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Escape Pod => Episode Comments => Topic started by: Russell Nash on May 29, 2009, 06:02:08 AM

Title: EP201: Harry The Crow
Post by: Russell Nash on May 29, 2009, 06:02:08 AM
EP201: Harry The Crow (http://escapepod.org/2009/05/29/episode-201-harry-the-crow/)

Editors Note: As you may have noticed, episode 201 is appearing before Episode 200.  We’re still working out the kinks of an agreement with the mysterious agent forces mentioned in an earlier update, but we should have that episode for you soon, and we think it’ll be worth the wait.  Rather than keep you waiting any longer, we’re bringing you 201 out of sequence.

By John Kratman (http://johnkratman.com/).
Read by Norm Sherman (of Drabblecast (http://web.mac.com/normsherman/Site/Podcast/Podcast.html)).
First appeared in Aeon Speculative Fiction.

“A construct is no Crow!” Tommy shouted, the ridiculous war bonnet he’d worn to my father’s funeral slipping off his head. He pushed it back with an angry swipe of his hand, glaring at the gathered members of the tribe, daring them to laugh.

“Harry can do everything a man can do,” I said. There were many people in the lodge that I recognized, but there were many more, ghosts of my past, who should have been there and were not. “He can hunt, write poetry, sing a song. He can think and he can feel. I taught him how to shoot and how to track, how to read and how to write. No matter that he sprang from my brain instead of my manhood. He is my son, the only one this old man will ever have. He is a Crow.”

“What can a machine know of tradition and honor?” Tommy asked, his lined face veiled in the shadows cast by the fire. He drew a pipe from his pocket and packed it with angry jabs of his age-spotted hand.


Rated R. contains violence, strong language, and counting coup.


(http://escapepod.org/wp-images/podcast-mini4.gif)
Listen to this week’s Escape Pod! (http://media.rawvoice.com/escapepod/media.libsyn.com/media/escapepod/EP201_HarryTheCrow.mp3)
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: Russell Nash on May 29, 2009, 06:04:45 AM
Before you comment about episode 200, read the editor's note in the first post.
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: alllie on May 29, 2009, 11:32:36 AM
Space-time distortion?
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: Talia on May 29, 2009, 12:15:14 PM
I havent listened yet, I just wanted to say "yaaaaay" for Norm Sherman. :) One of my favorite readers of all time, and its an absolute delight to see him here on EP.
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: Russell Nash on May 29, 2009, 12:49:02 PM
This was a lot of fun. 

I loved the old guy saying he got tapped with a stick about three times a month.
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: Rail16 on May 29, 2009, 02:17:39 PM
very nice story.

at first i was worried that it would be an indians in space sort of thing, but i really enjoyed the story.

even though it was the 'future' and stuff, john kratman did a great job of weaving that with the traditions of the crow people he was working to represent to the reader.

i would like to read/hear more stories about harry the crow now that he is a chief of his tribe.  would be cool to see where things go after this story ended.
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: deflective on May 29, 2009, 09:36:22 PM
i liked the story, a young man's trials for acceptance into a tribe was a good mirror for our inevitable confrontation with artificial intelligence.  i'm not really sure what to make of goatkeeper's claim of hirsute arms before a story about a robot named Harry.  maybe he's a speed swimmer?

the story would have worked a lot better for me if i wasn't already worn out on the theme.  the last three stories plus a couple of the hugo nominees, it all adds up to something like a podcastle theme month and i prefer more variety.
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: Russell Nash on May 30, 2009, 08:19:00 AM
Deflective,  this one was so much lighter and so much more fun than the others, that I didn't even think about it having the same theme.  It just cam eat it from such a different angle.
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: alllie on May 30, 2009, 08:25:36 PM
I enjoyed the story but I didn't feel it was really science fiction except in its trapping because you could have changed Harry from a mechanical into a human without changing the story in any way. Exactly the same things would have happened and Harry would have behaved the same.
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: beville on May 30, 2009, 08:38:09 PM
I love Norm
I love Norm
I Love Norm

I loved the mix of space and tradition as well.  BTW, while I understand the goal of a "blockbuster" ep 200, I feel this was also good enough to represent Escape Pod 200 - good mix of future, thought and FUN.
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: deflective on May 31, 2009, 02:40:18 AM
Deflective,  this one was so much lighter and so much more fun than the others, that I didn't even think about it having the same theme.  It just came at it from such a different angle.

