Escape Artists

Escape Pod => Episode Comments => Topic started by: Russell Nash on June 22, 2008, 10:55:32 AM

Title: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Russell Nash on June 22, 2008, 10:55:32 AM
EP163: Revolution Time (http://escapepod.org/2008/06/20/ep163-revolution-time/)

By Lavie Tidhar (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~lavie/).
Read by Stephen Eley.
First appeared in Flurb #2 (http://www.flurb.net/2/2tidhar.htm), ed. Rudy Rucker.
Special closing music: “Think For Yourself” by George Hrab (http://geologicrecords.net/).

“I don’t see why you necessarily think it leads to the Chrono area,” Monty said, playing devil’s advocate. It was a month earlier, at the usual place: The Trotsky, a damp, dark watering hole in a run-down part of town which, rumour had it, was once visited by the man himself, in his own dark, yet colourful, past.

“Where else would it lead, man?” Morgan sparked up a joint and stared at him across the table. The smoke framed her face like the shape of a heart. “I wouldn’t be here –” she waved her finger at him, “and you wouldn’t be here, if it wasn’t something both of our respective organisations thought was worth pursuing.”

I smiled, admiring her strength and her energy. Monty scowled. “Take that puppy-dog-in-love look off your face. It’s embarrassing. And you,” he said, addressing Morgan, “should know better than to get your hopes up. After all, as the saying goes, they only ever bring back Shakespeare.”


Rated R. Contains some profanity, some violence, and communist propaganda. May be illegal in Louisiana.


Referenced Sites:
ClonePod (http://clonepod.org/)


(http://escapepod.org/wp-images/podcast-mini4.gif)
Listen to this week’s Escape Pod! (http://media.rawvoice.com/escapepod/media.libsyn.com/media/escapepod/EP163_RevolutionTime.mp3)
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Russell Nash on June 22, 2008, 10:56:13 AM
Sorry for the post being late folks.  Real life sometimes intervenes.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: sirana on June 22, 2008, 01:17:24 PM
meh, not my kind of story.
I don't have anything against left-leaning (or right leaning for that matter) political sci-fi, but timetravel doesn't grip me until it is done in a novel way and this one wasn't. Cardboard cutout characters, painful dialogue (the little dialogue that was there anyhow), much too much telling instead of showing and all that before a political backround that is barely more than a sketch.
Didn't like it at all.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Chivalrybean on June 22, 2008, 01:43:23 PM
I really didn't get the story at all. Maybe because I had a headache, I dunno.

After hearing Steve's announcement about submissions, I started on a story that I plan to submit that has no political agenda, but does have an android.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: stePH on June 22, 2008, 01:58:26 PM
Boring.  Twentyfive minutes that I'll never get back.

I do love that George Hrab song though; it was nice to hear it again (I believe it last played at the end of "The Sundial Brigade"). 
I'd be fine with letting Hrab do my thinking for me.  ;D
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: eytanz on June 22, 2008, 02:06:16 PM
So, lets see if I understood this: the revolutionaries brought back Marx, but, unbeknownst to them, before they got Marx, the 28th century revolution had already taken him and brought him back. So Marx knew all about the revolution and its failure because he was told during the later revolution, and was basically just enjoying the ride, knowing that nothing he does could put him at risk (as he dies at an older age in the past).

Is that about right?

Anyway, the thing is - this isn't really a political story, as it contained no politics. It contains a lot of political groups, and claims to be long to political movements, but not one word on what these groups politics actually is, or what they opposed. Sure, we can attach significance to the groups because of the names they picked and what we know of Marx and US politics and such, but the story itself didn't actually say it. I'm not sure whether this was supposed to be part of the satire, about the emptiness of many political causes these days; or not.

The end result was that my usual aversion to political stories didn't kick in, so I could enjoy it as the unoriginal, yet amusing, time travel story that it was. Not sure whether that was the desired reaction.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Boggled Coriander on June 22, 2008, 02:14:32 PM
So, lets see if I understood this: the revolutionaries brought back Marx, but, unbeknownst to them, before they got Marx, the 28th century revolution had already taken him and brought him back. So Marx knew all about the revolution and its failure because he was told during the later revolution, and was basically just enjoying the ride, knowing that nothing he does could put him at risk (as he dies at an older age in the past).
You know, I think you have it right.  That makes sense actually, from what I remember of the story.

I must admit I didn't figure any of it out while listening, and I was left thinking, "Huh?  Wha?  Whuh?"
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Schreiber on June 22, 2008, 02:58:37 PM
If someone told me they had a story about fringe socialist anarchists liberating a time machine, resurrecting Karl Marx, and leading a revolution, I probably would tear it from their hands to read it.  But "Revolution Time" just didn't work for me. 

I came away with the same conclusion about the plot as Eytanz did, that this particular revolution was "history" to Marx, that he was playing the part he knew he had to play based on what he learned in the 28th century.  Which is a neat idea.  But there's an old writer's axiom...no surprise for the writer, no surprise for the reader.  I think the same can be said for central characters.  Marx just  didn't pull his weight.  As a character he was a blank slate who didn't really feel one way or the other about where he was and what he was doing.  And as a device, he was a little nonsensical.  The man may well have been a skillful speaker, but that's hardly what he was famous for.  Are we really meant to buy into the idea that there was a (nearly) successful communist revolution waiting in the wings that only required a special guest appearance by a nineteenth century philosopher before it could take root in the hearts and minds of middle America?
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Nobilis on June 22, 2008, 03:06:35 PM
The only part of this story that was in any way interesting was the clumsy romance subplot.  Unfortunately, it got short shrift and I was left unsatisfied. 
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Schreiber on June 22, 2008, 03:31:49 PM
Unfortunately, it got short shrift and I was left unsatisfied. 

I would say "that's what she said," but what's the point....
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Ocicat on June 22, 2008, 08:53:08 PM
Another "meh" here.  I didn't hate it, but time travel stories are a hard sell for me.  It's almost impossible to create a world with time travel that's internally consistent and stands up to logical examination - actually I think it's only ever been done once, in David Gerrold's The Man Who Folded Himself (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1932100067/escapepod-20).  All other time travel stories had better say something about human nature, and just use the time travel as a parable or something - that's all it's good for. 

This story didn't have much more to it than the "clever" time travel twist, so it fell pretty flat. 
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Windup on June 22, 2008, 11:13:48 PM
From my point of view, EP finally threw a true clunker.  This story just didn't work for me in any way. 

The fundamental premise just wasn't plausible -- Karl Marx ignites a future revolution?  Hundreds of years after his ideas have been throughly debated, explored, tried out, etc?  Intellectually, he'd be pitted against people who had seen his playbook for generations.  And we're supposed to buy the idea that his 19th-century rhetorical skills will suddenly set the world on fire?  In a culture of which he has virtually no knowledge?  There's just no way to make all that work, in my mind.

Not to mention the idea that a government would try to put down an internal rebellion by using atomic weapons?  As Heinlein said right after WWII -- it would be like trying to keep order in a nursurey with a pistol.  Possibly the most extreme imaginable case of "destroying the village in order to save it."  And not one likely to fly...

As others mentioned, the characters were decidedly un-compelling -- cardboard cutouts, mostly.  We don't hear much about their motivations, and there are so many of them relative to story length, that we don't get to see much of them in action, and what action we do see reveals little.  Aside from the fact that they are "radical" we know nothing about the details of the ideology that motivates their actions.

The plot lacks much detail, and most of the action reads like a schematic.  Aside from the atomic bombs at the end, we know nothing about how the revolution takes hold, the course of the conflict, how the government resists, the techniques used by the revolutionaries, etc. 

So no, I don't "get it."  But I don't think it's ideological bias (I'm a bit of a lefty, anyway) but because it just wasn't a very good story. 

I liked the song at the end, though. And I missed the feedback section.

Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: CGFxColONeill on June 22, 2008, 11:31:20 PM
Boring.  Twentyfive minutes that I'll never get back.
Another "meh" here.  I didn't hate it, but time travel stories are a hard sell for me.  It's almost impossible to create a world with time travel that's internally consistent and stands up to logical examination
I take it Timeline did not work well for you from what you said?
I agree with both of you 25 waisted min and meh respectively lol
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: stePH on June 22, 2008, 11:41:58 PM
I take it Timeline did not work well for you from what you said?
I agree with both of you 25 waisted min and meh respectively lol

I haven't read Timeline, but I guess you're addressing that part of your reply to Ocicat.

Thankfully I didn't really "waste" 25 minutes, as if I were sitting listening to the story and doing nothing else.  The first half was heard as I lay in bed Friday night getting ready to sleep, and the rest was listened to while grilling dinner Saturday.  But the time could still have been better-spent listening to something else, like my Battlefield Earth audiobook to name one example.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: ajames on June 22, 2008, 11:44:34 PM
I only intend to play this card once, and I think now is time.

