Escape Artists
The Lounge at the End of the Universe => The Writing Forum => Topic started by: drowemos on August 11, 2010, 08:42:08 AM
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Where I would I go to post a "Writer wanted" notice?
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Depends upon what you want written. What do you want written?
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I want a comic script written. I publish webcomics (www.exiern.com www.bladebunny.com www.knitprincess.com). I am looking to bring some more diverse talent into the writing process and off load some of the work. I feel it's a not good to have too many comics written by one person. I have posted on the standard webcomic boards and gotten a few replies but I was really hoping to recruit view points other than my own. At this point all I have gotten are people with bios that look plagiarized from my personal autobiography. So I though I would try to reach beyond the webcomic community.
On a related note I was planing on offering half ownership of the project in loo of pay. For the webcomics community this is considered a good deal since I would be paying for the artist and other production things and comic script writing is a pretty light work. However the reality of this arrangement is that there would be no pay for a year and only a 50/50 shot of any pay after that since webcomics don't make money in the first year traditionally. Would this ownership sharing arrangement be considered an insult if I posted on a more traditional writing venue?
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I want a comic script written. I publish webcomics (www.exiern.com www.bladebunny.com www.knitprincess.com). I am looking to bring some more diverse talent into the writing process and off load some of the work. I feel it's a not good to have too many comics written by one person. I have posted on the standard webcomic boards and gotten a few replies but I was really hoping to recruit view points other than my own. At this point all I have gotten are people with bios that look plagiarized from my personal autobiography. So I though I would try to reach beyond the webcomic community.
On a related note I was planing on offering half ownership of the project in loo of pay. For the webcomics community this is considered a good deal since I would be paying for the artist and other production things and comic script writing is a pretty light work. However the reality of this arrangement is that there would be no pay for a year and only a 50/50 shot of any pay after that since webcomics don't make money in the first year traditionally. Would this ownership sharing arrangement be considered an insult if I posted on a more traditional writing venue?
Wait, wait, wait a cotton-picking minute... You're going to pay an artist, but expect the writer to work for the future promise of maybe pay in a year? Yeah, good luck with that. Any writer who foolishly signs onto an arrangement like this is worth exactly what they're being paid.
Also, I was going to politely correct your use of "loo" to "lieu" since loo is slang for toilet and lieu means "in exchange for" but I think you might have described your deal pretty accurately with "loo".
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A quick Googling indicates that normal rates of pay for comics scripting are somewhere around $50-$100 per page. Assuming you're going on a skeletal structure of, say, two updates per month, that's still $1200-$2400 of work that you want for free.
My advice is to make some friends and start a real collaboration. You're not going to get a lot of people signing on to your comic "for the love" if you have to tell them who you are and what you do beforehand. If you were, say, Alex Ross or someone, then you could probably have your pick of willing freebie-writers.
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I would say this: there's never too much of your own work out there. If you think you're doing too much, then pare down and focus your creative energies on one or two things. Maybe update less frequently on the comics you aren't as enamored with.
Being a creative person, getting your work out there, and finding time to do it all in is HARD. I'm about to have to decide between writing and exercise -- and unfortunately, exercise is probably going to win (for the first time in my life, I got tired climbing up one set of stairs -- admittedly it was 1.5 stories, but still, that should NOT happen). It takes me half an hour on average to submit a story because I have to find the market, format the story for that market, submit it, then put it on my spreadsheet and my follow-up calendar. Editing takes a long time too. In fact, just writing is time-consuming, but on the bright side, when you're on a roll, you're on a ROLL.
If you're looking for collaborators, why not turn to your fans? Ask them to write a week or two worth of scripts for you to review, using your characters -- basically, fanfic. When you find someone -- or a few someones -- that you like, discuss bringing them on to write story arcs. After all, Stan Lee doesn't write every single Spiderman or Fantastic Four comic. And Gene Roddenberry (before his death) certainly wasn't involved in every single Star Trek tie-in novel. If you do go this route, though, you CANNOT neglect the clause in your call for scripts that "portions of submitted scripts may appear in the comic, and anything submitted becomes property of Drowemos Enterprises (or whatever your company is)".
If you do end up bringing on a new writer that you want to transfer some ownership to, you're going to have to pay that person somehow, and the promise of future riches isn't always enough. But it might be. You will have to be fair, though; either pay the artist and the writer, or don't pay either one but offer them a similar deal to each other. You say comic writing is light work, and maybe it is, but if you think about it, both words and pictures are equally important. The comic "Everything Jake" was both well-written and well-drawn (by the same guy), but there were parts of it where the author only wrote the story as text. I have to admit I skipped over those. Similarly, if I'm watching a movie and there's a fight scene, if I don't care about how I got to this point then it doesn't matter how many awesome effects were included.
These are just my thoughts. You may have others.
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Let me address a few things about the pay scale.
1) A standard comic book artist will put in 8 hours on a comic book page. A standard comic book writer will put in half an hour per comic book page. This disparity of effort is why artist get more that writers.
2) Since 75% of a comic book page are simply instructions for a single person, the artist, and will never see print the standards on the instructions are pretty low. In fact the marvel style of writing was for the artist draws the art first and the writer simply ads the dialog to the picture after the fact. Only about 5 sentences on average of the writers work make it in to publications. At $100 per page that a rate of about $1.33 per word or $.25 per letter. Yes some people do get paid that much but they are big names that can attract and audience.
3) Traditionally in comics artist have been work for hire getting paid a flat rate where writers have been co owners of the comic making their money on the success of the comic. This is just the way that it has been done.
4) In comic art attracts readers writing bring them back for more. The immediate success of a comic is due to the artists work not due to anything the writer does. However the long term success rests on the writers shoulders. Thus the parties are paid according what they are doing for the comic.
5) The reason I can't just put these comics on the back burner is that if I do I loose a good artist who is working on the comic. Artist need to be kept occupied or they stray. I have enough money to pay 4 artists right now but only have the time for 3 comics. So I need something to keep the 4th artist busy because it's very hard to find a good artist.
I could probably pay something for a writer but $100 for a half hours work and 5 sentences? Might as well just hire a team of Harvard educated lawyers to do the job, it would be cheaper.
However the upshot of all this seem to by this proposition will not be well received among the greater writer community. Fair enough. I though I would give it a try.
PS: As for lieu/loo. I am a card carrying dyslexic so I guess it's time to play that card.
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If it was that easy, you could do it yourself.
A good writer has honed his/her craft over years of practice and work, comics writers no less than anyone else. Personally, I find that good writing can carry a comic far, far more than good art can. I will cheerfully read butt-ugly drawings with a truly clever and gifted writer behind them, but my capacity for looking at pretty pictures pretty much begins and ends with Dixit.
