked for 16 years in two heavily male dominated fields and my opinion of women´s rights is created from that. There are areas about feminism where I´m unsure, areas where my definition wavers and my opinion changes. So I have no textbook definition except this: women deserve the same rights and treatment as men. I doubt anyone on this thread would disagree with that.
There are a couple of brands of feminism which I do have problems with (and which probably caused Mr Tweedy´s confusion at one of my previous posts) and is the reason I don´t really agree with the "empowerment" view of Biscuit. A woman getting ahead just because she´s a woman is equally as sexist as a man getting ahead just because he´s a man. A woman using sex to get ahead is just as bad as a man using it. You (theoretical man and theoretical woman) can both do it if you want, but don´t expect me to trumpet your "achievements" as great examples, nor respect either of you for acting that way.
My last grad student acted as the pretty dumb bombshell, batting her eyelids and playing up to the guys to get what she wanted. It worked, she got it. I don´t respect her for that, nor think that that was feminism or empowerment. That was manipulation and reinforcing stereotypes I´ve spent my life trying to work against. It made my job that much harder and my chance of being treated equally that much less likely. When I was a grad student, another in my lab was sleeping with the boss and so got extra technicians, aid, money, chances I never got. That grad student was male, the boss female. It was no different than the first example and got no more respect from myself or the others in the lab.
So, for me (and my personal brand of feminism), this story is not feminist.
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Umm. Hmm.
I guess my thoughts have been covered in bits and pieces here and there by other people, but I want to try and bring it all together in one post. Being a white male, I tread lightly here.
I don't see the story as being sexist. I don't think it's sexist to describe what might really happen in a given circumstance. I also think the perspective is skewed by an unreliable narrator.
If an ultra sexy alien landed and (after security issues were handled) said they were going to take a spouse, you would have millions of people running forward and throwing themselves at them. Male or female doesn't matter. I believe the author only chose a male alien, because nobody would be interested in hearing about men throwing themselves at a large-breasted playmate type. You can watch that anytime a bombshell walks into a bar alone.
There's also the "15 minute of fame" factor. We've seen what stupid things people will do to get on a bad reality TV show. What would they do to be in the event that has captured the attention of the whole world?
Then there's the geek factor. What would you do to be the first human to travel intergalatically? Hell, for that one I'd do an ugly skank. Just stare at the ceiling and think of other worlds.
On top of all of this we have the story being told by the women who was chosen. The victor always makes the battle seem harder and the triumph greater. The great throngs might have been only tens trying to be the wife and the others wanted to just see an alien in the flesh.
The real sexism is in the comment made by the alien. So he's sexist. Maybe it did work that way on another planet. Maybe he's just full of himself. Maybe other planets said, "interstellar travel is possible without warp drive or cryogenic freezers? We're in." And since his plot of taking a wife there seemed to work, he thought it was because he's pretty and it had to be jealous women that did it.
Anyway, I had a bit of a fun time with it, eventhough I was shaking my head at times. When his big line came at the end, I thought, "he's an ass". I didn't think the author was trying to disparage women. It was fun, but not a keeper.
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Mrs. Tweedy
LOL! Her name's Jeanna.
Wherethewild, (I think) I agree with you 100% about everything you just said. What you just said also had nothing to do with what I understand feminism to be. We both believe that all people should be treated as full equals regardless of the genes they were born with. We both believe that using sex as a tool to advance one's agenda is crass, degrading and not worthy of respect. We don't need any -isms to agree on these things. I think -isms just muddy the water.
And I think I agree with Russel and Wakela too. Consensus! That's a pleasant surprise. :)
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Mrs. Tweedy
LOL! Her name's Jeanna.
Jeanna Tweedy. That's a nice name.
Wherethewild, (I think) I agree with you 100% about everything you just said.
And I think I agree with Russel and Wakela too. Consensus! That's a pleasant surprise. :)
OK, our work here is done. We can move on to the next story.
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Just a thought on the main discussion...
Does anyone ever claim that something is degrading to men? Or are men just expected to take it because it is supposedly a male dominated culture? As I said, just a thought
Yes, and Yes. I have learned this the hard way.
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Just a thought on the main discussion...
Does anyone ever claim that something is degrading to men? Or are men just expected to take it because it is supposedly a male dominated culture? As I said, just a thought
Yes, and Yes. I have learned this the hard way.
We are all degraded
when a
woman,
man,
girl
or
boy
is degraded.
Being degraded
makes it difficult
for the person to reach
his or her full potential.
Then those around
that person
are denied seeing their full
potential.
-
Then those around
that person
are denied seeing their full
potential.
How are those around someone that is degraded effected (or is it affected...I can never remember) by them not reaching their full potential?
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Then those around
that person
are denied seeing their full
potential.
How are those around someone that is degraded effected (or is it affected...I can never remember) by them not reaching their full potential?
Not too long ago
when segregation - official and unofficial - was in effect
black children were not given the
opportunities in education and life careers.
How many great minds
didn't we have the opportunity benefit from?
Not too long ago
the opportunities for women were limited
to subservient roles.
We will never know what we missed.
