Escape Artists
Escape Pod => Episode Comments => Topic started by: Swamp on January 08, 2010, 05:04:57 PM
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EP233: Union Dues - The Threnody of Johnny Toruko (http://escapepod.org/2010/01/08/ep233-union-dues-the-threnody-of-johnny-toruko/)
By Jeffrey R. DeRego (http://jeffderego.blogspot.com/).
Read by Stephen Eley.
I duck through the door behind her. The place is jammed with customers. “You have any money? I didn’t think to ask Miss Jennifer for any.”
TK answers, “don’t worry, just tell me what you want.”
“Large with extra sugar and cream.”
TK grins and focuses her attention on the line of people stretching from the entrance down to the counter. They all sidestep and she walks unimpeded front of the pack. “One large black, and one large with extra sugar and cream.”
The barrista, a girl of about 18, repeats the order in a flat monotone.
“And these are on the house. Everyone gets free coffee for the next two hours.”
“Free for everyone,” the clerk answers then puts our order together.
TK snickers and hands the coffee over.
Rated PG. Contains mature themes, violence, and some profanity. You know. Teenage stuff.
Referenced Sites:
Official Union Dues Web Site (http://www.1-800-go-union.com/)
Union Dues on Twitter (http://twitter.com/UnionOfSupers)
Clonepod - Previous Team Shikaragaki stories (http://www.clonepod.org/?s=union+dues)
(http://escapepod.org/wp-images/podcast-mini4.gif)
Listen to this week’s Escape Pod! (http://cdn2.libsyn.com/escapepod/EP233_UD_TheThrenodyOfJohnnyToruko.mp3?nvb=20100108165341&nva=20100109170341&t=0b82f792174a85becc7c6)
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Haven't listened yet, but....
YAY!
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Is this the last "Team Shikaragaki" story? Glad to have this one read by an adult*; looking forward to it.
* Steve is an adult, right? :-\
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29:50, you missed an edit.
I forgot just how much I enjoy Steve as a reader. He does a fantastic job of differentiating between characters.
The story itself was good, but would have been better had I reviewed the storyline first. I'll admit, it wasn't my slice of (pizza) pie. The final scene did a great job of pulling it together.
YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! TELEVISION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I have created a thread about the Union Dues television news here (http://forum.escapeartists.net/index.php?topic=3248.0), and have also transcribed Steve's outro comments. Feel free to go over there and comment on the news.
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I just joined this forum to say WHHHHHOOOOOOO-HOOOOOOO to a new Union Dues story. Depressing superhero stories -- two great tastes that taste great together! YAY!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Registered just now, in order to contribute my two cents as to the question posed about how a potential Union Dues series might avoid the problems of poorly received costumed hero shows and critically unspectacular "people with superpower" dramas like Heroes.
Two of the big problems are the powers (FX budget limitations) and the costumes.
Making the show more...action-y, throwing a little "24" in there, would help on both fronts. It's cheaper to show strong guys punching people around and super-agile people doing the kung fu they do so well than it is to show them throwing cars and climbing tall buildings, presumably. Plus, with punches to throw and practical utilitarian gear to fiddle with they'll seem more like the powered operatives they are, even though their armored uniforms are personalized in a garish style designed by PR out to make people think that these are comicbook characters when they are really highly trained paramilitary operatives.
Other than that, for types of storylines and stuff, I'd maybe describe the Union Dues as being to superheroes what "The Shield" is to cop shows, with the occasional moment of sentimentality in-between grit and paranoia.
Also little bits showing the world as being different than ours: the given city's Pyramid in the background, Innercity private cops on patrol, combat robots, and so on might help.
Hope some of that is useful.
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When I saw "Union Dues" in the description, I emitted a very undignified "squee" for a man of my size.
And I am not let down. I loved it, as I have loved every other Union Dues story that has been presented.
And as for the other news: SQUEEEEEEE! (but dignified)
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Registered just now, in order to contribute my two cents as to the question posed about how a potential Union Dues series might avoid the problems of poorly received costumed hero shows and critically unspectacular "people with superpower" dramas like Heroes.
Two of the big problems are the powers (FX budget limitations) and the costumes.
Making the show more...action-y, throwing a little "24" in there, would help on both fronts. It's cheaper to show strong guys punching people around and super-agile people doing the kung fu they do so well than it is to show them throwing cars and climbing tall buildings, presumably. Plus, with punches to throw and practical utilitarian gear to fiddle with they'll seem more like the powered operatives they are, even though their armored uniforms are personalized in a garish style designed by PR out to make people think that these are comicbook characters when they are really highly trained paramilitary operatives.
Other than that, for types of storylines and stuff, I'd maybe describe the Union Dues as being to superheroes what "The Shield" is to cop shows, with the occasional moment of sentimentality in-between grit and paranoia.
Also little bits showing the world as being different than ours: the given city's Pyramid in the background, Innercity private cops on patrol, combat robots, and so on might help.
Hope some of that is useful.
Comments like these are exactly what we are seeking, especially the "The Shield" comment. Striking the perfect balance between action and character drama is a sizable challenge. We're discussing some exciting variations on Mayhem, Inc (OFF WHITE LIES) which I think will satisfy.
It was an excellent podcast.
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First off, SO FRAKKIN COOL! I will do everything in my power to evangelize Union Dues and you all should too.
The thing I loved from the first Union Dues story I heard was that it was a story about people, many of whom find themselves stuck in a not-so-great situation. It's about their daily doings/conflicts/etc., and "oh yeah, they're also superheroes." I think that's what resonated so much with Watchmen was it was mostly a story about people, albeit people who occasionally put on costumes and kicked some ass.
For me, this is what would make a TV show interesting. I could easily see an episode that opens with the end of a climactic battle, so we see that they do actually do that kind of work. The rest of the episode has nothing to do with them fighting villains or saving the world. It has to do with the machinations of the leaders of the Union, the internal politics of the Pyramids, the ridiculous marketing meetings, the PR of smoothing things over with the "normal" authorities, and the relationships, good and bad, between the Union members. That's what made shows like The Shield, Hill Street Blues, The Sopranos, and ER such successes. They were all ultimately shows about people who did things, not the things that people did.
joe
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As I feared may happen, this thread is filling up with talk about the television show and not the story of Johnny Toruko. Trust me, I completely understand the excitement, and some have regisitered just to comment, which is cool, but I want to once again waive my hands to direct traffic, and keep this road clear for this specific Union Dues story. The Union Dues television discussion thread is over here (http://forum.escapeartists.net/index.php?board=3.0). Thanks.
(It feels good to be moderating in a story thread for a positive reason :) )
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Now to take my own advice.
I really enjoyed this story. It really made me want to go back and relisten to the rest of Team Shikaragaki stories on Clonepod. I remember them in general, but not all of the details. As for Johnny, I thought it was a very strong plot for him. I felt the power of his emotions with his fight with TK as he uncontrollably charged up, and then his panic at the devastating consequences. The ending interaction with Tam was also filled with the perfect application of tension. Very good writing, especially from a young adult perspective.
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29:50, you missed an edit.
Good catch! Thank you, Zorag. I've uploaded a fixed version. Hopefully it won't trigger redownloads for everyone who already has it (it's not worth that) but anyone getting it fresh will have the clean copy. Again, thanks to you.
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Well, I guess I owe a comment as to the specific story.
I liked how there was a good balance between teenage melodrama and believable behavior in the characters. It seemed more like the kind of melodrama that could actually happen rather than a forced convention in the story.
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Great story, and I have to say, I'm glad we've had a union dues story with an ending that wasn't so pitch black it makes a black hole look sunny. Also, excellent news about the Union Dues series - hopefully the hollywood folks won't be so over cautious they'll ignore it. Jeff deserves to have this be made a success!
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I've never been a big fan of the UD series. Until now. This story was very well written and produced and I will now have to revisit that opinion. Great reading too Steve. ;)
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I've never been a big fan of the UD series. Until now. This story was very well written and produced and I will now have to revisit that opinion. Great reading too Steve. ;)
Heh. I've always quite liked the Union Dues stories, except for this one. I felt like it was kind of bland, and a little heavy on the monologues about love. The interaction between Johnny and TK was enjoyable, but once the self-created crisis was over, it started to drag for me.