Let me just make a brief counterpoint:
If you want someone to help you do your work, offering them nothing, telling them it's a good deal, and then lecturing them on how easy their job is and how little they deserve any pay at all is probably not the best way to go about accomplishing your goal. Imagine walking into a bar full of construction workers and offering to let them sleep in the guest bedroom for a year if they'll come and build you a house, then telling them that lifting and carrying bricks is really something even a trained monkey could do and you don't even know why anyone would bother to pay a contractor for anything. Now try to imagine getting out of that bar with all of your teeth intact.
Lucky for you, we writers are much more easygoing (and also tend to be pretty much welterweights.)
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Valid points Scattercat and it would be compelling if you weren't arguing for $100 for a half hours work. Writing is important, valuable and a skilled task that takes time to prefect. I would have to argue with the premise that it should be paid on the same scale as microscopic neurosurgery.
Look at it this way. What I if I were offering to have a story you write illustrated by a professional artist. This illustration process costs thousands of dollars to implement plus a good deal of time on my part for management of the process. You would own the finished product and could do what ever you wanted with it and in fact I will help you publish and distribute the work. The only thing I asked in return was for a percentage of any profits you made off of the illustrated story.
This is essentially what I am offering to do. Isn't denying me a percentage of the take undervaluing the work I am putting in to this project? Granted the basic building blocks of the story have already been laid down. You are not creating something purely from your own imagination so it's not the perfect situation. And perhaps you should be compensated for that difficulty. Not however $100 per half hour I would say. And it really doesn't sound like a teeth kicking situation to me.
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A good writer has honed his/her craft over years of practice and work, comics writers no less than anyone else. Personally, I find that good writing can carry a comic far, far more than good art can. I will cheerfully read butt-ugly drawings with a truly clever and gifted writer behind them, but my capacity for looking at pretty pictures pretty much begins and ends with Dixit.
Which I suppose explains the popularity of XKCD, Abstruse Goose, and Doghouse Diaries -- the art ain't great, but the writing is.
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Valid points Scattercat and it would be compelling if you weren't arguing for $100 for a half hours work. Writing is important, valuable and a skilled task that takes time to prefect. I would have to argue with the premise that it should be paid on the same scale as microscopic neurosurgery.
Look at it this way. What I if I were offering to have a story you write illustrated by a professional artist. This illustration process costs thousands of dollars to implement plus a good deal of time on my part for management of the process. You would own the finished product and could do what ever you wanted with it and in fact I will help you publish and distribute the work. The only thing I asked in return was for a percentage of any profits you made off of the illustrated story.
This is essentially what I am offering to do. Isn't denying me a percentage of the take undervaluing the work I am putting in to this project? Granted the basic building blocks of the story have already been laid down. You are not creating something purely from your own imagination so it's not the perfect situation. And perhaps you should be compensated for that difficulty. Not however $100 per half hour I would say. And it really doesn't sound like a teeth kicking situation to me.
Since it ONLY takes a half hour, why, in the time it took you to again insult all here who make writing their profession with your justification for no pay and insistence that writing is not important or difficult, you would have an easy week's worth of comics and not have had to pay anyone anything.
Seems like simple economics.
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So take two hours and bang out a month's worth of writing for a comic. Oh, wait, it's harder and takes longer than that. Gosh, silly me expecting market rates for my work.
Now, if we were close friends and I was a big proponent for your whatever-it-is project, I'd have no problem working for little to no remuneration. Hell, I give away a story every day at Mirrorshards, no questions asked. But that's not what you're asking for; you want to hire someone, and you asked if offering no money at all was fair or tempting. The answer is a flat "no."
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If it was that easy, you could do it yourself.
A good writer has honed his/her craft over years of practice and work, comics writers no less than anyone else. Personally, I find that good writing can carry a comic far, far more than good art can. I will cheerfully read butt-ugly drawings with a truly clever and gifted writer behind them, but my capacity for looking at pretty pictures pretty much begins and ends with Dixit.
Let me just make a brief counterpoint:
If you want someone to help you do your work, offering them nothing, telling them it's a good deal, and then lecturing them on how easy their job is and how little they deserve any pay at all is probably not the best way to go about accomplishing your goal. Imagine walking into a bar full of construction workers and offering to let them sleep in the guest bedroom for a year if they'll come and build you a house, then telling them that lifting and carrying bricks is really something even a trained monkey could do and you don't even know why anyone would bother to pay a contractor for anything. Now try to imagine getting out of that bar with all of your teeth intact.
Lucky for you, we writers are much more easygoing (and also tend to be pretty much welterweights.)
This. And you do realize that you're in "The Writing Forum", yes? So I'm not sure what you intend to gain by telling those of us interested in writing that we ought to do it for free and be thankful for the work.
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A good writer has honed his/her craft over years of practice and work, comics writers no less than anyone else. Personally, I find that good writing can carry a comic far, far more than good art can. I will cheerfully read butt-ugly drawings with a truly clever and gifted writer behind them, but my capacity for looking at pretty pictures pretty much begins and ends with Dixit.
Which I suppose explains the popularity of XKCD, Abstruse Goose, and Doghouse Diaries -- the art ain't great, but the writing is.
Absolutely. The art of a comic is an important component, but if I had to choose between great art and great writing I'd choose the writing anyday. The art supports the plot described by the writing. And with comic writing, there is more just the text on the screen to be written, someone has to determine what actually HAPPENS, and while that is depicted by the artists, someone is writing the plot as well, even that which does not turn into text.
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Again a few clarification.
It takes two hours to write 3 to 4 pages of comics. I know because I write 4 comics currently and I can crank out a page of script for each one in the time I get up before work. A month's worth of comics updating at 3 pages a week would takes about 8 hours or about a full days work. I have done that many times. Granted this is the super loose scripts that are common in the webcomics arena.
Why don't I just write it myself? Because I think having diversity of viewpoint is a good thing. For example I www.knitprincess.com is under the profit sharing agreement I detailed above. Why don't I write the knitting comic myself? Because I don't knit. But it's a smart business move to try and tap into to the knitting market.
This was the point of looking for a writer to find someone who could capture a different viewpoint.
But, anyway, you say a full partnership deal is a non starter. Fine I am not rigid in this. However $100 per comic pages is also a non-starter for me. It would kill the project and is more that I am paying the artist. So what's the arrangement that would be reasonable without breaking the budget. Keep in mind that a standard comic script has fair amount of white space on the page and very loose standards for description like this:
http://images.darkhorse.com/darkhorse08/company/submissions/DHScriptFormatGuides.pdf
Would $5 a page on a work for hire contract work? That equates to about 3 cents per word on a standard comic script page, which, by the way is what escape pod pays on average. I am a little confused by the insistence that I pay 20 times more that escape pod.
Is there a combination of say 25% net profits and a $1 per page that would be acceptable?
I mean, yes it would be cool if we could all be paid $200 an hour for our work. I know people WANT $200+ per hour for their work but what are people willing to ACCEPT for their work. For an independent producer on a small web project that is $200 per hour an insane rate.
Also the original intent of this tread was to find places to post. Does anyone know of any good places to post an ad?
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It takes two hours to write 3 to 4 pages of comics. I know because I write 4 comics currently and I can crank out a page of script for each one in the time I get up before work.