Worst. Escapepod. Ever.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Ocicat on June 23, 2008, 12:15:31 AM

I take it Timeline did not work well for you from what you said?


I haven't read anything called Timeline.  You mean the Michael Crichton novel?  Do you think it's a really good, consistent model of time travel... or are you being sarcastic?  Never having read it, I can't tell.  But given Crichton's record, I don't hold out much hope.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: CGFxColONeill on June 23, 2008, 01:44:42 AM

I take it Timeline did not work well for you from what you said?


I haven't read anything called Timeline.  You mean the Michael Crichton novel?  Do you think it's a really good, consistent model of time travel... or are you being sarcastic?  Never having read it, I can't tell.  But given Crichton's record, I don't hold out much hope.

yes that is what I meant, not really sure about consistency, they use a method similar to Turtledove's idea...
better than most of Crichton's stuff IMO
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: DarkKnightJRK on June 23, 2008, 01:56:26 AM
I have to agree with ajames' sentiment. Putting aside the implausibility of a revolution taking hold simply because they bring back Karl bloody Marx, who's ideas haven't really worked out during the course of history, there...wasn't much of a story.

Here, let me sum it up:

Communist Guy finds time machine. Communist Guy brings his gang of revolutionaries and bring back Karl Marx. A revolution happens. Government throws the baby with the bathwater by atomizing Washington, before Marx somehow knows what's going to happen in the 28th century. Communist Guy and Communist Girl live happily ever after.

Read that, and you save 25 minutes of your life.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: deflective on June 23, 2008, 02:08:14 AM
But the time could still have been better-spent listening to something else, like my Battlefield Earth audiobook to name one example.

oh, burn!
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: JoeFitz on June 23, 2008, 03:16:47 AM
Is that about right?

It was for me. Didn't even like this as EP: Lite (less filling but half as enjoyable). It's weird that it followed an EP: Lite story that was twice as long.

Oh well, as the man says, next week, different words in a different order.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: eytanz on June 23, 2008, 06:31:12 AM
Putting aside the implausibility of a revolution taking hold simply because they bring back Karl bloody Marx, who's ideas haven't really worked out during the course of history, there...wasn't much of a story.

See, that's sort of besides the point anyway - it doesn't matter if Marx's ideas worked, since ideas played no part in what they wanted him for.

One aspect of what makes this story inane is the fact that the time machine didn't get them anything they couldn't have gotten by just dressing up a guy as Marx and saying that they got him from the past.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Chodon on June 23, 2008, 12:17:58 PM
I usually like to post a dissenting opinion if I can come up with one, but I have to agree with everyone else on this.  This story really left me flat.

The romance part was absolute crap.  There was no character development.  I couldn't tell one interesting thing aboug any of the characters.  There was little action (in fact, there was no scene where the revolutionaries actually fought anyone).  The concept of communist revolutionaries taking any hold in the US is implausible (at least currently, maybe things will change by the time we develop time travel), as has been covered by everyone else already.  Finally, if the US government has the entire history worth of military leaders at their disposal why didn't they grab Ghengis Kahn, Alexander the Great, Leonidas, Napoleon, and Patton and just crush the revolution? 

And what was the point of saying when they bring someone from the past something has to give in present day?  I thought at first maybe they had to send someone back or something.  That may have made the story more interesting.

Finally, did anyone notice the editing glitch after the scene with Marx at the white house?  The scene about the main character going to the coast was repeated. 
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Listener on June 23, 2008, 12:58:17 PM
Finally, did anyone notice the editing glitch after the scene with Marx at the white house?  The scene about the main character going to the coast was repeated. 

Yup.  But it rarely happens on EP, so an occasional bump, I can handle.

Things I liked:
* About the Author -- you'd think with a bio like that he'd be able to come up with something cool.  Marge Piercy did it with "He, She, and It" (even if that one got a little mired down at the end).
* Morgan's splinter wicca group supplied the weapons.  That just amused the hell out of me.

Things I didn't like:
* Oh, look, a pale but dark-eyed beautiful English girl in Nevada who just so happens to be the love interest!
* The fact that these guys were communists wasn't a problem for me.  The problem was: who were they rebelling against?  The US Government is a monolithic entity, but we weren't told what the Gov't was doing that pissed them off so much.
* Happily ever after.
* Morgan didn't sound very English to me.

All in all, not a good EP in my opinion.  I'm reminded of the rejection letter I got from Ideomancer last night:
"Unfortunately, this piece didn't quite engage our imaginations: while well-written, this is a kind of story that's been written by just about every writer who's ever dabbled in [the genre], and it's extremely difficult to make it new or interesting."
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: wintermute on June 23, 2008, 01:14:28 PM
I'd say this was pretty middling. I didn't think it was as bad as others seem to have said, but I didn't think it was particularly good, either.

I certainly agree that the use of nuclear weapons in an internal conflict is utterly implausible, but I also thought the idea that the current government would exist in any recognisable form in eight centuries that would make "the revolution is coming" is equally ridiculous.

But to those people saying that Marx's ideals have been tested and found wanting: Well, no, they haven't. While his idea that the proletariat will naturally rise up against the owners of capital in developed nations has been proved false, no society larger than a dozen people has yet implemented an actual communist system. Instead, Marx's ideals were held up as things to strive for, in the glorious future.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Darwinist on June 23, 2008, 01:31:08 PM
Another "meh" here.  I didn't hate it, but time travel stories are a hard sell for me.  It's almost impossible to create a world with time travel that's internally consistent and stands up to logical examination - actually I think it's only ever been done once, in David Gerrold's The Man Who Folded Himself (http://www.amazon.com/Man-Who-Folded-Himself/dp/1932100067/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214167756&sr=8-1).  All other time travel stories had better say something about human nature, and just use the time travel as a parable or something - that's all it's good for. 

This story didn't have much more to it than the "clever" time travel twist, so it fell pretty flat. 

I generally like time travel stuff and thought the story was OK.  Loved The Man Who Folded Himself but also some other time travel stuff like The Time Ships and The Time Traveller's Wife. 
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Void Munashii on June 23, 2008, 02:58:08 PM
  Add me to the long list of "meh"s. I think part of my problem with this story is that 2 hours fo sleep I got last ngiht, but this story never really grabbed me. I didn't thoroughly dislike it like "Homecoming at the Borderlands Cafe", but I never really got into it.

  Part of the problem for me is that the story did not seem like a whole story. It seemed like the author was trying to keep inside of a size limit, and cut out things (many of which have already been mentioned, like 'Who are they rebelling against?') that would have created a more complete world for the story to take place in.


  Best parts of the story for me; I kinda like the ending, and the idea of Wiccan arms suppliers made me smile.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Ragtime on June 23, 2008, 03:06:19 PM
I was driving home from work on Friday, and decided to listen to the Escape Pod podcast.  Suddenly, for a fraction of a second my car was turned inside out, and sitting in the passenger seat was a person who looked exactly like me, wearing the same clothing -- only slightly different.

"Who are you?" I asked.

"I am you from 35 minutes into the future.  I have come back in time to warn you not to listen to the Escape Pod podcast.  It is very boring, despite the fact that Karl Marx is a character."

"Despite the fact?" I asked.  "Does future me have more sympathies toward Communist ideology that I did 35 minutes earlier?"

"Possibly," my future self tells me.

"Hey," I say, choosing to ignore my hypothetical future shift in politics, "my commute home is longer than 35 minutes.  If you are really me from 35 minutes into the future, shouldn't you still be driving the car?"

"Yes.  But I felt I couldn't wait.  The vehicle we were driving probably caused a massive car crash mere seconds after I left.  I must now travel back into the mangled wreckage.  The only way that you can save us both is to not listen to the Escape Pod podcast!  Then, my time line will never occur, and the car crash can be averted.  Save us both!  The choice is yours."

And then, the car turned inside out again and my future self was gone.

Anyway, because of that I didn't listen to the podcast, so I can't really give a critique of it here.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: jrderego on June 23, 2008, 03:11:28 PM
I was driving home from work on Friday, and decided to listen to the Escape Pod podcast.  Suddenly, for a fraction of a second my car was turned inside out, and sitting in the passenger seat was a person who looked exactly like me, wearing the same clothing -- only slightly different.

"Who are you?" I asked.

"I am you from 35 minutes into the future.  I have come back in time to warn you not to listen to the Escape Pod podcast.  It is very boring, despite the fact that Karl Marx is a character."

"Despite the fact?" I asked.  "Does future me have more sympathies toward Communist ideology that I did 35 minutes earlier?"

"Possibly," my future self tells me.

"Hey," I say, choosing to ignore my hypothetical future shift in politics, "my commute home is longer than 35 minutes.  If you are really me from 35 minutes into the future, shouldn't you still be driving the car?"

