Escape Artists

Escape Pod => Episode Comments => Topic started by: Swamp on October 15, 2009, 01:39:12 PM

Title: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: Swamp on October 15, 2009, 01:39:12 PM
EP220: Come All Ye Faithful (http://escapepod.org/2009/10/15/ep220-come-all-ye-faithful/)

by Robert J. Sawyer (http://www.sfwriter.com/)
Read by Mike Boris

“Damned social engineers,” said Boothby, frowning his freckled face. He looked at me, as if expecting an objection to the profanity, and seemed disappointed that I didn’t rise to the bait.

“As you said earlier,” I replied calmly, “it doesn’t make any practical difference.”

He tried to get me again: “Damn straight. Whether Jody and I just live together or are legally married shouldn’t matter one whit to anyone but us.”

I wasn’t going to give him the pleasure of telling him it mattered to God; I just let him go on. “Anyway,” he said, spreading hands that were also freckled, “since we have to be married before the Company will give us a license to have a baby, Jody’s decided she wants the whole shebang: the cake, the fancy reception, the big service.”


Rated PG.

(http://escapepod.org/wp-images/podcast-mini4.gif)
Listen to this week’s Escape Pod! (http://cdn3.libsyn.com/escapepod/EP_220_ComeAllYeFaithful.mp3?nvb=20091015132820&nva=20091016133820&t=06b43658005792e8d3550)
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: Joaquin Escudero Jr on October 15, 2009, 07:42:24 PM
Oy, I must say that the fating in an airlock line was priceless. I for one will most definitely endeavor to use this line in my daily life. I'm already known as a massive perv so one more retarded joke isn't going to sully my reputation any more.


As far as the story is concerned, the story conjured up old memories of spending my summers in Mexico with relatives, and there fanatical and sometimes tyrannical faith. I do have to make a comment about something that was said in the intro by our fine co-host religion and science are not opposing forces though they are often treated as such in the modern world. Science and religion where once one in the same, some of the greatest thinkers of our time, including Newton and Einstein were highly spiritual, and in the case of Newton, if I remember correctly a devout catholic.

I wasn't too comfortable with the almost ridiculous manner in which religion was treated in this piece, I understand the qualms and broken promises that religion especially Catholicism having once practiced the faith and leaving it after finding spiritual inadequate can render.  During most of the story, the main character tries to understand and work around the non-believers that live among them only to prove there disbelieves true. I found the thing although incredibly well written and narrated to be a little too Catholic bashing for my tastes.

I truly think that belief in God does not hinder ones scientific mind. You can love to understand the world around you, and still believe in a high power or a religious institution for that matter.

But that's my two cents on the matter.
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: Doctor Thump on October 15, 2009, 10:21:52 PM
Okay, okay..will admit that I'm not done with the episode, so I'm not reading the previous posts yet.  But I'll loop back and comment b/c as a gene jockey AND an evangelical Christian, these types of stories fascinate me (and great intro by Norm...I'm not sure I'll ever lose the visual about the dancing, especially when I'm trying to inform my brethern why we know that evolution actually occurred and how that doesn't violate any Biblical teachings...).

Actually, I'm posting to proclaim my thrill at hearing Mike Boris.  Amazing narrator - I listened to "Skinhorse Goes To Mars" four times primarily b/c his narration was spot-on and captured the ironic detachment of the main character.  Not as much detachment this time, but he lends a perfect air and tone to the main character....can't wait to finish listening (actually, got home too early!)

D Rocket
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: monkeystuff on October 16, 2009, 12:02:00 AM
I'm reminded of South Park: Season 6, Episode 615 "the biggest douche in the universe"  If any one has seen this episode they might understand where i'm coming from with this...   In this episode stan realizes that john edwards from crossing over is using cold reading to seem like he is a psychic and give people closure from loved ones that have passed away.  Stan starts to cold read and people mistake him for a psychic even though the whole time he is telling them that he is not psychic,  he then proceeds to bash edwards on his show(crossing over) for being the biggest douche in the universe b/c he lied to all the people.  Edward's defense is that he is giving people hope and closure even if it is false.  He says false hope is better then none.  Well... then what happens is aliens land and take edwards away and give him with the biggest douche in the universe award.