Not to be unkind, but I read your comics from the links you provided. I could tell.
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FWIW, yes, a token payment is preferable to no payment.
Unlike Scattercat, I haven't read your comics, but I'm a fan of the medium. And it's a very collaborative medium. It thrives on the collaboration between words, story, and pictures. Sometimes moreso than even film/television. Suggesting that one takes more time to do than the other is really selling both the artist and the writer short.
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See, here's where I'm having some trouble (the bolding is mine):
First you say:
On a related note I was planing on offering half ownership of the project in loo of pay. For the webcomics community this is considered a good deal since I would be paying for the artist and other production things and comic script writing is a pretty light work. However the reality of this arrangement is that there would be no pay for a year and only a 50/50 shot of any pay after that since webcomics don't make money in the first year traditionally.
If the comic fails after the first year then, well, fifty percent of nothing is (cue Jayne Cobb impression) "let me do the math here... nothin' into nothin'...carry the nothin'..."
So according to your estimates, with a month's worth of comic writing taking eight hours, you're asking someone to put in at least a year's worth of work -- 96 hours -- for potentially... zero compensation. While your artists get paid up front, even if their art doesn't draw in any readers. You also offer no real information about what this half-ownership entails. Let's say that, in a year, the comic is still around and making money. From what revenue do the writers get paid? A tip jar on the site? Money that comes in from google/banner ads? Tee shirt sales?
Is there a combination of say 25% net profits and a $1 per page that would be acceptable?
Again, define "net profits." That phrase alone raises some red flags without clarification. Aside from (I assume) the artists' pay, what else are you subtracting from the money that comes into the site before you'd pay your writers? Domain/hosting fees? Advertising on other sites? Will you show writers that might be interested a detailed breakdown of how you'll figure "net profits?" What about a look at what the writer for the knitting comic is making right now? Or, if that hasn't been up for a year, what you anticipate his or her pay will be once the comic becomes profitable? How much money will the comic have to make before the writer gets paid under the profit-sharing model?
I'm not trying to be combative here, but you're essentially asking a writer to put in two-plus weeks' worth of work for free (or, to fill the glass halfway, asking them to wait a year before they get paid for those two-plus weeks (maybe)), and that's part of what has people raising brows.
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I'm not trying to be combative here, but you're essentially asking a writer to put in two-plus weeks' worth of work for free (or, to fill the glass halfway, asking them to wait a year before they get paid for those two-plus weeks (maybe)), and that's what has people raising brows.
Well, that and the whole "Yeah, but writing is super-easy and you could pound out a whole year of comics in a single bathroom break" attitude. I don't even write webcomics and that's irritating me. I put out a hundred words every day (nearly) without fail, and I take a good 20-30 minutes over those hundred words because it's important to me to do it well; that's how long it takes to craft words appropriately, let alone tally up the balance of words to pictures, when to talk a lot and when to rely on visual storytelling, etc. It's the patent disregard for the skills involved that rubs me the wrong way, even ignoring the downright serf-like wages proposed.
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I'm not trying to be combative here, but you're essentially asking a writer to put in two-plus weeks' worth of work for free (or, to fill the glass halfway, asking them to wait a year before they get paid for those two-plus weeks (maybe)), and that's what has people raising brows.
Well, that and the whole "Yeah, but writing is super-easy and you could pound out a whole year of comics in a single bathroom break" attitude. I don't even write webcomics and that's irritating me. I put out a hundred words every day (nearly) without fail, and I take a good 20-30 minutes over those hundred words because it's important to me to do it well; that's how long it takes to craft words appropriately, let alone tally up the balance of words to pictures, when to talk a lot and when to rely on visual storytelling, etc. It's the patent disregard for the skills involved that rubs me the wrong way, even ignoring the downright serf-like wages proposed.
Oh, god, absolutely. I should have said "part of what has people raising brows..." and I'll edit the post to reflect that.
I've been thinking "What Scattercat said" through a lot of the flash contest, and you've pretty much summed up my thoughts on drowemos' dismissal of writers and the writing process in this thread, only with less frothing at the mouth than I'd do. :D
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Oh for pete's sake. This is insane.
I am not dismissing writers work. I am looking for a writer because I know it will increase the quality of the comic. I am trying to be as honest and upfront about the process as possible. I was the one who asked in the first place if a join ownership agreement would be considered an insult. I was worried about the deal and I wanted advice. I am trying to look for a way to get a quality writer and offer them a deal that they will like. I am not trying to dismiss anyone.
But the fact is a standard webcomic script pages contains 300 words, perhaps print comic are more detailed but webcomics are very loose scripts. If you are telling me that 300 words deserves $100 a page a pay rate 5 to 10 times even the most lucrative markets I question your connection to this plane of existence. Serious what color is the sky on your planet because here on earth no one in their right mind would agree to that sort of pay rate.
I run under the assumption that 300 words is relatively quick to write where an artist has to take at least 8 to 10 hours for each page. If you are telling me it takes a professional writer 1.6 minutes for each word those better be some pretty amazing words. Again here on planet earth if something takes longer to do you generally get paid more money for it. So in earth comics the artists get paid more per page because the earth writers can generate 300 words pretty quickly. The only possible explanation I can come up with is on your plane of existence you use some strange symbolic mathematical hybrid language that alters the very fabric of reality and that's why it takes you so long on each word you write.
I suggested 3 cents a word same pay rate as Escape Pod and Clark's World. Not good enough. I also suggested 1.5 cents a page with a possible share of the revenues. Seeing that two of my comics NET about $400 a month that's not chump change but again I didn't mention that because it is a gamble and i don't want to mislead people. Places like the Drabblecast pay 1.5 cent per word with no profit sharing. I though that I was offering a good deal. But, no, that is also an insult.
I was not trying to insult or dismiss anyone but I must say your terms are unacceptable and quite possible the early stages of a undiagnosed psychological disorder. I wanted to find out where to look for a professional writer and what a reasonable deal to offer was. What I got was beaten around like a pinata. If this is what's it like to work with a professional writer I think I will go over to a fan fiction site offer someone a grilled cheese sandwich to write the script and call it a day.
I know I am going to regret this post tomorrow and I apologize in an advance for my acerbic tone. I am just at my wits end here. I was looking for help instead got my work and integrity insulted. It kind of sucks.
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I'm not arguing specifics. I'm arguing tone. You came on here with the attitude of "Writing is easy and the artist does all the hard work," and you said as much repeatedly. You might not have intended to, but so far a good half-dozen people have heard it that way. That suggests it's not some sort of weird quirk from me and jrderego. I have no idea what a fair rate for webcomics writing would be (though "Hey, can you write a year of my comic for no pay at all?" isn't going to win any prizes as Most Desirable Opening Offer). My point is that you'll get a lot more positive response if you come in with a bit more... well, call it flattery if you want. Be nice to people if you want them to help you. Talk up how hard writing is and how you'd really like to get someone whose work you admire and yadda yadda yadda. This whole, "Well, I crank out a page while I take a whizz in the morning so how hard can it be?" stuff is not going to win you any shiny new writer-friends.
