Escape Artists
Escape Pod => About Escape Pod => Topic started by: tabby90 on September 22, 2010, 05:34:13 PM
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I love listening to feedback on previous episodes, but currently it's missing something. I need more than the name of the previous story to associate. Especially when feedback is running 8 episodes behind. Can you give just a few words to remind us which story we're discussing?
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This is going to sound harsh and I apologize in advance, but the feedback of late is really hurting the quality of the overall professional feel of the podcast production. I am sure that Bill Peters is a great person and an enormous help to Escape Artists, but the sad truth is, he can't read and has trouble enunciating. Part of the problem is the bar is set so high by other aspects of the production, which are amazing. Really hope you can improve that spot going forward.
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Agree with MC Joe. I know not everybody can be Steve Eley (actually, There Can Be Only One :)), but Peters' reading is so awkward and stilted, it makes the early days of Podcastle sound polished.
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Gimme a break. Or rather, give Bill a break. For a long time, there was no feedback, and people complained about that and so now there's feedback again and people are complaining because it isn't James Earl Jones doing the reading. (Yeah, yeah, I know no one said that.)
Neither of those last two posts meet the standard of The One Rule (http://forum.escapeartists.net/index.php?topic=3289.0) of the forums. This kind of comment, if you have to say it at all, should be sent privately to the podcast's editor, or to the CEO of Escape Artists, not aired in public.
Bill is taking the time to read through the feedback, find representative quotes, copy them into a document, add transitional comments and record the whole thing. Every week. How much time a week are you donating to Escape Artists?
I would suggest to Bill that he consider reading the feedback section just a little more slowly; that may help the words flow more smoothly. Also, I find that when I'm doing a story recording, I almost always record it a second time and it comes out much better. It takes a lot more time, so it might not be entirely practical, but I find it helps to get a better sense of what words can trip up your tongue when you're saying them aloud.
That being said, I do second tabby90's suggestion. I said something similar recently about Podcastle feedback myself; a few words describing the story under discussion would help me get my mind in the right place. I think Bill did that in episode 259, in fact; if so, thanks, Bill!
(Edited to fix a badly written sentence.)
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Bill is taking the time to read through the feedback, find representative quotes, copy them into a document, add transitional comments and record the whole thing. Every week. How much time a week are you donating to Escape Artists?
I listen, don't I? :P
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I listen, don't I? :P
*throws a chair at stePH*
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I'm just happy to have feedback!!
Give Bill a break. He is willing to do this! Every week! I am sure he's learning a lot and will get better with practice. I, for one, have no problem with EscapePod supporting on-the-job training. If you do have criticism, why not make it constructive, so that Bill can learn from it and improve.
Yeah, Bill! Thanks for all your efforts.
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I'm just happy to have feedback!!
Give Bill a break. He is willing to do this! Every week! I am sure he's learning a lot and will get better with practice. I, for one, have no problem with EscapePod supporting on-the-job training. If you do have criticism, why not make it constructive, so that Bill can learn from it and improve.
Yeah, Bill! Thanks for all your efforts.
This forum needs Like buttons. :)
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This forum needs Like buttons. :)
Like!
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I'd be curious to know how many people actually listen to the feedback portion. I ask, because the most recent Escape Pod (as of this writing, The Speed of Dreams) had the audible advert crowbarred in before the feedback section. Is it a requirement of the contract that it has to appear before an item that could be considered an easy switch off point?
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I like the feedback section - I miss it when it is left out and I enjoy the ARM's reading. Keep it up. We can all do without ads in our lives, but at least EA keeps them to the least annoying presentation possible.
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I don't really have a good response to the criticism except to say that yes, Mur and Norm are far better than me at the audio work, and I'm working on my end of it and hopefully getting better and more comfortable as things go on. And I will try to put more context into future feedback segments. Thanks to each of my defenders.