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29:50, you missed an edit.
Good catch! Thank you, Zorag. I've uploaded a fixed version. Hopefully it won't trigger redownloads for everyone who already has it (it's not worth that) but anyone getting it fresh will have the clean copy. Again, thanks to you.
So how come I've deleted and re-downloaded it twice now, and it still has the error? ???
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@ scattercat
Stories about super heroes have left me kinda cold since late adolescence. I liked the writing and the drama more than the subject matter itself in this particular story. I can grok the notion of "super-heroes", mutants, extraordinary people or whatever form the uber-menschs take okay, but the costumes and all that stuff, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superhero#Common_costume_features) not so much. It reminds of more of kitschy pro-wrestlers with their deliberate self-parody (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LchAsMRV10) than it does sci-fi which IMHO usually aspires to more. This all started with the Superman, Batman, and Shazaam characters from the 1930s DC comics and now everyone kinda feels that they have to have a costume, a secret identity, underground lair and etcetera. It would be refreshing to find some characters that don't. But just like the police or the armed forces you have to have some kind of unique identifier to set you apart from the hoi polloi as you go about your heroic exploits.
I wish this author well with his UD enterprise though. :)
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A Union Dues TV show would be awesome! I have been reading comics (primarily superhero) for over 40 years. The Union Dues series contain some of my favorite stories.
Heroes lost it's way when they thought realism means complexity and gray. Often times it does, but in jerking each character between heroic, villain, and just wanting to be left alone no character seems to have their own core.
With Union Dues, the story shifts to the right character that has the core to fit that story. No one has to flip-flop at least once a season. There doesn't have to be any long arcs, just potent vignettes into what is common to us all - painted on the canvas of extra-ordinary abilities.
If the show is made, I'm sure there will be changes - but if they keep even a sliver of what Jeffery puts into the universe, then it has the potential to be the very best new series on TV in quite a long time *period*.
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Great story. One of my favorite 'Union Dues' tales so far. This is the first Team Shikaragaki story I've heard, but I enjoyed it. (although I do feel that I've missed out on some of the background events...).
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Should I write a little synopsis of the previous stories for the forum or let you folks check out the clonepod releases?
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Should I write a little synopsis of the previous stories for the forum or let you folks check out the clonepod releases?
I'd do both. I'm not trying to bring up a dead subject here, but some of the reading over at Clonepod was, um, inexperienced. Maybe you could post the text somewhere?
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Should I write a little synopsis of the previous stories for the forum or let you folks check out the clonepod releases?
I'd do both. I'm not trying to bring up a dead subject here, but some of the reading over at Clonepod was, um, inexperienced. Maybe you could post the text somewhere?
I think a breif synopsis of the previous UD:TS stories would be nice. However, I also recommend people who haven't heard the stories (no, not you StePH :) ) going over and listening to the readings on Clonepod. Inexperience aside, there was something kind of cool about hearing actual teenagers read these stories from a teenage POV. But I did enjoy Steve's reading of this one.
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Should I write a little synopsis of the previous stories for the forum or let you folks check out the clonepod releases?
I'd do both. I'm not trying to bring up a dead subject here, but some of the reading over at Clonepod was, um, inexperienced. Maybe you could post the text somewhere?
I think a breif synopsis of the previous UD:TS stories would be nice. However, I also recommend people who haven't heard the stories (no, not you StePH :) ) going over and listening to the readings on Clonepod. Inexperience aside, there was something kind of cool about hearing actual teenagers read these stories from a teenage POV. But I did enjoy Steve's reading of this one.
I'll drop a very brief synopsis for each one as I too would rather have the stories heard. Irrespective of the comments here, I was pleased with the way Clonepod handled the material and they had the voices I heard when I was writing them.
Synopsis follows -
The Ballad of Kitty Momoiro:
POV Kitty - the 14 YO Super Agile.
Guest stars - None.
Plot - Discovered by her runaway younger sister at a mall appearance, Kitty is forced to deal with a family issue from the pre-Union days.
What we learn - we learn about the team structure, who each character is, and that Team Shikaragaki is allowed to interact with the normals out of costume. We also learn how Team Shikaragaki differs from the regular Union in comic and TV presentation. Team Shikaragaki travels the US in a modified bus and has no home Pyramid.
The Saga of Tam Suji:
POV Tam - The 15 YO Super Strong.
Guest stars - El Supremo
Plot - following the events in the Kitty story, Team Shikaragaki is scheduled to perform at the Missouri State Fair. Tam, who due to his size isn't allowed to leave the bus, is coaxed out by Kitty. Some of the kids have prepaid cell phones and use them to text one another behind Miss Jennifer's back. They hatch a plan to distract Miss Jennifer so Tam can walk around the fair. However, a wrestling challenge with El Supremo, a gorilla suit and the promise of a kiss from Kitty draws Tam out of his natural shyness. A wayward firework draws out his natural heroism.
What we learn - Tam is the son of two prominent lawyers who sued The Union to prevent his recruitment, but lost every case all the way up to the US Supreme Court. In the process they grew distant from Tam.
The Opus of Taizen Kiiro:
POV TK - The 16 YO Mind Reader
Guest stars - El Supremo/Megaton (both non speaking)
Plot - Tam's parents win another court appearance in front of the US Supreme Court drawing both Tam and Miss Jennifer away and putting TK in charge of driving Johnny and Kitty from Texas to Los Angeles. TK begins receiving violent and tortured messages from someone and it's beginning to drive her crazy. They cross paths with The Solomon Brothers Circus on the way, and always seem to be behind them by a town or two. The trio breaks Miss Jennifer's instructions after news breaks that TK's mother, aging scream queen Daphne Sanders dies of a drug overdose. They stay in one town long enough to visit the traveling circus. In the midst of the performance the star male elephant, Trunko, goes on a rampage.
What we learn - TK's mom sold her out to the Union. TK used to be Spoonbender until she blew a second mission in Chicago. She was the first person that Miss Jennifer recruited to Team Shikaragaki. Mind readers can store other people's emotions and memories but not for all that long before they start to cause problems. We also learn a little about how mind readers are trained.
Hope this whets your appetites for the Clonepod tales. You really should listen to them.
Also, Team Shikaragaki made their first real appearance in "Freedom with a Small f" when TK and Miss Jennifer rescued Crimson Nightshade from the hospital...
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I am *really* happy to hear Mr. DeRego is doing better ( :
Although at least one of his stories in the past has made me so upset that I got a bit shirty, I am really pleased he is writing these. Without him, and without Mur Lafferty's "Playing for Keeps", I'd never have thought I could be into superhero stories.
Kudos!
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I think a breif synopsis of the previous UD:TS stories would be nice. However, I also recommend people who haven't heard the stories (no, not you StePH :) ) going over and listening to the readings on Clonepod.
??? I've already heard all the Clonepod stories; in the past I've had mostly favorable things to say about Clonepod in general. The only "Team Shikaragaki" story that hurt to listen to was Abby's reading of "Kitty Momoiro"; the others were at least tolerable.
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I think a breif synopsis of the previous UD:TS stories would be nice. However, I also recommend people who haven't heard the stories (no, not you StePH :) ) going over and listening to the readings on Clonepod.
??? I've already heard all the Clonepod stories; in the past I've had mostly favorable things to say about Clonepod in general. The only "Team Shikaragaki" story that hurt to listen to was Abby's reading of "Kitty Momoiro"; the others were at least tolerable.
I'm sorry, StePH. I thought I remembered you as being pretty vocal against the podcast. I must have misremembered, or maybe it was just the "Kitty" story. Anyway, I should have checked, or just shut up. I'm glad you spoke up and corrected me.
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I'm sorry, StePH. I thought I remembered you as being pretty vocal against the podcast.