Frankly, if all you want is content on the cheap, try going to Textbroker or Mechanical Turk. You'll find content farms aplenty where people will cheerfully give you mediocre scripts for pennies per page.
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*reads further out of sheer morbid curiosity*
Oh! Hahahaha! That explains why the comic name sounded so familiar.
Yeah, I think I'll pass on the opportunity to write for a mercantile TG/TF fetish comic with nudie-pics behind a paywall. This explains a lot that was weird about this whole thing. Good luck with that, drow-dude. Peace out.
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I run under the assumption that 300 words is relatively quick to write where an artist has to take at least 8 to 10 hours for each page. If you are telling me it takes a professional writer 1.6 minutes for each word those better be some pretty amazing words. Again here on planet earth if something takes longer to do you generally get paid more money for it. So in earth comics the artists get paid more per page because the earth writers can generate 300 words pretty quickly. The only possible explanation I can come up with is on your plane of existence you use some strange symbolic mathematical hybrid language that alters the very fabric of reality and that's why it takes you so long on each word you write.
Translation: "writing is really, really easy. I mean really. No thought at all. Hell, I learned how to write in elementary school. Drawing though, now that shit takes talent, the best "art" I ever did in elementary school was eating paste and weaving yarn, so I don't claim to be able to draw... I don't get why you crazy uppity writers think not getting paid or being paid in exposure (which has no monetary value on this or any other world in this or any other universe) is such a bad gig. You writer types have to start somewhere, right? Shit. 1.6 minutes per word is a long time. I wonder how long it takes to look up "loo" on the internet to make sure I know how to use it in a sentence? Ahh, who cares, because I measure quality by the time it takes to choose an individual word, not which words are chosen and why...
On a less caustic note. Thank you for illuminating, once again, the true soul of the DIY crowd. Where "content wants to be free" means let's all work for nothing and eat unicorn farts for dinner and shelter ourselves beneath forum comments from fans who can't wait for us to give them more free stuff. And when producers of content say "no, you pay me or you get nothing, you lose, good day sir." we get no end of grief.
And finally advice. Go post your comics listing at ralan.com, you'll get ten bazillion submissions from amateur writers a day and you'll have plenty of choice of new writers to exploit. Maybe you'll get a couple that will take the "I'll pay you in a year, if I feel like it" deal too.
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In fairness, I'm pretty okay with the idea of giving away art for free if that's what one wants to do with it. If it were a friend of mine doing a webcomic, I'd cheerfully volunteer an afternoon or evening each week to write a script for him and see where the project led us.
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You know I really hate coming in to polls and moderating disputes. (Hmm maybe I took the wrong job). I think some interesting discussion could result out of this (and some already has), but if it becomes a trading of insults, what is the fun in that? The honest reactions and criticism, the defense and clarifications, even the spirited debate, is fine. The personal insults back and forth need to stop.
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I'd like to clarify that I really bear no particular malice, but I am also sincere in my desire not to write for any webcomic that has nude drawings of its characters for sale to fans on a subscription basis. I hope Drow-Fella finds someone to help him write his comics (and I really think that, y'know, not coming across as completely dismissive of the effort involved will help.)
Let's talk about whether giving stuff away for free is awesome or not. I think it's awesome as long as you realize that it's not actually a path to earning lots of money via real-world cheat code.
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I run under the assumption that 300 words is relatively quick to write where an artist has to take at least 8 to 10 hours for each page. If you are telling me it takes a professional writer 1.6 minutes for each word those better be some pretty amazing words. Again here on planet earth if something takes longer to do you generally get paid more money for it. So in earth comics the artists get paid more per page because the earth writers can generate 300 words pretty quickly. The only possible explanation I can come up with is on your plane of existence you use some strange symbolic mathematical hybrid language that alters the very fabric of reality and that's why it takes you so long on each word you write.
Actually, no, writing 300 good words isn't all that easy. The fact that you've come onto a writers' board and suggested that it is is pretty damned insulting.
I suggested 3 cents a word same pay rate as Escape Pod and Clark's World.
If you're talking about Clarkesworld, (http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/) actually, they pay ten cents a word (http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/submissions/) -- twice the minimum SFWA professional rate.
Not good enough. I also suggested 1.5 cents a page with a possible share of the revenues. Seeing that two of my comics NET about $400 a month that's not chump change but again I didn't mention that because it is a gamble and i don't want to mislead people. Places like the Drabblecast pay 1.5 cent per word with no profit sharing. I though that I was offering a good deal. But, no, that is also an insult.
With places like Drabblecast, Escape Pod, and Clarkesworld, the writers get paid up front. And they retain the copyright to their work, so if they'd like to sell it elsewhere as a reprint, they can get paid for it again. If no one ever reads their story, or if the website goes down in a year due to lack of readership/listenership, they still have something to show for it. You're offering a penny and a half a page.
I'm currently shopping around a 7000-word story. In standard manuscript format, that's about 250 words per page. So, about 28 pages. Under your model, that story would get 42 cents from you, with any future payment being a big ol' maybe. It's great that two of your comics are bringing in $400 net a month. But you've already stated it's going to take a year before the writer would see any of that, and even still, it's only a maybe. 42 cents has to last a year. Or more.
I know I am going to regret this post tomorrow and I apologize in an advance for my acerbic tone. I am just at my wits end here. I was looking for help instead got my work and integrity insulted. It kind of sucks.
It kind of sucks that you came onto a writers' board and insulted our craft, too. Writing's not easy. Several people in this thread have said that to you, and yet you've come back again and again saying things like "The only possible explanation I can come up with is on your plane of existence you use some strange symbolic mathematical hybrid language that alters the very fabric of reality and that's why it takes you so long on each word you write."
If you know you're being acerbic, apologizing in advance really isn't the way to go. You hit post anyway, knowing that you've lashed out. In the future I'd suggest walking away from the keyboard for a while when an online discussion gets you that upset. As it is right now, potential writers for your comic googling "drowemos" could come across this thread and decide they don't want to work with someone who's going to insult writers.
It's entirely possible that payment for webcomic writers works differently than payment for shorty story writers. I'm not disputing that. But two out of the three webcomics you publish have an ongoing story behind them (and for all I know, the knitting one might, too. I didn't look far enough to see). Story, for me, takes crafting and planning. If I'm developing characters and writing their dialogue, it had better be believable, and whatever actions they kick off in strip #1 had better still make sense come strip #101. So, yeah, a lot more thought would go into those 300 words than, I dunno, "Panel 1: Jim tells a knock-knock joke. Panel 2: Sally laughs. Panel 3: EXPLOSION!"
And, even in webcomics that don't have ongoing stories, to be honest, I'm not there for the art. XKCD has already been invoked. I've been reading Penny Arcade since pretty close to the start. Look at how far Gabe's art has come over the years. I didn't keep reading it to watch him grow as an artist; I kept reading because the strip was funny. Because of the writing.