Ok...  In this life we have many unanswered questions, like: Why are we here?  Where did we come from?  What happens to our souls after we die?  Is there a god?  Now to give people answers to these questions that are made up, just because you think it will better them with some sort of false hope is f****** ridiculous.   These questions need to be figured out on our own.  We will never be able to answer these questions for our selfs if we have people lieing to us like the priest did in this story.  I know what award I would nominate him for...
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: monkeystuff on October 16, 2009, 12:21:48 AM
Oh yeah, Norm... good job

and yes farting in the airlock will stick with me for a while... not bad   ;D
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: stePH on October 16, 2009, 04:20:32 AM
Oh, awesome.  I just finish reading Flashforward today, and the latest EP is by the same author.  Off to listen now.
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: DKT on October 16, 2009, 03:48:02 PM
Ah, well. At least he wasn't preaching to the converted (http://Ah, well. At least he wasn't preaching to the converted)

That was a LOL moment for me.

I very much enjoyed listening to this one, all the way through the end. Excellent story.

Also, I have to give Mike Boris a lot of credit. This could have been a very dull listen with the wrong narrator but he was so engaged it just shimmered.

I wasn't too comfortable with the almost ridiculous manner in which religion was treated in this piece, I understand the qualms and broken promises that religion especially Catholicism having once practiced the faith and leaving it after finding spiritual inadequate can render.  During most of the story, the main character tries to understand and work around the non-believers that live among them only to prove there disbelieves true. I found the thing although incredibly well written and narrated to be a little too Catholic bashing for my tastes.

I truly think that belief in God does not hinder ones scientific mind. You can love to understand the world around you, and still believe in a high power or a religious institution for that matter.

I didn't find the story Catholic-bashing. In fact, I found myself relating quite a bit to the narrator through the majority of the story. Yes, I was pissed off with him at the end, but the frustrations he experienced before that from other Catholics coupled with the condescension from Elizabeth and others on Bradbury (Yay for a Mars colony named Bradbury, BTW). Faith is hard, dude. I wish he had made a different decision in the end, definitely. But I don't think that decision takes away from the story or makes it Catholic-Bashing.

Like Dr. Thump, I'm fascinated by these kind of stories as well, especially when they can pull it off. I'm reminded of Resnick's Article of Faith that left a very bad taste in my mouth. This one had quite the opposite effect. Religion wasn't put on a pedestal by the author, neither was it played out as something ridiculous. And it felt more honest to me for that which I very much appreciate. Thanks, Mr. Sawyer.
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: MacArthurBug on October 16, 2009, 04:01:04 PM
Decent solid story. Got me through the first part of my day. I don't know (as a passing agnostic) that it did much for me on the religious level- but I liked the ideas behind it.
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: Swamp on October 16, 2009, 04:11:41 PM
I found myself relating quite a bit to the narrator through the majority of the story. Yes, I was pissed off with him at the end, but the frustrations he experienced before that from other Catholics coupled with the condescension from Elizabeth and others on Bradbury (Yay for a Mars colony named Bradbury, BTW). Faith is hard, dude. I wish he had made a different decision in the end, definitely. But I don't think that decision takes away from the story or makes it Catholic-Bashing.

Like Dr. Thump, I'm fascinated by these kind of stories as well, especially when they can pull it off. I'm reminded of Resnick's Article of Faith that left a very bad taste in my mouth. This one had quite the opposite effect. Religion wasn't put on a pedestal by the author, neither was it played out as something ridiculous. And it felt more honest to me for that which I very much appreciate. Thanks, Mr. Sawyer.