No, just the hosts, particularly the girl. She had exactly the kind of child voice that grates on me like a squeaking balloon. But Clonepod tended to have good stories and good readers, and I miss it now that it's gone.
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Any another great Union Dues story. Another great one.
Just though I'd say I'm also glad Mr. DeRego is doing better.
I had put escape pod to the side since I tried to listen to the Christmas ep, and failed becuase I was on the bus and couldn't hear anything. I figured it would be fixed, I'd go back and listen to lots of stories at once.
But I saw it was a Union Dues and was glad to see another one.
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Once again, DeRego, you rock!
Glad to get another T:S story in. I enjoyed the Clonepod readings, even the "bad" ones.
Hey, everybody has to start sometime and somewhere! Those kids did great! To those who didn't like them because of their skill level, how well did you do on your first attempt at a new thing?
All of the UD stories are good tales. When you listen to several in a row, chronologically (like I did), they are even better. You guys oughtta try it.
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Oh, and one more thing:
Now, I don't want to offend anyone, but I usually don't care for stories with homosexuals. Just a personal preference, and I try not to make any judgments until I hear the story. There are several on EP, and I have listened to them all. Some I liked, some I didn't.
This time, the subject was done in a very UN-offensive manner. The main character is gay, and, that is the main point of the story, but that doesn't take anything away in my eyes.
It takes skill to write a story with controversial subject matter in such a way as to be acceptable to even the hardest of hearts. Mine included.
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Once again, DeRego, you rock!
Glad to get another T:S story in. I enjoyed the Clonepod readings, even the "bad" ones.
Hey, everybody has to start sometime and somewhere! Those kids did great! To those who didn't like them because of their skill level, how well did you do on your first attempt at a new thing?
When I was learning to play guitar and bass (and even now, as I learn to play Stick) I had the good sense not to inflict my playing on others until I had developed some basic competency on the instrument. :P
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This is the first Union Dues story that I've heard and I thought it was well done. It was slow at the beginning, and it seemed to hinge on Johnny's homosexuality to be a surprise when it seemed obvious from the blush. I have heard from gay readers and writers that they'd like to see more stories with gay characters, and I thought this one was done well, letting us feel what the character is feeling instead of trying to go overboard and mix in other elements (like animal sex) that are more liable to get a resounding EW from everyone, instead of letting me understand the POV.
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I thought this story was just. . . great!
Which is sort of funny considering that I'm one of those people who really "pure" science fiction stories. But there's just something about the Union Dues stories that I love.
I loved this story's twist with the romance and the mind reading.
One question though. The main character exploded with energy and killed more than just his partner, right? He brought her back to life with CPR but left a bunch of other dead bodies in the park?
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One question though. The main character exploded with energy and killed more than just his partner, right? He brought her back to life with CPR but left a bunch of other dead bodies in the park?
No, he didn't explode, he just built up an electric charge which discharged when he was touched. Only one person was killed. (She got better.)
I'm only a little surprised that they resort to the usual (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CPRCleanPrettyReliable) CPR (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicalDefibrillator) tropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LightningCanDoAnything), but it was a bit jarring that neither Johnny (an electricity manipulator with poor power control) nor Miss Jennifer (that guy's supervisor) know basic electricity safety. In particular, if you get a serious shock, you should seek medical attention right away even if you're seemingly all right, it's possible for electric shocks to cause serious internal injuries that are not immediately obvious. (Also, did anyone else have flashbacks to this comic (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/5/25/)?)
That aside, another great story. The news of a possible TV adaptation for Union Dues is quite exciting, too.
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One question though. The main character exploded with energy and killed more than just his partner, right? He brought her back to life with CPR but left a bunch of other dead bodies in the park?
No, he didn't explode, he just built up an electric charge which discharged when he was touched. Only one person was killed. (She got better.)
I'm only a little surprised that they resort to the usual (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CPRCleanPrettyReliable) CPR (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicalDefibrillator) tropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LightningCanDoAnything), but it was a bit jarring that neither Johnny (an electricity manipulator with poor power control) nor Miss Jennifer (that guy's supervisor) know basic electricity safety. In particular, if you get a serious shock, you should seek medical attention right away even if you're seemingly all right, it's possible for electric shocks to cause serious internal injuries that are not immediately obvious. (Also, did anyone else have flashbacks to this comic (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/5/25/)?)
That aside, another great story. The news of a possible TV adaptation for Union Dues is quite exciting, too.
That reminded me of what I wanted to say. When he performed CPR I got the feeling that it had just occurred to him that he could do it, but it seems to me that the Union would have trained him to use his power this way already. In general I think the Union would come up with creative uses for superpowers. Also, though I have no idea how this actually works, I thought that if someone were electrocuted to the point of steam rising from their head, they would be beyond saving. I could be wrong, but since a guy who can generate electricity would be a fountain of electrical safety tips, the seems like a good point for him to say, "he knew that the steam was just water vapor in the air reacting to the charge differential, but also that he had little time to resuscitate a shock victim...."
But this is pretty minor. Overall, even though I'm not that interested in homosexual coming of age stories, this is one of my favorite UDs so far. The part at the end where he confesses his love and the other guy maybe already knows, but doesn't feel the same way even though he likes the guy as a friend and just wants to diffuse the tension without blowing him off was very well done.
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you raise good points..but..
what teenage boy would think that way?
I felt the way it was handled was representative of how a teenager might react.
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No, he didn't explode, he just built up an electric charge which discharged when he was touched. Only one person was killed. (She got better.)
Really? I thought he killed all those people while listening, but I guess in retrospect it makes more sense that he didn't or there would be a media frenzy.
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This is one of the most amazing story series ever podcasted, hands down. And, IMO, this is the best episode of it to appear yet on EP. Thank you for bringing it to us!
Steve -- Any chance you'd hook me up with DeRego to get an interview with him on my show before he gets all famous?
I'm just kidding, I wouldn't beg you for help on your own boards.
No I'm not, I totally would. I am.
Please don't hit me.
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No, he didn't explode, he just built up an electric charge which discharged when he was touched. Only one person was killed. (She got better.)
Really? I thought he killed all those people while listening, but I guess in retrospect it makes more sense that he didn't or there would be a media frenzy.
I believe he mentioned that when he manifested during the exorcism, that was when he leveled the entire room, including his mother. I don't remember thinking he killed them, just that he did a lot of collateral damage.
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Steve -- Any chance you'd hook me up with DeRego to get an interview with him on my show before he gets all famous?
I'm just kidding, I wouldn't beg you for help on your own boards.
No I'm not, I totally would. I am.
Please don't hit me.
d00d, you do know Mr. DeRego is here on this board, and you can address him directly, or send him a private message, right? ;)
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Steve -- Any chance you'd hook me up with DeRego to get an interview with him on my show before he gets all famous?
I'm just kidding, I wouldn't beg you for help on your own boards.
No I'm not, I totally would. I am.
Please don't hit me.
d00d, you do know Mr. DeRego is here on this board, and you can address him directly, or send him a private message, right? ;)
I even have skype (jrderego) and have been known to field unsolicited skype calls from people.
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I even have skype (jrderego) and have been known to field unsolicited skype calls from people.
(http://209.85.48.12/9545/149/emo/offtopic2.gif) I love Skype; Skype is made of awesome. I use it to talk to my mom and my brother in Seattle without using cell phone minutes, and having video is even better.
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No, he didn't explode, he just built up an electric charge which discharged when he was touched. Only one person was killed. (She got better.)
Really? I thought he killed all those people while listening, but I guess in retrospect it makes more sense that he didn't or there would be a media frenzy.
He killed/injured several people at the church school when he originally manifested during the exorcism before he was captured and taken by The Union. Effectively he duplicated this event in the small scale with TK, only instead of running and hiding in the park he turned around and tried to save her, i.e. he overcame his fear and did the right thing. That's a common theme in the Team stories, by the way :)
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I thought this was one of the weakest stories of late. Not a whole lot of point to it. Not only that but a threnody is a poem or song of mourning composed to a dead person so I don't see the connection there. Big holes in the story also. If they had been team members for so long she would have known not to touch him. Boring "in the closet unrequited love" theme not to mention the overt anti-religious overtones.