And so it is today.
With stories like this.
That stereotypes are perpetuated.
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Then those around
that person
are denied seeing their full
potential.
How are those around someone that is degraded effected (or is it affected...I can never remember) by them not reaching their full potential?
Pink Shift on the money.
All members of a society benefit when each member achieves. If any one member is arbitrarily held back from accomplishing all that they might have, then everyone in their society is denied the good things that that person might have produced and shared.
For instance, in the Olden Days, blacks were expected to be illiterate. This was bad for blacks (obviously) but it was also bad for their white oppressors, who because of their bigotry were denied all the art, science and literature that literate blacks might have produced. I often wonder how much misogynistic societies are shooting themselves in the foot by denying women their rights. Fully half of the brains and hearts in such a society are held down and inhibited, and the so the whole society must be impoverished.
-
Then those around
that person
are denied seeing their full
potential.
How are those around someone that is degraded effected (or is it affected...I can never remember) by them not reaching their full potential?
Not too long ago
when segregation - official and unofficial - was in effect
black children were not given the
opportunities in education and life careers.
How many great minds
didn't we have the opportunity benefit from?
Not too long ago
the opportunities for women were limited
to subservient roles.
We will never know what we missed.
And so it is today.
With stories like this.
That stereotypes are perpetuated.
Dang, this doesn't happen too often, but I see your point. Well put.
-
Then those around
that person
are denied seeing their full
potential.
How are those around someone that is degraded effected (or is it affected...I can never remember) by them not reaching their full potential?
Not too long ago
when segregation - official and unofficial - was in effect
black children were not given the
opportunities in education and life careers.
How many great minds
didn't we have the opportunity benefit from?
Not too long ago
the opportunities for women were limited
to subservient roles.
We will never know what we missed.
And so it is today.
With stories like this.
That stereotypes are perpetuated.
Dang, this doesn't happen too often, but I see your point. Well put.
It happens all of the time. If we change it to economic terms, it happens on a massive scale.
Poor areas can't afford good local public services especially schools (mostly local money). These people don't get as good of an education. Therefore don't get the same chance at higher education. Therefore don't get the same chance at good jobs. People without the chance to move ahead are more likely to commit crimes, do drugs, have unstable home evironments. The unstable home environments makes it even harder on the next generation.
Sexism and Racism are problems, but it's practically a crime to be poor in America.
-
Then those around
that person
are denied seeing their full
potential.
How are those around someone that is degraded effected (or is it affected...I can never remember) by them not reaching their full potential?
Not too long ago
when segregation - official and unofficial - was in effect
black children were not given the
opportunities in education and life careers.
How many great minds
didn't we have the opportunity benefit from?
Not too long ago
the opportunities for women were limited
to subservient roles.
We will never know what we missed.
And so it is today.
With stories like this.
That stereotypes are perpetuated.
Dang, this doesn't happen too often, but I see your point. Well put.
It happens all of the time. If we change it to economic terms, it happens on a massive scale.
Poor areas can't afford good local public services especially schools (mostly local money). These people don't get as good of an education. Therefore don't get the same chance at higher education. Therefore don't get the same chance at good jobs. People without the chance to move ahead are more likely to commit crimes, do drugs, have unstable home evironments. The unstable home environments makes it even harder on the next generation.
Sexism and Racism are problems, but it's practically a crime to be poor in America.
Good points.
We should remember the lessons of history;
150 years ago we had slavery;
1930s Stalin killed million of Ukrainians;
1940s 12 million killed in concentration camps;
1950 Korean War;
1960 China's Cultural Revolution killed millions;
1970/80s Kamier Rouge killed 3 million;
1990 Hotoues and Toutties genocide;
2000s Darfore & millions of poor in China and India harmed by industrial pollution.
The basic nature
of mankind
has not changed
over the past 150 years.
Civilization is a thin veil.
-
Poor areas can't afford good local public services especially schools (mostly local money). These people don't get as good of an education. Therefore don't get the same chance at higher education. Therefore don't get the same chance at good jobs. People without the chance to move ahead are more likely to commit crimes, do drugs, have unstable home evironments. The unstable home environments makes it even harder on the next generation.
Sexism and Racism are problems, but it's practically a crime to be poor in America.
I feel a need to go on record and say I think that's bogus. America is the place where a person can go from nothing and make a billion dollars through sheer diligence. Examples abound.
Poverty is the blanket excuse that is used to justify bad choices. "I was born poor, therefore my lifelong string of stupid and immoral choices is not my fault." Bull. My parents were poor: I spent part of my childhood living in a one-room camper. And mine was the best, most stable family I know to have ever existed.
Anybody can become educated in America, and whether or not a person does become educated has far, far more to do with the value they place on education than with what school district they live in. If I knew only what I learned from my 16 years of formal schooling, I would be dumb as a rock. My children are not going to go to any formal school at all: We can teach them better at home. Politicians like to talk as though all problems could be solved with a given number of dollars. Not so. In education, the importance of funding is nothing compared to the importance of the desire to educate and the desire to learn. A poor kid who wants to learn can, but nothing will force knowledge into the head of a rich kid who doesn't care.