I was trying to find a way to express my feelings about this story, however, DKT summed it up quite nicely.  I really love when religion is integrated well into science fiction.  That said, it is often not done well--it is either mocked or comes off as preachy.  This story hit a lot of the right buttons for me.  Though I was very dissappointed by the actions of the preist at the end, I enjoyed the contemplation of faith among a star-faring people, and I liked the pratical application of faith exhibited by the preist (until the end of curse).  A knee jerk reaction may be to see this story as promoting all religion as a sham, and I'm sure many listeners were reading it that way, but I saw this more as the failed decision of one man.  Anyway, fun stuff.  I like Sawyer's writing.
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: Doctor Thump on October 16, 2009, 08:11:03 PM
Okay - back now....and loved the story.  From the Norm's intro, I kinda' expected there to be a bigger clash b/t the science and religion...but in reality, there wasn't.  As DKT said, it was all so well integrated together - the religion was just a piece of the story and not the focal point - that it all worked well, unlike "Article of Faith" (another kudo to DKT).

Good story - but really like the narration!

Doctor Thump
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: deflective on October 17, 2009, 05:24:09 AM
I do have to make a comment about something that was said in the intro by our fine co-host religion and science are not opposing forces though they are often treated as such in the modern world. Science and religion where once one in the same, some of the greatest thinkers of our time, including Newton and Einstein were highly spiritual, and in the case of Newton, if I remember correctly a devout catholic.

Newton's religious beliefs are difficult to classify (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton%27s_religious_views) but he was born anglican and, by his thirties, held many opinions that would be considered heretical.  Einstein definitely had a spiritual side but it was a spiritualism based on existential wonder and it excluded almost all institutionalized religions.  this usually gets glossed over by pulling quotes out of context.  the quote, 'science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind,' is immediately followed by the qualification (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein#Science_and_Religion_.281941.29) that this doesn't include religion's anthropomorphised vision of god.

I wasn't too comfortable with the almost ridiculous manner in which religion was treated in this piece, I understand the qualms and broken promises that religion especially Catholicism having once practiced the faith and leaving it after finding spiritual inadequate can render.  During most of the story, the main character tries to understand and work around the non-believers that live among them only to prove there disbelieves true. I found the thing although incredibly well written and narrated to be a little too Catholic bashing for my tastes.

none of the characters were shown in a positive light, i was disappointed that every scientist was a condescending prick.  sure, there'd be some resentment toward the guy who flew to mars as a symbolic gesture when you worked your ass off for your seat but that would wear off after a while and you'd see the man instead of the symbol.  scientists can be an ornery bunch, their demand for intellectual rigor can be mistaken for personal attacks, but my experience is that they're likely to give people the chance to stand on their own merits.

i guess the story equally annoyed people on both sides of the issue which is a type of neutrality.


A knee jerk reaction may be to see this story as promoting all religion as a sham, and I'm sure many listeners were reading it that way, but I saw this more as the failed decision of one man.

i like reading it as religion-as-tool.  it provided a great motivating power that grew the mars colony much faster than it would have otherwise, something religion has done for many frontiers.
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: goatkeeper on October 17, 2009, 06:33:09 AM
Einstein definitely had a spiritual side but it was a spiritualism based on existential wonder and it excluded almost all institutionalized religions. 

"Almost all" really screws things up, doesn't it.

  the quote, 'science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind,' is immediately followed by the qualification (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein#Science_and_Religion_.281941.29) that this doesn't include religion's anthropomorphised vision of god.

I think it stands on it's own without that inclusion.  "Regligion"'s board of directors haven't come to a conclusion of what God is, nor has "Science"'s.
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: deflective on October 17, 2009, 07:57:30 AM
"Almost all" really screws things up, doesn't it.

not really.  i've never heard one of Eintsein's religious quotes used in a way that's true to its original meaning.  they're inevitably used in reference to some sort of judeo-christian faith where the meaning is twisted or lost.

the quote, 'science without religion is lame,' is talking about scientists' faith that the mathematical laws they're searching for actually exist.  in order to put in the required effort to untangle empirical data and follow complex thought experiments all the way through you need to have a degree of faith that the laws you're trying to find are definitely there.  without that conviction it's all too easy to let the problem slip and find something else to do.