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Good catch! Thank you, Zorag. I've uploaded a fixed version. Hopefully it won't trigger redownloads for everyone who already has it (it's not worth that) but anyone getting it fresh will have the clean copy. Again, thanks to you.
Heh, and the little double-click was adorable, by the way.
I know I'm in the minority here, but this was my first Union Dues story and judging by the reactions of everyone else in the thread that needs to be remedied. Can someone point me in the right direction? This might be the perfect occasion for a compilation disc.
Edited 10 minutes later: And that's what I get for not finishing the thread before posting. Thank you for the excellent summary, Jrderego! But I wasn't kidding about that compilation disc...
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I know I'm in the minority here, but this was my first Union Dues story and judging by the reactions of everyone else in the thread that needs to be remedied. Can someone point me in the right direction? This might be the perfect occasion for a compilation disc.
Below is a list of Jeff DeRego's stories here on Escape Pod. They are all Union Dues except for Ambient Sleeze.
Jeffery R. DeRego (http://jeffderego.blogspot.com/)
EP027: Union Dues - Iron Bars and the Glass Jaw (http://escapepod.org/2005/11/10/ep027-iron-bars-and-the-glass-jaw/)
EP041: Ambient Sleaze (http://escapepod.org/2006/02/16/ep041-ambient-sleaze/)
EP049: Union Dues - Off White Lies (http://escapepod.org/2006/04/13/ep049-union-dues-off-white-lies/)
EP062: Union Dues - The Baby and the Bathwater (http://escapepod.org/2006/07/13/ep062-union-dues-the-baby-and-the-bathwater/)
EP080: Union Dues - Cleanup in Aisle Five (http://escapepod.org/2006/11/16/ep080-union-dues-cleanup-in-aisle-five/)
EP128: Union Dues - Send in the Clowns (http://escapepod.org/2007/10/18/ep128-union-dues-send-in-the-clowns/)
EP149: Union Dues - All That We Leave Behind (http://escapepod.org/2008/03/14/ep149-union-dues-all-that-we-leave-behind/)
EP154: Union Dues - Freedom With a Small f (http://escapepod.org/2008/04/18/ep154-union-dues-freedom-with-a-small-f/)
EP172: Union Dues - Tabula Rasa (http://escapepod.org/2008/08/22/ep172-union-dues-tabula-rasa/)
EP185: Union Dues - All About the Sponsors (http://escapepod.org/2009/01/02/ep185-union-dues-all-about-the-sponsors/)
EP233: Union Dues - The Threnody of Johnny Toruko (http://escapepod.org/2010/01/08/ep233-union-dues-the-threnody-of-johnny-toruko/)
The link for the former Team Shikaragaki stories on Clonepod can be found in the first post of this thread.
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not to mention the overt anti-religious overtones.
I thought it was refreshing to see someone unafraid to take on some of the (frankly) stupider parts of religion. I mean, exorcism? Please. And if the character is anti-religious, don't you think he has a right to be after what was done to him?
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Not only that but a threnody is a poem or song of mourning composed to a dead person so I don't see the connection there. Big holes in the story also. If they had been team members for so long she would have known not to touch him.
Title could indicate he was the author, not that it was about him. He killed his friend.
Or if it was meant to be about him, he's making a huge sacrifice there at the end, could just be meant to be suggestive of all he's giving up.
Secondly: regards to the touching thing - keep in mind we're talking about teenagers here, who don't always behave rationally, particularly in moments of stress. Also: she's a telepath. She was almost certainly directly picking up on his distress, which would have interfered with her ability to think clearly.
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not to mention the overt anti-religious overtones.
I thought it was refreshing to see someone unafraid to take on some of the (frankly) stupider parts of religion. I mean, exorcism? Please. And if the character is anti-religious, don't you think he has a right to be after what was done to him?
Yeah, it seemed to me it was anti-religions-bashing-gay-people, not anti-religion in general.
Unless being against religions being against gay people means being anti-religious. In which case, I would qualify as anti-religious too.
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not to mention the overt anti-religious overtones.
I thought it was refreshing to see someone unafraid to take on some of the (frankly) stupider parts of religion. I mean, exorcism? Please. And if the character is anti-religious, don't you think he has a right to be after what was done to him?
Yeah, it seemed to me it was anti-religions-bashing-gay-people, not anti-religion in general.
I think you are right, Talia. I admit I groaned a little with the broad brush painted about religion, but, within the story, I also agree with Kaa. This is Johnny's point of view, and if this is what happened to him, this would be his perception of religion.
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No, he didn't explode, he just built up an electric charge which discharged when he was touched. Only one person was killed. (She got better.)
Thanks. What confused me was when the text said, "He fades away and I see the others. A dozen bodies in white robes, all dead, just like TK." I guess that was a flashback to an earlier time when he killed accidentally killed other people.
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Not only that but a threnody is a poem or song of mourning composed to a dead person so I don't see the connection there.
I didn't care for this as much as other UD stories (which I generally quite enjoy), but I do want to point out that the whole person of "Johnny Toruko" is a fabrication. Johnny Toruko is a flashy ladies' man, flirtatious and confident. The actual Johnny is a shy, repressed gay kid with a crush on his oblivious best friend. The story is about Johnny coming out to another of his teammates and beginning the process of showing his real identity to the world. Thus, Johnny Toruko, the false mask, is dead (or will be dead one day.)
Thus, "Threnody" is actually a quite apt title, even apart from keeping with the theme of the other Team Shikarigaki story names (which are all poem or song types.) I would, in fact, be willing to say that the use of "Threnody" here is my favorite part of the story, period. (Again, apologies to jrderego, but this one just didn't do it for me as a whole.)
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not to mention the overt anti-religious overtones.
I thought it was refreshing to see someone unafraid to take on some of the (frankly) stupider parts of religion. I mean, exorcism? Please. And if the character is anti-religious, don't you think he has a right to be after what was done to him?
Refreshing? Yeah, because nobody eeeevveeer does that. Ever hear of Richard Dawkins? Also, you can't blame the over tones on the character when it is the writer that is creating the character and situations. The character is anti-religious because the author wrote him that way. (See, Jessica Rabbit)
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Not only that but a threnody is a poem or song of mourning composed to a dead person so I don't see the connection there.
I didn't care for this as much as other UD stories (which I generally quite enjoy), but I do want to point out that the whole person of "Johnny Toruko" is a fabrication. Johnny Toruko is a flashy ladies' man, flirtatious and confident. The actual Johnny is a shy, repressed gay kid with a crush on his oblivious best friend. The story is about Johnny coming out to another of his teammates and beginning the process of showing his real identity to the world. Thus, Johnny Toruko, the false mask, is dead (or will be dead one day.)
Thus, "Threnody" is actually a quite apt title, even apart from keeping with the theme of the other Team Shikarigaki story names (which are all poem or song types.) I would, in fact, be willing to say that the use of "Threnody" here is my favorite part of the story, period. (Again, apologies to jrderego, but this one just didn't do it for me as a whole.)
The problem there is that a threnody is not a lament about a fake person or an idea or a part of a person or a character in a play. As to the killing of his team mate, she is alive at the end of the story thus threnody doesn't work there either.
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The problem there is that a threnody is not a lament about a fake person or an idea or a part of a person or a character in a play.
Why couldn't it be? Creative interpretation and all that.
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Scattercat's interpretation of the title makes sense to me! (I didn't know what a threnody was while listening, so I didn't really give the title a second thought).
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"Threnody"...keeping with the theme of the other Team Shikarigaki story names (which are all poem or song types.)
Just for reference:
Union Dues: The Ballad of Kitty Momoiro - (Clonepod Ep. 11)
Union Dues: The Saga of Tam Suji - (Clonepod Ep. 16)
Union Dues: The Sojourn of Taizen Kiro - (Clonepod Ep. 22)
Union Dues: The Threnody of Johnny Toruko - (Escape Pod Ep. 233)
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The problem there is that a threnody is not a lament about a fake person or an idea or a part of a person or a character in a play.