"Yes.  But I felt I couldn't wait.  The vehicle we were driving probably caused a massive car crash mere seconds after I left.  I must now travel back into the mangled wreckage.  The only way that you can save us both is to not listen to the Escape Pod podcast!  Then, my time line will never occur, and the car crash can be averted.  Save us both!  The choice is yours."

And then, the car turned inside out again and my future self was gone.

Anyway, because of that I didn't listen to the podcast, so I can't really give a critique of it here.

That story was actually better than Revolution Time. Go figure :)
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: wintermute on June 23, 2008, 03:18:51 PM
Anyway, because of that I didn't listen to the podcast, so I can't really give a critique of it here.
Five stars, Mr (?) Ragtime.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: CGFxColONeill on June 23, 2008, 03:39:35 PM
That story was actually better than Revolution Time.
That is my thought exactly when I finished reading his post
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: DKT on June 23, 2008, 04:05:01 PM
Seriously, am I the only one who was amused by this story?  In the 28th, this story became an underground movement that led to the glorious revolution of swinging time-traveler Karl Marx and his band of Kabbalah comrades that finally gave all us good forum members victory. 

Seriously, though, I did find this one enjoyable, but I had a serious problem with what Listener mentioned earlier: What the hell were they rebelling against?  I never figured that one out.  Also, the time travel thing -- well, like a lot of time travel stories, I have a hard time with the whole paradox of it all, but still, it amused me.

Also, I've read 4-5 other stories by Lavie Tidhar.  I definitely wouldn't object to hearing more of his stuff on the pods here (including Podcastle and Pseudopod -- he's got a pretty wide range, I think).
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Corydon on June 23, 2008, 04:10:04 PM
Seriously, though, I did find this one enjoyable, but I had a serious problem with what Listener mentioned earlier: What the hell were they rebelling against?

"What have you got?"

Sorry, couldn't restrain myself.

Anyway, I thought that the story was a somewhat silly satire of ineffectual leftist groups, maybe with a jab against time-travel fantasies.  It didn't make much impression on me, though I got a giggle out of the image of heavily-armed Wiccan commandos.  That's comedy gold, right there. 
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Void Munashii on June 23, 2008, 05:13:45 PM
I was driving home from work on Friday, and decided to listen to the Escape Pod podcast.  Suddenly, for a fraction of a second my car was turned inside out, and sitting in the passenger seat was a person who looked exactly like me, wearing the same clothing -- only slightly different.

  You should submit that as a flash piece, it was quite a bit more gripping than the story itself
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: birdless on June 23, 2008, 06:26:58 PM
I was driving home from work on Friday, and decided to listen to the Escape Pod podcast.  Suddenly, for a fraction of a second my car was turned inside out, and sitting in the passenger seat was a person who looked exactly like me, wearing the same clothing -- only slightly different.

"Who are you?" I asked.

"I am you from 35 minutes into the future.  I have come back in time to warn you not to listen to the Escape Pod podcast.  It is very boring, despite the fact that Karl Marx is a character."

"Despite the fact?" I asked.  "Does future me have more sympathies toward Communist ideology that I did 35 minutes earlier?"

"Possibly," my future self tells me.

"Hey," I say, choosing to ignore my hypothetical future shift in politics, "my commute home is longer than 35 minutes.  If you are really me from 35 minutes into the future, shouldn't you still be driving the car?"

"Yes.  But I felt I couldn't wait.  The vehicle we were driving probably caused a massive car crash mere seconds after I left.  I must now travel back into the mangled wreckage.  The only way that you can save us both is to not listen to the Escape Pod podcast!  Then, my time line will never occur, and the car crash can be averted.  Save us both!  The choice is yours."

And then, the car turned inside out again and my future self was gone.

Anyway, because of that I didn't listen to the podcast, so I can't really give a critique of it here.
This story almost made Revolution Time worth listening to... almost. I don't think i would have lost any appreciation for Ragtime's story if i hadn't heard the senseless, boring prequel. In fact, i probably would have appreciated it even more.

I did learn something from "Revolution Time" though. I'd never heard of social anarchism, and until i looked it up, i would have said that socialism and anarchism are like diametrically opposite. So, there's 1 point for that.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Russell Nash on June 23, 2008, 07:46:00 PM
::Putting on moderator's hat::

It was actually posted in the moderator's section that maybe you guys were getting a little too snarky and something should be said.  I didn't know, because I hadn't listened to the episode yet and therefore hadn't been in this threead since I started it.  So I listened to it while cleaning up the kitchen and then came here to read what you animals were writing.

Honestly, I'm amazed at your restraint and how intelligent the whole conversation has been.  Even when you're ripping something apart, you do it with class.

::Taking off moderator's hat::

I wish some future me had told me not to listen to it.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Yossarian's grandson on June 23, 2008, 08:42:14 PM
I agree with the comments above about the weak points of this story.

However, one thing about this one gave me cold chills:

Imagine people in the future really being so unoriginal and uncharismatic, that they have to go back in time in order to find someone to follow. Now that's a scary thought.....
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: ChiliFan on June 23, 2008, 09:40:45 PM
I think there just wasn't enough detail in the story. I don't know about any so called left wing stories in Escape Pod, perhaps because I'm not from the USA. Please could someone point out to me which episodes these are supposed to be? Having said that, I think what the characters in this story were rebelling against was the philosophy that money is more important than people's lives, which has been getting worse and worse in recent times. It seems to me that there's not much difference in Barack Obama and John McCain's policies. Various different types of politics claim to have been inspired by Karl Marx, just the same as different religions all claim to be based on the Bible. Come back Karl Marx, all is forgiven!

Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: birdless on June 23, 2008, 09:42:06 PM
Imagine people in the future really being so unoriginal and uncharismatic, that they have to go back in time in order to find someone to follow. Now that's a scary thought.....
Wow.... that is chilling. Nice call, there.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: eytanz on June 23, 2008, 09:50:49 PM
I think there just wasn't enough detail in the story. I don't know about any so called left wing stories in Escape Pod, perhaps because I'm not from the USA. Please could someone point out to me which episodes these are supposed to be?

Steve was joking. Though I guess that "The color of a brontosaurus" could possibly qualify, at least if you think the character of Rene was a satire of the religious right.

Quote
Having said that, I think what the characters in this story were rebelling against was the philosophy that money is more important than people's lives, which has been getting worse and worse in recent times.

Is there actually anything in the story that leads you to this impression? Or are you bringing in your own views into it? Both are valid ways to get at a reading, but I'm curious as to which you mean, and if it's the former, what the evidence is.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: ChiliFan on June 23, 2008, 10:11:57 PM
I think there just wasn't enough detail in the story. I don't know about any so called left wing stories in Escape Pod, perhaps because I'm not from the USA. Please could someone point out to me which episodes these are supposed to be?

Steve was joking. Though I guess that "The color of a brontosaurus" could possibly qualify, at least if you think the character of Rene was a satire of the religious right.

Quote
Having said that, I think what the characters in this story were rebelling against was the philosophy that money is more important than people's lives, which has been getting worse and worse in recent times.

Is there actually anything in the story that leads you to this impression? Or are you bringing in your own views into it? Both are valid ways to get at a reading, but I'm curious as to which you mean, and if it's the former, what the evidence is.


I think this story was set in the USA and in the present, so there's plenty to rebel against there.

 
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: eytanz on June 23, 2008, 10:17:57 PM

I think this story was set in the USA and in the present, so there's plenty to rebel against there.

 

It certainly is not set in the present. The story explicitly makes mention that:

A - The US government has a time machine which it publicly uses to periodically bring back Shakespeare, and has been doing so since the protagonist was a child.
B - A large percentage of the population lives off-world in space stations.

Unless I missed some important news lately, I think this means the story takes place towards the end of the 21st century, not in its beginning.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: lieffeil on June 23, 2008, 10:24:34 PM
Finally, if the US government has the entire history worth of military leaders at their disposal why didn't they grab Ghengis Kahn(...)just crush the revolution? 
::)
Yes... why NOT bring back Ghengis Kahn? Seriously, what a peach!

As for "Revolution Time", I, like a fair number of people on this thread, am set in neutral.
For a while there, though, I did think that they had made a mistake and accidentally brought back Groucho, not Karl. I was waiting for a punchline, a "surprise, suckers!" . It never came... and that made me sad. So much potential...
Totally enjoyed the intro and outro, though. Steve's line about the domain name being taken... dinosaurs and centrists... and then of course "Think for Yourself". Those were the highlights of the story. (Ignore the fact that they were not actually in it, and it was top notch!)
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: deflective on June 23, 2008, 10:55:59 PM
in case people haven't seen it yet, why not Hitler (http://www.abyssandapex.com/200710-wikihistory.html)?
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Russell Nash on June 23, 2008, 11:11:50 PM
in case people haven't seen it yet, why not Hitler (http://www.abyssandapex.com/200710-wikihistory.html)?

That was stinking hilarious!
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: stePH on June 23, 2008, 11:18:41 PM
in case people haven't seen it yet, why not Hitler (http://www.abyssandapex.com/200710-wikihistory.html)?