Sexism and racism are forms of discrimination: A personal quality over which the individual has no control is used to arbitrarily restrict their opportunities. Poverty is not a personal quality. In a free society it can be overcome by individuals who are honestly interested in doing do. Many aren't. Many are unwilling to stop their poverty-causing lifestyles. Such people are not being discriminated against, they are simply reaping what they sow.
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This story would have been typical of the "old" science fiction. You could imagine it written in the golden age of science fiction.
We have clues in the story that could be interpreted in this direction. The fancy spaceship, the UScentrism, the careless devaluation of women all seems like anachronisms from the old days of science fiction.
Now today we expect other things in our stories. So what do we make of this?
If you choose to see this story as a hattip to golden age scifi, then it is quite a nice fun little diddy (and I mean this in the most respectful way - having fun is the alpha an omega of existence).
Still I find myself in two minds. To appreciate the story as a modern instantiation of golden age scifi I have to take a birdseye perspective on the story, and call upon our shared knowledge of history of science fiction and it seems like a reach. On the other hand without the metaanalysis the story just seems to flawed. 3 billion women driven mad? What about their spouse, SO's, lifepartners if they are gay, their children etc. And the punch line "Hell hath no fury like the wrath of a woman scorned", was a bit weak for all that build up.
So in balance I didn't hat the story, I even liked it, but it left me filling unfulfilled, and not in a good way.
As an aside, for a long time I was sure that to pass through hyperspace the alien had to use his wife as a human sacrifice, this would have made better use of the all women want a dark and handsome stranger stereotype.
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Mr Tweedy
Your assumption that in America all it takes is hard work to be a billionaire is, I think, not correct. It is an illusion that is very common in your country, but as far as I know studies show that the US lags behind many other countries when it comes to social mobility. If you are born poor in the US your chances of moving to a higher social class is much lower than in many other developed countries.
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This story would have been typical of the "old" science fiction. You could imagine it written in the golden age of science fiction.
My guess
for this to be the case
is that the alien would have been a
woman
and
the protagonist a man.
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I feel a need to go on record and say I think that's bogus. America is the place where a person can go from nothing and make a billion dollars through sheer diligence. Examples abound.
Name one, who did it without starting with family money or a first rate education. Before you say Bill Gates remember that he was at an expensive first rate school when he dropped out to found MS.
Edit: Actually Bill Gates doesn't work, because he was at least middle-uppermiddle class.
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Off the top of my head and without doing any research:
Thomas Edison
Steve Jobs
Rush Limbaugh
And Bill Gates proves my point to T: He dropped out to make billions of dollars. I would think that's conclusive proof that formal education is not necessary for success.
I'm not now, obviously, but I hope to one day make a living writing and doing films. If I do succeed, it will have been entirely through my own efforts, not because I went to a school that taught me how to be a writer. (In fact, I'd say my 16 years of schooling was mostly wasted time.)
I expect Steve is going to grow Escape Artists in to a decent business. Did the state offer him a podcasting school? No: He decided what he wanted to accomplish and started working.
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Dang, this doesn't happen too often, but I see your point. Well put.
I meant I don't change my mind often, but all good points above...
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Off the top of my head and without doing any research:
Thomas Edison
Steve Jobs
Rush Limbaugh
And Bill Gates proves my point to T: He dropped out to make billions of dollars. I would think that's conclusive proof that formal education is not necessary for success.
I'm not now, obviously, but I hope to one day make a living writing and doing films. If I do succeed, it will have been entirely through my own efforts, not because I went to a school that taught me how to be a writer. (In fact, I'd say my 16 years of schooling was mostly wasted time.)
I expect Steve is going to grow Escape Artists in to a decent business. Did the state offer him a podcasting school? No: He decided what he wanted to accomplish and started working.
It's pretty pitiful that you had to go back to someone who died before the 20th century even started. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that America was a little different in Edison's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_edison) time. Also Edison's dad had a decent job with the railroads. In that time if you were poor and couldn't shoot your own food, you died.
Jobs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_jobs) was adopted into a middle class family. The poor don't get to adopt kids they aren't related to already.
Limbaugh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rush_limbaugh)'s father was a lawyer. And Limbaugh isn't a billionaire
Middle class isn't poor.
Poor is not knowing if you're going to eat every day. Poor means not being able to afford to go stay in a motel for a few nights, because the drug dealer next door started threatening you. Ask Steve if he's poor. Or if he would be living his current lifestyle without having gone to college.
You want to know what being poor is? Go to a crap used car lot and borrow a mid 80's beater, one with dented fenders and primer paint. Then go to the nicest neighborhood in your area, someplace where the houses start at over 750k. Then drive down the street like you're thinking of buying something in the area and just wanted to see what these houses look like. Stop for a minute in front of some and really look. The cops will be there to tell you to get out within 10 minutes of when the first person sees you. Mention to the cop that you have every right to be there and he'll tell you it doesn't matter, MOVE IT!!
I never said people couldn't move up and down the ladder. I didn't even say a poor person couldn't move up and down the ladder. I said they don't get the same chance. It's a lot harder for them.