aye, this is much more upbeat (except for the sad state of the sioux, maybe it was just the local band that had dissipated?)

i understand that editors from the other ea podcasts have been pitching in to help out escape pod and it's been interesting to see the effects of those different influences.  we've seen the reader take a larger role with both their performance & effects; this intense concentration on a single theme feels a lot like podcastle.

all of this might just be a short term change (i'm still very interested to see how escape pod will settle) this is just an early request not to go with intentional themes since somebody that finds a theme unappealing has their whole month shot.  but, if themes are the way things are going, a high powered Alasdair5000 outro (maybe episode?) comparing & contrasting would go a long way to make it interesting.  the intentional reintroduction of the neanderthals vs the accidental infestation of elvii, biological vs mechanical constructs, christian religion vs crow spiritualism, comparison to Frankenstein & older myths.  there's no lack of material.
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: Talia on May 31, 2009, 03:38:49 AM
An interesting story. I too enjoyed the mix of culture and technology. Native American rituals + sentient robots is not a concept I ever would have considered. :)

I really, really, really dig the hubble rap. Its even better the second time. If Carl Sagan were still alive, he would totally blast it while cruising in his lowrider, trying to pick up chicks. ("Hay baby, stick with me and you'll see STARS!")
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: Doom xombie on May 31, 2009, 10:12:00 AM
As a member of three affiliated tribes I felt this lice was strange. First off, right now the crow elect their rep/cheif and they have an elected council. The writer is also very optimistic in terms of culture government. The idea that the government would give back that land is something most Indians wouldn't even bother to dream of. That Indian affairs would even become that important is amazing. In short I didn't find it very happen-able(?), something that I rather enjoy in science fiction when it's there.
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: MacArthurBug on May 31, 2009, 03:32:49 PM
firstly: YAaaay! Norm!
secondly: really enjoyed this. The robot=human equation has been done many times but seeing it in the robot=crow warrior way made it new and fresh. I, too, enjoyed the old guy talking about getting hit with a stick three times in the last month. It made me sad a bit too: what'll happen when this geezer finaly bites it?
Thirdly: NORM! yeeeeaaay!
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: eytanz on May 31, 2009, 04:49:25 PM
As a member of three affiliated tribes I felt this lice was strange. First off, right now the crow elect their rep/cheif and they have an elected council. The writer is also very optimistic in terms of culture government. The idea that the government would give back that land is something most Indians wouldn't even bother to dream of. That Indian affairs would even become that important is amazing. In short I didn't find it very happen-able(?), something that I rather enjoy in science fiction when it's there.


The feeling I got was that this was happening in a future where interstellar colonisation meant that most people no longer live on Earth, and perhaps other worlds are richer in resources, or whatever, so Earth became occupied mostly by people with strong ties to the past. In such an environment, it'd be easier (though I admit, still unlikely) to imagine that Indians get some of their old lands back.
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: Doom xombie on June 01, 2009, 01:42:02 AM
I love the way that the above explained it! :) Thank you for showing me a different way to look at it

Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: Russell Nash on June 01, 2009, 09:56:15 AM
I got the idea that the author was intrigued by the traditions and wondered what would happen if a robot was put into that world.  Since the robots don't exist yet and that world doesn't exist anymore, he put it off into an alternate reality future.  Mostly it's just a fun little thought experiment.
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: Kaa on June 01, 2009, 04:55:04 PM
Does anyone know the name and artist of the song at the end? I'm curious.
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: Doom xombie on June 01, 2009, 05:12:45 PM
Pimp my Satellite by Norm Sherman. :)
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: Listener on June 02, 2009, 12:14:53 PM
at first i was worried that it would be an indians in space sort of thing, but i really enjoyed the story.

Why would that be so bad?

***

A very enjoyable story to listen to, though not one I would listen to or read again -- kind of like "Armageddon" or "X-3: X-Men United", which I enjoyed at the time but don't feel any compunction to watch again. Great characterizations, and I too liked the old Sioux man playing Parcheesi.

