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PodCastle => Episode Comments => Topic started by: Heradel on September 08, 2010, 11:01:02 AM

Title: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Heradel on September 08, 2010, 11:01:02 AM
PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word (http://podcastle.org/2010/09/07/podcastle-121-giant-episode-the-warlock-and-the-man-of-the-word/)

by M.K. Hobson (http://www.demimonde.com/)

Read by Bob Eccles

Originally published in Postscripts 19 (http://store.pspublishing.co.uk/acatalog/info_101.html)

Mrs. Jorgensen ran the whores out of a big square building that had once been butter-yellow but had weathered to the color of chicken fat left out on a plate. The place was built sturdy, of white pine and fir, and had fine scrollwork supporting the eaves. The windows were covered with stretched oilpaper, ripped in places. At night, behind the oilpaper, shadows moved in the light of kerosene lamps. Some of the shadows had horns, some did not.

The building had three floors. The saloon was on the ground level, and above it there were two floors of small rooms where the girls worked. It was in the room on the east corner of the top floor that the demon prince Methe Pyrtrogo was shot dead.

It was past midnight on a Saturday, a hot night after a day when the thermometer outside Jowett’s General Supply had risen to a hundred and three. The hot thick dark air was split by a sound like branches being snapped. Two cracks. No one downstairs heard the sounds. Miners from the Baby Boy and the Independence and the May Queen had gotten their monthly envelopes that day. There was every kind of miner in the dance hall that night–alive and undead, Indian and white, human and demon. The noise they made was deafening.

Then Minnie, a young whore with yellow hair, came stumbling down the stairs. She was splattered with black blood, a great deal of it, all over her face and the front of her dress.

Rated R: Contains Violence (Including Gore), and Language

This episode of PodCastle is proudly sponsored by:

(http://pseudopod.org/wp-content/images/tns-podcastle_2.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0553592653?ie=UTF8&tag=demimonde-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0553592653)

You can read the Prologue (http://www.demimonde.com/books/the-native-star/prologue/) and Chapter 1 (http://www.demimonde.com/books/the-native-star/chapter-one/) online now! Check back on Friday for an exclusive audio chapter read by M.K. Hobson!
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: mlgw@aol.com on September 09, 2010, 12:53:32 AM
I wrote my comment, edited it, and my browser dropped the website. This was after it took me 10 minutes to find the tiny button that says 'reply', and to know that was how to post a comment.
I am now totally frustrated and won't rewrite my comment.
Arrgh!
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: gord42 on September 09, 2010, 04:33:08 AM
At the risk of sounding crassly unintelligent, I have to say I am again disappointed by a story with an incomplete plot.  I don't function well with all the 'layers' in literature, I pretty much just need the main narrative to move to a visible and satisfactory ending.  This wasn't it.  Which is too bad because it had me invested a lot in a genre I don't usually care for.

Sorry Podcastle, I've been too put off by the story selections for some time now.  I'm unsubscribing.  I know this would have more impact if I was a financial donor, but there it is.  However I still have big(ish) love for Escape Pod and Pseudopod so this decision likely says more about my taste and tolerance as a listener than it does about the quality of the podcast.  Weigh my opinion with the others on the forum and give it only the due it deserves.

~Gord
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: lisavilisa on September 10, 2010, 02:45:05 AM
Loved it.

Think I'l buy the authors work when I'm done on my book about oaks.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Loz on September 10, 2010, 07:25:56 AM
My heart often sinks when I see a giant episode in my list of podcasts as they rarely seem to gain anything by being longer than a regular episode. Such was not the case here though, I loved this episode and will be looking to buy the book at some point in the near future when I've worked my way through a pile of library books.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: danooli on September 10, 2010, 11:03:42 AM
This one was a teensy bit hard for me to get into at first...I think because of the names...sometimes I find that hearing a story, as opposed to reading it, can make it difficult to distinguish characters.  However, that was quickly overcome and I ended up LOVING this story!  The twist (Squaw Bess) was so unexpected!  I also really dug the discussion on the way up the mountain...

As soon as I'm done with the book I'm reading, I think I'll head right out to pick up The Native Star and delve back deeper into that engaging world Ms. Hobson has created!
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Unblinking on September 10, 2010, 01:37:35 PM
Like Loz, I generally don't get too excited about giant episode as they just tend to be a normal size story bloated to twice the normal size.  But (also like Loz) I thought this one was really great, my favorite Podcastle in quite a while.  I did have trouble keeping the demons' names straight, which probably would've been easier in text, but it didn't cause me any major problems. 

I liked the way the rules of the world played out piece by piece, revealing the demons right away, then adding the powerful men of god, and the power of a Sending.  Several good turns that took me off guard, from the apparent reveal of Squaw Bess as an angel, then the reverend's incorrect revelation that he is the Sending, and that the Sending actually worked in the Mountain King's favor, that was really great.

I haven't bought any books for quite a while, because my bookshelf is overflowing with the unread books the way it is, but I might have to make an exception for Hobson's book.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: stePH on September 10, 2010, 05:02:45 PM
Me likey.  :)
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: washer on September 11, 2010, 02:15:29 PM
I liked this one a lot.  I haven't read a book now in about four months due to malaise and what-have-you, but I'm ordering The Native Star, and it's getting read.

I liked Bob Eccles' reading, he's got an appropriately gravelly voice for a Western, and he's very good at differentiating the characters.  He didn't stumble or have a superloud fan going in the background, so good technically too.

The story itself was breathtaking in its scope and the implications it made, and the characters were rich and complex despite the limited amount of words they had to breathe.  I liked how the revelation the padre had was incorrect and things kept flipping on their head.  I liked the dialogue as well, very flowing.

My only problem was the denouement.  It was over and done with before I realized I didn't have five minutes of story left.  It was also confusing.  I was left with a lot of questions jumbling around in my head that I tried to make sense of (and failed) afterwards.  I think some of those unresolved issues are the result of my not being astute enough, some of 'em can be racked up to author's intent, but that still leaves a bit left over where I kind of wish she'd spelled it out more clearly.

Anyhow.  A good listen, hopefully leading to a good read.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: kibitzer on September 14, 2010, 03:03:54 AM
I enjoyed this.

It certainly draws heavily on your typical Western characters -- gunslingers, preachers, miners, whores -- and does so well. I'm a little conflicted about whether the fantasy elements mix well with the Western. It seems odd to me that a demon prince could be simply shot in the back and killed, special ammo or no. And I wasn't sure how the magic worked. I'm not looking for a manual or "How To Be A Warlock" but Ash's magic seemed restricted to bindings and little else. I saw he drew power from the ground somehow, but I didn't get why it was different then as opposed to when he threw magic in town.

This next is likely just a personal thing: I'm very uncomfortable when faith is reduced to/set on par with magic. As portrayed here, I felt Fennel (sp?) and Ash were presented as two equally valid forces, the one dependent on belief and the other on craft. I suppose it depends on how god(s) or God is defined in the story, as are demons.