Why couldn't it be? Creative interpretation and all that.
Because the definition of the word does not fit. You would have a problem with someone calling "blue", "artichoke" wouldn't you?
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Because the definition of the word does not fit. You would have a problem with someone calling "blue", "artichoke" wouldn't you?
And yet "blue" can also mean 'depressed' even though mood has nothing to do with the color.
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hear hear! lets start the society for literal accuracy in escape pod titles.
for too long we have endured titles like requiem in d-minor and the sweet, sad love song of Fred and Wilma. it is time to take up arms against a sea of troubles and, by opposing, end them (note: not a literal sea of troubles. or arms.).
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Because the definition of the word does not fit. You would have a problem with someone calling "blue", "artichoke" wouldn't you?
And yet "blue" can also mean 'depressed' even though mood has nothing to do with the color.
*sigh* The term in question is a very specific term. All of that aside, this was a very boring story in an otherwise good series.
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The problem there is that a threnody is not a lament about a fake person or an idea or a part of a person or a character in a play.
Why couldn't it be? Creative interpretation and all that.
Because the definition of the word does not fit. You would have a problem with someone calling "blue", "artichoke" wouldn't you?
Not necesarily. Not if it was set up convincingly. Not if the person who made such a statement made a case for it, as it were.
That's what creativity's about! :)
Obviously you don't buy the argument this story makes, and that's fine. (everyone's different, obviously!).
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not to mention the overt anti-religious overtones.
I thought it was refreshing to see someone unafraid to take on some of the (frankly) stupider parts of religion. I mean, exorcism? Please. And if the character is anti-religious, don't you think he has a right to be after what was done to him?
Refreshing? Yeah, because nobody eeeevveeer does that. Ever hear of Richard Dawkins? Also, you can't blame the over tones on the character when it is the writer that is creating the character and situations. The character is anti-religious because the author wrote him that way. (See, Jessica Rabbit)
For the record I liked the story. But I did think the story of Toruko's upbringing was a little trite. I found it believable, but the parents and the pastor were all fairly typical in the popular stories of gay children. I would have found it more interesting if someone were acting against type (the father trying to protect Toruko from his mother, the priest trying to talk them out of the exorcism) and got electrocuted anyway. Also, IMHO, it would have made Toruko's remorse more powerful.
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I think there is too much thinking about the title and the religion on the thread.
Most of us have answered this, but not all...
What it boils down to is Did you enjoy the story?
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I think it is a threnody-- Johnny's threnody for TK, after he kills her, and to an extent for the parts of himself that he's been leaving with the people who have tried to take them away.
Loved the story. Love gay stories in general. I'm queer myself, I generally find myself unrepresented in my favorite genres-- it's nice to see some gay stories that aren't just Gay Stories of Gayness For The Gays. Johnny went through the same thing most teenagers go through-- that sort of intense limerence-- in an identifiable way. Maybe I liked it more because I've been there, without the, you know, lightning parts, but whatevz.
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I think it is a threnody-- Johnny's threnody for TK, after he kills her, and to an extent for the parts of himself that he's been leaving with the people who have tried to take them away.
Loved the story. Love gay stories in general. I'm queer myself, I generally find myself unrepresented in my favorite genres-- it's nice to see some gay stories that aren't just Gay Stories of Gayness For The Gays. Johnny went through the same thing most teenagers go through-- that sort of intense limerence-- in an identifiable way. Maybe I liked it more because I've been there, without the, you know, lightning parts, but whatevz.
But even if you take that he kills her which he didn't since she is alive and that he metaphorically killed himself since he didn't since he simply repressed outing himself to the object of his affection it is still not a threnody in that he didn't pen a song or poem.
Why do stories with gay stories with gay characters only have plot lines that revolve around their gayness? Isn't it a bit of soft bigotry to assume that the characters are so one dimensional that that is the only issue going on in their lives?
cdugger, no, I didn't enjoy the story because it was shallow, predictable and had obvious flaws. (I don't mind flaws. Just don't make them so damn obvious.)
My last post on this story. I do have to say that the discussion of the story was more entertaining than the story itself.
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Because the definition of the word does not fit. You would have a problem with someone calling "blue", "artichoke" wouldn't you?
And yet "blue" can also mean 'depressed' even though mood has nothing to do with the color.
Not even Picasso's "Blue Period"? :P
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I think it is a threnody-- Johnny's threnody for TK, after he kills her, and to an extent for the parts of himself that he's been leaving with the people who have tried to take them away.
Loved the story. Love gay stories in general. I'm queer myself, I generally find myself unrepresented in my favorite genres-- it's nice to see some gay stories that aren't just Gay Stories of Gayness For The Gays. Johnny went through the same thing most teenagers go through-- that sort of intense limerence-- in an identifiable way. Maybe I liked it more because I've been there, without the, you know, lightning parts, but whatevz.
But even if you take that he kills her which he didn't since she is alive and that he metaphorically killed himself since he didn't since he simply repressed outing himself to the object of his affection it is still not a threnody in that he didn't pen a song or poem.
Why do stories with gay stories with gay characters only have plot lines that revolve around their gayness? Isn't it a bit of soft bigotry to assume that the characters are so one dimensional that that is the only issue going on in their lives?
cdugger, no, I didn't enjoy the story because it was shallow, predictable and had obvious flaws. (I don't mind flaws. Just don't make them so damn obvious.)
My last post on this story. I do have to say that the discussion of the story was more entertaining than the story itself.
The poem is implicit in the story that was told.
as for "Why do stories with gay stories with gay characters only have plot lines that revolve around their gayness?"
well. For one, not all do, see, IMHO, http://podcastle.org/2009/12/22/podcastle-83-the-petrified-girl/.
Secondly, in this day and age, it continues to be "an issue" if you're in a homosexual relationship. That's just a fact, unless you're fortunate enough to live in an extremely progressive city.
Would you be making such a statement if this story were about a straight couple? Ask yourself that, and be honest.
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But even if you take that he kills her which he didn't since she is alive and that he metaphorically killed himself since he didn't since he simply repressed outing himself to the object of his affection it is still not a threnody in that he didn't pen a song or poem.
And why is this place called Escape Pod anyway? We don't actually escape from anything! We only listen to stories! It should be called "Site Where You Listen to Stories." Maybe add on "Run by Steve Eley" to differentiate it from all the other sites called "Site Where You Listen to Stories."
Wait, crap, they do entire episodes which are just about the site itself. Okay, this podcast is now called "Site Run by Steve Eley Where You Listen to Stories and Sometimes Also Some Information About the Site Itself."
I look forward to seeing the new logos for SRbSEWYLtSaSASIAtSI.
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Okay, this podcast is now called "Site Run by Steve Eley Where You Listen to Stories and Sometimes Also Some Information About the Site Itself."
I look forward to seeing the new logos for SRbSEWYLtSaSASIAtSI.
Amen! HA!
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We are approaching the outer edge of Civility City
Remember to stock up at Al's Store on bottled water and Snickers for your journey into the Snarklands.
Or!
Why not turn around and head back into Civility City! We have pie!
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For the record I liked the story. But I did think the story of Toruko's upbringing was a little trite. I found it believable, but the parents and the pastor were all fairly typical in the popular stories of gay children. I would have found it more interesting if someone were acting against type (the father trying to protect Toruko from his mother, the priest trying to talk them out of the exorcism) and got electrocuted anyway. Also, IMHO, it would have made Toruko's remorse more powerful.
Because this is a Team Shikaragaki (did I spell it right?) story, isn't it aimed toward somewhat-younger readers (mature YA, I believe)? And while I think they can handle somewhat-mature topics, sometimes you have to paint with a broad brush.
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After four pages, I don't think there's anything substantive that I can add except that I think the climax was too close to the middle (killing/saving TK) and the climax at the end, while interesting, wasn't enough to really thrill me. Johnny's choice didn't break any new ground because he didn't back it up.