The reading was great too. Is it just me, or does Norm Sherman sound a hell of a lot like Todd Barry? (http://songza.com/~esrika)
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: Doom xombie on June 03, 2009, 05:57:31 AM
Hey russel i realize this was not meant to offend but our world, as a whole, still exists. We still have Pow Wows and sundances although the latter is not very well publicized, nor should it be. It kind of makes me sad to think that poeple think our world has faded...  :'( :'(
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: Russell Nash on June 03, 2009, 08:33:45 AM
xombie,  I meant it more in the way you stated it before.  The political system is different.  This story wouldn't have worked in the system you explained.  It works only in a system where the warrior most first prove himself.  Sorry about the choice of words.
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: Doom xombie on June 03, 2009, 08:36:19 AM
Its alright  :) thank you for the clarification.
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: goatkeeper on June 03, 2009, 05:50:23 PM
I loved the old guy saying he got tapped with a stick about three times a month.
My favorite coup also.   ;D

i'm not really sure what to make of goatkeeper's claim of hirsute arms before a story about a robot named Harry.  maybe he's a speed swimmer?
You never miss a thing deflective.  It's true, I am Michael Phelps.  Anybody wanna buy some super-human Olypmic Gold sperm?

Hey russel i realize this was not meant to offend but our world, as a whole, still exists. We still have Pow Wows and sundances although the latter is not very well publicized, nor should it be. It kind of makes me sad to think that poeple think our world has faded...  :'( :'(

If "fading" is bad, a little publicity would be a good thing wouldn't it?  I for one would be interested to know more about the modern expression of NA traditions.
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: deflective on June 03, 2009, 06:22:44 PM
Anybody wanna buy some super-human Olypmic Gold sperm?

not worth it.  sure, speed swimmer sperm surges swiftly but it just goes in circles.
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: Doom xombie on June 03, 2009, 07:05:50 PM
Let my clarify, I don't think that Sun Dances nor a few other dances should EVER be recorded. I'm more or less think its great when pow wows and stomp dances be broadcast because those dances are more social than spiritual. Oh and is broadcasted a word? Cause my spell checker tells me its not....

Thanks talia!
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: Talia on June 03, 2009, 07:09:21 PM
I think just "broadcast" would work and should be considered a word :)
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: Zathras on June 08, 2009, 08:52:20 PM
I enjoyed the story.  I'm really glad I gave it a 2nd chance.  Norm's reading doesn't suit me, and I almost skipped this one.

I strongly dislike Todd Barry, so that's probably a good indication of my opinion of Norm.  Sorry.  His narration was good, but having him do the intro, outro and the story was too much for me.  Again, I stand in my sparsely populated corner of the forums.  At least I have lots of room to wave my arms, jump up and down and scream my lungs out without crashing into anyone.   :P

There is an internet broadcast, Tribe of Nations or something like that.  I've seen the billboard for it in Albuquerque, I'll have to look when I get home.
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: BethPeters on June 09, 2009, 04:39:15 AM
Yay Norm!  This occasional guest host thing really does make for fun surprises.
I actually have met Norm.  To me, the Todd Barry comparison is as off as comparing him to Jeff Foxworthy.  Just don't get it.
  Like Zorag though, I thought his narration was good, but unlike Zorag his narration DID suit me... ???

I thought the story was OK, not outstanding.  Someone earlier posted that Harry's character wasn't consistent with the action he took at the end.  Unless we are supposed to believe "being human" is just doing evil things like committing murder.  Harry's decisive "coming of age" moment/decision was passed up for a twist ending, and the author did such a good job of creating a world that this ending left me saying "whatever, Harry wouldn't have done that." 

Also, just a question:  The city-slicker died because he didn't have shoes to walk home with (indirect killing)?  Or did Harry actually kill him?  Why didn't Harry just leave the shoes in the tree?  His Dad was passed out, why take them home and then throw them away?
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: Zathras on June 09, 2009, 05:11:13 AM
I liked Norm's narration of the story, just to clarify.  I think the taking of the boots was a Crow moment.
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: BethPeters on June 09, 2009, 06:45:59 AM
  I think the taking of the boots was a Crow moment.

What do you mean?  Like his own personal right of passage?
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: Zathras on June 09, 2009, 02:09:57 PM
I am not too familiar with Crow traditions, so if I say something incorrect, I'm sorry.