I wonder whether this was written before/during/after The Native Star? It feels a little like Hobson knows her world in broad strokes but has yet to flesh it out.

Let me reiterate: I enjoyed the story.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: ElectricPaladin on September 14, 2010, 03:46:37 AM
I liked this one a lot.  I haven't read a book now in about four months due to malaise and what-have-you, but I'm ordering The Native Star, and it's getting read.

I liked Bob Eccles' reading, he's got an appropriately gravelly voice for a Western, and he's very good at differentiating the characters.  He didn't stumble or have a superloud fan going in the background, so good technically too.

The story itself was breathtaking in its scope and the implications it made, and the characters were rich and complex despite the limited amount of words they had to breathe.  I liked how the revelation the padre had was incorrect and things kept flipping on their head.  I liked the dialogue as well, very flowing.

My only problem was the denouement.  It was over and done with before I realized I didn't have five minutes of story left.  It was also confusing.  I was left with a lot of questions jumbling around in my head that I tried to make sense of (and failed) afterwards.  I think some of those unresolved issues are the result of my not being astute enough, some of 'em can be racked up to author's intent, but that still leaves a bit left over where I kind of wish she'd spelled it out more clearly.

Anyhow.  A good listen, hopefully leading to a good read.

Everything he said, +1. I loved every moment of the story, except for the last moment, when suddenly it didn't make sense anymore. I understand the appeal of leaving some questions unanswered, but this one went without explaining just a few too many things for my liking. It's not that I didn't fully understand a character's destiny, or even motivation - it's more that it felt like the entire world stopped making sense in the last few plot points, and I don't like that.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: kibitzer on September 14, 2010, 09:43:41 AM
Also: I support your monetisation!
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Unblinking on September 14, 2010, 01:28:08 PM
Quote
This next is likely just a personal thing: I'm very uncomfortable when faith is reduced to/set on par with magic. As portrayed here, I felt Fennel (sp?) and Ash were presented as two equally valid forces, the one dependent on belief and the other on craft. I suppose it depends on how god(s) or God is defined in the story, as are demons.

I enjoyed that aspect, though I'm generally quite drawn to alternate views of religion, so that's no real surprise.  What intrigued me the most is that, if Ash is right, and that religion is just another form of magic, then his very recognition of this fact bars him from ever using it.  You don't have true faith if you only see the faith as a tool.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: mkhobson on September 14, 2010, 06:17:39 PM
@Kibitzer: To answer your question, this story was written well after THE NATIVE STAR and while it shares a similar magical structure (in the world of THE NATIVE STAR, faith-based magic is called "Credomancy") I didn't flesh it out here as much as I do in the book.

@Unblinking: You raise a very interesting point ... if having faith in (or fear of) something gives that thing power, does *knowing* that necessarily rob it of that power? For instance, let's say I'm afraid of spiders, and thus spiders have a certain amount of power over me (I may refrain from cleaning the shed in the backyard, for example.) Does my rational understanding of my fear lessen the emotional power that spider has over me? (Well, maybe with lots of therapy I guess.)  :)

If religion is just another form of magic (an idea which I do play with substantially in the book as well), let's say that, as a magic user, you know that how much you believe in God impacts how much power God has. But that doesn't mean that God doesn't exist, rather just that his power is dependent on you as much as your power is dependent on him. It becomes a symbiotic relationship.

If Ash were to go on to become a Man of the Word, it would be because he has faith in *faith*, not necessarily in the God that inspires it ... if you follow me. Which you are more than welcome not to, for my logic is twisty and all the lights are off.  :D
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Dallas on September 14, 2010, 07:02:30 PM
I really enjoyed this story and the reading of it as well.  I have been a huge fan of PodCastle even if I have not enjoyed every story. 
However, I am not sure why it is okay to use the word n!gger just because you put the word 'hell' in front of it.  Maybe I am not 'cool' enough to let this just be a literary reference or to show how much hate/tension there are between the humans and demons.  But it doesn't work for me.  It's same as calling someone a Sand N!gger or just a regular N!gger (whatever that would be).  I remember sitting at my grandfather's knee and him telling me how he felt being called that offensive term as he marched for rights of all people. 
I am  not against it being in Literature, it does have its place.  Ignoring it doesn't make it go away.  But there is no place for it in this story. 
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Talia on September 14, 2010, 07:54:30 PM
Gotta disagree with you Dallas, there is absolutely a use for it in this story. Its thematically appropriate - rather (or perhaps as well as) than the racism of the period being directed at African Americans, its targetting demons. Its mean to emphasize what a nasty slur it is and to be suggestive of the deep level of, uh, species-ist hate going on.

Now, I'm at work and don't dare google the N word to determine when it originated, so I can't back this up with facts, but it seems like a word they would have used in that era.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: ElectricPaladin on September 14, 2010, 08:20:17 PM
However, I am not sure why it is okay to use the word n!gger just because you put the word 'hell' in front of it.  Maybe I am not 'cool' enough to let this just be a literary reference or to show how much hate/tension there are between the humans and demons.  But it doesn't work for me.  It's same as calling someone a Sand N!gger or just a regular N!gger (whatever that would be).  I remember sitting at my grandfather's knee and him telling me how he felt being called that offensive term as he marched for rights of all people. 

I am  not against it being in Literature, it does have its place.  Ignoring it doesn't make it go away.  But there is no place for it in this story.

I am of the camp that says that pretending that nasty stuff is not a part of our world does not make it less nasty. In fact, it may make it more nasty, by allowing it to fester, unseen by those who don't have to deal with it every day. On the other hand, showcasing the nastiness in art and activism, making it public and impossible to ignore, can go a long way to making the world a better place.

In some sense, The Warlock and the Man of the Word is about cultural tensions. The same jerks who first applied the word "nigger" in a modern context are here in a position to invent a similar word about another people they dislike. Why shouldn't they coin the term "hell-nigger" when it works so well (that is to say that the demons are disliked and dark-skinned). If the story is about the same tensions that make the word "nigger" a bad word, why not use a similar word to underline the damage the word does?
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: kibitzer on September 14, 2010, 10:14:56 PM
If religion is just another form of magic (an idea which I do play with substantially in the book as well), let's say that, as a magic user, you know that how much you believe in God impacts how much power God has. But that doesn't mean that God doesn't exist, rather just that his power is dependent on you as much as your power is dependent on him. It becomes a symbiotic relationship.

If Ash were to go on to become a Man of the Word, it would be because he has faith in *faith*, not necessarily in the God that inspires it ... if you follow me. Which you are more than welcome not to, for my logic is twisty and all the lights are off.  :D

Yup, I can go with that; as you explain it here it makes sense. Thanks for the explanation.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Wilson Fowlie on September 15, 2010, 03:48:53 AM
As portrayed here, I felt Fennel (sp?) and Ash were presented as two equally valid forces, the one dependent on belief and the other on craft.