Your story is very interesting, but that is what is called anecdotal evidence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence). And it does not support the statistics. When someone starts with anecdotal evidence, you know their arguement isn't worth crap. How many times have you heard, "My (insert relative here) smoked all his life and he lived to be 90"?
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I feel a need to go on record and say I think that's bogus. America is the place where a person can go from nothing and make a billion dollars through sheer diligence. Examples abound.
For the most part I agree with Mr Tweedy. How far you want to go in America is only limited by how hard you want to work and how much you're willing to sacrifice.
I do need to add that the facts are that some people have to work harder than others. Women and minorities are not treated equally. Wage disparity for the same jobs shows this. I have the advantage that I am fair-skinned and have a penis. However, there are plenty of minorities and women who have overcome these prejudices and have succeeded. They just have to work harder, and this is not fair.
I also want to make the point that it is not the government's job to try to remove this disparity. They would fail at it (like they fail at almost everything). It needs to come from the ground up, and I think discussions like this are making that happen. My parents and most people in my community were what most would consider racist. I realize how stupid and untrue most prejudices are. The amount of racism has decreased by leaps and bounds in the few generations since the abolishment of slavery and the two generations since the removal of segregation. I think in another few generations racism and sexism will be a thing of the past.
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You want to know what being poor is? Go to a crap used car lot and borrow a mid 80's beater, one with dented fenders and primer paint. Then go to the nicest neighborhood in your area, someplace where the houses start at over 750k. Then drive down the street like you're thinking of buying something in the area and just wanted to see what these houses look like. Stop for a minute in front of some and really look. The cops will be there to tell you to get out within 10 minutes of when the first person sees you. Mention to the cop that you have every right to be there and he'll tell you it doesn't matter, MOVE IT!!
You presume to know a lot about my situation. For instance, you assume I would have to borrow such a car, when the one I drove to work today would suffice.
Your story is very interesting, but that is what is called anecdotal evidence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence). And it does not support the statistics. When someone starts with anecdotal evidence, you know their arguement isn't worth crap.
I would be careful using such strong language when you yourself have offered nothing but anecdotes. Also note that you specifically asked for an anecdote and I was responding to your request.
And I am not claiming that all economic demographics have equal mobility. I am saying they all have sufficient (not necessarily equal) opportunity to succeed in life. To what degree various people use their opportunity and for what is not something that can be easily charted on a graph.
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May I ask that this discussion be taken to a different thread? It seems to have little to do with the story and I'd rather it be somewhere where I can more easily ignore it.
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May I ask that this discussion be taken to a different thread? It seems to have little to do with the story and I'd rather it be somewhere where I can more easily ignore it.
You're right. I went overboard and should have moved my comments somewhere else if I wanted to get so far into it.
I'll finish in 50 words or less and if anyone wants to chew my ass out about it, I'll move it all to a new thread.
My point (very dull the way it way presented) was that so many people already have the deck stacked against them before they are even born. I believe being working class or better is a far easier beginning than being seriously poor. I think that holds across all race and genders groups.
oops 52 words. sorry
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I think we need a "Pick a fight with Russell Nash" thread ;D (Although, I wouldn't be fighting you on this one, either.)
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I think we need a "Pick a fight with Russell Nash" thread ;D (Although, I wouldn't be fighting you on this one, either.)
That's fine. Just no comments about the nose.
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I'm ambivalent about this story. On one hand, the title alone was a cue that it was satirical and not to be taken too seriously. Leann's reading was excellent and the story had good imagery.
On the other hand, I can't decide whether it's more insulting to women or to men. To women, because it assumes that they need to be manipulated with sex or jealousy in order to reach their greatest heights of achievement; to men, because it assumes that we're such poor representatives of our gender that women would throw themselves into the greatest scientific achievement in history just for the chance to widen the dating pool. ;D
I was amused by the story, but it left a bad aftertaste. <shrug> Like I said, ambivalent.
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Just catching up on some Escape Pod episodes and damn is this not the discussion thread I was expecting to find. Did I listen to a completely different story?
Chick Lit clashes with pre-Golden Age Sci-Fi and I'm not sure which one comes off worse... but I mean that in a good way! There's more than just the title to suggest that this is satirical: the female narrator searching for the superlative Mr Right, the "Buck Rogers"-style space ship, Mr Right turning out to be galactically rich, and wild US-centrism (with a couple of token nods to the UK) are some things that suggest to me that this is specifically a parody of two (admittedly easily parodied) genres. It reminds me most of the movie trailer mashups popular on YouTube.
And it's fun! If "fun" is still Escape Pod's number one selection criterion, this smart and playful story is one of the best-qualified so far. IMO.
I wonder if what's throwing people off is that there's a lack of broad farce (other than the valued art of Hollywood) and some worthwhile SF mixed in with the junk that could have suggested a more serious story (the alien's first contact was handled well and I liked the line about his visit opening humanity's eyes to the treasures of Earth). If I took it seriously, I would find it shallow and offensive in several ways. If I took it as an observational comedy about women and SF, I wouldn't find it funny. But as a send-up of genre cliches it's a joy.