I thought of it as a "Crow thing" because... I'm having problems putting it in words.  I'm sure I'm going to mess this up.  Some of the terms I'd throw in to explain this would be territorial, defending your home, over reacting, male ego, warrior spirit, etc.  I'm sure someone else can explain it in 3 words, and I will be left smacking myself upside the head again.
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: Rail16 on June 09, 2009, 04:02:31 PM
at first i was worried that it would be an indians in space sort of thing, but i really enjoyed the story.

Why would that be so bad?
)
just hearing the idea reminds me of an 80's cartoon pitch:

We've got this great idea for a show that the kids will just Love!  think Indians In Space meets Thundercats.  But instead of cats they'd all be Indians that can change into their spirit animals to save other people.  And teach lessons of tolerance at the end of each episode.

Also their space ships would be in the shape of various spirit animals.  and of course their star-base would be a giant, wait for it, teepee!!

Maybe we could model it after Silverhawks a bit too.

Think of the possibilities!!!


and of course there'd be a really cheesy theme song and horrible toy tie-ins.
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: Talia on June 09, 2009, 05:01:23 PM
sure, but imagine if someone could take that idea and actually make it work and not be cheesy. That would be rad.
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: deflective on June 09, 2009, 05:05:52 PM
I think the taking of the boots was a Crow moment.

i thought you were talking about the classic 90's revenant movie the crow (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L64hooJGitY), that totally worked.
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: Lar on June 12, 2009, 05:13:11 PM
  I think the taking of the boots was a Crow moment.

What do you mean?  Like his own personal right of passage?

I don't know what the original poster meant, but from my perspective, you don't really grow up until you make a decision that contradicts the will of your parents.  When he took this action against the desire of his father, he became his own man.  Because of this, I think the part with the shoes was essential to the story.

My 2 cents.

I really dug this episode, BTW.  All of it, story content, Norm's narration, the closing song - the entire package.  Top notch!
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: Wilson Fowlie on June 13, 2009, 04:17:33 AM
I think the reading of this story really made it for me.  If it had been a less polished performance, I don't think I would have cared about the story much.  I'm not sure how much I did, as it is, but I kept listening avidly right to the end because the reading was so darned entertaining and compelling.  An excellent example to learn from.
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: Doom xombie on June 15, 2009, 04:35:06 AM
I think you mean it was a ceremonial moment and perhaps shouldn't be displayed in this way? I don't know what you meant, but I do know a little about crow traditions given that they were originally part of the hidatsas. Really thats one of the reasons I don't like the story, I may be contradicting precious statements, but i don't think ceremonies of spiritual nature should be displayed. I found it in.... strange taste to put a robot in this situation. I do like the way a previous poster explained it but I still don't like the story itself. Oh and if im being to sensitive IYO then please mention it if you read this.
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: Russell Nash on June 15, 2009, 07:05:58 AM
Oh and if im being to sensitive IYO then please mention it if you read this.

I, for one, I'm glad to have such a different viewpoint from my own.  I can't really disagree or agree with your statement.  I just try to absorb it.
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: H. Bergeron on June 20, 2009, 08:34:30 AM
I found it in.... strange taste to put a robot in this situation.

I was just looking at this one sentence of the post, and - correct me if I'm wrong, here, but - isn't that kind of the idea of this story?  That the robot, despite being a robot, is still a sentient being that's capable of thinking like and feeling like a human being to such an extent that it's important to integrate them into all aspects of the society rather than treating them like second-class citizens?

If we avoided everything that was "in strange taste", we'd have a much smaller genre.
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: Planish on July 06, 2009, 06:09:05 AM
I was just looking at this one sentence of the post, and - correct me if I'm wrong, here, but - isn't that kind of the idea of this story?  That the robot, despite being a robot, is still a sentient being that's capable of thinking like and feeling like a human being to such an extent that it's important to integrate them into all aspects of the society rather than treating them like second-class citizens?
And also the point of meeeellions of other robot stories, which is probably why I never bothered to finish listening to it.

Data: "If you prick me, do I not ... leak?"
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: daryy on July 11, 2009, 12:13:40 PM
  I meant it more in the way you stated it before.  The political system is different.  This story wouldn't have worked in the system you explained.
Title: Re: Episode 201: Harry The Crow
Post by: thomasowenm on July 14, 2009, 12:29:53 PM
Just some rambling thoughts, I just finished it I have a large backlog to get through hopfully I'll catch up around Nov.