I'd be curious to know how many people actually listen to the feedback portion. I ask, because the most recent Escape Pod (as of this writing, The Speed of Dreams) had the audible advert crowbarred in before the feedback section. Is it a requirement of the contract that it has to appear before an item that could be considered an easy switch off point?
I haven't read the contract, but the placement of the ad there was more that we didn't get the order for the ad until after Norm had recorded the outro segment, and for various reasons it was much easier/cohesive sounding to have Mur read it and splice it in there.
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Thanks for doing the feedback, Bill! And I like to have the feedback in the episodes again. Partly because I get an irrational thrill out of the occasional appearance of my avatar name, but also because I think it gives it more of a "yup, the magazine does listen to your feedback" riff to the world.
I think that Bill does fine, and he'll just get better as time goes on. Back in the earliest days of Pseudopod, Mur was the host, and in the first few episodes people left comments saying she sounded overly formal. Gradually she seemed to get more comfortable in the role, and now she couldn't sound better. The exact same thing goes for Norm Sherman's early days on the Drabblecast--he got that silky smooth hosting voice through practice.
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I think that Bill does fine, and he'll just get better as time goes on. Back in the earliest days of Pseudopod, Mur was the host, and in the first few episodes people left comments saying she sounded overly formal. Gradually she seemed to get more comfortable in the role, and now she couldn't sound better. The exact same thing goes for Norm Sherman's early days on the Drabblecast--he got that silky smooth hosting voice through practice.
Public speaking; group debate; narration; all these things get better with practice and it's the only way to do it!
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I came to the forum today specifically to leave feedback on feedback, and was pleased to see that there is discussion in progress.
Currently, I find the feedback section the weakest part of Escape Pod. The reading is halting and sometimes suffering from mispronunciation. It is especially jarring considering the generally excellent quality of the story narration that precedes it.
This isn't flaming Bill, it's constructive criticism. Perhaps, if he sees this criticism, he will be motivated to work to improve and everyone will ultimately be happier. Or maybe reading really isn't his strong point and he will continue to donate his efforts to editing the feedback and the reading could be done by someone else.
If you listen to a friend singing, and they've invited your comment (which Escape Pod has, even if Bill has not personally), and if they were flat, it does no one any good if you just smile and say non-commitally, "That was nice."
It sounds to me that, if he does not do so already, Bill could benefit by doing a practice run reading before the production performance. And look up pronunciation of any unfamiliar words.
One production note: Continuing to play the theme music over the feedback is jarring, makes it harder to understand what is being read. Fade out the music once you get into the feedback; you can fade it in again at the end.
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I am sorry to post something negative as I am a great fan of EP, and I echo an earlier comment re. Bill P. assuredly being a good guy and doing a good job behind the scenes at EP, BUT (and this may just be me) I'm sorry to say that I find the accent impossible to understand. Usually I am in the car when listening which doesn't help sound quality but I have tried again at home and sorry Bill but this Scotsman just can't understand what you are saying. For example I just listened to EP261, there's feedback about something I (heart) Escape Pod - sounds like I'm too late for that one, whatever it is / was, ah well teach me to visit the forums more often!
PLEASE no comebacks from all you wise people re. Scots people not knowing English (I get daily abuse on this as I live in England, sigh) and apologies Bill, I can only suggest maybe I am in a minority of one? To try and be constructive - what would help - slower, more distinct pronunciation, more variation in tone, I think. I also think it would be a big BIG improvement not to be competing with the closing music blasting away in the background.
BTW respect to anyone who does this for free! Never mind, Bill, you should hear ME speak, ha ha, makes Alasdair sound like cut glass upper crust English!
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I have to agree with the comments about the music with the feedback. I found it particularly loud (relative to the speaking) in the most recent episode. I suspect that made more of a difference to making out Bill's comments than any (well, most ;) ) accent issues.