Beautiful  ;D
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Chodon on June 24, 2008, 12:36:02 AM
Finally, if the US government has the entire history worth of military leaders at their disposal why didn't they grab Ghengis Kahn(...)just crush the revolution? 
::)
Yes... why NOT bring back Ghengis Kahn? Seriously, what a peach!
Hey, I'm not saying bring him to the future because he's a nice guy.  I'm saying bring him back because he wins wars.  He could be threatening to the current regime though.  He WAS the ruler of the largest contiguous empire in history.  If there is some incidental raping and pillaging, well sometimes that price has to be paid.  Would you rather have Erwin Rommel? 

Wait, I probably would.  He did try to kill Hitler, after all.

Anyhow, you get my point.  The Kahn takes care of business.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: wintermute on June 24, 2008, 01:31:14 AM
I suspect that Ghengis' tactical knowledge would be woefully out of date. How long would we need to spend training him in modern warfare techniques before he was ready to command an army not principally formed of sword-weilding horsemen?

It's kind of like bringing Newton (Sir Isaac, not Fig) forward, and expecting him to understand quantum mechanics.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Chodon on June 24, 2008, 02:16:51 AM
I suspect that Ghengis' tactical knowledge would be woefully out of date. How long would we need to spend training him in modern warfare techniques before he was ready to command an army not principally formed of sword-weilding horsemen?

It's kind of like bringing Newton (Sir Isaac, not Fig) forward, and expecting him to understand quantum mechanics.
I totally agree, on a tactical level.  I wouldn't expect Ghengis Kahn to be out there leading squads of soldiers, or all of them would most likely end up dead.  However, at a strategic level he would be invaluable.  War at both extremes (the overall strategy, and the individual soldier's spirit) hasn't changed since Sun Tzu wrote "The Art of War", which is about 1700 years before Ghengis Kahn was around and 2500 years since modern day.  It's still required readings at all US military academies and Norman Schwarzkopf referenced it specifically as his inspiration for Gulf War Part One: The Successful War With Iraq.

Kahn would be fantastic at setting up training regimens for boot camps, military policy, and general strategy.  Plus, my guess is people would follow him.  He was one hell of a ruler.  He's still on currency in Mongolia and Kazakhstan, which is testament to his influence. 
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Talia on June 24, 2008, 02:40:40 AM
Has anyone thought the story might work better purely in written form?

It was my impression it was supposed to be somewhat satirical; I think one problem is that doesn't come across quite as well in audio form as in purely written.

I think part of it is, in any given audio piece, part of the tone is delivered by the reader. This is not to say there was anything wrong with the reading, there wasn't; just that maybe the satirical angle doesn't come across quite as well through the interpretation of someone else, rather than lettling it just settle in your own mind.

Just a thought. I haven't tried just reading the story's text yet; I might. I like the concept enough to give it another chance.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: stePH on June 24, 2008, 02:57:13 AM
Has anyone thought the story might work better purely in written form?

That's a fair question, and one that deserves a carefully thought out and reasoned answer.  Here it is:

No.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Sandikal on June 24, 2008, 03:45:14 AM
I have no idea what "meh" means, but I'm guessing it means "yuck".  It that's the case, I agree.  Personally, I love time travel stories.  I love "The Time Machine," Connie Willis' "Doomsday Book" and "To Say Nothing of the Dog" and that Ray Bradbury story where the tourist go back to prehistoric times to hunt dinosaurs but one kills something that wasn't supposed to die and when they get back, all the signs are misspelled.  My favorite Star Trek episodes are the time travel ones.  I love Dr. Who.  And, one of my favorite shows when I was a kid was "The Time Tunnel."   I'm a time travel geek.

This story was absolutely stupid.  It was way too full of paradoxes.  I completely expected that the narrator would have been sent back to wherever they got Marx from.  After all, they needed to replace the mass and he was in the right spot in the room to get transported back.  And, Marx knew all this stuff was going to happen, but it didn't change the past?  How stupid is that? 

I thought Ragtime's story was fabulous though.  That's how a time travel story should read.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: CGFxColONeill on June 24, 2008, 04:22:18 AM
**snip
Honestly, I'm amazed at your restraint and how intelligent the whole conversation has been.  Even when you're ripping something apart, you do it with class.
**snip**
thanks for the good laugh here I needed that lol
I have no idea what "meh" means,
**snip**
meh (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=meh)
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: stePH on June 24, 2008, 04:42:42 AM
I have no idea what "meh" means,
**snip**
meh (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=meh)

Urban Dictionary is far more worthy of the scorn and derision that many people lavish upon Wikipedia.  As a source of information, I consider it almost completely worthless.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: stePH on June 24, 2008, 04:45:32 AM
...and that Ray Bradbury story where the tourist go back to prehistoric times to hunt dinosaurs but one kills something that wasn't supposed to die and when they get back, all the signs are misspelled. 

"A Sound of Thunder".  I saw a commercial indicating that it will soon be a Skiffy Channel Original Movie, last Saturday night while watching the latest Doctor Who.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: CammoBlammo on June 24, 2008, 06:41:53 AM
I'm worried I'm going to lose all my credibility for saying this, but...

I REALLY LIKED THIS ONE!!!!

Sorry, I had to say it. In fact, it's one of my favourite EPs yet. Up there with Friction.

I wouldn't worry about the leftist politics Steve, because it was a story about one consequence of time travel, not leftism. To pick up on what others have been saying, it would have worked just as well if the cell were a bunch of neo-nazis bringing Hitler back.

The real kick for me was at the end when the cell all went on to different lives. Some died, some continued the revolution, and some got on with life while staying true to their cause. That's always been one of the sad but real parts of life for me. I knew many bright-eyed ideologists at University who were willing to die for one cause or another. They were willing to die for it; living for it, though, was another matter. There was the anarchist who majored in economics and ended up selling insurance. There was the fundamentalist Christian who was going to save the world, but ended up doing security work at a seedy night club.

None of them sold out --- they simply realised their ideology also involved caring for their families and putting food on the table. In other words, they grew up. This might be one of the reasons I put it up there with Friction --- one of the main themes was, 'What do we consider so important we're willing to sacrifice our entire lives for it?'

In this case, they knew their revolution would eventually succeed, but they also knew they wouldn't be around to see it (assuming they hadn't fixed the mortality issue by then). This has a lot of implications. There's lots of reason to despair about our future, and lots of reason to be hopeful. Personally, if I had a guarantee that the revolution would succeed in 800 years I wouldn't bother fighting. I wouldn't even bother when the time came. Why risk everything for a cause that cannot lose?

Just on that, somebody complained that there was no indication about what the cell were fighting against. There was one clue --- it was a government that was prepared to nuke their own nation in order to win. If my nation were to consider that a real option, I'd probably think about a revolution too.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: eytanz on June 24, 2008, 07:18:06 AM
Just on that, somebody complained that there was no indication about what the cell were fighting against. There was one clue --- it was a government that was prepared to nuke their own nation in order to win. If my nation were to consider that a real option, I'd probably think about a revolution too.

Ah, but the thing is -that can't be the justification, because that took the revolutionaries (except Marx himself) entirely by surprise. They certainly didn't believe that they were rebelling against a government that was prepared to nuke its own people, which is why the trap worked so well.

I happen to agree with you, by the way, in that the story works best if you take it to be a story about time travel rather than a story about politics. I think as a story about time travel, it was pretty decent, even though its basic premise (that the future needs to bring forth people from the past to achieve anything) is silly. The politics, though, are just painted on with a thin brush and are totally meaningless.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: sirana on June 24, 2008, 09:09:08 AM
Finally, if the US government has the entire history worth of military leaders at their disposal why didn't they grab Ghengis Kahn, Alexander the Great, Leonidas, Napoleon, and Patton and just crush the revolution? 

You know, following this line of thought could have actually made this into a good story.

I wouldn't worry about the leftist politics Steve, because it was a story about one consequence of time travel, not leftism. To pick up on what others have been saying, it would have worked just as well if the cell were a bunch of neo-nazis bringing Hitler back.
Imho, this would have been also a better story, if they brought back Hitler (or Stalin for that matter). Marx is more like a Communist Santa Claus, he is to inoffensive to shake up the story. Now if they tried to bring back Hitler this would make the characters more interesting plus it puts the reader in a difficult position: "Well the main character seems like a decent person, but HE'S TRYING TO BRING BACK HITLER".

Combining the two would also be funny: Some rebel group brings back Hitler, they plunge the US into civil war. The US Gouvernment frantically brings in military genius after military genius from the past only to get their asses handed to them. Finally they bring in Genghis Khan who defeats Hitler's troups and singlehandedly rips Hitler's head off, only to incorporate the US into his New Mongolian Empire.