Of course, I may be giving too much benefit of the doubt to the author. I usually prefer -- where I have a choice -- to read that way.
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Thanks for the post Roney. I think if I take a second listen or a first look at this story, I'll enjoy it more seeing it the way you did.
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Just catching up on some Escape Pod episodes and damn is this not the discussion thread I was expecting to find. Did I listen to a completely different story?
Chick Lit clashes with pre-Golden Age Sci-Fi and I'm not sure which one comes off worse... but I mean that in a good way! There's more than just the title to suggest that this is satirical: the female narrator searching for the superlative Mr Right, the "Buck Rogers"-style space ship, Mr Right turning out to be galactically rich, and wild US-centrism (with a couple of token nods to the UK) are some things that suggest to me that this is specifically a parody of two (admittedly easily parodied) genres. It reminds me most of the movie trailer mashups popular on YouTube.
And it's fun! If "fun" is still Escape Pod's number one selection criterion, this smart and playful story is one of the best-qualified so far. IMO.
I wonder if what's throwing people off is that there's a lack of broad farce (other than the valued art of Hollywood) and some worthwhile SF mixed in with the junk that could have suggested a more serious story (the alien's first contact was handled well and I liked the line about his visit opening humanity's eyes to the treasures of Earth). If I took it seriously, I would find it shallow and offensive in several ways. If I took it as an observational comedy about women and SF, I wouldn't find it funny. But as a send-up of genre cliches it's a joy.
Of course, I may be giving too much benefit of the doubt to the author. I usually prefer -- where I have a choice -- to read that way.
I'm wondering
if the story
had a racist focus
would you have the same opinion?
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I agree with Roney...this isn't the discussion I expected to find.
I thought it was a classic SF story. You take an interesting techo-cultural observation (which is by it's nature a gross generalization), you place it a few years in the future, and you narrate a few people reacting to it. And even though it's 'in the future', it ends up reflecting current society.
I thought it did an excellent job of reflecting our current 'American Idol/'Bradgelina'-obsessed mass culture as a tool ripe for use by aliens.
The story set the protagonist up as a member of this mass culture, who was drawn in by the snare, and was more intelligent and observant that others that same snare had caught in the past.
And in the end, I thought it celebrated the power of women in society as both motivators AND doers...
I wonder if the dissonance of the story compared to the forums is a reflection of the subset of people here, as opposed to those reflected in the story...
Tim
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I thought it did an excellent job of reflecting our current 'American Idol/'Bradgelina'-obsessed mass culture as a tool ripe for use by aliens.
Hmph. I think aliens would be wise enough to see that such culture has no use at all. Unless the aliens planned to enslave us and needed a potent distraction to keep us from catching on, I don't think they'd have much interest in American Idol.
-------------------
Incidentally, I recently picked up the book "A Science Fiction Argosy" edited by Damon Knight from the local library. The book was published in 1972, and all the stories in it are more or less from "golden age" classic timeframe. I've been frankly amazed at just how disparaging these stories are to women.
Paraphrase of what I said to my wife about it: All the characters are male unless 1.) there is a specific reason why the plot requires a female character or 2.) the author wanted "cheesecake." In either case, what few women appear are shallow, frail, weak-minded and have huge breasts. Male characters are charismatic and proactive while females are passive and reactionary. I find this so annoying that it's hard for me to get any enjoyment from the stories. (In fairness, I didn't read the whole "Argosy," maybe a third of it; it's very long.)
This story does strike me as being in that same spirit, but that isn't a redeeming quality, IMHO.
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Incidentally, I recently picked up the book "A Science Fiction Argosy" edited by Damon Knight from the local library. The book was published in 1974, and all the stories in it are more or less from "golden age" classic timeframe. I've been frankly amazed at just how disparaging these stories are to women.
Paraphrase of what I said to my wife about it: All the characters are male unless 1.) there is a specific reason why the plot requires a female character or 2.) the author wanted "cheesecake." In either case, what few women appear are shallow, frail, weak-minded and have huge breasts. Male characters are charismatic and proactive while females are passive and reactionary. I find this so annoying that it's hard for me to get any enjoyment from the stories. (In fairness, I didn't read the whole "Argosy," maybe a third of it; it's very long.)
This story does strike me as being in that same spirit, but that isn't a redeeming quality, IMHO.
I wonder if the stories are
framed that way because
it is focused at a particularly male reader?
I remember reading that
the band Rush had few (5% or so women fans)
and its music was described as "cock rock".
I don't think they
specifically wrote their music that way
but they know their audience.
Damon Knight was born in 1922
and the stories were most likely
written several years prior to the published date
and the general public acceptance of women's liberation.
While I do not believe
what you describe is appropriate
it does lend some perspective into it.
I do not believe it would be appropriate
to write such stories today.
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In either case, what few women appear are shallow, frail, weak-minded and have huge breasts.
I'm curious...do they actually mention breast sizes?
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In either case, what few women appear are shallow, frail, weak-minded and have huge breasts.