I really expected TK to somehow influence Tam instead, to make him more receptive.
Reading: I felt sometimes Steve's voice for Johnny changed from "Steve" to "slightly-deeper-Steve" several times, which was distracting. Am I the only one who noticed?
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We are approaching the outer edge of Civility City
Remember to stock up at Al's Store on bottled water and Snickers for your journey into the Snarklands.
Or!
Why not turn around and head back into Civility City! We have pie!
Can we have jam?
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We are approaching the outer edge of Civility City
Remember to stock up at Al's Store on bottled water and Snickers for your journey into the Snarklands.
Or!
Why not turn around and head back into Civility City! We have pie!
If there's pecan pie, I am there. :)
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What does "Shikaragaki" mean?
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What does "Shikaragaki" mean?
Four Color Kids
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There were three Union Dues stories with a gay character that didn't revolve around his gayness earlier in the series. This isn't the only story Johnny appears in, after all.
Also, there aren't a lot of stories where gay characters are represented in ways separate from their gayness because you default to assuming a character is straight unless anything is said about their orientation. We don't know what Mr. Penumbra does in those 8 off hours, do we? (Though I would like to note that there is bisexuality, if I remember correctly, in Pirate Solutions.)
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I don't normally enjoy Union Dues stories as much as some of the other stuff, but this one I liked. Teenage me would have been blown away.
The ending was kind of dark (if you think about it)... Johnny learns about unrequited love and has to live with it in a whole new way.
Also, I learned a new word. Kudos!
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Because this is a Team Shikaragaki (did I spell it right?) story, isn't it aimed toward somewhat-younger readers (mature YA, I believe)? And while I think they can handle somewhat-mature topics, sometimes you have to paint with a broad brush.
I couldn't disagree more, but given that we've already spent a page and a half on the title, I think I'll refrain from derailing into a discussion about why people tend to write terrible YA stories instead of really good ones, which mostly revolves around the (false) idea that the young'uns can't handle complexity.
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I really expected TK to somehow influence Tam instead, to make him more receptive.
For me, that would put this story solidly into the horror genre, frankly. Mind-rape is squicky.
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We are approaching the outer edge of Civility City
Remember to stock up at Al's Store on bottled water and Snickers for your journey into the Snarklands.
Or!
Why not turn around and head back into Civility City! We have pie!
come to the snark side. we have cake.
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Why not turn around and head back into Civility City! We have pie!
come to the snark side. we have cake.
The cake is a lie.
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Also, there aren't a lot of stories where gay characters are represented in ways separate from their gayness because you default to assuming a character is straight unless anything is said about their orientation.
I think you hit the nail on the head with that answer. Very well put!
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Excellentness indeed. Mr. DeRego has done it again and made me eager for his next outing in his expanding universe!
Also, congratulations on the shrunken waistline and general state of health; that's not something easy to do. I'm struggling with it, myself.
The tale, "Union Dues - The Threnody of Johnny Toruko" was very heart-breaking. I found myself thinking about the closeted life of Johnny and how growing up through his teenage years -from life in a strict, literalist religious household to the four-color world of the Pyramids- must have been so stifling when you don't fit so well in the role you've been assigned. As I listen to more of the Union Dues series, I'm getting the growing impression that a civil war is brewing and not in a cheesy, Marvel Comics way. The roles the Supers are being pressed into don't sit well with a large number of them and Johnny is emblematic of that.
Miss Jennifer is a good teacher and guide for them in at least one regard. She taught Johnny, albeit in far too short a time for him to truly grasp the lesson and its ramifications, that there are times you have to buckle down and live in very unfortunate circumstances. Many people live a life of service to which they are either ill-suited or -frankly- loathe. It neither suits them nor rewards them. Union Dues represents that beurocratic nightmare very well.
With Johnny, though, it runs very, very deep. I would not at all be surprised to see him in Antarctica one day.
But, again, at least Miss Jennifer is right about unrequited love: it never changes or grows tarnished. He'll have that love for the rest of his life. Or, perhaps, until he meets someone else ... someone not straight who can share his life.
For any gay man who's fallen for a straight man, it's hard -very hard- to live with. It's a hurt that doesn't go away easily. But it does go away with time, friends, and life. This story shows that hard point in opening up and being yourself -in balancing responsibility with who you really are by telling the truth to those who can help you shoulder your burden- in a pretty awful world for a gay person. You have to stay closeted in this world, at least as a teen. It's pretty nasty. At least he has TK and Miss Jennifer on his side. That, alone, will help a bit.
Coming out is hard. It should be hard even for a super-hero.
Yours,
Sylvan (Dave)
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Why do stories with gay stories with gay characters only have plot lines that revolve around their gayness? Isn't it a bit of soft bigotry to assume that the characters are so one dimensional that that is the only issue going on in their lives?
Oh, come on...
"You can tell a story about someone who's gay but it can't revolve around what makes them gay?"
That's absurd! That's like saying, "You can tell a story about an astronaut but it can't revolve around what makes them an astronaut." In short, if there is a character trait that is important to that character's make-up -VERY important- it is going to figure into the plot. That's how writing works.
Try turning it around: try removing all aspects of straight-ness from the next straight character you find in a story. Remove that character's straight relationships, straight-identifying emotions, life's consequences arising from society, children (something that -generally- has something to do with their heterosexuality, although less these days), and other, similar properties. You're left with a big hole in that character unless the story has absolutely nothing to do with relationships, at all.
The most mundane stories featuring gay characters tend to be neutered gays: they're gay in name alone or feature gay stereotypes: effeminate affectations, snarky attidues, an addiction to the Carpenters, best-friend female confidants, a love of show tunes, etc., etc., etc... A good story with a solid gay character will still make reference to what makes them gay: their same-sex attraction or partner or emotional bond.
Well, duh! That's what it means! :)
Yours,
Sylvan (Dave)
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@Sylvan
I think the issue is less about having gay characters do anything gay and more about the fact that when a gay character is included, oftentimes "gay" is the only thing that character does. They ARE the Gay Character. And when a story is written about a gay protagonist, many times the story is ONLY about being gay. For instance, a gay astronaut story which spent the whole story on how hard it was for him to make it as an astronaut despite being gay rather than a story about an interesting adventure had by an astronaut who happened to be gay.
I don't think this story is "just about being gay," but a lot of Johnny's conflict comes from that struggle with concealing his identity. I can see where it would be a borderline case, if someone were sensitive to that sort of thing. Still, any unrequited love would make for a similar story and, as has been pointed out, several UD stories have characters who just happen to be gay rather than Gay Characters.
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I think the issue is less about having gay characters do anything gay and more about the fact that when a gay character is included, oftentimes "gay" is the only thing that character does. They ARE the Gay Character. And when a story is written about a gay protagonist, many times the story is ONLY about being gay. For instance, a gay astronaut story which spent the whole story on how hard it was for him to make it as an astronaut despite being gay rather than a story about an interesting adventure had by an astronaut who happened to be gay.
I do understand your point, Scattercat but what about the point that so many authors state: why have a trait if it is not used or a part of the character? What I'm proposing is that the trait, while not having to be the driving point of the plot, does have to have an impact upon the character. When you are talking about someone being gay, and not just a gay stereotype or label, that element of who they are is going to be part of the story. Otherwise, it's just a label thrown into the character for diversity's sake.
Sort of like saying, "I've got a black friend" or "this is my Jewish pal, Andy" and then leaving it at that. It's a tag that identifies the character as something without backing it up: telling and not showing, in the writer's vernacular, if you see what I mean.
This isn't to say you can't have them as real bastards, negatives, villains, or even stereotypes. That's fine, too. But if a character is going to have a trait, it has to be more than a mere label is what I'm saying. Mr. DeRego, whom I am assuming is straight (although one should never assume), wrote very well on the subject and touched on points that showed this was more than just writing a stereotypical gay tragedy or "label" story.
Does that clarify what I was saying a bit more? :)
Yours,
Sylvan (Dave)
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I feel like I should say something deep and philosophical so as to not break the tension going on here.