I really would like to hear that story... ;-)
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Listener on June 24, 2008, 09:32:11 AM

I think this story was set in the USA and in the present, so there's plenty to rebel against there.

 

It certainly is not set in the present. The story explicitly makes mention that:

A - The US government has a time machine which it publicly uses to periodically bring back Shakespeare, and has been doing so since the protagonist was a child.
B - A large percentage of the population lives off-world in space stations.

Unless I missed some important news lately, I think this means the story takes place towards the end of the 21st century, not in its beginning.

I believe Marx referenced something about the 21st.  But that makes it even more unrealistic to me, because there is no way that ANY percentage of the population beyond 5.0x10E-13 will live on off-world space stations between now and 2099.

PS: 5.0x10E-13 is 3 (the population of the ISS) divided by 6,000,000,000,000 (the approximate number of people on Earth at present).  I suppose I should've divided by 7 or 8 trillion, but I'm just trying to make a point.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: eytanz on June 24, 2008, 09:56:02 AM

I think this story was set in the USA and in the present, so there's plenty to rebel against there.

 

It certainly is not set in the present. The story explicitly makes mention that:

A - The US government has a time machine which it publicly uses to periodically bring back Shakespeare, and has been doing so since the protagonist was a child.
B - A large percentage of the population lives off-world in space stations.

Unless I missed some important news lately, I think this means the story takes place towards the end of the 21st century, not in its beginning.

I believe Marx referenced something about the 21st.  But that makes it even more unrealistic to me, because there is no way that ANY percentage of the population beyond 5.0x10E-13 will live on off-world space stations between now and 2099.

PS: 5.0x10E-13 is 3 (the population of the ISS) divided by 6,000,000,000,000 (the approximate number of people on Earth at present).  I suppose I should've divided by 7 or 8 trillion, but I'm just trying to make a point.

Oh,  I don't know. I can easily seeing the proportion doubling, or tripling. Or maybe even increasing beyond that - why, I think it's quite plausible that by the end of the 21st century the earth population will double, and there will be several hundred people living on space stations.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Russell Nash on June 24, 2008, 11:25:28 AM

I think this story was set in the USA and in the present, so there's plenty to rebel against there.

 

It certainly is not set in the present. The story explicitly makes mention that:

A - The US government has a time machine which it publicly uses to periodically bring back Shakespeare, and has been doing so since the protagonist was a child.
B - A large percentage of the population lives off-world in space stations.

Unless I missed some important news lately, I think this means the story takes place towards the end of the 21st century, not in its beginning.

I believe Marx referenced something about the 21st.  But that makes it even more unrealistic to me, because there is no way that ANY percentage of the population beyond 5.0x10E-13 will live on off-world space stations between now and 2099.

PS: 5.0x10E-13 is 3 (the population of the ISS) divided by 6,000,000,000,000 (the approximate number of people on Earth at present).  I suppose I should've divided by 7 or 8 trillion, but I'm just trying to make a point.

Oh,  I don't know. I can easily seeing the proportion doubling, or tripling. Or maybe even increasing beyond that - why, I think it's quite plausible that by the end of the 21st century the earth population will double, and there will be several hundred people living on space stations.

World population: 6.7 Billion (http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html)

US national debt:  9.3 Trillion (http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/BPDLogin?application=np)

Billion is with 9 zeroes.  Trillion is with 12.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: deflective on June 24, 2008, 11:45:22 AM
it's an international space station.

dubai is starting space tourism (http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/060222_techwed_spaceadventures.html) with a chunk of that debt. recent states' policies mean that they may be watching when cool stuff happens but it's still gonna happen.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Darwinist on June 24, 2008, 01:08:35 PM
...and that Ray Bradbury story where the tourist go back to prehistoric times to hunt dinosaurs but one kills something that wasn't supposed to die and when they get back, all the signs are misspelled. 

"A Sound of Thunder".  I saw a commercial indicating that it will soon be a Skiffy Channel Original Movie, last Saturday night while watching the latest Doctor Who.

I saw the 2005 or 2006 big screen version "A Sound of Thunder".  An absolute pile of dung.  Avoid it at all costs.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: wintermute on June 24, 2008, 01:26:49 PM
I believe Marx referenced something about the 21st.  But that makes it even more unrealistic to me, because there is no way that ANY percentage of the population beyond 5.0x10E-13 will live on off-world space stations between now and 2099.

Yeah, just like how, in 1960 people said that there was no way men would walk on the Moon within a decade.

All it takes is political will. If that's there, there's no technical reason why we can't have dozens, or hundreds, of people in permanent orbital habitats within 50 years. Maybe tens of thousands within the century.

Right now, it doesn't seem very likely, with NASA being stripped to the bone, and the European, Japanese, Chinese and Russian space programmes not in any better shape. But if we get a head of state who pulls a Kennedy on this, you can be sure that it'll happen.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: stePH on June 24, 2008, 01:29:39 PM
"A Sound of Thunder".  I saw a commercial indicating that it will soon be a Skiffy Channel Original Movie, last Saturday night while watching the latest Doctor Who.

I saw the 2005 or 2006 big screen version "A Sound of Thunder".  An absolute pile of dung.  Avoid it at all costs.

Perhaps the film you saw is the one that will show on Skiffy, rather than a newer remake. 
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: birdless on June 24, 2008, 01:49:32 PM
"A Sound of Thunder".  I saw a commercial indicating that it will soon be a Skiffy Channel Original Movie, last Saturday night while watching the latest Doctor Who.

I saw the 2005 or 2006 big screen version "A Sound of Thunder".  An absolute pile of dung.  Avoid it at all costs.

Perhaps the film you saw is the one that will show on Skiffy, rather than a newer remake. 
Well, if the one you saw advertised is a SciFi Channel Original Movie, then it probably isn't the big-screen version that Dar is referring to. I remember when that came out. I wanted to see it but i never got around to it. I'll have to watch for it in the free InDemand movies. lol Thanks for letting us know about the Skiffy version, though. I'll have to check it out.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: stePH on June 24, 2008, 02:51:15 PM
Well, if the one you saw advertised is a SciFi Channel Original Movie, then it probably isn't the big-screen version that Dar is referring to. I remember when that came out. I wanted to see it but i never got around to it. I'll have to watch for it in the free InDemand movies. lol Thanks for letting us know about the Skiffy version, though. I'll have to check it out.

All I know is that I saw a film version of "A Sound of Thunder" advertised on the Skiffy channel while I was watching another program.  Given the level of quality that movies on the Skiffy channel typically have, I didn't really pay it any more mind.

Besides, listening to the Snark Infested Waters podcast I've gathered that some of these Skiffy "Original" movies are actually not premiered on the channel, but were first shown elsewhere.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Chodon on June 24, 2008, 02:57:58 PM
I believe Marx referenced something about the 21st.  But that makes it even more unrealistic to me, because there is no way that ANY percentage of the population beyond 5.0x10E-13 will live on off-world space stations between now and 2099.

Yeah, just like how, in 1960 people said that there was no way men would walk on the Moon within a decade.

All it takes is political will. If that's there, there's no technical reason why we can't have dozens, or hundreds, of people in permanent orbital habitats within 50 years. Maybe tens of thousands within the century.

Right now, it doesn't seem very likely, with NASA being stripped to the bone, and the European, Japanese, Chinese and Russian space programmes not in any better shape. But if we get a head of state who pulls a Kennedy on this, you can be sure that it'll happen.
But Wintermute, if we don't take the money from NASA how are we going to fund the war on terror.  Thoughts like that make the terrorists win.

 ::)
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: wintermute on June 24, 2008, 04:12:46 PM
But Wintermute, if we don't take the money from NASA how are we going to fund the war on terror.  Thoughts like that make the terrorists win.

 ::)
Heh. NASA's full budget for a year would pay for about three hours of the Iraq war. Or about a decade of the search for bin Laden.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Swamp on June 24, 2008, 04:16:56 PM
Not a very good historical time travel story.  Mission to Dover (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=49.0), the 2007 Flash Fiction Contest winner, did a much better job of it, and it only needed 300 words or less.

By the way, just when are we going to hear that story on EP?  When are we going to hear any of these winners or other stories purchsed from the contest (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=692.0)?  I figured maybe some of the stories were waiting to appear on PC, but so far nothing.  However, I did enjoy hearing Stone Born on PC.  Or maybe Steve was waiting for everybody to forget the contest stories so that they would be new and fresh, and now that I've reminded everybody, we are going to have to wait longer.  I've ruined it again.

That's about the only thing I can complain about for EP.  More flash please.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: birdless on June 24, 2008, 06:15:12 PM
Besides, listening to the Snark Infested Waters podcast I've gathered that some of these Skiffy "Original" movies are actually not premiered on the channel, but were first shown elsewhere.
Hunh, interesting... i did not know that.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: eytanz on June 24, 2008, 06:20:01 PM
Besides, listening to the Snark Infested Waters podcast I've gathered that some of these Skiffy "Original" movies are actually not premiered on the channel, but were first shown elsewhere.
Hunh, interesting... i did not know that.