I'm curious...do they actually mention breast sizes?
I missed that. I'll have to listen again more carefully. ;D
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In either case, what few women appear are shallow, frail, weak-minded and have huge breasts.
I'm curious...do they actually mention breast sizes?
Well, yeah, actually. I remember one woman being described as having a "well-filled" blouse and another was referred to as being "stacked" several times in a story. A woman's breasts are described as "a miracle of pneumatic surgery." Stuff like that.
So, yes, breast size is specifically referenced in many of "Argosy's" stories, among more general descriptions of how every single woman in the "classic" universe is stunningly gorgeous and liberally flirtatious.
Not many female scientists, though. (Although if there is a female scientist, she is, of course, young, gorgeous and liberally flirtatious.)
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Thanks for posting the specifics...on the one hand it's hilarious and on the other it's just plain sad. I know it existed but it's certainly not something I ever had to live with (me who grew up with Ripley and Sarah Connor). Things have certainly got better in the medium. They're not perfect but certainly better.
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Thanks for posting the specifics...on the one hand it's hilarious and on the other it's just plain sad. I know it existed but it's certainly not something I ever had to live with (me who grew up with Ripley and Sarah Connor). Things have certainly got better in the medium. They're not perfect but certainly better.
Better in some ways and worse in others. I'm not sure if there's been any real improvement or just a shifting from one type of bad to another. (Is the hypersexual playgirl stereotype really better than the meek damsel-in-distress stereotype?)
At least modern fiction generally recognizes that a brain is an organ of the female anatomy, and that's a good thing.
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I don't think that's the reality, although it might be the perceived stereotype. 4 of the 5 of the SF/F books I've read most recently portray women as much more complicated than that: Charlie Stross' Singularity Sky (Rachel, who's both smarter and tougher than all the men in the book), John Scalzi's Old Man's War (Jane Sagan who can easily kick the protagonist's ass), Elizabeth Bear's Hammered (Jenny Casey, the protagonist, who's pushing 50, has a faceful of scars, and a metal arm), and JK Rowling's Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows.
Cory Doctorow's Eastern Standard Tribe's is the fifth, and while the female with the biggest part in that book has an interesting history, she still just comes across as a manipulative bitch. In the other 4, I don't think any of the women central to the story are portrayed as hyerpsexual. Some of them have sex, sure. But none of them are just about sex.
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Hmm... I think you're right.
I see the stereotype I was referring to more in pop culture. I don't think entertainment in general has made any advance, but SF/F literature of today is definitely more respectful of women than the SF of 50 years ago.
Yea for SF!
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This showed up in my podcast feed today, and it made me think a bit of some of the early discussion on this thread:
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/66559
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<much of my original post snipped, but I think the most relevant bits are left>
If I took it as an observational comedy about women and SF, I wouldn't find it funny. But as a send-up of genre cliches it's a joy.
Of course, I may be giving too much benefit of the doubt to the author. I usually prefer -- where I have a choice -- to read that way.
I'm wondering
if the story
had a racist focus
would you have the same opinion?
The short answer is that yes, I think I would. The best way to make stereotypes untenable for future use is to show how laughable they are. Whether it's a sexist, racist, homophobic or whatever stereotype, the more people that can be converted to the side of "can't take it seriously", the smaller the audience for the genuine poison.
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<much of my original post snipped, but I think the most relevant bits are left>
If I took it as an observational comedy about women and SF, I wouldn't find it funny. But as a send-up of genre cliches it's a joy.
Of course, I may be giving too much benefit of the doubt to the author. I usually prefer -- where I have a choice -- to read that way.
I'm wondering
if the story
had a racist focus
would you have the same opinion?
The short answer is that yes, I think I would. The best way to make stereotypes untenable for future use is to show how laughable they are. Whether it's a sexist, racist, homophobic or whatever stereotype, the more people that can be converted to the side of "can't take it seriously", the smaller the audience for the genuine poison.
You may want to consider
that not everyone has the same sense of humor as you.
I do not see the humor in this story you see.
Stereotypes are kept alive
by those who use them.
Stop using them and
people will forget them;
eventually.
It is not the stereotype
you want to highlight
but the ignorance of the person
who employs them.
The end does not
justify the means.
Agree?
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In either case, what few women appear are shallow, frail, weak-minded and have huge breasts.
I'm curious...do they actually mention breast sizes?
In Heinlein's "Podkayne of Mars", Our Plucky Heroine makes a reference to her "chest" being so big in order to get as much oxygen from the thin atmosphere as possible. Not her "breast size" as such, but I don't think it was an accident that I (as a young teenage boy) made the association. Certainly, she was not portrayed as shallow, frail or weak-minded.
About Aliens Want Our Women:
I thought we were being steered to expect a Bluebeard ending. When it did not turn out that way, I went "huh?". Usually that's A Good Thing, but I'm not sure it's true for this story. I think it was because there were two twists endings, unrelated to each other. The business of the women being the catalysts for interstellar exploration was one; and the business of the movies being a major interplanetary trade commodity was the other, even though it had little to do with everything else that went on before.