But I can't think of anything.
So instead I'll just say that I really enjoyed this story and that the thought of a Union Dues TV show made me giddy as a school girl when the Jonas Brothers are in town :)
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Mr. DeRego, whom I am assuming is straight (although one should never assume), wrote very well on the subject and touched on points that showed this was more than just writing a stereotypical gay tragedy or "label" story.
I wouldn't argue that this story fell into that trap, though it did skirt the edges. It's just important not to have gay people portrayed as evil or as virtuous, but to have them as characters first and foremost. Otherwise, you're still labeling them; if stories about gay people are only about BEING gay, then they're not really full characters. Stories about straight characters don't revolve around BEING straight, even if they're romance stories. Straight romances are about the object of affection and the obstacles in the way of uniting with them.
Basically, having "gay" as the only and defining character trait someone has can be just as restricting as never using gay people at all. Their sexuality should only come into it if the story (as this one is) revolves around romance in some way.
The best example I can think of from pop culture right now is Dumbledore; the fact that Dumbledore was gay never came up in the books because it wasn't relevant. Does it explain some of his motivations and actions more clearly? Absolutely. But Dumbledore wasn't "the gay wizard." He was Dumbledore, who also happened to be gay in addition to trying to save the world. (There are much, much better examples out there; this is just the only one I can be fairly sure other people have heard of. Though honestly, "The Petrified Girl" over in Podcastle was also a pretty good story that had gay characters without being about their gayness.)
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When was it ever said Dumbledore was gay?
Just curious :)
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When was it ever said Dumbledore was gay?
Just curious :)
I thought Rowling stated it after the publication of ...the Deathly Hallows; supposedly the producers of the movies were looking to write in a female love-interest for Dumbledore's character (though one questions the necessity of this, as none such exists in the books).
...here's what Wikipedia has to say about it:
While speaking at Carnegie Hall, New York City on 19 October 2007, Rowling was asked by a young fan whether Dumbledore finds "true love". Rowling said that she always thought of Dumbledore as being gay and that he had fallen in love with Gellert Grindelwald; whether Grindelwald returned his affections, Rowling did not explicitly state. That love, she said, was Dumbledore's "great tragedy." Rowling explains this further by elaborating on the motivations behind Dumbledore's flirtation with the idea of wizard domination of Muggles: "He lost his moral compass completely when he fell in love and I think subsequently became very mistrustful of his own judgement in those matters so became quite asexual. He led a celibate and a bookish life."
...okay, here's the seed of what I was given to understand:
http://theknightshift.blogspot.com/2007/10/jk-rowling-says-albus-dumbledore-is.html
Rowling told the audience that while working on the planned sixth Potter film, "Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince," she spotted a reference in the script to a girl who once was of interest to Dumbledore. A note was duly passed to director David Yates, revealing the truth about her character.
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Thank you :)
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I wouldn't argue that this story fell into that trap, though it did skirt the edges. It's just important not to have gay people portrayed as evil or as virtuous, but to have them as characters first and foremost. Otherwise, you're still labeling them; if stories about gay people are only about BEING gay, then they're not really full characters. Stories about straight characters don't revolve around BEING straight, even if they're romance stories. Straight romances are about the object of affection and the obstacles in the way of uniting with them.
Basically, having "gay" as the only and defining character trait someone has can be just as restricting as never using gay people at all. Their sexuality should only come into it if the story (as this one is) revolves around romance in some way.
...snip...
(There are much, much better examples out there; this is just the only one I can be fairly sure other people have heard of. Though honestly, "The Petrified Girl" over in Podcastle was also a pretty good story that had gay characters without being about their gayness.)
Oh, I definitely concur Scattercat! But that's not what I was addressing; not exactly at any rate. Please feel free to point out if you think I'm splitting hairs, here, but I feel that what WillMoo was originally saying was impossible:
Why do stories with gay stories with gay characters only have plot lines that revolve around their gayness? Isn't it a bit of soft bigotry to assume that the characters are so one dimensional that that is the only issue going on in their lives?
To be gay is to have that trait influence every point in your life in the same way that being straight influences every point in your life at least insofar as in our current society it does. Since that is where the reader exists, that is a reality of the audience in my mind and an immutable fact at that.
This said, the plot lines will always revolve around how that character interacts with their environment. That environment will always be touched by the elements that the author brings in to their character. If the element is different from the default standard in such a way as to merit mentioning in a significant way, it really has to be a part of the plot. By definition, then, I feel that it is impossible -unless telling a tale in a completely gay-accepting society to an audience of gay-accepting people for whom this is the norm- to simply drop in a gay character and have it accepted that their actions and persona is to be taken for granted as a character trait that needs no further exploration in terms of the plot.
Now, to undercut what I've just written, I will admit that there are plenty of stories that have characters with laundry lists of traits that never are given exploration within the confines of a story. Horror stories spring to mind for this, although they are hardly unique in this manner. Having just watched "the most dangerous night on television" last night, though, this is easy to recall. ;) "Economy of character" doesn't always demand such rigor as I describe, above. Sometimes a trait is merely there to give the illusion of depth that the author doesn't have time (or word-space) to devote to give the story fuller impact or realism. I concede this.
What I will state to the contrary (and please don't think I'm laying out a straw man with the above, it was not my intent although I can see how it could appear to be so) is that if you have a main character, all of that character's traits should be relevant in some way -major or minor- to the plot, character interactions, character development, dialogue, internal dialogue, or actions taken during the progress of the story. In short, if you have a gay main character, there is no way for that "gayness" not have the story revolve around it or be touched by it in some fashion.
I would say this is generally a meaningful fashion, given how much sexual orientation impacts everyone's daily life in terms of:
- Who they are attracted to,
- Who they talk about when they mention, casually, who they like,
- Past significant others,
- The use of pronouns when talking about attractions,
- Children and spouses,
- Sex,
- Emotions,
- Interactions with society, the law, religion, friends, family, etc...
But, anyway, I think I've rambled enough in this post. ;)
I hope I've not been seen as uncivil, Scattercat. I know how these long posts can carry a lack of emotion (or even negative emotion) in text-on-screen while my intent has been to be friendly and conversational.
I definitely look forward to your reply and that of anyone else wishing to participate on either side of this discussion!
Yours,
Sylvan (Dave)
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So all stories about straight people have to mention that they're straight, or at least provide a member of the opposite sex for them to be attracted to? I don't think that's true at all. Many people are straight in stories and never have even a thought of "Whoa, s/he's attractive!" Thus, I don't see why a character being gay would have to come up in the plot of the story as a matter of course. Being gay shouldn't be more visible than being straight; to hold up gayness as something "special" or "unusual" is to be, however mildly, marginalizing and discriminatory.
I mean, you're basically saying that we can't have a gay character unless that character's gayness impacts the plot. Why is being gay different from being straight in that way? Because only ~10% of the population is gay? That's like saying you can't have a character be black or Mexican in a story set in the USA (where such races are, for now, lesser in number individually than Caucasian) unless that character's race affects the outcome of the story. I just don't think you have a tenable position, either ideologically or from a literary standpoint.
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So all stories about straight people have to mention that they're straight, or at least provide a member of the opposite sex for them to be attracted to? I don't think that's true at all. Many people are straight in stories and never have even a thought of "Whoa, s/he's attractive!" Thus, I don't see why a character being gay would have to come up in the plot of the story as a matter of course. Being gay shouldn't be more visible than being straight; to hold up gayness as something "special" or "unusual" is to be, however mildly, marginalizing and discriminatory.
I mean, you're basically saying that we can't have a gay character unless that character's gayness impacts the plot. Why is being gay different from being straight in that way? Because only ~10% of the population is gay? That's like saying you can't have a character be black or Mexican in a story set in the USA (where such races are, for now, lesser in number individually than Caucasian) unless that character's race affects the outcome of the story. I just don't think you have a tenable position, either ideologically or from a literary standpoint.
I think you've both had plenty of good points so far, but I really agree with scattercat here.