A "Sci-Fi original" movie means that it was funded by the Sci-Fi channel, not that it was premiered there.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Russell Nash on June 25, 2008, 12:39:36 PM
Complaints of the US government and the two party system have been moved here. (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1728.0)
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: doctorclark on June 25, 2008, 04:24:54 PM
Totally enjoyed the intro and outro, though. Steve's line about the domain name being taken... dinosaurs and centrists... and then of course "Think for Yourself". Those were the highlights of the story. (Ignore the fact that they were not actually in it, and it was top notch!)

Ah, but to add to the nearly-universal criticism of EP163, I have a beef with the intro!

Steve's intros usually get me curious/interested/excited for the story, and as soon as he hits his "...Story Time" riff, I'm eager for the story to begin.

However, during the Revolution Time intro, he practically invited all of these negative comments by souring the listener right from the beginning.  The way he talked about the story in the intro felt like he was apologizing for the story he was about to subject us to.

Maybe this was a bit of reverse psychology, to try to ward off some nagging feeling he had that he shouldn't have run this piece?  Yeah.  That's it.  Steve knew subconsciously how bad this was, and was trying to protect us...
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Listener on June 25, 2008, 04:42:38 PM
Totally enjoyed the intro and outro, though. Steve's line about the domain name being taken... dinosaurs and centrists... and then of course "Think for Yourself". Those were the highlights of the story. (Ignore the fact that they were not actually in it, and it was top notch!)

Ah, but to add to the nearly-universal criticism of EP163, I have a beef with the intro!

Steve's intros usually get me curious/interested/excited for the story, and as soon as he hits his "...Story Time" riff, I'm eager for the story to begin.

However, during the Revolution Time intro, he practically invited all of these negative comments by souring the listener right from the beginning.  The way he talked about the story in the intro felt like he was apologizing for the story he was about to subject us to.

Maybe this was a bit of reverse psychology, to try to ward off some nagging feeling he had that he shouldn't have run this piece?  Yeah.  That's it.  Steve knew subconsciously how bad this was, and was trying to protect us...

I was actually thinking the story would be the exact opposite... that Steve was being hyperbolic.  Alas, that was not the case.  But by the time I finished the story, I'd forgotten the intro.  *shrug*
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Void Munashii on June 25, 2008, 05:13:53 PM
Totally enjoyed the intro and outro, though. Steve's line about the domain name being taken... dinosaurs and centrists... and then of course "Think for Yourself". Those were the highlights of the story. (Ignore the fact that they were not actually in it, and it was top notch!)

Ah, but to add to the nearly-universal criticism of EP163, I have a beef with the intro!

Steve's intros usually get me curious/interested/excited for the story, and as soon as he hits his "...Story Time" riff, I'm eager for the story to begin.

However, during the Revolution Time intro, he practically invited all of these negative comments by souring the listener right from the beginning.  The way he talked about the story in the intro felt like he was apologizing for the story he was about to subject us to.

Maybe this was a bit of reverse psychology, to try to ward off some nagging feeling he had that he shouldn't have run this piece?  Yeah.  That's it.  Steve knew subconsciously how bad this was, and was trying to protect us...

  I recall most of what he warned us about was that it was a left-wing time-travel story, and for me the fact that they brought forward a socialist was mostly irrelevant. All you would have to do is change a few names, and you could have the exact same story with a right-wing revolution; they could have brought Ronald Reagan forward and it would not have changed to story for me one bit.

  My problems with the story are that it was just a "meh" kind of story; nothing much there to love or hate really. Now the day we get an intro warning that a story is "meh" is the day I reconsider listening, but I like to believe that Steve would never purchase a story that he considered to be "meh" (which rules my stuff right out).
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Rain on June 25, 2008, 05:54:15 PM
I agree with everyone else and give this story a big Meh
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: wherethewild on June 25, 2008, 09:17:22 PM
I'm now about 4 months behind in my EscapePod listening and I REALLY wish I hadn't jumped back into it with this one. I don't have the excitement for the others now and that's a shame.

Is that really the best of what is being submitted? Did we use up a decade's worth of quality short scifi already and good new stuff just isn't being produced fast enough?
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Ocicat on June 25, 2008, 10:42:13 PM
Is that really the best of what is being submitted? Did we use up a decade's worth of quality short scifi already and good new stuff just isn't being produced fast enough?

I do wonder - especially since in the two intros before this, Steve said that they were stories he had just heard at a convention the week before.  Doesn't make it sound like there are stories in the backlog that he's burning to run...
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: contra on June 26, 2008, 09:30:41 PM
I would pretty much mirror everyone else here.

I didn't dislike it... but it didn't really make an impact

Interesting idea, interesting world to play about it, but in hte end something just did not work.  I liked the writing itself... I liked how it jumped about.

However the time travel conclusion was a little strange.  I almost would have prefered Marx knowing why it failed, trying to stop it happening like that, and causing that to happen like that anyway.

Marx didn't impact the story at all.  He could have been replaced with anyone from history as other people say.  For the left or right.  It doesn't matter. It didn't matter to the story.

I think if Marx had actually been a human being in the story it could have helped.  Marx knew all those million of people would die... and because he knew how it would turn out, let them die? 
If we could go back and stop the black death, wouldn't you at least try.  If you knew what you were the one that started it, wouldn't you go back and stop yourself doing it.

Ok.  Maybe I don't know enough about Marx to know if he would care about millions of people.  Someone like Jefferson though would have worked and I wouldn't have questioned it as much... he was for a good revolution to keep the government fresh.  I don't know.  The lack of Marx having am impact other than figurehead destroyed my suspension of disbelief that Marx was brought forward in time... and I couldn't get back into the story...


Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Void Munashii on June 27, 2008, 12:46:38 AM
I think if Marx had actually been a human being in the story it could have helped.  Marx knew all those million of people would die... and because he knew how it would turn out, let them die? 


  Maybe he knew they had to die for the next revolution to work? Maybe support for the successful revolution was based largely on the massacres that occured in the failed one.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Windup on June 27, 2008, 02:25:03 AM

I don't know why it took me this long to come up with it, but why would a government with a time machine need to make any military response to an attempted revolution at all?  You ID one or more leaders, send agents back in time, join their cells, and disrupt their plans as soon as they amount to anything. 

The story really should have ended with the members of the time machine penetration cell being killed by one of their own members as soon as they entered the control room. 

<<scene: Chrono control room - dead bodies on floor - Morgan sits on a table, smoking - Man in Suit enters>>

"Nice job. What were they after?"

"Not what, who."

"Who?"

"Karl Marx, if you can believe it."

"Marx?!?  Good God, we must be getting weak, if that old fraud was a threat."

<<Morgan shoots the Man in Suit, killing him instantly.>>

"Weak, and sloppy.  Meanwhile, me and 6,000 doses of antibiotics are due for a relaxing and profitable little break in pre-industrial Europe..."
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: eytanz on June 27, 2008, 07:42:24 AM

I don't know why it took me this long to come up with it, but why would a government with a time machine need to make any military response to an attempted revolution at all?  You ID one or more leaders, send agents back in time, join their cells, and disrupt their plans as soon as they amount to anything. 

Actually, that seems to be one of the few plot issues that is sort of semi-addressed; the time machine doesn't seem capable of sending people to the past, only extracting them.

That said, a slight change to the plan makes all the difference - ID one of the leaders, say Morgan, and extract her as a child. Re-indoctrinate her so that she's a double-agent, wait for her to boomerang back to the past, and then have her betray her cell at the right moment. If it doesn't work, just repeat with a different cell member.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: davekel on June 27, 2008, 10:13:45 AM
well it filled in the 30 minute drive to work.....
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: lieffeil on June 27, 2008, 06:35:04 PM

I don't know why it took me this long to come up with it, but why would a government with a time machine need to make any military response to an attempted revolution at all?  You ID one or more leaders, send agents back in time, join their cells, and disrupt their plans as soon as they amount to anything. 

...And then you get Arnold Schwarzenegger to play a cyborg...
:)
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: deflective on June 27, 2008, 07:59:33 PM
this episode has spawned more discussion in five days than any other escape pod has total (including (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1727.0l) split (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1722.0) threads (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1728.0)). it's also the worst reviewed story.

human nature is a funny thing.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Roney on June 27, 2008, 09:41:09 PM
This story was totally implausible.  Give a real far-left group access to a time machine and three things would happen within half an hour:

Seriously, though, I rather liked elements of it.  CammoBlammo said several things I agree with, including:

The real kick for me was at the end when the cell all went on to different lives. Some died, some continued the revolution, and some got on with life while staying true to their cause.

The way that this note rang true for me actually made up for a lot of the other implausibility.  In real life the realization that your youthful ideals can't be brought about just by wanting it hard enough tends to creep up gradually: the story used the techniques of SF to force it on the group in a rush (through the words of their idol who knew what the future held).  Good, dramatic, short story stuff, with very human results.