Lastly,
If this is what's it like to work with a professional writer I think I will go over to a fan fiction site offer someone a grilled cheese sandwich to write the script and call it a day.
Professional writers are looking for some respect. You've come onto this board and, through your own words, showed us you don't have much of that. Which strikes me as strange, because back in one of your earlier posts, you admitted that it's the writing more than the the art that carries a webcomic in the long-term. So on some level, you seem to acknowledge that writing is an important part of the process. And yet, you're offering the equivalent of a grilled cheese sandwich for that effort, with only the possibility of getting paid more in the future. (Actually, up here in Boston a grilled cheese sandwich is going to run me $3-$5. A penny and a half a page will hardly even get me a slice of bread.)
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With places like Drabblecast, Escape Pod, and Clarkesworld, the writers get paid up front. And they retain the copyright to their work, so if they'd like to sell it elsewhere as a reprint, they can get paid for it again. If no one ever reads their story, or if the website goes down in a year due to lack of readership/listenership, they still have something to show for it. You're offering a penny and a half a page.
I'm currently shopping around a 7000-word story. In standard manuscript format, that's about 250 words per page. So, about 28 pages. Under your model, that story would get 42 cents from you, with any future payment being a big ol' maybe. It's great that two of your comics are bringing in $400 net a month. But you've already stated it's going to take a year before the writer would see any of that, and even still, it's only a maybe. 42 cents has to last a year. Or more.
And! (because it can never be said too often) the EA 'casts publish mostly reprints (honorable J DeRego excepted from the generalization, of course) which means most of the people getting the flat rate payment from EA have already been paid for their stories once by someone else.
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You guys are really looking for something that isn't there and using me a symbol for every person who dismissed your career as a writer. I came here looking for advice specifically because I wanted a professional writer and I wanted to offer a professional deal. Kind of regretting that decision now but water under the bridge and all.
I never said writing was easy. I was just talking about time. Per page on a comic project a artist will spend more time by a factor of 20 than the writer. The writer has a difficult job no doubt. Good comics demand very tight staccato language that get across a lot of meaning in a very small space. There comic writer has to account for the timing of his words in the strip as well as the meaning of the words. A comic denies a writer of his ability to use descriptive language or to go inside the characters perspective greatly reducing the toolbox available to tell the story. Story comics have longer narrative arch that need to be considered that if not planed well can scuttle a comic in the long run. It is very difficult to do well.
However this difficult task still does not take as long on a page by page basis as the equally difficult task of the art. Because comics have a time dimension the writing which would fill one prose page is usually spread over 10 or so comic pages. The writing, while still very difficult, has been spread out.
So you have two professional doing very difficult tasks on a creative work but one of these professional has to spend 20 times longer on each page. Logic sort of says that the professional that is spending more time on the work should get paid more. Unless your are suggestion that writing is MORE difficult than art and I find that insulting to the artist.
There is also a factor of how a reader approaches a comic. For better or for worse the reader is attracted to the pretty picture first but form a lasting relationship with the comic based on the writing. This means sales on "Issue 1"s are for a large part due to the work of the art but "Issue 2" is due to the writing. Also, as I said a writer needs, to think about the narrative arch. That is a long term thing so you need to keep a writer on a project but you can change an artist without impact. Because of this the tradition among the independent comic industry has been to give writers partial ownership of the work because any long term success or failure will be on account of their genius. Not saying this is right or wrong it's just the tradition.
One thing to remember is that for every XKCD there is a Sore Thumbs where the success comes from the art not the writing. (At least I think so. I can't make head or tails of Sore Thumbs. And if you want to you can throw my own works into that pile. I write but I am not a great writer and I know I owe a lot to my artist).
At no time was I asking anyone to do it for free. I tried to be very upfront about the questionable profits on this endeavor, but I did offer ownership of a comic. You would get something in return for your work; an illustrated comic that costs $1000+ to produce. I think comics are fun and every day I pay to have someone make pretty pictures to go with my words. I have never made a dime off of my webcomics and I never expect to. I just like having my own comic and invest time and money to get that. I think there is a value in having images go with your words and making your work more accessible. I really did think I was offer something of pretty high value.
Now just in case my "tone" is still wrong let me say this: Writing is hard. Writers should be compensated for their work. Writers are professionals. Writing is a noble art forum.
Is that good enough now?
Anyway $100 for 300 words. It taking 1.6 minutes per word to write a comic script. That competitive rates of 1.5 cents per word (I did goof and say 1.5 cents per page but that was a typo) and 3 cents per word are not acceptable because I didn't have the right tone. This stuff kind of impresses me as a bit crazy, sorry if you are insulted by that but it does. The fact that no one is willing to back down on these point really did make me feel like I wandered into a mad house.
Well that's the end of my little speech. There is one clarification that I would like to make. I publish 4 comics online. www.exiern.com, www.legacycomic.com, www.knitprincess.com, www.bladebunny.com . One of them does have nudity the rest are PG rated. Though I know it is going to happen time and again by people who are out to make a cheep shot I sort of resent be characterized as solely a publisher of "mercantile TG/TF fetish comic with nudie-pics behind a paywall". I know the statement was softened afterwards but still it's a gross miss-characterization.
The new comic I am talking about is also a PG superhero story I didn't talk about it here because I was not advertising just looking for advice. Seeing that advice will not be forthcoming (except of the slight bizarre pay $100 for 300 words) and that I have become the strawman of this thread I guess it's best I just cut my loses at this point. Best of luck in your writing careers.
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I came here looking for advice specifically because I wanted a professional writer and I wanted to offer a professional deal.
People gave you advice. You didn't listen, and you keep harping on one comment that was made early in the thread so you can act aggrieved about the ~injustice~ of having to pay writers.
I never said writing was easy.
Yes you did.
Now just in case my "tone" is still wrong let me say this: Writing is hard. Writers should be compensated for their work. Writers are professionals. Writing is a noble art forum.
Is that good enough now?
If you are trying to pepper your post with thinly veiled insults, yes.
Anyway $100 for 300 words. It taking 1.6 minutes per word to write a comic script. That competitive rates of 1.5 cents per word (I did goof and say 1.5 cents per page but that was a typo) and 3 cents per word are not acceptable because I didn't have the right tone. This stuff kind of impresses me as a bit crazy, sorry if you are insulted by that but it does. The fact that no one is willing to back down on these point really did make me feel like I wandered into a mad house.
And... just because you don't like the answers you got, absolutely everybody who responded to you is insane? Including the people who gave you non-abrasive, well-intentioned responses? Good to know.
The new comic I am talking about is also a PG superhero story I didn't talk about it here because I was not advertising just looking for advice. Seeing that advice will not be forthcoming (except of the slight bizarre pay $100 for 300 words) and that I have become the strawman of this thread I guess it's best I just cut my loses at this point. Best of luck in your writing careers.