there are very few religions that are supported by these quotes' original meanings.  the quote, 'god doesn't play dice with the universe,' has probably been used to support gnosticism at some point (where it would make sense) but i haven't seen it.
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: KenK on October 17, 2009, 12:36:35 PM
Religion and science. Now's there's a combination that's hard to reconcile. I can see why this author is a multi-award winner though.
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: Talia on October 17, 2009, 11:32:28 PM
I have the feeling the science vs. religion vs. Einstein subject might merit a spinoff thread so I went ahead and created a gallimaufry thread about it because I had an interesting (IMHO) and relevant link to post.

http://forum.escapeartists.net/index.php?topic=3047.0
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: winterstark on October 18, 2009, 12:27:40 PM
An excellent story, although the priest's choice at the end really did turn him into a douche, as monkeystuff put it. Sure, his action did for Mars what science could not, triggering an influx of people and growth, but he did directly change the lives of thousands, not necessarily for the better.

Also, it seems to me that in most stories featuring conflict between science and faith, the proponent of religion is usually a Catholic. Besides this story, there's Dan Simmons's Hyperion, Mike Resnick's Article of Faith (though I can't remember if he was really Catholic or just Christian), Palmer Joss from the film Contact, and this guy from the upcoming series V (http://v.wikia.com/wiki/Jack_Landry). Any thoughts why?
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: Swamp on October 18, 2009, 04:14:44 PM
Also, it seems to me that in most stories featuring conflict between science and faith, the proponent of religion is usually a Catholic. Besides this story, there's Dan Simmons's Hyperion, Mike Resnick's Article of Faith (though I can't remember if he was really Catholic or just Christian), Palmer Joss from the film Contact, and this guy from the upcoming series V (http://v.wikia.com/wiki/Jack_Landry). Any thoughts why?

Heh.  This is a common complaint I have as well.  If it is not a Catholic preist, it is a televangilist.  In thie case with this story, we get both.  My guess as to why is that Catholisism is historically the oldest Christian religion and I believe still the one with the highest membership worldwide.  And then televangilists are just so darn easy and fun to make fun of.

My personal response to this is that if I feel that way, then I should write different religions into my own writing.
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: deflective on October 18, 2009, 05:11:31 PM
catholicism is the largest and most politically structured of western religions, it also has the most infamous record for suppressing scientific progress.  Galileo & Copernicus are probably the best known examples.  Galileo's daughter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo%27s_Daughter) is a good book to get a feel for this struggle framed against Galileo as a man and the realities of his time.

i don't know many historical stories of scientific suppression (or cooperation) by other religions.  if anyone knows some i'd appreciate links.  particularly eastern religions, we don't hear much about the history of eastern religions here in north america.
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: Darwinist on October 19, 2009, 04:25:53 AM
I was excited when I saw a Sawyer story but groaned when I heard it was about religion.  But I stuck it out and enjoyed it.   I agree with the "religion as a tool" take on it.   I got a chuckle out of the Virgin Mary sightings, reminds of me of the believers that see all kinds of stuff in trees and on walls of  underpasses. 
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: Erenna on October 19, 2009, 05:43:16 AM
My immediate response was enjoyment, although a bit disappointed with the priest's decision in the end.  I think what I liked most was that religion was a part of life in a futuristic Mars colony just like it is here and now.  And just like now some take it seriously, a bunch don't, and some use it to their own ends.  It's similar to Christianity in the Simpsons they may mock Ned Flanders and the Reverend but the Simpson family still goes to church each Sunday.