Let me be one of the few dissenters about Norm Shermans' reading.  I could not stand it, but only because I can't stand dramatized readings. 
On a positive note technically this was edited superbly, and his inclusion of the hubble rap was a much classier attempt at advertising his Drabble cast than Tony Smith's StarShip Sofa ad on ep191This is how it feels.

As far as the story goes I am felt like this was told to me by Papa Gepetto,  "Harry, someday you will be a real boy.  The only difference in the story is that Chester Laughing Crow used salvaged parts and not the odd bit of tree.

I feel like Allie:
I enjoyed the story but I didn't feel it was really science fiction except in its trapping because you could have changed Harry from a mechanical into a human without changing the story in any way. Exactly the same things would have happened and Harry would have behaved the same.


I feel this would have been a much stronger story taking it out of the future, which seemed woefully lacking, and just had Harry be human and come of age in the present.

I have a hard time believing  the future in this story, Native Americans of the present day know how to herd and run profitable business's.  Why would the Crow Nation in the future not raise buffalo  which is done by non Crow now accross the U.S. if their very tasty meat is so valuable?
Do these future Crow turn away from modern technologies? like the Amish by forsaking vehicles and only ride horses or are these constructs too?

With the ending I was once again dissapointed, little Pinnochio (sorry Harry) turns murderer???  Harry and Chester are so heartless as to leave a wounded man on the battle field, when they could have packed him out to face Crow justice and verify their coup?
Oh! I like the drunken Indian cliched sterotype throughout the story, bad move.

Overall This could have been a great story but by placing it an unbelievable future makes me give it C-.
Title: Re: EP201: Harry The Crow
Post by: Jago Constantine on February 20, 2010, 11:10:48 PM
We listened to this story in Second Life today - people liked it. We did wonder how plausible it would be for Yellowstone to be handed back to Native Americans by mid-century, but you never know!
Title: Re: EP201: Harry The Crow
Post by: Unblinking on April 15, 2010, 05:11:57 PM
I liked Norm's reading of this, particularly the robot voice.  Many altered voices just become annoying or incomprehensible, but I could understand it perfectly and it helped differentiate the characters, and even did all that without using the reverb that's used for nearly every other voice effect.

The story, though, I didn't finish.  I listened to it most of the way through, but some major things bugged me to the point of turning it off:

1.  The robot beginning to show human traits has been done so many times (usually by Resnick) that it really has to be something special to make it shine.  I liked the unique perspective on this with the Crow tribe, but I just didn't buy that Harry was actually a robot.  His robotness was completely irrelevent to the story, you could've swapped in a human and nothing would've been changed.  Aside from a few weird looks, that is.  I would've thought that someone would've questioned whether they wanted to be led by a robo-chief.

2.  The trials really seemed badly suited for tribes who are more or less peacefully coexisting.  Particularly the horse-theft.  In a society of warring tribes, sure, stealing an enemy's horse from another tribe might be seen as honorable, and could help your war effort.  But in this case, his "enemy" is just a guy that he's had arguments with.  And stealing the guy's horse is just going to piss him off even more.  I don't know exactly what value they put on their horses but I'd expect them to be very valuable since they seem to be their main form of transport and it takes a lot of time and effort to raise and train a horse.  Also, the trials just seemed ridiculously easy, with the current society--I would think that there would be almost as many chiefs as people!

3.  The boy, to the point in the story that I listened to, was just passive and obedient to his father's every whim.  Did he even WANT to be a chief?  It wasn't clear at that point.  Dad sets up the trials for him, but then TELLS him how to do each one, and then the boy passes if he obeys.  That's not a rite of passage, that's just following a recipe.  To really be a worthy rite of passage he'd have to figure it all out by himself, and do it all by himself.  When he becomes a chief is Daddy going to stand behind him and whisper in his ear what to do? 

4.  Did they really have to have the stun prods?  I would think that a human going through these trials would have to do so WITHOUT stun prods, so it just seems like an unfair advantage.  When I would expect people to be divided over the topic of a robo chief anyway, adding in an incapacitating weapon would push many over that line.