1). You don't understand what a strawman argument is, because that's not what is happening here.
2). Context like that is helpful when asking for advice on how to find writers.
3). Appropriate animated .gif is appropriate:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/daikaisho/oa8xzc.gif)
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Though I know it is going to happen time and again by people who are out to make a cheep shot I sort of resent be characterized as solely a publisher of "mercantile TG/TF fetish comic with nudie-pics behind a paywall". I know the statement was softened afterwards but still it's a gross miss-characterization.
But you publish and earn money from a transgender/transformation fetish comic that offers uncensored comics and topless pictures of the main character for a fee. The comic itself goes out of its way to put the main character in skimpy or torn outfits so as to make the uncensored versions appealing. It is a porn site. If it's unfair to point out that it's a porn site, well... Look, nearly every public restroom has a mirror or five. Take a gander sometime.
Tell you what: if Knit Princess is actually your big money-earner and the porn has nothing to do with your $400/month figure, I will cheerfully retract my statements and provide you with a month of free writing. Otherwise, man up a little; an unrepentant purveyor of titillation earns more of my respect than someone denying that they're making money selling drawings of naked boobies.
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I came here looking for advice specifically because I wanted a professional writer and I wanted to offer a professional deal.
People gave you advice. You didn't listen, and you keep harping on one comment that was made early in the thread so you can act aggrieved about the ~injustice~ of having to pay writers.
I have said several times that I want to pay a writer and offer an reasonable deal. Where did I harp on injustice of having to pay writers?
I never said writing was easy.
Yes you did.
Nooo. I did not. Where in this thread did I say that? I would not say that because I don't believe that.
Now just in case my "tone" is still wrong let me say this: Writing is hard. Writers should be compensated for their work. Writers are professionals. Writing is a noble art forum.
Is that good enough now?
If you are trying to pepper your post with thinly veiled insults, yes.
Oh for the love of... I will pay a writer to $10 right now to write this statement in a way that will not be misconstrued as an insult. I actually believe this. All though I must say $10 is actually an unfair rate since the task seems to be neigh impossible. We would have that alternate dimension symbolic mathematic reality altering language to accomplish this task.
And... just because you don't like the answers you got, absolutely everybody who responded to you is insane? Including the people who gave you non-abrasive, well-intentioned responses? Good to know.
True DKT offered some helpful advice and Listener was helpful. The mad house comment was uncalled for. I am just feeling a bit beaten around right now and having to defend myself against things I never said.
1). You don't understand what a strawman argument is, because that's not what is happening here.
Strawman: A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.
It's not happening here? My basic question was "I want to know where to look for a professional writer and what a fair deal should be for them". I never said writing was easy or that a writer should not be paid and yet that is what I am defending myself against. My position {Writers are valuable and i need one for my project} has been interpreted as {I think writing is easy and writers should not be paid}. Kind of seems like a misrepresentation to me.
Tell you what: if Knit Princess is actually your big money-earner and the porn has nothing to do with your $400/month figure,
I make money from exiern no doubt. Knit Princess does clear $2000 at every convention it has gone to and it makes $200 each quarter from a deal with Twist Collective magazine. So one of the $400 comic is Exiern. The other (technicality $150ish when you account for the artist costs and update schedule) is Knit Princess. Naked bits helps but it's not the only way to make money. Never said I don't appeal to fan service but that is not all I do.
I could not find a head exploding graphic that wasn't too gruesome to put at the bottom of this post but that is what should be placed here:
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You guys are really looking for something that isn't there and using me a symbol for every person who dismissed your career as a writer.
Damn it, I'd start the drinking game, but it's too early in the morning and I'd have alcohol poisoning within the hour.
No one's ever dismissed my career as a writer. You're not a symbol for anything. However, there are many, many people out there on ye olde internets who are looking to pay writers little or nothing for their work. Some of them are just starting out themselves. Some of them don't know much about whatever business they're in. And some of them are actively looking to screw over the writers.
I do not think you're in the last category, by the way. However, I think your model for "paying" writers is very flawed. I spend a lot of time reading Writer Beware (http://accrispin.blogspot.com) and the "Bewares and Background Checks" forum at Absolute Write. (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/index.php) Plenty of what you're suggesting raises red flags for me, especially in matters of fair pay and copyright.
I came here looking for advice specifically because I wanted a professional writer and I wanted to offer a professional deal.
Then act like a professional. When people balk at your suggested payment model, listen to why they're leery of it. It's good that you're now considering an up-front payment. That's progress. However, you still admit that half-ownership may still very well result in no profits for the writer. The artist gets their full payment and it doesn't matter whether the comic succeeds or fails. The writer, however, takes the fall if the comic fails. How is that fair?
I never said writing was easy. I was just talking about time.
From your second post:
comic script writing is a pretty light work
and from your fourth:
It takes two hours to write 3 to 4 pages of comics. I know because I write 4 comics currently and I can crank out a page of script for each one in the time I get up before work.
That's how much time it takes you to write 3 to 4 pages of comics. And, yes, "cranking out a page of script" certainly comes off as "writing is easy."
It is very difficult to do well.
Hooray! Yes! It is! Which means it takes time. Writing isn't just scratching some words on paper and calling it done. Good, quality writing is going to take some editing and revising, and a lot longer than a half hour per page.
However this difficult task still does not take as long on a page by page basis as the equally difficult task of the art. Because comics have a time dimension the writing which would fill one prose page is usually spread over 10 or so comic pages. The writing, while still very difficult, has been spread out.
So you have two professional doing very difficult tasks on a creative work but one of these professional has to spend 20 times longer on each page. Logic sort of says that the professional that is spending more time on the work should get paid more. Unless your are suggestion that writing is MORE difficult than art and I find that insulting to the artist.
Er, no. You're talking two different mediums here, even though they're combining to make one tasty comic. Writing and drawing are two very different things, two different skill sets. I'm not refuting the part where the artist might spend more drawing and inking and coloring than the writer spends writing. That still doesn't make it fair to pay the writer in pennies and promises while the artist gets real-world money.
At no time was I asking anyone to do it for free. I tried to be very upfront about the questionable profits on this endeavor, but I did offer ownership of a comic. You would get something in return for your work; an illustrated comic that costs $1000+ to produce. I think comics are fun and every day I pay to have someone make pretty pictures to go with my words. I have never made a dime off of my webcomics and I never expect to. I just like having my own comic and invest time and money to get that. I think there is a value in having images go with your words and making your work more accessible. I really did think I was offer something of pretty high value.
And if the webcomic makes no money, and fails after the first year -- a possibility you yourself stress -- the writer has... nothing (do I need to channel Jayne again?) Yes, they have an illustrated comic for which they wrote. They get to, what, to look at it on a website if you leave the domain up? Stick it in their portfolio? At the end of the year, the artist has still been paid and the writer still has not.
Another question: what can the writer do with half-ownership of a failed webcomic? I'm not being snarky here; I genuinely don't know what the benefit is. What if he or she would like to take that story arc and turn it into a novel? Do you have some kind of claim on the sale of that novel, with your half-ownership of the webcomic? What rights to their words do your writers retain? What rights to their words are you claiming?