Quote
Personally, if I had a guarantee that the revolution would succeed in 800 years I wouldn't bother fighting. I wouldn't even bother when the time came. Why risk everything for a cause that cannot lose?

That's one fascinating question.  The other is, what good is a revolution in 800 years for the next 30 generations of oppressed workers?  Is it morally right to give up the struggle just because you know you can't win yet?  As for Marx, is he really content to let the seeds of the destruction of capitalism take so long to grow?

Quote
Just on that, somebody complained that there was no indication about what the cell were fighting against. There was one clue --- it was a government that was prepared to nuke their own nation in order to win. If my nation were to consider that a real option, I'd probably think about a revolution too.

I thought there were several hints that the government they were fighting was more oppressive than the US today.  One was the very existence of active revolutionary communist cells in the country, and not just a few: enough to mount a serious revolution.  That's a fictional setting, not careless implausibility.  I'd have liked to know more, though.

There did seem to be a lot of partially developed ideas -- the characters, particularly; the government; the history of socialist movements in this world; the presence of Marx; the politics of the time machine -- and I could imagine it being much more effective if some of these were fleshed out.  It struck me as a story released a draft or two too early.

But it was very far from being the worst Escape Pod.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: ajames on June 28, 2008, 12:25:30 AM
this episode has spawned more discussion in five days than any other escape pod has total (including (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1727.0l) split (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1722.0) threads (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1728.0)). it's also the worst reviewed story.

human nature is a funny thing.

What's even more interesting, at least to me, is that although a few people expressed very negative reactions and there certainly was a negative tone to most reviews, by far the most common review was "meh".

So for a group of people who don't think this story has much going for it one way or another, we sure have a lot to say about it.

But it was very far from being the worst Escape Pod.

Depends on how you define "worst". For me this story was like eating air, and every other story on Escapepod has at least given me something to chew on, even if I didn't particularly like it.

Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Russell Nash on June 28, 2008, 04:10:25 PM
this episode has spawned more discussion in five days than any other escape pod has total (including (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1727.0l) split (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1722.0) threads (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1728.0)). it's also the worst reviewed story.

human nature is a funny thing.

Deflective,

I don't get your math.  Just by sorting the episode threads by replies I get 11 stories with more responses not including split threads.

Just making a guess about split threads I'd say there are another 7 with more replies.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: eytanz on June 29, 2008, 04:33:51 AM
this episode has spawned more discussion in five days than any other escape pod has total (including (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1727.0l) split (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1722.0) threads (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1728.0)). it's also the worst reviewed story.

human nature is a funny thing.

What's even more interesting, at least to me, is that although a few people expressed very negative reactions and there certainly was a negative tone to most reviews, by far the most common review was "meh".

So for a group of people who don't think this story has much going for it one way or another, we sure have a lot to say about it.


Hey, just because a story failed, doesn't mean it didn't fail in an interesting way.

I think this is a mediocre story, but an interesting object lesson of quite a few traps one can fall into while writing about politics. In this case, the trap being that of writing a story about ideologists without including their actual ideology, either because (as I assume is the case here) the ideology is really obvious to the author and he's actually writing directly to the crowd that share his assumptions rather to a more general audience, or perhaps because the author never had any ideology and was just using politics as a narrative device.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Tango Alpha Delta on June 30, 2008, 12:01:15 AM
When I listen to these stories, I don't think "good" or "bad".  Instead, I think, "I could top that."  (Or not.)

I think I could top this one.  (But that's already been done twice... once in thread, and once with a link.)

So, while I can't muster the enthusiasm he had for it, I will echo the positive points that CammoBlammo mentioned, and offer the author an apology for not being blown away by his ideas.

As most of you might already know, I think we are already in the midst of an extremely interesting and non-violent revolution (http://tadshappyfuntime.blogspot.com/2008/03/we-now-join-revolution-already-in.html).  And it doesn't NEED a figurehead... unless you count Steve.  ;)  So from my point of view, the story's greatest weakness is assuming that any cause needs a bunch of idiots with weapons to run around and fight for it.  In reality, they'd be on Facebook or MySpace recruiting like-minded followers and raising money and awareness through their websites, email, and podcasts.

What's important: is everyone getting food/water/shelter?  No... why not?  Will fighting get it for them?  No... so what would Marx accomplish?  Fuck him... give me the web.

And THAT is why I give this story a "meh"... because I think the world is finally outgrowing silly revolutionaries.

(I just hope that big crazy beards never go out of fashion.)
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: stePH on June 30, 2008, 12:06:53 AM
When I listen to these stories, I don't think "good" or "bad".  Instead, I think, "I could top that."  (Or not.)

I think I could top this one.  (But that's already been done twice... once in thread, and once with a link.)

So, while I can't muster the enthusiasm he had for it, I will echo the positive points that CammoBlammo mentioned, and offer the author an apology for not being blown away by his ideas.

As most of you might already know, I think we are already in the midst of an extremely interesting and non-violent revolution (http://tadshappyfuntime.blogspot.com/2008/03/we-now-join-revolution-already-in.html). 

One thing that I believe has been mentioned before:

Quote
Exhibit A: Escape Pod, a science fiction short story podcast edited by Steve Eley, who started out with a simple idea: offer writers $100 dollars for stories, which he would read and post as a weekly mp3 on his podcast feed. The audience was asked for whatever donations they felt appropriate, which Steve uses to pay the authors. After only two years, as he explained in his third Escape Pod Metacast, Escape Pod is the 2 market for short science fiction stories.

$100 is the current going rate for a story, but it was originally much lower.  Only the generosity of donators to the show allowed Steve to gradually raise the amount he pays authors.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Tango Alpha Delta on June 30, 2008, 12:45:44 AM
One thing that I believe has been mentioned before:

Quote
Exhibit A: Escape Pod, a science fiction short story podcast edited by Steve Eley, who started out with a simple idea: offer writers $100 dollars for stories, which he would read and post as a weekly mp3 on his podcast feed. The audience was asked for whatever donations they felt appropriate, which Steve uses to pay the authors. After only two years, as he explained in his third Escape Pod Metacast, Escape Pod is the 2 market for short science fiction stories.

$100 is the current going rate for a story, but it was originally much lower.  Only the generosity of donators to the show allowed Steve to gradually raise the amount he pays authors.


While I normally hate being caught in a factual error, that actually proves the point even more (the point that this is a viable business model, I mean).  And while I think of this as Steve's dream/triumph, it's a testament to all of us in the Escape Artists community that it is succeeding so, um, successfully.

Just so I can fix my blog, does anyone here recall the original EP story rate?
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Russell Nash on June 30, 2008, 10:49:12 AM
One thing that I believe has been mentioned before:

Quote
Exhibit A: Escape Pod, a science fiction short story podcast edited by Steve Eley, who started out with a simple idea: offer writers $100 dollars for stories, which he would read and post as a weekly mp3 on his podcast feed. The audience was asked for whatever donations they felt appropriate, which Steve uses to pay the authors. After only two years, as he explained in his third Escape Pod Metacast, Escape Pod is the 2 market for short science fiction stories.

$100 is the current going rate for a story, but it was originally much lower.  Only the generosity of donators to the show allowed Steve to gradually raise the amount he pays authors.


While I normally hate being caught in a factual error, that actually proves the point even more (the point that this is a viable business model, I mean).  And while I think of this as Steve's dream/triumph, it's a testament to all of us in the Escape Artists community that it is succeeding so, um, successfully.

Just so I can fix my blog, does anyone here recall the original EP story rate?

When I started listening it was at $50 and Steve said that was an increase.  Maybe $25 was the original.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: scottjanssens on June 30, 2008, 03:30:37 PM
$20 was the original payment for a story.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: deflective on June 30, 2008, 11:30:58 PM
this episode has spawned more discussion in five days than any other escape pod has total (including (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1727.0l) split (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1722.0) threads (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1728.0)). it's also the worst reviewed story.

human nature is a funny thing.
I don't get your math.  Just by sorting the episode threads by replies I get 11 stories with more responses not including split threads.

Just making a guess about split threads I'd say there are another 7 with more replies.

i'm not sure what you're looking for here Russell.

i specifically said this included split threads, you replied by saying: if you don't include split threads you're wrong. the split threads are linked from my original post, in the time that it took you to post your comment you could have checked the post counts and had your answer. instead you just assumed that i was wrong.

*shrug* what do you want me to say?
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Russell Nash on July 01, 2008, 09:15:46 AM
this episode has spawned more discussion in five days than any other escape pod has total (including (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1727.0l) split (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1722.0) threads (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1728.0)). it's also the worst reviewed story.

human nature is a funny thing.
I don't get your math.  Just by sorting the episode threads by replies I get 11 stories with more responses not including split threads.