What I found most troubling was the priest's attitude toward his "flock" was he doing anything to make his faith relevant to these scientists?  How about discussion groups?  If people are that pressed for entertainment they will come for a sermon, give them a chance to play "poke holes in religion" and a few may learn it doesn't have quite as many holes as they thought. 
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: kibitzer on October 20, 2009, 05:26:25 AM
I really wanted to say some awesome stuff here, but y'all have said it already :-)
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: MasterThief on October 21, 2009, 08:13:44 PM
Yes, the "farting in the airlock" and "preaching to the converted" lines were classic.  Yes, I do appreciate the fact that religion was treated with due seriousness.  (And, being Catholic, I have actually met a couple of priests and brothers who were astronomers... and I've met priests who were biologists, psychiatrists, engineers, and economists as well.)  The life of a priest was described very well, and in both this and in "The Legend of St. Ignatz" the author has created more than a stock character.

But the last five minutes strained... and forgive the irony of this term... "suspension of disbelief."  There are two things you need to know about the Vatican.  It is very slow, and it is very thorough, particularly when it comes to miracles or visions.  If the priest had actually reported a Marian vision, even on Mars, they WOULD send more people up there to verify it, and they would probably ask some of the avowedly secular Martian colonists to come along just to make sure they saw some physical presence indicating a miracle.  (The apparition at Fatima involved a "miracle of the sun" that was witnessed by between 40,000 to 100,000 people http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Miracle_of_the_Sun.)

But aside from that, it was a wonderful story.
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: Talia on October 21, 2009, 08:35:39 PM
Yes, the "farting in the airlock" and "preaching to the converted" lines were classic.  Yes, I do appreciate the fact that religion was treated with due seriousness.  (And, being Catholic, I have actually met a couple of priests and brothers who were astronomers... and I've met priests who were biologists, psychiatrists, engineers, and economists as well.)  The life of a priest was described very well, and in both this and in "The Legend of St. Ignatz" the author has created more than a stock character.

But the last five minutes strained... and forgive the irony of this term... "suspension of disbelief."  There are two things you need to know about the Vatican.  It is very slow, and it is very thorough, particularly when it comes to miracles or visions.  If the priest had actually reported a Marian vision, even on Mars, they WOULD send more people up there to verify it, and they would probably ask some of the avowedly secular Martian colonists to come along just to make sure they saw some physical presence indicating a miracle.  (The apparition at Fatima involved a "miracle of the sun" that was witnessed by between 40,000 to 100,000 people http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Miracle_of_the_Sun.)

But aside from that, it was a wonderful story.

I seem to recall the story said he forwarded his statement to some media sources at the same time. (maybe remembering it wrong tho).
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: DKT on October 21, 2009, 09:03:30 PM
Yes, the "farting in the airlock" and "preaching to the converted" lines were classic.  Yes, I do appreciate the fact that religion was treated with due seriousness.  (And, being Catholic, I have actually met a couple of priests and brothers who were astronomers... and I've met priests who were biologists, psychiatrists, engineers, and economists as well.)  The life of a priest was described very well, and in both this and in "The Legend of St. Ignatz" the author has created more than a stock character.

But the last five minutes strained... and forgive the irony of this term... "suspension of disbelief."  There are two things you need to know about the Vatican.  It is very slow, and it is very thorough, particularly when it comes to miracles or visions.  If the priest had actually reported a Marian vision, even on Mars, they WOULD send more people up there to verify it, and they would probably ask some of the avowedly secular Martian colonists to come along just to make sure they saw some physical presence indicating a miracle.  (The apparition at Fatima involved a "miracle of the sun" that was witnessed by between 40,000 to 100,000 people http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Miracle_of_the_Sun.)

But aside from that, it was a wonderful story.

I seem to recall the story said he forwarded his statement to some media sources at the same time. (maybe remembering it wrong tho).


That's how I remember it, too, Talia. CNN, I believe.

I totally hear what MasterThief's saying about sending more people. I wouldn't be surprised if the church did. The problem for me is, if those other people didn't have the vision, you still have the original priest holding fast to his claim and it very much becomes questioning what God has revealed to him. (Which is what he was doing in the first place with the televangelist, but still.) It's a dicey proposition for people of faith. And the non-Vatican pilgrims, well, everyone sees something or other.