Now just in case my "tone" is still wrong let me say this: Writing is hard. Writers should be compensated for their work. Writers are professionals. Writing is a noble art forum.
Is that good enough now?
Depends on whether you're being sarcastic or not.
Anyway $100 for 300 words.
That was what Scattercat found with some quick research on average pay for comic scripts. It's pretty much what I found, too. Sure, it might be what writers at Marvel and DC are getting, and there's going to be a difference in payscale between big huge comic book companies and fledgling webcomics, but it's still payment up front, not "have some shiny beads, then we'll talk in a year."
It taking 1.6 minutes per word to write a comic script.
Hey, you know, it might. Again, it's not just a matter of slapping some words down on paper and calling it good. Writing means planning and editing, revising and re-revising. So the actual process of typing out 300 words might take a half hour, but tweaking those words to make the best script possible might take more than the half hour you allot to it.
That competitive rates of 1.5 cents per word (I did goof and say 1.5 cents per page but that was a typo) and 3 cents per word are not acceptable because I didn't have the right tone. This stuff kind of impresses me as a bit crazy, sorry if you are insulted by that but it does. The fact that no one is willing to back down on these point really did make me feel like I wandered into a mad house.
It's not unacceptable because of your tone. It's unacceptable because that's not what you initially offered. 1.5 to 3 cents would be considered semi-pro rates if you're submitting a short story. 5 cents per word and up is the standard minimum rate for professional pay. (And, again to clarify: EA's 1.5 cents/word is, as Anarkey stated, aimed at the reprint market, which means ideally the writers have received 5 cents/word already elsewhere.)
Not being a webcomic writer, I'd say 1.5 to 3 cents a word for a webcomic just starting out sounds fair. Sounds. But again, I don't write for webcomics.
Something else to consider: you talk about paying per word, but then discuss the amount of time the artists spend drawing. Those really aren't the same thing. I'd suggest you pick one: if you're paying the artist per page of artwork, pay the writer per word. If your artists are billing you an hourly rate, let your writers do the same, and pay them both a fair hourly wage.
But pay them both up front, and don't let either of their payments hinge on where the comic is in a year and how much it's bringing in.
Seeing that advice will not be forthcoming (except of the slight bizarre pay $100 for 300 words)
Actually, advice is all over thread. You're choosing to stuff your fingers in your ears and shout LALALALA rather than processing it. Take a step back. Breathe. You asked what we'd consider professional. We answered. It's there, if you can stop being offended and see it.
and that I have become the strawman of this thread I guess it's best I just cut my loses at this point. Best of luck in your writing careers.
Oh man, "everyone's being meeeean to me" AND a flounce. Drink twice!
When you come out with guns blazing, people are going to shoot back. However, there's also a lot of calm, rational discussion here, and I'd bet you could glean a lot of good stuff from it.
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I came here looking for advice specifically because I wanted a professional writer and I wanted to offer a professional deal.
People gave you advice. You didn't listen, and you keep harping on one comment that was made early in the thread so you can act aggrieved about the ~injustice~ of having to pay writers.
I have said several times that I want to pay a writer and offer an reasonable deal. Where did I harp on injustice of having to pay writers?
I think it is because you keep bringing up the $100 for 300 words thing, which most of the writers here don't honestly expect. But you keep hammering on that.
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Remember, kids, as long as you never technically say exactly what others hear in your tone, you're the victim of a strawman. The more you know!
Drow, protip: A strawman is when someone misconstrues the facts of your argument. Misconstruing your tone is not a strawman argument, and when that kind of "misreading" is as consistent as it's been in this thread, let's just say that it's really really likely NOT to be a problem with all of the audience members.
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I'm going to chime in, as someone who is interested in buying stories. (Although not yet)
The first thing I started doing was asking via social media where I could go to start. I asked one of the people in this thread some quick questions, and got a lot of helpful information. I know that for the project I want to crank out, I need a budget of at least $10,000 for a 13 short story collection. Now, there are some ways I could lower that by offering creative deals, like the one offered here, but I would always offer at least some guaranteed money.
Personally, if I were to offer a deal like that, I would do something more like this: (I am using generic numbers here)
I'll pay $X up front for the work, or $1/2 X and Y% of profits, or $1/4X and 4Y% of profits. By doing that, you let them decide what is more important: guaranteed money or potential upside.
I have run several businesses into the ground, and have a successful one now. I've learned a lot from falling on my face. Suck it up, figure out why you got a negative response here, and change your tactics.
I've not gone to check out your comics, but to me this seems more like a cheap PR stunt.
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Well time for mea culpa. I did not handle this interaction very well at all and I have to apologize. I have been having a bad week and it seems to have spilled over into this forum. I fell into the classic "some one is wrong on the internet". I came her for advice not as a publicity stunt or trying to cheat people. The problems where the first couple of responses just were not practical in the webcomic business model, following the advice would have scuttled the project. What I should have done is just thanked the individuals for their advice and moved on. Instead, like an idiot, I tried to demonstrate how impractical the proposal was through argument and sarcastic humor. This make me come off like a callous ass. Mostly because I was being a callous ass.
When the implication was made that I was trying to cheat people and that I don't value writing this kind of burned me because it's the exact opposite of what I try to do with my webcomics and what I believe. Again I should have let it go said "sorry you feel that way" and moved on not try to defend myself. It hard to do that when your being accused of something so opposite to your nature.
So I am sorry. I promise if I ever post on this board again I will do a couple hours of zen meditation beforehand. It has just been a rough week for me. (currently a company is trying cheat me out of pay for my contract work so you can see why the line discussion kind of annoyed me)
From what I have gleaned from the non-"you suck" posts. A token payment up front is a good idea and I agree with that. I can probably safely budget $5 to $10 a comic page for the script with 25% profit sharing (money after the artist is paid and not including advertising that is always reinvesting into adverting). The key would be to have some agreement that would really encourage the writer to stick with the project for a over a year. Not writing for over a year mind you but as the comic matured and gained an audience that the writer would stay available for work and not choose to move on to other things.
I still don't have the slightest idea where to post said announcement. All the google searches of "writer's forums" have taken me to strange ghost town of forums or things locked behind a pay wall. I suppose I could try Craig's list and the local writer's center but i really didn't want to limit myself geographically. Although I guess it's a place to start. For those who tried to help out thanks for the advice. For those I offended I do apologize.
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Absolute Write, which I linked in my previous post, has a "Paying Markets" board. I'd suggest reading their sticky post about their rules first, because it has some guidelines on the information they're looking for. They might also move the post over to the non-paying markets board, if it works out to less than a quarter of a cent per word.
Also, be ready to have people ask you some of the same questions you were asked here. The authors who contribute to Writer Beware are active participants on that board, and they're going to be looking out for the writers who hang out around those parts. They're not trying to be jerks; they're in the business of helping people get fair deals, and they're tenacious about it.