Yes, it does seem a little unfair that Ash had to go to all the trouble of learning spells and studying ancient texts (including the Bible), presumably risking his life to do so in a lot of cases, while all the preacher needed to do was believe. Ash's powers should have be been a lot stronger.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Unblinking on September 15, 2010, 02:03:03 PM
Ooh, yay, I like when the author stops by to say something.  Hi, MK!

If Ash were to go on to become a Man of the Word, it would be because he has faith in *faith*, not necessarily in the God that inspires it ... if you follow me. Which you are more than welcome not to, for my logic is twisty and all the lights are off.  :D

That's a cool idea as well.  On some level it makes sense, but I'm not sure I totally buy that faith in faith is equivalent to faith in <insert deity here>.  I see faith in a deity is an admission, on some level, of helplessness and questing outside myself to turn that helplessness into power.  Faith in faith is something totally different to me.  Faith in faith is really faith in myself, which is the total opposite of helplessness, but invincibility.  There's certainly strength in self-reliance, but in that case I'm not gaining power by giving over to a power greater than myself, I'm gaining power by believing I am capable of power.  In the vaguest of senses, I can see the similarity, and they both could make sense as parts of a magic system, but I don't think I'd describe the latter with the words "religion" or "faith".

Anyway, since Ash doesn't try to become a man of the word in the space of the story, I'm free to speculate on it without invalidating any of the story events.  And I still like the idea that recognizing "faith" as "magic" breaks your ability to use that magic, so I'm still going to ponder that.  :D

I am looking forward to picking up the book, should be fun!
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Unblinking on September 15, 2010, 02:03:58 PM
I am of the camp that says that pretending that nasty stuff is not a part of our world does not make it less nasty. In fact, it may make it more nasty, by allowing it to fester, unseen by those who don't have to deal with it every day. On the other hand, showcasing the nastiness in art and activism, making it public and impossible to ignore, can go a long way to making the world a better place.

In some sense, The Warlock and the Man of the Word is about cultural tensions. The same jerks who first applied the word "nigger" in a modern context are here in a position to invent a similar word about another people they dislike. Why shouldn't they coin the term "hell-nigger" when it works so well (that is to say that the demons are disliked and dark-skinned). If the story is about the same tensions that make the word "nigger" a bad word, why not use a similar word to underline the damage the word does?

I agree with ElectricPaladin.  It's an ugly word, and it's not meant to give warm and fuzzy feelings.  With the time period it's set in, it makes sense for that slur to be coined.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Unblinking on September 15, 2010, 02:40:15 PM
On the subject of "faith in self" vs. "faith in higher power", this brings an unexpected story association to mind--Dumbo.  In the beginning, Dumbo has faith in nothing and cannot fly.  He is given the "magic" feather, through which he learns to gain power through by admitting his helplessness.  When the feather is gone, he learns that he still able to fly because the feather was not magical at all, it only helped him overcome his own fears.

I'm not sure what my point is here, just saw an interesting parallel.   ;D
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: stePH on September 15, 2010, 04:54:15 PM
Now, I'm at work and don't dare google the N word to determine when it originated, so I can't back this up with facts, but it seems like a word they would have used in that era.

I thought it was a corruption of "negro", the Spanish word for "black".

[edit]
...oh, you said "when" not "where". Never mind. :-[
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Wilson Fowlie on September 15, 2010, 05:37:19 PM
My copy of The Native Star arrived last night! Hooray!

Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Baine on September 16, 2010, 02:03:22 AM
I loved this one M.K is awesome I can't wait to get the new book.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: astyanax on September 16, 2010, 07:23:59 PM
This is a setting I usually very much dislike and it is very unlikely that I would have ever considered picking up the native star. However, this story has made me think I may just give it a try. I'll be buying a copy this weekend.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Mav.Weirdo on September 19, 2010, 06:53:32 PM
I enjoyed this story very much. The interplay/relationship between Ash and Ferness is what makes this story great. I personally found Bob Eccles' "narrator" voice a bit too neutral, althought his character voices worked well.

I have added Native Star to my wishlist.

Also, 1st post on the boards
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Scattercat on September 21, 2010, 01:01:46 AM
I enjoyed it, although I, too, was a bit disappointed that - as per usual, it seems - the faithful are wrong and misguided and end up ruining everything and/or playing right into the Bad Guys' hands.  This is why I played Father Ezekiel in a Shadowrun game (which has the same premise, i.e. faith powers magic and faith in *what* doesn't matter so much), a rip-roaring Baptist preacher who insisted on giving every "sinner" the team encountered a chance to repent before having their heads shot off.  He got shot in the back repeatedly by "repentant" sinners, but he didn't let that stop him.  (He had armor plating installed instead.)
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Wilson Fowlie on September 21, 2010, 02:11:17 AM
as per usual, it seems - the faithful are wrong and misguided and end up ruining everything

... and ... ? ;D

It usually goes that way, in fiction and often in real life, because the ones who have enough zealotry to get off their butts and get involved also generally* tend to be the ones who are intolerant, closed-minded, judgmental and generally unhelpful.


*Not always, but generally.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Scattercat on September 21, 2010, 03:22:11 AM
If that were true, then religion wouldn't have been such a massively successful meme.  Memes that do nothing but harm don't get retained.  Given that churchs and faith have been a force for social good as well as social ill, I don't think that sort of broad generalization, even with your footnote, can stand much scrutiny.  Lots of charitable organizations start from churches of all flavors; those are people who are involved and motivated to get off their butts, are they not?

I find that a lot of speculative fiction explores faith as something seen from the outside.  Even here in this story, when the preacher is walking with Ash, he's a full three-dimensional character with doubts and concerns, but once he's touched by the angel and his faith is reignited, he becomes Other, an unknowable mute and alien presence.  That sort of thing bothers me because seeing it so often seems to reinforce it as a pillar of the common reality.  (It also bothers me on a pragmatic level because as soon as you see a priest, you know s/he's going to turn out evil in the end, and that makes for predictable stories.)
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Wilson Fowlie on September 21, 2010, 03:54:27 AM
If that were true, then religion wouldn't have been such a massively successful meme.  Memes that do nothing but harm don't get retained.  Given that churchs and faith have been a force for social good as well as social ill, I don't think that sort of broad generalization, even with your footnote, can stand much scrutiny.  Lots of charitable organizations start from churches of all flavors; those are people who are involved and motivated to get off their butts, are they not?

Yes, though in a lot of cases the charity, however generous, is used as a hook to pull in more faithful (and in some cases - possibly even many cases, but I'm willing to stick to 'some' - the 'charity' is given on condition of a declaration of faith or 'repentance' by the recipient).