Just making a guess about split threads I'd say there are another 7 with more replies.

i'm not sure what you're looking for here Russell.

i specifically said this included split threads, you replied by saying: if you don't include split threads you're wrong. the split threads are linked from my original post, in the time that it took you to post your comment you could have checked the post counts and had your answer. instead you just assumed that i was wrong.

*shrug* what do you want me to say?

My point was that unless you set up a spreadsheet and added every split thread, you don't know.  There are many threads split from Eps that aren't credited back including some of the largest and ugliest threads in the history of these forums.  Every religious/economical/sexist/creationist thread was spawned by an episode thread. 

If you go only by the episode thread, my math holds.  If you try to add in every other thread, my math holds more.  Many of the spawned threads are longer than this entire thread and its daughter threads.

My original post was written in haste, but it holds.  It is, however, impressive how much discussion has been spawned by a story that almost nobody liked.  WHich I think was your original point. 
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: deflective on July 01, 2008, 11:20:04 AM
If you go only by the episode thread, my math holds.  If you try to add in every other thread, my math holds more.

since the math you put forward is 'i think i'm right,' i wont argue.

Quote from: Russell Nash
It is, however, impressive how much discussion has been spawned by a story that almost nobody liked.  Which I think was your original point. 

aye, the funny nature of humans.

another aspect of that nature is an instinctive need to dispute absolute statements. after my original post i half expected people would start suggesting that other episodes are worse (since it's easy to mix up an assertion that something is worst reviewed with the assertion that it is the worst) but you took me by surprise by splitting hairs on the possibility that it spawned the most discussion.

i fully admit that i may be wrong, i didn't exhaust every case, but contradicting a non-essential position with nothing more than a feeling is human nature at its bloody minded best.

a nature that i now continue in grand tradition with an unnecessary escalation.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Chodon on July 01, 2008, 11:29:06 AM
I love it when people argue over facts...that's why the Guinness book of world records was invented.  Maybe we need an "Escape Artists Forums Book Of World Records".   ;D
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Russell Nash on July 01, 2008, 02:21:46 PM
If you go only by the episode thread, my math holds.  If you try to add in every other thread, my math holds more.

since the math you put forward is 'i think i'm right,' i wont argue.

Quote from: Russell Nash
It is, however, impressive how much discussion has been spawned by a story that almost nobody liked.  Which I think was your original point. 

aye, the funny nature of humans.

another aspect of that nature is an instinctive need to dispute absolute statements. after my original post i half expected people would start suggesting that other episodes are worse (since it's easy to mix up an assertion that something is worst reviewed with the assertion that it is the worst) but you took me by surprise by splitting hairs on the possibility that it spawned the most discussion.

i fully admit that i may be wrong, i didn't exhaust every case, but contradicting a non-essential position with nothing more than a feeling is human nature at its bloody minded best.

a nature that i now continue in grand tradition with an unnecessary escalation.

I don't argue over the quality of the stories, but I'll cause trouble about numbers all day long.  When I read your original statement, the horrible, long arguments we had last year came to mind.  They were 7 and 8 pages long with people trading 1000-3000 word attacks.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Tango Alpha Delta on July 02, 2008, 01:33:00 AM
$20 was the original payment for a story.

Thanks, fellas!  Duly updated.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Animite on July 03, 2008, 07:18:21 PM
To me, this episode was a story comprised of ideals with little or no ideology to support it.

A story about politics of any kind needs a kind of political ideology, either imagined or unimagined, to support it. Since the premise of the story involved snatching Karl Marx back from the 19th century, I was half expecting there to be some kind of speech or dialog between characters that would shed some light on why this revolution was occurring. Instead of a philosophical banner to rally under, we get an almost dues ex machina flow of events which rushes from one location to another with no reason other than the "revolution" whose motives end up being more mysterious than their all knowing leader.

This is what makes the story a mesh of ideals. The characters, themes, and even the pacing of the story are forced and a little too removed from the real world. It would be amusing if the author intentionally meant this story to unfold like the propaganda techniques used in the heyday of socialism with all of the characters looming large behind undefinable brown and red block backdrops looking with unflinching courage into the ether of tomorrow. 

Although the theme of revolution is timeless, giving it a socialist twist has been done and failed too many times in the real world to give it credibility in a fictionalized setting.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: wakela on July 11, 2008, 01:15:22 AM

I don't know why it took me this long to come up with it, but why would a government with a time machine need to make any military response to an attempted revolution at all?  You ID one or more leaders, send agents back in time, join their cells, and disrupt their plans as soon as they amount to anything. 

Actually, that seems to be one of the few plot issues that is sort of semi-addressed; the time machine doesn't seem capable of sending people to the past, only extracting them.

That said, a slight change to the plan makes all the difference - ID one of the leaders, say Morgan, and extract her as a child. Re-indoctrinate her so that she's a double-agent, wait for her to boomerang back to the past, and then have her betray her cell at the right moment. If it doesn't work, just repeat with a different cell member.
Since everything they were doing was just too easy, that's exactly what I thought had happened.  One of their buddies just happened on a secret corridor that leads to the most secure facility in the United States?  And then they get in and out without any resistance?
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Planish on July 12, 2008, 04:32:48 AM
Where's my pitchfork and/or torch? I'm siding with the mob on this one. Not the worst, but it did not engage me at all.

I don't mind leftist time-travelling stories, per se, but I do dislike non-Daikaiju music at the end, no matter how relevant it may be to the story. That was slt in the wound.

Personally, I love time travel stories.  I love "The Time Machine," Connie Willis' "Doomsday Book" and "To Say Nothing of the Dog" and that Ray Bradbury story where the tourist go back to prehistoric times to hunt dinosaurs but one kills something that wasn't supposed to die and when they get back, all the signs are misspelled.  My favorite Star Trek episodes are the time travel ones.  I love Dr. Who.  And, one of my favorite shows when I was a kid was "The Time Tunnel."   I'm a time travel geek.
I like time travel stories too, but they're very rarely done "right". I keep reading them the way Charlie Brown keeps trying to kick the football that Lucy whips away at the last minute. I keep hoping "maybe this time...".
It does work sometimes (see Robert L Forward's Timemaster), but it's pretty rare.

I think one of the biggest reasons that ST: Enterprise lost its audience was because of the time travel business. A pity, because I liked the crew (except for Archer). ST:Voyager had some time travel episodes too, but at least they didn't spin them out into multi-season story arcs.

I enjoyed that Bradbury dinosaur hunter story you referred to, but only because it was the first time I had ever read anything like it. I was very young at the time.

If the time travel is incidental and counter-balanced by much humour or adventure (eg. Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure, Back to the Future) then all is forgiven. See "Lampshade Hanging" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LampshadeHanging).

I'm worried I'm going to lose all my credibility for saying this, but...

I REALLY LIKED THIS ONE!!!!

Sorry, I had to say it. In fact, it's one of my favourite EPs yet. Up there with Friction.
Bartender ... give me whatever he's having.
(sorry)
But seriously, *applause* for being willing to express a contrary opinion.

in case people haven't seen it yet, why not Hitler (http://www.abyssandapex.com/200710-wikihistory.html)?
It is to laugh.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: CammoBlammo on July 12, 2008, 11:23:58 AM
I'm worried I'm going to lose all my credibility for saying this, but...

I REALLY LIKED THIS ONE!!!!

Sorry, I had to say it. In fact, it's one of my favourite EPs yet. Up there with Friction.
Bartender ... give me whatever he's having.
(sorry)
But seriously, *applause* for being willing to express a contrary opinion.


You know, I haven't drunk alcohol for going on twenty years now. Maybe I need to start...
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Schreiber on July 18, 2008, 09:21:04 PM
You know, I've got an idea for a story.  How about freedom fighters from the same universe retrieve Cory Doctorow to lead the charge against oppressive copyright laws?  He'll be a little baffled by the red capes and hot air balloons his apostles all seem to be wearing, but once he gets back to his own time he'll end up confiding in a young Randall Munroe.  Á la Captain Picard, Mark Twain, and A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court.
Title: Re: EP163: Revolution Time
Post by: Unblinking on August 19, 2010, 05:56:51 PM
I'm with most that I didn't like this one.  I did love the Ragtime post explaining the meeting with his future self.  :)

The main reasons I didn't like it:
1.  Despite being supposedly politically motivated, we never really get a feel for why they are rebelling, what Marx actually adds to their equation or anything.  For a politically based story it had almost no substantial political content.
2.  No one I cared about in the slightest.
3.  The story begins with some schmucks accidentally finding an unguarded not-particularly-secret entrance in the government controlled facility housing the most powerful invention of all time.  Why weren't there alarms?  Why didn't they build their facility more securely?  Where are the armed guards?  If they were going to leave the machine in an unguarded warehouse couldn't they at least remove some vital component?  (such as removing sparkplugs from a car, or the flux capacitor from the Delorean).