I could very much see the whole thing becoming a big controversy, which of course would probably bring more tourism to Mars.
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: El Barto on October 28, 2009, 04:27:55 AM
When the main character went ahead and faked seeing a miracle I could not help but wonder "how many times in history has it happened that a person in power (or wanting power) claimed to see a miracle, or claimed to hear the word of god?"   

I suspect it has happened many many times, and was/is often done by people with pure motives -- wanting to help their family, their community, etc.   

Nevertheless, however, The Cake is a Lie.
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: Gamercow on October 28, 2009, 02:45:44 PM
Another enjoyable story, made all the more so by Mike Boris' excellent narration.  It did a good job of inserting religion into a SF story, and I think did a reasonable job of representing what I would imagine an astronomer-priest living on Mars' behavior would be.  And yes, he did change thousands of peoples lives, but if a little lie brought faith to Mars, then it was probably worth it, in the grand scheme of things, for the church.  7/10
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: eytanz on November 01, 2009, 10:40:59 AM
What I really liked about this story is how well it representes the dichotomy of institutionalized religion - I came to believe that the narrator's faith was entirely genuine. He believes in the words of his church. While at the same time advancing the same church by lying. He does feel guilty about it, and is smart enough to know that if he did, others in the past may well have done the same. But that doesn't stop him from believing.

I also liked how subtly the ending was telegrapheds by the beginning. The narrator is willing - indeed, happy - to marry non-believers, because for the church, and for him, going through the ceremony has value regardless of whether the participants are interested in it. And this value is twofold, as he himself makes clear - on the one hand, a nice ceremony may attract people. But, more importantly, he points out that the churhc wants people to be married using its vows, making a commitment to God, whether or not the people being married give any value to those vows.

It is a small step from that to the ending - it is important, both to his personal sense of worth and to the church, that people come to Mars to worship. The fact that this worship is based on a false miracle is less important than the fact that the people go through with it. 
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: CryptoMe on November 13, 2009, 06:28:49 PM
... the churhc wants people to be married using its vows, making a commitment to God, whether or not the people being married give any value to those vows. 

Just a side note, but this is the exact opposite of my experience with the Catholic church. My observation has been that the Catholic church won't marry you unless both parties are Catholic, attend pre-Cana classes, and promise to raise their children in the Catholic faith. And it wasn't clear to me why these strict rules were relaxed on Mars.

But, that minor point did not detract from my enjoyment of the story. Like most people, I thought the story was fine up until the priest lied. It didn't mesh with his character up until that point, and so seemed incongruous.
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: Alasdair5000 on November 13, 2009, 08:42:50 PM
I think Eytanz said it best when he pointed out the internal dichotomy of faith as presented in the story.  I especially liked how the main character was clearly a very decent, very stand up guy but at the same time does what could very well be a very bad thing for some very good reasons.

As an aside, I'm Catholic, my wife isn't and we got married at a Catholic service.  We were married by my then parish priest and a priest from the island who's an old friend of the family and he was amazed to discover we'd only attended six meetings with our local priest before the wedding.  So, as near as I can tell, the Church's approach to weddings varies wildly but on this side of the Atlantic at least, they're pretty accepting of Catholic/Non Catholic couples.
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: niallmor on November 15, 2009, 05:24:09 AM
As a Catholic myself, I found this story just another example of the old, "Religion is superstitious nonsense, but SCIENCE will show us the way!" trope that runs through way too much SF. I do give the author credit for knowing something about Marian apparitions and the inner workings of the Vatican and the Curia, but he really didn't break any new ground or have anything interesting to say about the interaction of science and religion. I find it particularly troubling (bordering on offensive) that a priest would lie outright to a cardinal about a Marian apparition on Mars solely for the purpose of ginning up a Catholic presence on the planet and a congregation that loves and appreciates the priest. I think the story might have been far more interesting if the priest REALLY HAD seen something extraordinary that could have been a Marian apparition.
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: Jagash on November 16, 2009, 12:14:11 AM
I just listened to this piece and would like to mention some elements that appear to be unnoticed my a few.  The priest is an unreliable narrator.  We do not know if the colony was _truly_ that atheistic and mocking or if that was just the bias of the priest's point of view expressing itself.     