In this story, Furness isn't getting involved in charity, but in 'fighting evil', and I should have said that it's in that situation that religious zealotry starts to be wrong and misguided and ruin, if not everything, then a lot, because once the religious mind - especially that of a leader - gets into that mode, it tends to see evil around every corner. Persecution is an integral part (and, I bet, is a large part of the success you mention) of that meme.

(It also bothers me on a pragmatic level because as soon as you see a priest, you know s/he's going to turn out evil in the end, and that makes for predictable stories.)

That I can sympathize with.

As much as I dislike Orson Scott Card's work these days, I have to say he handled that issue well with the Bishop(?) in Speaker For the Dead.  He (the Bishop) was as wrong-headed and closed-minded as any of the fictional priests you decry, but Card was careful not to make him utterly one-dimensional.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Wilson Fowlie on September 21, 2010, 04:08:01 AM
Also, for all that you may be right, it's the Jerry Falwells and James Dobsons and Ernest Angleys and Ray Comforts and Oral Robertses and Fred Phelpses and Terry Joneses - the extremists - who grab the headlines.  Just from the media attention they get, it's easy to tell that they're interesting characters, from a reader's point of view.  The moderately religious who start or work in charities, like ... um ... ah ... uh ...

Huh, can't seem to think of any.  No names come to mind, even though they probably outnumber people like the above 10- or 100-fold.

The moderate priest who forgives sin instead of condemning it, helps the poor or homeless instead of saying they have what they deserve (*cough*Calvin*cough*) and guides his flock instead of ruling them with fear is just not as interesting a character (or, at least, is much harder to make into as interesting a character as Furness) so you just won't see them as often.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Scattercat on September 21, 2010, 05:28:13 AM
I certainly wouldn't disagree that people out "fighting evil" in the name of any religion are likely to also be raging assholes of one degree or another.  I just get irritated by the "strong faith = evil or at least duped by evil" meme, and I was disappointed to see it recapitulated here.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Swamp on September 21, 2010, 06:44:19 AM
I share Scattercat's dislike of the recurring theme of religious = evil/stupid that often frequents spec fic.  There wasn't enough of it in this story to make me not like it.  I thought it was a rich world with good characters.  It did blip my antireligious radar, but I enjoyed the overall story quite a bit regardless.  I like a good "weird western".
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Scattercat on September 21, 2010, 07:03:15 AM
I share Scattercat's dislike of the recurring theme of religious = evil/stupid that often frequents spec fic.  There wasn't enough of it in this story to make me not like it.  I thought it was a rich world with good characters.  It did blip my antireligious radar, but I enjoyed the overall story quite a bit regardless.  I like a good "weird western".

I agree.  I liked the story overall, and I enjoyed the world and the intriguing dilemmas the plotline posed. 
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Unblinking on September 21, 2010, 01:48:31 PM
It usually goes that way, in fiction and often in real life, because the ones who have enough zealotry to get off their butts and get involved also generally* tend to be the ones who are intolerant, closed-minded, judgmental and generally unhelpful.

I've met plenty of close-minded, judgmental, and unhelpful atheists as well.  Religion doesn't hold the patent.

Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: DKT on September 21, 2010, 04:26:40 PM
It usually goes that way, in fiction and often in real life, because the ones who have enough zealotry to get off their butts and get involved also generally* tend to be the ones who are intolerant, closed-minded, judgmental and generally unhelpful.

I've met plenty of close-minded, judgmental, and unhelpful atheists as well.  Religion doesn't hold the patent.



True. And I should preface the rest of what I'm going to say with this: prejudiced, judgmental, close-minded groups of people really, really pisses me off. But how many atheists threaten to hold Quran bonfires? Or suggest that Muslims - as a whole - are evil? I, personally, haven't met one.

This is not to let any other group of judgmental, close-minded people off the hook. But the truth is, I don't have to go very far to find a Christian who reminds me of Furness. As a practicing Christian (Quaker), it's more frustrating to me to see other Christians preach or act out hatefulness than just about anything else. Although, as said above, hatred and/or ignorance toward a people group by anyone infuriates me.

I certainly wouldn't disagree that people out "fighting evil" in the name of any religion are likely to also be raging assholes of one degree or another.  I just get irritated by the "strong faith = evil or at least duped by evil" meme, and I was disappointed to see it recapitulated here.

Scattercat, I sympathize. Really. And personally, I'd be happy to see more fiction come in that shows people of faith as well-developed characters, including Christians and Catholics. (Moar awesome Quaker fiction STAT!) Seriously - stories that wrestle with faith or are spiritualy provocative or display people of faith as strong characters make me very, very happy. As long as it's not wishfulfillment, and as long as it's good, of course.

Regarding this story? For me, Furness was a well-developed and thoughtful character who went to the dark side, and I didn't have a problem buying his journey, and didn't really feel like it was a stereotype. But I certainly understand where you're coming from.

That said, I don't think PodCastle has a history of discriminating against people of faith. We've run several stories in the past year that put them in the spotlight. "Hooves and the Hovel of Abdel Jameela" (http://podcastle.org/2010/05/03/podcastle-102-hooves-and-the-hovel-of-abdel-jameela/) and "The Dybuuk in the Bottle" (http://podcastle.org/2009/09/18/podcastle-070-the-dybbuk-in-the-bottle/) come to mind right off the top of my head. It'd be nice to see stories that feature priests or preachers, but honestly - I can't think of too many (any?) I've read in the last year in the PodCastle slush.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Unblinking on September 21, 2010, 04:43:25 PM
But how many atheists threaten to hold Quran bonfires? Or suggest that Muslims - as a whole - are evil? I, personally, haven't met one.

The former--I don't know of any.  The latter--I knew a few in high school.

I'm not sure I disagree with the overall point, because you can find a religious extremist who will do just about anything.  But it just seemed like too much of a generalization.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Swamp on September 21, 2010, 05:03:33 PM
That said, I don't think PodCastle has a history of discriminating against people of faith. We've run several stories in the past year that put them in the spotlight. "Hooves and the Hovel of Abdel Jameela" (http://podcastle.org/2010/05/03/podcastle-102-hooves-and-the-hovel-of-abdel-jameela/) and "The Dybuuk in the Bottle" (http://podcastle.org/2009/09/18/podcastle-070-the-dybbuk-in-the-bottle/) come to mind right off the top of my head. It'd be nice to see stories that feature priests or preachers, but honestly - I can't think of too many (any?) I've read in the last year in the PodCastle slush.

Podcastle has not had a history of discriminating against people of faith.  I was speaking in general terms, as in more often than not, if there is a preist or religious person in a spec fic story, they are played as either the fool or oppressor, and often not well-developed characters.  Furnass was pretty well fleshed out.