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In either case, what few women appear are shallow, frail, weak-minded and have huge breasts.
I'm curious...do they actually mention breast sizes?
In Heinlein's "Podkayne of Mars", Our Plucky Heroine makes a reference to her "chest" being so big in order to get as much oxygen from the thin atmosphere as possible. Not her "breast size" as such, but I don't think it was an accident that I (as a young teenage boy) made the association. Certainly, she was not portrayed as shallow, frail or weak-minded.
Well, Heinlein's in a class by himself when it comes to women. In all the Heinlein I've read, he tends to write them as very pretty and also very smart. If they don't start out that way, they usually end up that way.
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The best way to make stereotypes untenable for future use is to show how laughable they are. Whether it's a sexist, racist, homophobic or whatever stereotype, the more people that can be converted to the side of "can't take it seriously", the smaller the audience for the genuine poison.
You may want to consider
that not everyone has the same sense of humor as you.
I do not see the humor in this story you see.
True, and there is always a danger with parody that it can be taken seriously. The ones that keep you guessing are sometimes funniest, but also prone to being celebrated by some of the intended targets. (Mind you, it's not just the subtle ones that get some odd readings. The CAP review of Team America: World Police (http://www.capalert.com/capreports/teamamerica-worldpolice.htm) laments the blasphemy in an "anti-left" film; didn't they notice that it was anti-everyone? (Warning: site design may harm sensitive eyes.))
Stereotypes are kept alive
by those who use them.
Stop using them and
people will forget them;
eventually.
As one author, the author of this story could have written something else, and one fewer story employing chick-lit stereotypes would exist. Hundreds of others are still being written. Net result: almost no change. Or, as one author, she could write a story lampooning the stereotype that makes a number of readers uncomfortable or amused. Either way, when reading future stories, proof-reading them, or writing them, those people might pause and think "This is starting to sound like Aliens Want Our Women -- that's not good." Net result: slight reduction in the tolerance of the stereotype amongst writers, publishers and readers.
It can only do harm if the parody fuels the market for serious use of the stereotype. It's possible but, in this case, unlikely.
It is not the stereotype
you want to highlight
but the ignorance of the person
who employs them.
Sadly, this kind of patronizing portrayal of women is most often written by women, for consumption (in the tens of thousands of copies, good sales figures for the UK market) by women. As a man, I'm comfortable ridiculing the stereotype but not claiming a superior understanding of women's feelings and actions than the authors.
In chick-lit's defence, few of the writers or readers probably think of it as anything other than lightweight fluff to while away a few holiday hours on the beach or plane. Still, it's pretty depressing. It reminds me of the most disparaging conclusion to a book review I've ever read: "If you only read one book this year, this is probably the book that you'll read."
The end does not
justify the means.
Agree?
Depends on the end, depends on the means.
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Stereotypes are kept alive
by those who use them.
Stop using them and
people will forget them;
eventually.
It is not the stereotype
you want to highlight
but the ignorance of the person
who employs them.
You make it sound as if stereotypes are necessarily bad.
My dictionary defines it as "a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing".
I'm not saying that there are many good stereotypes, but a few of them are useful shorthand for a number of character types. Take "cowboy", for example. It conjures up a whole bunch of associations, and most of them are good, depending on the context. I'm sure that most cowboys do not 100% fit the stereotype (or even 10%), but I don't see it as a harmful thing.
Okay, maybe the "cowboy" is more of an archetype, but the distinction is somewhat fuzzy.
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In my opinion, Planish, stereotypes always represent sloppy, lazy thinking. Even those that are ,onm the surface, positive, lead one to relate to the stereotypical image rather than the individual.
The first one that leaps to mind is the "noble savage" stereotype of native American peoples. If you see them as spiritual people living in harmony with nature you stop looking at individuals and start looking at a template.
Using your example of "cowboy", for instance, one would think of a strong, silent, rugged individualist. It ignores the fact that a cowboy may or may not be as emotionally complex and expressive as any other person. To say "cowboy" in a story and expect a reader to draw a whole set of conclusions is lazy writing. To hear it in real life and make a whole set of assumptions about an individual is lazy thinking which gives short shrift to the individual.
(just my $.02)
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Anarkey? Palimpsest? Are you out there?
Hi. I am, in fact, here. I had put off listening to this piece, so I didn't have anything to say earlier.
I think it was supposed to be funny. I didn't laugh. I didn't like how it was written, though possibly the tone was intentionally overdone; writing poorly on purpose is notoriously hard to pull off. Someone way way way upthread had commented about it being hard to understand the protagonist because she's essentially a blank slate until the rocket shows up and I completely agree. No one in this story was real or believable. Again, that's a common setpiece for satire, but ehhh, it didn't do anything for me in this instance. I hated the number of lines that began "All women did x" or "All women did y". Really? No one was getting an apendectomy that day? Not a single woman in the entire planet said, "Ehhh, aliens not so much for me"?
I strongly prefer stories with realistic characters in them.