I noticed you didn't answer my questions about copyright. Be prepared to field some of the same questions I asked you over there, too. If you have half-ownership, and the writer has half-ownership, what happens if the webcomic fails and ceases publication after a year? Can the writer take that storyline that he or she created and turn it into a novel? Do you have any claim on that novel?
If you do post at AW, I'd highly recommend you don't let your bad week spill over there, too. They're going to ask you pointed questions, and they're probably going to tell you whether they think your offer is fair or not. Be polite and professional, and I bet you'll find someone to work with through them.
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From what I have gleaned from the non-"you suck" posts. A token payment up front is a good idea and I agree with that. I can probably safely budget $5 to $10 a comic page for the script with 25% profit sharing (money after the artist is paid and not including advertising that is always reinvesting into adverting). The key would be to have some agreement that would really encourage the writer to stick with the project for a over a year. Not writing for over a year mind you but as the comic matured and gained an audience that the writer would stay available for work and not choose to move on to other things.
A token payment sounds like a much better idea. Regarding "not choose to move on to other things"--is there any reason they can't go on to write other things and choose to come back?
I still don't have the slightest idea where to post said announcement. All the google searches of "writer's forums" have taken me to strange ghost town of forums or things locked behind a pay wall. I suppose I could try Craig's list and the local writer's center but i really didn't want to limit myself geographically. Although I guess it's a place to start. For those who tried to help out thanks for the advice. For those I offended I do apologize.
If you're looking for writer's forums to ask for volunteers, I could point you to a few. Most SF magazines have writer's forum section, but I'll list a few. I'm not sure that all of them allow soliciting works, so you might want to check forum rules before registering.
1. This one, of course. :)
2. Writers of the Future:
http://forum.writersofthefuture.com/viewforum.php?f=1&sid=d67a826a7e6175155042e2da133648b9
3. Analog:
http://www.analogsf.com/aspnet_forum/topics.aspx?ForumID=2
4. Asimov's:
http://www.asimovs.com/aspnet_forum/topics.aspx?ForumID=8
5. Fantasy and Science Fiction:
http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/forum.php?id=2
6. Hatrack River (writing forum on Orson Scott Card's website)
http://www.hatrack.com/forums/writers/cgi/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Open+Discussions+About+Writing&number=1&DaysPrune=365&LastLogin=
7. Liberty Hall (not specific to SF & F)
http://www.libertyhallwriters.org/forum/
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And I'll echo everything that falconesse just added too, especially the discussion of copyright.
Even more than payment, copyright is probably going to be more of an issue. Even if you pay well, if the copyright agreement is not favorable, your deal is going to sound much less desirable.
I'm not sure what would be considered reasonable regarding copyright for webcomics, but you MUST be upfront about it. Whatever you plan to do, tell people ahead of time so they can make their own choice. As an example of a bad copyright deal:
Have you heard of Highlights magazine for kids? I know I read it when I was a kid, with the Goofus and Gallant comics. I've been tempted to submit to them, because they pay something like 25 cents per word, which is 5 times the minimum considered as "professional" payment. But they don't just buy print rights for the story, they buy the entire copyright. Which means that the author has no right to do anything with the story after that, including writing a sequel with the same characters because they're copyrighted by Highlights. So, I don't ever intend to submit to them because I think that insisting on buying the entire copyright is a ripoff, even for that pay.
I don't mean to compare your deal with theirs, only to point out how big a deal copyright concerns may be. Decide exactly what rights you intend to keep, and what rights you'll leave with the author.
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Some of the info here and in my thread go together. Any chance of combining them?
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Copyright is a thorny issue on this one. In the normal situation were I am just producing a comic that was created by someone else the the copyright and trademark stays with the writer. For example Allison owns the IP rights to Knit Princess. If she decides to stop making the comic then well that's the end of it. There is no comic with out her.
However this is a different situation. I created this comic and the basic character and I am asking someone else to pick up the torch. In this case giving the writer power over the trademark give the writer power to scuttle the project. That is not an amount of power I am willing to give over something I created and prevent me from using my character again.
Copyright is also a problem because a script is not a complete work it is a blueprint for a completed work. So while I could offer a writer ownership of the copyright that is pretty useless. No one is going to buy the raw script and the script can not be used to create another comic because that would infringe on the trademark. So having second publishing rights on a script is pretty useless.
Now that I think about it the fact that work on existing characters in a comic script is pretty much a one shot deal with 0 resale potential is probably why that $100 figure exists. The problem is I can't pay that with a webcomics thin potential for profit.
Now at the same time there should be some protection for the writer if the comic takes off. If I start making movie deals and millions of dollars off of a comic then the writer should get some of that and I should not be allowed to just "fire" the writer when things go well.
I don't know what an agreement that would both; protect my right to continue making the comic if the writer flakes and protects the writers rights to profits for future deals that results from his/her work, would look like. Any ideas?
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I'm afraid I have no idea what would be fair or reasonable for copyright deal on a webcomic. Most likely, because the franchise was created by you, then the comic writing is by contract and by paying the author you are buying the copyright. I wrote C++ code for a living, but because I am doing so according to orders of the company, and the result goes into company products, I do not in any way OWN the rights to use that code however I please, though I do get CREDIT for having been the one to write it.
That makes sense to me for a webcomic as well because you are hiring a 3rd party to expand upon your creative idea (though I think you may want to see if there are any webcomic precedents you can compare to).
WHATEVER you want to do though, you must decide all of this ahead of time and get it on a contract. If the contract explicitly states something like "Copyright for this created work will be owned by drowemos, but in addition to the $___ fee, the writing credit will be given to the writer." If it's all stated in clear English in the contract, then the writer can decide for themselves whether it's worth joining.
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I'm not sure what the big deal is here: Drow made an offer, everyone is free to accept or reject it.
All discussions of pro-rates etc. aside, Drow should just offer an up-front payment. People are more likely to agree for guaranteed money.
Likewise, while pro-rates may be like $200 a page or whatever - most writers can only charge what the market can bear. I've been paid as little as $0.02 for a story - but was happy to get it. Make an offer and you'll get a reasonably fair response: offer $200 a page and Stan Lee will come knocking, but offer $10 a page or $5 a page and you'll still get offers.
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I'm not sure what the big deal is here: Drow made an offer, everyone is free to accept or reject it.
All discussions of pro-rates etc. aside, Drow should just offer an up-front payment. People are more likely to agree for guaranteed money.
Likewise, while pro-rates may be like $200 a page or whatever - most writers can only charge what the market can bear. I've been paid as little as $0.02 for a story - but was happy to get it. Make an offer and you'll get a reasonably fair response: offer $200 a page and Stan Lee will come knocking, but offer $10 a page or $5 a page and you'll still get offers.
Agreed. Just be upfront about what you're offering. Guaranteed payment of any amount is much more tempting than a chance of payment, but whatever you do just tell people what you WILL do and then do exactly what you said you would.