BTW, the Quran-burning reverend guy was an idiot.  (Don't even want to look up his name to give him any more publicity.)  Even most of his own congregation didn't support him, and there were only 50 people to start with.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: DKT on September 21, 2010, 05:23:02 PM
I'm not sure I disagree with the overall point, because you can find a religious extremist who will do just about anything.  But it just seemed like too much of a generalization.


Yeah, that I get, and fair enough.

That said, I don't think PodCastle has a history of discriminating against people of faith. We've run several stories in the past year that put them in the spotlight. "Hooves and the Hovel of Abdel Jameela" (http://podcastle.org/2010/05/03/podcastle-102-hooves-and-the-hovel-of-abdel-jameela/) and "The Dybuuk in the Bottle" (http://podcastle.org/2009/09/18/podcastle-070-the-dybbuk-in-the-bottle/) come to mind right off the top of my head. It'd be nice to see stories that feature priests or preachers, but honestly - I can't think of too many (any?) I've read in the last year in the PodCastle slush.

Podcastle has not had a history of discriminating against people of faith.  I was speaking in general terms, as in more often than not, if there is a preist or religious person in a spec fic story, they are played as either the fool or oppressor, and often not well-developed characters.  Furnass was pretty well fleshed out.

BTW, the Quran-burning reverend guy was an idiot.  (Don't even want to look up his name to give him any more publicity.)  Even most of his own congregation didn't support him, and there were only 50 people to start with.

Swamp, I didn't think you implied anything else. I'm not sure Scattercat was suggesting anything specifically about PC, either - I took it as a generalization of the speculative genre, and was trying to use PC's history as a reference. And like I said, I sympathize. Poorly realized caricatures are frustrating for me to read, too.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Scattercat on September 21, 2010, 05:44:27 PM
It was the fact that Furness started out so well-developed that made me so disappointed, actually.  I was enjoying the interaction between the two characters, but that lasted only as long as Furness' doubts; as soon as he rediscovered his faith (with Alethia re-igniting his conversion experience), he became Other, and it was strongly implied (from the similarity of the two events) that his conversion in the first place was also the work of a demonic being like Alethia.  In other words, the story starts out with an interesting, conflicted man of faith and ends with the revelation that all faith is the tool of evil.  The only proper faith, it is implied, is the sort of stubborn self-reliance Ash displays, and everything else is suspect.

PodCastle has been well above average in selecting thoughtful pieces with regard to most touchy subjects.  I didn't find this particular story unpalatable or offensive; I was just vaguely bummed that I was seeing Ye Olde Evil Preacher again.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Grayven on September 23, 2010, 12:38:30 AM
This story was really fun.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Wilson Fowlie on September 23, 2010, 04:11:23 AM
I didn't find this particular story unpalatable or offensive; I was just vaguely bummed that I was seeing Ye Olde Evil Preacher again.

I suspect you'll continue to see YOEP in fiction for as long as we continue to see him (and occasionally, but rarely, her) in the news reports.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Duriyah on September 23, 2010, 10:45:56 PM
I just got around to listening to this yesterday. I have to say I thoroughly enjoyed it! I was hooked from the beginning to end, waiting to see what happened next. I liked seeing the bits of this alternate universe parceled out a little at a time as the story unfolded.

I loved the reading, too. I used to listen to books on tape years ago. Bob Eccles reading has an even, professional quality that was reminiscent to me of the readers on those old audio books. Good times!
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Silvrayla on September 24, 2010, 12:57:11 AM
I really enjoyed this story. It kept me interested the entire time. I am quickly becoming an M.K. Hobbson fan.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Azarel on September 24, 2010, 07:36:30 AM
I loved this story.  I like stories based in real (current or historical) setting that add a dash of the supernatural.
I will for sure buy M.K. Hobson's book (if available on Kindle)
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: mcjoe on September 25, 2010, 01:14:57 AM
Interesting mix of fantasy and western genres. Fun story with a good ending. Looking forward to picking up a copy of The Native Star.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: icegirl on September 26, 2010, 01:54:18 AM
I didn't love this one - don't know if it was the style of the narrator or just the style of the prose, but I couldn't get past it enough to listen to the entire story....

Native Star, on the other hand, is a winner - looking forward to reading the whole thing - bringing in to my bookstore for sure!
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: mbrennan on September 27, 2010, 06:57:27 AM
I quite enjoyed this one, especially the sense of depth to the world.  I want to know more about demons in the Old West, how they fit in with humans, etc; even something like the naming of the demons felt like it had a story behind it.

I did have a few issues at the beginning and the end, though.  My end-related complaint has already been covered by previous commentators; I felt like things wrapped up too quickly for me to fully grasp what they meant.  The beginning . . . because the ep was so long, I listened in two installments, first for about half an hour and then for the remainder.  During the second session, I really enjoyed myself, much more than I expected based on my earlier evidence.  The beginning of the story presents a conflict, but my recollection (I haven't gone back to check) is that it does so in kind of an omniscient fashion, such that I didn't realize for a while that Ash was going to be the central character.  This was coupled with fairly extensive description and elaboration of details, of the sort that I think I would have liked just fine in print, but which felt too slow to really work in audio.  As a result, I didn't really start to engage until the story followed Ash and Furness and Squaw Bess off to their own scene, at which point the closer focus made things more compelling to me.

(I also would have liked Squaw Bess to be a more active part of the story, rather than the all-but-voiceless "girl" for most of it -- but that's less a flaw in this particular story, and more a gripe about the pattern it's a part of: the western is not a genre known for its well-rounded, proactive female characters.  I want more stories that break the pattern.)
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: christa on September 27, 2010, 11:25:11 AM
New to podcastle and new to the forum so not sure how to post other than hitting reply on another post.  Anyway, over the past week I have subscibed and listened to many stories.  This is one of my favourites. 
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Julio on September 28, 2010, 02:17:35 PM
Very nice story. I kind of like the more traditional fantasy than some stories that are here on podcastle. The way magic works makes me think of Sanderson who writes a lot not only using different magic systems and really fleshing them out, but also about how to write them, and about his ideas on soft versus hard magic. I am very much a fan of hard, within rules, constrained magic.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Sylvan on October 05, 2010, 04:17:13 PM
This is the kind of world I love the most.

Here we have a typically-known creature (a demon) mingled with icons that those of us native to the United States really identify with (the Old West). Also, the magic involved -while impressive- is not really the stereotypical Dungeons & Dragons type that we see saturating video games and stories all over the place.

But best of all were the characterizations. The relationships were what made this work: both intra-human and intra-human-demon.

I'm definitely going to pick up "Native Star".

Yours,
Sylvan (Dave)
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Thomas Daulton on October 07, 2010, 05:04:58 AM
I'm not usually a fan of Westerns -- even Weird Westerns had better be pretty darn good to get a smile out of me.  This one got a smile out of me.  The world-building and the character-building were absolutely lavish, at least for about 2/3 of the story at minimum.  (The reader's differentiated voices were also superb, although I would have liked it if the narrator-voice had a bit more of an accent.  The characters' voices had a lot of passion, but the narration struck me as dispassionate.  Perhaps because Ash was supposed to be so rational, but Ash wasn't even in the first couple minutes of the story!)