However, because everything was so superficial and fake, I don't feel I have any kind of stake in the feminist/non-feminist discussion. I have the same problem with protracted discussions of the problems of big media (too much violence, not enough non-white people, caricatured portrayals). This stuff only bothers me if I care about the work or the medium. Since I have ready access to my remote control and can stop watching crappy TV at ANY time...I can't generate any heat for these types of discussions.
OTOH, if I find I like your world and your characters and your setting and I'm invested, and then you make all your black people crazy, religious fanatics (*cough* BSG *cough*), then you'll see me riled because you ruined a perfectly good story with your stupid racism (or sexism, or whatever).
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Wow. Seriously- I think I enjoy reading forum discussion on these stories nearly as much as I like hearing the stories themselves. This is such a creative and brilliant community. Viva le Escapepod forums!
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Get us into space travel faster by making all the women jealous. How cool is that!!
I thought this piece was hilarious, and I found the resolution surprisingly tricky. I listened to this with my step-daughter and at the point where she was on his ship having dinner, she said "He is going to eat her!" and I was prepared to bet money on that - I mean, where else did those eight wives go?
The most delicious part of this story was that we are being tricked into making for ourselves exactly what we hoped to obtain from the alien in the first place.
Leann Mabry's reading of this Ramona Louise Wheeler was perfect: I found myself enthralled by the sensual imagery of our protagonist being so positively affected by the alien in such a personal way.
Excellent story!
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The funniest thing about this podcast is that the story reminded me of a German song from 1981: “Fred from Jupiter”. The planet next to the space rift and the golden appearance of this women’s alien are the basic plot outline of this 16 year old new wave monstrosity as well as this episode. Fascinating!
Witness the original at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yw5F8Noxgu4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yw5F8Noxgu4)
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Every female on the planet had just acquired a brand new agenda in life.[/i]
The story struck a wrong note from me right at the beginning with lines like this. Really? Every female on the planet is pursuing this alien man? What about lesbians? What about species-ists? What about nuns? What about Amish (who don't have TVs to hear all about the hot alien bachelor, and in any case would be morally opposed to riding in a spaceship)? What about women in comas? What about baby girls (it says every female, not every woman)? What about females of other species, like dogs or birds or lemurs?
Even if that line were revised to say "all women", I still don't believe it. When you're talking about a population group in the billions, there is almost nothing, beyond biological imperatives, that you can literally describe all of that group as doing. "All women will die" will work, of course, because that's an inevitability, but "All women will choose to do x" won't. Just as "All men" or "All Catholics" or "All Republicans" can never be an accurate statement. Each of those groups is made up of individuals, and so saying that "all women" will pursue this man is clearly untrue.
When the narrator lies to me so blatantly and so early in the story, I have less connection to the rest, because I assume that it's all mixed in with liberal amounts of lies that are harder to detect than this obvious one. Now, an unreliable narrator can be played very well if it's done in the right way, but this was not that way. Am I objecting too much to the simple use of the word "all"? Maybe, but when I'm reading a story, I want to immerse in it as much as I can to enjoy it. To do that, I have to trust the narrator that he is describing his/her world accurately. Start the story off with a lie, and that's ruined.
And if this had been part of a story that I found humorous, then exaggerated lines like that could have enhanced the humor. I could see Douglas Adams using a line like that, for instance, and to good effect. But nothing in this story tripped my funny bone in the slightest, so if that was the intent, it missed by a mile.
And I do find it a bit ridiculous on top of the over-generalizations, that the way that we'll get into space faster is by making the entire female population jealous--because apparently that's the only thing that'll motivate those darned females into being productive members of society! I don't buy it.
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Incidentally, I recently picked up the book "A Science Fiction Argosy" edited by Damon Knight from the local library. The book was published in 1972, and all the stories in it are more or less from "golden age" classic timeframe. I've been frankly amazed at just how disparaging these stories are to women.
Paraphrase of what I said to my wife about it: All the characters are male unless 1.) there is a specific reason why the plot requires a female character or 2.) the author wanted "cheesecake." In either case, what few women appear are shallow, frail, weak-minded and have huge breasts. Male characters are charismatic and proactive while females are passive and reactionary. I find this so annoying that it's hard for me to get any enjoyment from the stories. (In fairness, I didn't read the whole "Argosy," maybe a third of it; it's very long.)
This story does strike me as being in that same spirit, but that isn't a redeeming quality, IMHO.
I haven't read that collection, but i did get an anthology collection of stories from F&SF, published back in 1956 (or so). There was one amazingly good story in there titled "Gorilla Suit" I think. And most of the rest was extremely disparaging to women. The worst was by C.S. Lewis titled "Ministering Angels" in which the story begins at a Mars space station just as the first two women in space arrive. They're members of a new organization which wishes to reduce the job stress of astronauts by providing women to provide entertainment in their down time, up to and including sex. But the only two women who volunteered are i. a prostitute who has become so overweight she has lost all of her clients. ii. a geriatric professor who never stops lecturing. Both the women are portrayed as so annoying and disgusting that, while the women have cornered the protagonist in conversation, the rest of the crew hops into the only escape pod and leaves the rest behind--which in the story is clearly intended to be the fabled "fate worse than death".