Additionally, there might be more then a bit of selection bias with regards to the colonists.  Even if you ignore the science vs religions conflict (which might lead to more atheists on mars compared to theists), there are other practical difficulties for someone of faith.  Without a Priest prior to his arrival, there would have been no means for Mass, Confession or even Last Rites.  Even beyond that, it is uncertain if the dead could even be buried on consecrated ground and the idea of a devout catholic being denied a means to cleanse the soul nor even a sanctified funeral...  That would scare a number of the Christmas Catholics, let alone the devout. 

As for the final decision?  You have to view it through the lens of classical science fiction.  It is not a decision to lie to the cardinal to gain a larger parish.   It is a decision to use a lie to call the faithful and the Church into space and the future.
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: CryptoMe on November 16, 2009, 07:29:42 PM
It is a decision to use a lie to call the faithful and the Church into space and the future.

Sure, but I still don't see how that makes it okay....
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: Jagash on November 17, 2009, 01:00:02 PM
For a priest, preservation of the faith over the long term is key and space is the future.   It's not necessarily that it is objectively moral, but rather that it is a legitimate motivation for that decision which is so very human.
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: Scattercat on November 19, 2009, 06:11:49 AM
What I really liked about this story is how well it representes the dichotomy of institutionalized religion

I was going to say something about this story, but I'm just going to point at eytanz' entire comment and nod vigorously.  That's pretty much exactly what I was thinking.  (And I loved the priest for being such a lovably self-deluded pragmatist about the whole thing.  I love that the last line is about his uncertain and unfulfilled need for absolution.)
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: simplewhimsy on December 04, 2009, 01:33:47 AM
Heh.  What I liked best was how far removed the priest was from any other Catholics.  It could have been treated like a missionary post, and yet there were absolutely no sisters or brothers sent?  I work in a missionary diocese, myself, and even with a shortage of clergy there is still ample support lines open, even with little money.  There are many, many well educated clergy, religious and even seculars who could have been sent with him (not even a deacon for mass?  some mass parts are hard to do on your own...), hell, even with a "short supply" of religious I find it hard to believe that no one could have been procured to go with this priest.  Catholics are really, really good about donating money.  I'm sure they could have made it work. . .so I find it kinda difficult to believe...

But what made me smirk is how the Vatican in the story felt the need to have an untrained priest in the matter of miracle processing go to the site and reassure them "yeah, no, the guy was lying.  No apparitions here!" before they could get their own team off the ground.  So typical of people in politically charged situations.  And really, it doesn't matter if the Vatican approved the miracle or not (though in the time frame given the Vatican would not have had the time to do a confirm/deny): Catholic/Christian pilgrims go to miracle sightings regardless.

In the end I can't blame the priest.  He said himself that he was not as theologically gifted/trained as some other priests -- and you would have to be in the midst of scientists, to keep up with them in debate! -- so I presume he wasn't a very convincing person in such discussions.  He was all alone, in the middle of non believers with absolutely no backup.  So he made a mistake to rectify the situation.  He may be a priest, and he may have made vows, but he's still a human.

Another thing.  Four years have passed, apparently there are still millions of believers on Earth, but they are so scarce in clergy that no other priest was sent despite tens of thousands of pilgrims coming to mars?  Uh, yeah, you can't tell me that absolutely no order of priests could have sent someone up. >>  Just sayin'. 

For all that though, I enjoyed the story.  Found it to be very mellow.  Good narration.
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: Unblinking on January 18, 2010, 07:54:34 PM
Regarding the question of why Catholicism is always used in such stories, I think the reason for this particular one was the visibility and rigid structure of Catholic hierarchy, and that hierarchy being able to reinterpret religious interpretations to adapt to the times.  If I understand correctly, if the Pope says that "Simon sez ____" then Catholics everywhere are supposed to listen to him.  I don't know of another religious as widespread as that which has a centralized boss.  For instance, I'm Lutheran by upbringing and there's nobody at the top of the church hierarchy that can redefine religious interpretations for all Lutherans everywhere.