Unfortunately I agree with some of the other commenters that the final confrontation was resolved rather abruptly, glibly and with a lot of vague innuendo that sped by without me really understanding it (I backed up the "tape" and listened to it several times, and parts of it still lost me).  I kinda get the impression that Ash was falling in love with the being formerly known as Squaw Bess, and that now that she was revealed, he would have to find love somewhere else -- and then sacrifice that love in order to progress in power.  Bit of a dark twist, if I'm interpreting it correctly.  But I often get befuddled when the plot points turn on Love... guess I'm just too much of an automaton myself (hence my avatar)...

I concur with Scattercat that the preacher-as-unwitting-tool-of-evil is a bit of a cliche, and predictable.  It apparently doesn't bother me as much as it does 'cat, though... because the alternative can often be worse.  When the man of faith is presented as being right and justified... even if that faith so generic that the sectarianism doesn't turn off the reader... the result often ranges from the saccharine and treacly, (I hate reading Panglossian "just have faith and it'll all turn out all right" stories; whether the believer is religious or New-Age-Self-Esteem-y "believe in yourself")... through the pedantic and moralizing.  The character can even turn out buffoonish without the author meaning him to... (you can accidentally create a Ned Flanders).  With so many different ways for the faithful character to fail, well, in some ways I'm kinda glad more authors don't try.  Authors should always try for excellence, of course, but in the end I'd rather read more of this tried-and-true cliche than more of the treacly, pedantic failures (see, for example, http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/left_behind/ (http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/left_behind/) ).

On the whole, nevertheless, back to MKH's story, it was well worth the time I spent listening to it, just for the juicy world-building. 
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Gamercow on October 18, 2010, 04:10:32 PM
It was the fact that Furness started out so well-developed that made me so disappointed, actually.  I was enjoying the interaction between the two characters, but that lasted only as long as Furness' doubts; as soon as he rediscovered his faith (with Alethia re-igniting his conversion experience), he became Other, and it was strongly implied (from the similarity of the two events) that his conversion in the first place was also the work of a demonic being like Alethia.  In other words, the story starts out with an interesting, conflicted man of faith and ends with the revelation that all faith is the tool of evil.  The only proper faith, it is implied, is the sort of stubborn self-reliance Ash displays, and everything else is suspect.

PodCastle has been well above average in selecting thoughtful pieces with regard to most touchy subjects.  I didn't find this particular story unpalatable or offensive; I was just vaguely bummed that I was seeing Ye Olde Evil Preacher again.

I didn't see it this way.  I took Furness' original conversion as quite possibly an angelic possession, rather than a demonic one.  After all, if demons exist in this world, why not angels?  Additionally, I saw a couple of spots where MK was trying to show that Furness wasn't an evil man, or even a tool of evil, just short-sighted.  After all, he did indicate that they supplicated for relief, not murder.  Furness, like extremists of any belief(theist vs. athiest, mac vs. windows, honda vs toyota) often find themselves to be close minded, and that close mindedness leads to their undoing. 
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: yicheng on November 03, 2010, 04:59:09 PM
I liked the story over all.  The world-building was interesting.  I haven't read too much of the 'weird western' genre, but it sounds pretty fun, like a story version of the Red Dead Redemption Zombie Plague game.

I felt that there was a lot of unanswered questions regarding the cosmology of the story.  After finishing, I wasn't sure exactly what happened at the end.  So Squaw Bess was actually a Demon, but Demons are actually Angels?  How exactly did Furness destroy Timos?  What was the significance of the Demons coming from Greece?  How does a Demon Agent get his power?  What's the role of the Judeo-Christian God in all this?

Also, it felt a bit weird for a Warlock to end up having such a strong sense of morality.  I mean, don't they have to sell their soul and sacrifice babies in exchange for those powers?  Why would a warlock care if Squaw Bess was innocent or not?  And if he did care, why would he have been a warlock?  It seems like a more realistic reaction would have been to just turn her over to the demons in order to curry favor.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: DKT on November 03, 2010, 05:41:02 PM
Also, it felt a bit weird for a Warlock to end up having such a strong sense of morality.  I mean, don't they have to sell their soul and sacrifice babies in exchange for those powers? 

No, that's not how they get their powers. What led you to that conclusion? Was it something in the story or an underlying trope from other stories?
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: yicheng on November 03, 2010, 09:27:38 PM
Also, it felt a bit weird for a Warlock to end up having such a strong sense of morality.  I mean, don't they have to sell their soul and sacrifice babies in exchange for those powers? 

No, that's not how they get their powers. What led you to that conclusion? Was it something in the story or an underlying trope from other stories?

No, I don't mean from the story.   But in the general popular mythos, I believe a Warlock/Witch is said to sacrifice their soul and supplicate to the Devil in exchange for supernatural powers.  I've always thought warlock = evil.  Am I wrong?
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: DKT on November 03, 2010, 09:35:03 PM
Well, in regards to this story - yeah, it's a bit off. And although I think that's generally how warlocks are stereotyped, there's always folk like Dr. Strange (or even Alan Moore).

FWIW, witches aren't evil either (see Harry Potter, Wizard of Oz, etc.), although some of them certainly are.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: eytanz on November 03, 2010, 09:40:20 PM
Also, it felt a bit weird for a Warlock to end up having such a strong sense of morality.  I mean, don't they have to sell their soul and sacrifice babies in exchange for those powers? 

No, that's not how they get their powers. What led you to that conclusion? Was it something in the story or an underlying trope from other stories?

No, I don't mean from the story.   But in the general popular mythos, I believe a Warlock/Witch is said to sacrifice their soul and supplicate to the Devil in exchange for supernatural powers.  I've always thought warlock = evil.  Am I wrong?


I think that people use these terms in so many different ways these days that it's unsafe to make any such assumption.

"Warlock" is less commonly used, but "witch" is used simply to mean "female magician" in a lot of literature. "Warlock" can just be another word for "wizard" as well. Nothing in this story suggests to me that the author meant the term to carry any negative connotation, definitely not anything as particular as scrificing babies.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Wilson Fowlie on November 04, 2010, 02:18:58 AM
I refer you to the example of the Winter Warlock in the Rankin/Bass animated Christmas special, Santa Claus Is Coming to Town.  When we meet him, he is an evil warlock (well, as evil as a warlock can be in a show for kids).  Not long thereafter, though, the innate kindness of one K. Kringle unfreezes his heart and he becomes good.  But he's still a warlock.

That being said, I think there can often be more of a connotation of evil in 'warlock' than in 'wizard'.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Sgarre1 on November 04, 2010, 04:41:01 AM
Quote
That being said, I think there can often be more of a connotation of evil in 'warlock' than in 'wizard'.