And I still have no good insights of my own :) lol
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So all stories about straight people have to mention that they're straight, or at least provide a member of the opposite sex for them to be attracted to? I don't think that's true at all. Many people are straight in stories and never have even a thought of "Whoa, s/he's attractive!" Thus, I don't see why a character being gay would have to come up in the plot of the story as a matter of course. Being gay shouldn't be more visible than being straight; to hold up gayness as something "special" or "unusual" is to be, however mildly, marginalizing and discriminatory.
I mean, you're basically saying that we can't have a gay character unless that character's gayness impacts the plot. Why is being gay different from being straight in that way? Because only ~10% of the population is gay? That's like saying you can't have a character be black or Mexican in a story set in the USA (where such races are, for now, lesser in number individually than Caucasian) unless that character's race affects the outcome of the story. I just don't think you have a tenable position, either ideologically or from a literary standpoint.
I'm with you all the way here. Unless the author indicates otherwise, I'm going to assume (and I'd bet I'm far from alone in this) a character is heterosexual simply because that's the "norm" (read: statistically most likely). Or maybe it's because I'm hetero myself... would any homosexuals care to weigh in with data points of their own?
Similarly, I will figure that a character is caucasian unless indicated otherwise. It's on the author to let us know these things if it's germane to the story (and if it isn't, they can go ahead and pull a Heinlein, like revealing four pages from the end of Starship Troopers that Johnny Rico is Filipino. ;D It doesn't change the story a bit, but it has a bit of fun with the reader's assumed preconceptions)
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I liked this one, it showed a good insight into the throes of the heart that is teenage love/lust. And I think this episode(and the call to brains asking people to come up with reasons why UD is different from other superhero stories) made me realize why UD is so good. They are stories about people with superpowers, not superpowered people. The people, and their stories, come first. Comparatively speaking, Heroes is the best reference. The characters change little, grow less, and are more known by their superpowers than by anything else. There is about 5-10% of each UD story taken up by power use, and the rest is all story. Powers should be the spice of superhero stories, not the main dish.
On the issue of stories with gay characters but not about the characters being gay, I am reminded of Sleepy Joe, in which Roger is almost definitely gay, but if it is mentioned at all, it is not a focus of the story.
That said, this story is not focused on Johnny's being gay, its just a good, modern twist on the puppy love/crush trope. Its a good twist, because coming out is traumatic, and could cause the types of stress we saw in this tale.
My only gripe with the story is that two teens were running through NYC, then there was a large bang, and the girl was on the ground, her head smoking. No one thought this might be interesting for the several seconds/minutes it took for that guy with the phone to show up? Just a quibble.
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My only gripe with the story is that two teens were running through NYC, then there was a large bang, and the girl was on the ground, her head smoking. No one thought this might be interesting for the several seconds/minutes it took for that guy with the phone to show up? Just a quibble.
I guess there weren't any tourists nearby at the moment. ;)
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Well, the "writing gays" side thread was really interesting to read. I must live in a very liberal city, because to me the only reason Johnny's gayness was important was to explain his love-interest choices (girl vs guy). If there had been no love interest, then it wouldn't have mattered, one way or another.
Basically, Johnny is going through what every teenager goes through; love/lust, confusion, alienation, anger at his parents for not being supportive. There is nothing intrinsically gay about any of these things. All those aspects of the story could have just as easily been explored if Johnny had some other "social stigma" - and honestly, what teen doesn't feel that they have some social stigma or other (geek, nerd, spaz, ugly, etc....)? So gayness in itself is not necessary for the story, except to explain the love interest.
That said, I liked the story. My favourite part was the end interaction between Johnny and Tam. Johnny played it just right. He opened himself up, got his answer with Tam's obliviousness (if Tam was interested, he would not have missed that cue!), and accepted it as it was. There was no need to push the point any further. Best of all, the fact that both Tam and Johnny are guys was irrelevant to the emotions. This scene could have played out the same way regardless of the gender of the two characters. That, in my mind is what made this a good story; I could identify with the main character despite the fact that, on the surface, he is so different from me.
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Basically, Johnny is going through what every teenager goes through; love/lust, confusion, alienation, anger at his parents for not being supportive. There is nothing intrinsically gay about any of these things. All those aspects of the story could have just as easily been explored if Johnny had some other "social stigma" - and honestly, what teen doesn't feel that they have some social stigma or other (geek, nerd, spaz, ugly, etc....)? So gayness in itself is not necessary for the story, except to explain the love interest.
I get what you're saying, but in my opinion I'm not sure that another social stigma could be substituted so easily for another. For me much of the interest in the story came from imagining what it would be like to be gay and have a crush on a straight and oblivious classmate/coworker. And the climax of the story involves Johnny thinking about coming out, at least among his teammates, and that event is a huge lifechanging event not quite like any other. Even if he's pretty sure that everyone would take it in stride, that doesn't mean it would be easy or that it wouldn't affect his relationships with the others.
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This was a great story like all the union dues. the only thing i dont like about it was that they never really explained all the powers of his crew and that the others in johnny's crew didn't really have an important part but over all this was another great story.
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Loved it. Keep the Union Dues stories coming, Jeff.
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I enjoyed this story. Just two comments:
1) I live and work in Harlem, so a correction: The Polo Grounds are up in the 150's, not at 110th and Lenox. There is a NYCHA development around there, but it's King Towers. Not a big deal, just in the name of making your local details more accurate.
2) Re: Gay characters. As several folks have mentioned, I wish that there were more stories with "characters who happen to be gay" rather than "Gay Characters" (characters for whom the main action of the story revolves around their gayness). And I don't count the other 3 Team Shakaragaki stories as containing a gay character, because Johnny was closeted. We queer folk are multidimensional like everybody else. If asked to tell you my life story, the fact that I'm queer would certainly be a part of that story, but it would certainly not be the overarching conflict in my life. This is true for most LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgendered) people I know. There is a time and a place for coming out stories like this one, which I thoroughly enjoyed, but I wish that LGBT characters were more often included in other contexts as well.
Megan Rose Gedris, a wonderful webcomics writer/artist wrote an extremely informative article about how to write gay characters. I would highly suggest any author considering including one in a story check it out: http://www.squidoo.com/writing-gay-characters
And I would encourage any author to include LGBT characters in her/his work, even if they're not the main character of the story. We're 10% of the population!
Also, if any listeners here are unfamiliar with Gedris' comic, I Was Kidnapped by Lesbian Pirates from Outer Space, you should totally check it out. It is every bit as awesome as it sounds. http://rosalarian.com/lesbianpirates/
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There were three Union Dues stories with a gay character that didn't revolve around his gayness earlier in the series. This isn't the only story Johnny appears in, after all.
Yeah, but was he visibly gay at all in those stories?
When gay people, at least, say we want stories with gay characters that don't revolve around the gay, we mean we want the gay to be at least mentioned at some point. It's something of a massive copout to just keep it to subtext - see, for instance, Dumbledore, whom I see has already been brought up.
The assumed-to-be-straight thing is all well and good, but it's not relevant to the problem, which is simply one of representation. We want visible gay characters. We want people we can point to in the media who are living lives that are clearly gay and clearly have purpose outside their sexuality, because we are tired of other people assuming that everyone is straight. Or that gay people are only gay people and nothing else.
Sylvan, you've made some good points, but there is plenty of middle ground between "gay is the plot" and "gay has nothing to do with the plot". And the fact remains that that middle ground is not explored nearly enough, at least in mainstream stories.
Gwenicus - aaaah, Gedris! All her stuff is amazing. Definitely second the recommendation, and add Yu+Me Dream - if you can get past the old art in the early chapters, the story is utterly fantastic (and despite what it may look like from the outset, utterly unique).
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I am thrilled to hear that there may some day be Union Dues on my screen. Provided, of course, that They don't c*ck it up like They do everything else...
Also glad to hear Mr. DeRego is back up to speed (and then some, apparently!) Live long and prosper, sir!
And keep writing more Union Dues!