I loved the farting in the airlock line!

One detail that I especially appreciated was the young man who kept throwing his disbelief in the priest's face simply to get a rise out of him.  My dad is a Lutheran pastor, and he's mentioned one thing that bugs him:  people who seem to be swearing for the sole purpose of getting a rise out of the pastor.  Dad doesn't swear that I've ever heard, but swearing in general doesn't really bother him.  "That's just how some people talk." and he has no problem with that. But sometimes there are people who continually throw swear words into everything they say and then they pause and watch him for a reaction as if they're waiting for the pastor to lose his temper and call down God's holy wrath on them or some such thing.  So that detail in the story was especially appreciated, very true to life.

Anyway, on to the story:  I enjoyed this one.  I've never ever understood why it's such a commonly held belief that religion and science can't mix.  Assume there is a higher power.  The higher power creates scientific rules to govern the universe.  Voila!  Science and religion coexisting.  Was that so hard?  It's harder to do if every detail of the religious teachings needs to be a fact--I see the Bible not as a documentary, but as a book of stories to teach a set of morals.  And it was written by the hands of men and retranslated a bajillion times, so some of the morals may be skewed by the humanity of those involved in its proliferation.

I didn't think his choice at the ending was out of character at all.  He is very pragmatic, and he wanted to do what he could to strengthen the church and the church's influence.  In this case that influence is spread further by lying than by telling the truth.  Is the action itself morally wrong?  Yes, but Catholicism doesn't teach that humans must be infallible; forgiveness is an important aspect of the religion!  I'm not sure if it will have a positive effect or not, but I can see how he would consider that effect to be positive.  he's afraid that religion will fall completely by the wayside as humans begin to colonize other heavenly bodies, making religion less and less relevant to daily life and he sees that as a tragedy.  So he's doing what he can to prevent that from happening.

I do have trouble relating to the masses that flock to "appearances" of the virgin Mary in random events like water leakage under a freeway overpass.  To my eyes, that looks exactly like water leakage under a freeway overpass.  I mean, it's not like we even have photographs of Mary to compare to, so how could anyone possibly know if a random smudge looks like her or not?

Elvis potato chips, on the other hand, are totally legit!
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: Swamp on January 18, 2010, 10:29:50 PM
If I understand correctly, if the Pope says that "Simon sez ____" then Catholics everywhere are supposed to listen to him.  I don't know of another religious as widespread as that which has a centralized boss.  For instance, I'm Lutheran by upbringing and there's nobody at the top of the church hierarchy that can redefine religious interpretations for all Lutherans everywhere.

My religion, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, is led by revelation from a Prophet and Twelve Apostles.

(By the way, you're so right about Elvis.)
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: Unblinking on January 19, 2010, 03:15:14 PM
If I understand correctly, if the Pope says that "Simon sez ____" then Catholics everywhere are supposed to listen to him.  I don't know of another religious as widespread as that which has a centralized boss.  For instance, I'm Lutheran by upbringing and there's nobody at the top of the church hierarchy that can redefine religious interpretations for all Lutherans everywhere.

My religion, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, is led by revelation from a Prophet and Twelve Apostles.

(By the way, you're so right about Elvis.)

I hadn't known that, I don't know much about that religion.  So perhaps it would be more accurate to say that the Catholic church is the only religion I know of whose boss is widely publicized beyond the religion itself.  I'm not Catholic, but when the Pope make a big announcement, I'll probably hear about it on the news.  So it's an obvious (if not the only) target for making religious proclamations because the whole world would hear about it when the Pope announces it.
Title: Re: EP220: Come All Ye Faithful
Post by: Jago Constantine on March 14, 2010, 12:22:51 PM
We listened to this last week in Second Life - it was popular, although someone had a technical issue about the feasibility of the final transmission to two locations