Yes, that's true.  And wondering why, I did a quick check on dictionary.com.  Wizard derives from "wise", whereas Warlock derives from oath-breaker or covenant betrayer, so there's a negative connotation in the root.  Sorcerer, interestingly, derives from "one who casts lots" or soothsayer/diviner, which seems fairly neutral.

I've always loved the vagueness of witches as characters: satan-sold black conjurer, misunderstood wise woman/midwife, walker on the paths between good and bad, out for her own good but bitter, out for the good of the community but scapegoat by choice, matriarchal holdover in the positive (fertility rites), matriarchal holdover in the negative (sacrificing children), triple-goddess, wyrd woman, soothsayer, femme fatale, bored suburban housewife looking for a little action... witches got it all going on!  Also, I've often thought it quite charming that occasionally you run across a conception of the witch as monster - not monstrous actions but actual monster - in like not "a human who just happened to learn these powers or access them", but "never human", the monster-witch.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Unblinking on November 04, 2010, 01:54:17 PM
Yeah, I tend to think of Warlock as evil, wizard as neutral, though I don't have a problem with them being used otherwise.  I think sometimes the word "wizard" is avoided because it's too strongly associated with Gandalf, with D&D campaigns, with Harry Potter, in the eye of the public?
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: birdless on November 04, 2010, 07:27:09 PM
It's intelligent discussions like these that make me miss this place so much and keep me coming back! Not that i intentionally leave, just that life brings up distractions that break my addiction for a while. Anyway, most of my commentary has already been stated in one way or another by other posters, and probably stated better than i would have stated it. I strongly echo most of Unblinking's comments. For the record, i, too, am a Christian, and tire of the 'man of faith' being the cast as the ignorant or blind character who unwittingly gets used for evil rather than good. On the other hand, i understand how this character can be so readily available to be this plot concoction. And like T. Daulton explains, the reciprocal is often worse. I'm trying to work out some sort of compelling story where the faithful are not rewarded for their faith, but retain their faith anyway, which is very much a part of real life. I'd leave it up to the reader to decide what their commitment to their faith means later on down the road (reward? cynicism? etc).

I enjoyed this story, all in all. I felt that the author (with apologies to M.K. for my assumptions) hasn't really figured out what faith in God/a deity really means, but did a pretty good job of trying to understand it from the character's point of view. The characters were certainly well developed. The ending was rather abrupt, but it didn't ruin the story for me. It really made me want to pick up the book, though!
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: yicheng on November 04, 2010, 11:00:30 PM
I think that people use these terms in so many different ways these days that it's unsafe to make any such assumption.

"Warlock" is less commonly used, but "witch" is used simply to mean "female magician" in a lot of literature. "Warlock" can just be another word for "wizard" as well. Nothing in this story suggests to me that the author meant the term to carry any negative connotation, definitely not anything as particular as scrificing babies.

Another reason for my assumptions is that the warlock's powers in the story seem to specifically center around having knowledge of demon magic or manipulating demons.  While he recognizes God's power, he simply sees the divine as another potential source, and not The Power as Furness and the God-fearing folk do.  From the real world, it seems pretty similar to Voudoun (Voodoo) as practiced by Africans and Carribeans, and which typically require a blood offering of some sort (usually animal, but apocryphal tales exist of human sacrifices, too).
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Gamercow on November 05, 2010, 07:36:13 PM
I felt that the author (with apologies to M.K. for my assumptions) hasn't really figured out what faith in God/a deity really means, but did a pretty good job of trying to understand it from the character's point of view.

Isn't faith a very personal thing?  What you would consider faith in a deity someone else would consider heresy, or not faith, and what someone else considers faith in a deity you may consider heresy or not faith.  Some have faith that Jesus will make that tornado swerve, while others have faith that the Threefold Law will provide someone with their just desserts.  Some have faith that when they die, they will be rewarded for a virtuous life with virgin mates, others have faith that when they die, they will be rewarded for a virtuous life with a better life in reincarnation. 

Isn't faith itself just belief without proof, generally spiritual? It is neither good nor bad, it just is.  I'm not clear on why you think that M.K. hasn't figured out what faith in a deity "really means".
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: birdless on November 08, 2010, 08:18:08 PM
I felt that the author (with apologies to M.K. for my assumptions) hasn't really figured out what faith in God/a deity really means, but did a pretty good job of trying to understand it from the character's point of view.

Isn't faith a very personal thing?  What you would consider faith in a deity someone else would consider heresy, or not faith, and what someone else considers faith in a deity you may consider heresy or not faith.  Some have faith that Jesus will make that tornado swerve, while others have faith that the Threefold Law will provide someone with their just desserts.  Some have faith that when they die, they will be rewarded for a virtuous life with virgin mates, others have faith that when they die, they will be rewarded for a virtuous life with a better life in reincarnation. 

Isn't faith itself just belief without proof, generally spiritual? It is neither good nor bad, it just is.  I'm not clear on why you think that M.K. hasn't figured out what faith in a deity "really means".
As i understand the definition of heresy, it does not mean "without faith," just faith in a standard that isn't generally accepted. I'm sure some of my beliefs some churches would find heretical. The word doesn't often find its way into my vocabulary unless it's for levity (e.g. Someone else:"Episodes 1-3 are way better than 4-6." Me:"Heresy!"). Anyway, I used the word "felt" because that's how i felt without being able to necessarily point to a specific passage to confirm it on a one-time listen, and her comments on the board sort of confirmed my 'feeling.' I don't know if i can explain this, but i would contend that there's more to faith than just mere "belief"—it's deeply spiritual. It may start with mere belief, but it would be hard for me to define it in it's entirety in so simple a word. It's just that the idea that something is only powerful as much as you believe in it seems a ridiculous thing to believe in. Unblinking put it best here (http://forum.escapeartists.net/index.php?topic=4377.msg78658#msg78658). At any rate, it didn't destroy the story for me at all; in my mind the characters drew upon some power that was mistaken as God or faith. I didn't mean to offend Hobson nor anyone else with that post, so if i did, my apologies.

And I guess to your first question, "Is faith a very personal thing?" then i guess i would say, yes, i suppose, but not so personal that i don't mind discussing it with someone; if they believe differently, that's fine, and i am often interested in knowing why they believe that way. Sometimes it helps me understand my own faith better, sometimes it actually gives me more reason to believe the way i do, and sometimes it brings to light things that i should reevaluate. So, yeah, i mean, it's personal, but not in a "private parts" but more in the way i choose to dress! (that made me chuckle for some reason; i think because it's such a bad analogy and i can imagine it being over-analyzed)
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Gamercow on November 09, 2010, 03:03:46 PM
i would contend that there's more to faith than just mere "belief"—it's deeply spiritual. It may start with mere belief, but it would be hard for me to define it in it's entirety in so simple a word. It's just that the idea that something is only powerful as much as you believe in it seems a ridiculous thing to believe in.

I think I see what you are saying, that the characters in this story lacked the depth of belief that you have come to associate with faith.  Thank you for clarifying
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: yicheng on November 09, 2010, 03:52:40 PM
It would seem like, in general, religion and Faith (with a capital 'F') isn't really depicted very well in Science Fiction and Fantasy.  Most books (e.g. Dragonlance) tend to get it wrong, and I think the reason is that in Reality there is very little certainly about what's actually really going on.  There are many viewpoints and interpretations of the same real-world events.  A very tragic event to some, may be God's retribution for mankind's sins to others, or it may be karmic repercussions of a world full of hatred, or it might be an insidious global conspiracy, or any number of other things.  Faith and Religion gives us the room to understand, give our personal interpretations to these events, and come to terms with them.

But the entire point of Sci-fi and Fantasy is exactly the opposite:  The whole idea is to provide an escapist alternate reality, a reality that's completely different than ours, which the author has to construct and spoon-feed us piece-by-piece.  Unless the author's very gifted, he/she is not going to have the bandwidth left to talk about different secondary interpretations of that reality.  So religion and faith end up having very little "wiggle-room" for interpretation in that universe:  The religion is either Wrong or Right in the Canon, and no in-between.  Faith is either the blind fanaticism of a zealot, or a vaguely secular humanist "belief" system, or most commonly some mechanics of the universe itself (i.e. divine magic): none of which resemble real-world Faith.

The only book that I've seen get this right is Dan Simmons' Hyperion series.  Frank Herbert's Dune series may get this, but I haven't read enough of the series to be able to tell.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: kibitzer on November 10, 2010, 01:33:08 AM
The only book that I've seen get this right is Dan Simmons' Hyperion series.  Frank Herbert's Dune series may get this, but I haven't read enough of the series to be able to tell.

Big call! I happen to agree on Hyperion (but I think Simmons is a genius). What about Orson Scott Card's Tales of Alvin Maker?
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: birdless on November 10, 2010, 04:54:06 AM
i would contend that there's more to faith than just mere "belief"—it's deeply spiritual. It may start with mere belief, but it would be hard for me to define it in it's entirety in so simple a word. It's just that the idea that something is only powerful as much as you believe in it seems a ridiculous thing to believe in.

I think I see what you are saying, that the characters in this story lacked the depth of belief that you have come to associate with faith.  Thank you for clarifying
Yes! Well put! Thanks for the help! =)
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: birdless on November 10, 2010, 05:00:11 AM
It would seem like, in general, religion and Faith (with a capital 'F') isn't really depicted very well in Science Fiction and Fantasy.  Most books (e.g. Dragonlance) tend to get it wrong, and I think the reason is that in Reality there is very little certainly about what's actually really going on.  There are many viewpoints and interpretations of the same real-world events.  A very tragic event to some, may be God's retribution for mankind's sins to others, or it may be karmic repercussions of a world full of hatred, or it might be an insidious global conspiracy, or any number of other things.  Faith and Religion gives us the room to understand, give our personal interpretations to these events, and come to terms with them.

But the entire point of Sci-fi and Fantasy is exactly the opposite:  The whole idea is to provide an escapist alternate reality, a reality that's completely different than ours, which the author has to construct and spoon-feed us piece-by-piece.  Unless the author's very gifted, he/she is not going to have the bandwidth left to talk about different secondary interpretations of that reality.  So religion and faith end up having very little "wiggle-room" for interpretation in that universe:  The religion is either Wrong or Right in the Canon, and no in-between.  Faith is either the blind fanaticism of a zealot, or a vaguely secular humanist "belief" system, or most commonly some mechanics of the universe itself (i.e. divine magic): none of which resemble real-world Faith.

The only book that I've seen get this right is Dan Simmons' Hyperion series.  Frank Herbert's Dune series may get this, but I haven't read enough of the series to be able to tell.
Sorry for the double post (i read the quoted post after my last post), but i just really felt this was so insightful! Plus i appreciated that you separated Faith and Religion. And those do seem to be the two extremes. But that approaches the best answer i've seen as to why it's so hard to write a compelling "real world" faith.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: yicheng on November 10, 2010, 10:09:45 PM
The only book that I've seen get this right is Dan Simmons' Hyperion series.  Frank Herbert's Dune series may get this, but I haven't read enough of the series to be able to tell.

Big call! I happen to agree on Hyperion (but I think Simmons is a genius). What about Orson Scott Card's Tales of Alvin Maker?

I confess that I haven't read that one, but I shall add it my list.  :-)
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: LaShawn on December 10, 2010, 05:28:22 PM
I'm really digging the conversation on faith. Very thought-provoking.

But for the story, I hate to say it, but I didn't enjoy it. Not that I don't like Westerns, but for the demons being referred to as "Hell-N-----". What bothered wasn't so much as that was being used, it was perfectly justifible, and I understood its use. It's just that the use of it made me wonder, Well, where *are* all the black people? You have a town that have a diverse group of Indians, Asians and whites, but no blacks. And the use of "Hell-N----" for the demons kept hammering that fact in to me, distracting me. Is this a world where bringing blacks over as slaves never happened? Is the demon race suppose to stand in for them?

Thus I couldn't really enjoy it like I wanted to. Which is a shame because, other than that, I found it a thralling story.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: yicheng on December 22, 2010, 06:50:31 PM
I came across this relevant quote while listening to a history podcast:

"The trouble with fiction... is that it makes too much sense. Reality never makes sense." -- Aldous Huxley

Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Sgarre1 on December 22, 2010, 07:42:57 PM
“Books say: She did this because. Life says: She did this. Books are where things are explained to you; life is where things aren’t. I’m not surprised some people prefer books. Books make sense of life. The only problem is that the lives they make sense of are other people’s lives, never our own.”

Julian Barnes, FLAUBERT’S PARROT
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Unblinking on December 28, 2010, 05:44:22 PM
“Books say: She did this because. Life says: She did this. Books are where things are explained to you; life is where things aren’t. I’m not surprised some people prefer books. Books make sense of life. The only problem is that the lives they make sense of are other people’s lives, never our own.”

Julian Barnes, FLAUBERT’S PARROT


Invent a book that can make sense of the reader's life, and you will be rich.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Fenrix on January 14, 2012, 06:13:38 AM
So I went to add the book to my "to read" pile on Goodreads, and again Felicia Day pops up with a four-star review. I think she may be a fan. Y'all need to send her a note and ask her to read a story. Seriously.

Stranger things have happened. Wil Wheaton professed his love for PseudoPod, after all.
Title: Re: PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word
Post by: Unblinking on October 06, 2014, 08:54:37 PM
I named this as #10 in my fave Podcastle of all time:
http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2014/10/podcast-spotlight-podcastle/