I actually think that having the music underneath is not a bad thing in and of itself, but the sound engineer has to be careful to reduce its level (or boost that of the talking) appropriately, where 'appropriately' tends to mean 'a lot'. It's amazing how little competition it takes from one sound to make another one indecipherable.
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Personally, I dig the music during feedback. I did not notice it being too loud this last time (although it might have been). But I definitely would've noticed it if it hadn't been there.
So HA! See? You can't win!
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The music has been louder during the intro/outro as well. I think that started just after the Hugo stories. I just thought it was a choice. I haven't had a problem hearing, but I did notice it was louder.
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My 2 cents: Yay Bill for being brave enough to broadcast your voice! It takes guts to do so- I cringe every time I hear my own voice played back. Keep up the good work- you'll get better with practice.
I agree that the music volume has been a tad too loud in a few recent episodes. It's not *bad*, but I've had to rewind and listen over a few times to make out what was being said.
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Thanks for your thoughts on the production. I don't get to the boards nearly often enough, so I apologize for not answering sooner.
I was blessed to be allowed to take over the production several episodes back and have been trying to bring it up to the standard that it occupied before me coming into the picture. There have been ups and downs for many too many reasons to discuss, but I think I have hammered out most (there will always be something) of the issues and I was actually very pleased with the last episode (262-Cruciger).
I'll tone down the music that has been overwhelming to some of you. Please know that finding that happy medium has been one of the more difficult parts of this process. Particularly because -- like HTML renders differently in different browsers, on different days, in different climates, and depending on how gassy your dog is (sorry, designers' angst) </melodrama> -- these files sound different depending on what software and hardware you're using to listen to it. Trust me, I've screened the various episodes in at least four programs; on an iPod, my sony walkman cell phone, and three different computers; and through three sets of headphones, and they all sound different. Not to mention, like trying to get a moire out of an image in Photoshop, you can render a sound file three times the exact same way and get different results.
I don't say all this to garner sympathy, just to assure you that I'm working on it constantly and welcome your thoughts here, in IM (when I can take the time to talk), on Twitter (@mat_weller), or by email (matweller@gmail.com). I won't answer answer all requests -- that's to your benefit, I'm ungodly wordy (see: this post) -- but I will read them all and take them into consideration. Like everyone else that works on Escape Artists productions, I'm honored to be a part of this and want to make it the best it can be for you.
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these files sound different depending on what software and hardware you're using to listen to it.
I can vouch for that. Ask anyone who does serious sound engineering in general, in fact.
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I'd just like to add that I think Bill did a great job on the feedback segment in "Cruciger." When he started doing the segment, he was more than a little stiff and stilted, but it seems like practice is making perfect.
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This week's feedback on the end of "Fuel" was a good recording too. Sounding much more confident, less hesitant.
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My feedback on the feedback is I hit the "next" button. :) I appreciate it being included after the story.
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If I had one suggestion for Bill, it would be to read through his script a few times out loud to himself. I have the same problem of pausing in odd places, and find that helps me.
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The feedback gets better with each episode. 8)
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I agree with Sandikal. My own issue is more about what the point of it is. Does it work to encourage people that find the EA podcasts but who aren't on the boards to join? On the latest episode it was two comments from the thread about the latest Union Dues story. I'm not afraid to admit to my shallowness of getting a little moment of pleasure when something I wrote is read out but comics phased out their letters pages when the net rose to replace them as a way for people to disagree with one another and having Bill just read out a couple of people's comments without at least someone from EA or the writer or reader reply to issues raised as necessary seems a little silly.
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Feedback has been standard for EP/PC for a long time (EP just took a bit of a hiatus). It's also common practice for some other podcasts like Drabblecast. Its just a way to give a feel to what some other people thought of the previous story. Definitely an enticement to visit the forum if you want to hear more of the discussion.
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Feedback has been standard for EP/PC for a long time (EP just took a bit of a hiatus). It's also common practice for some other podcasts like Drabblecast. Its just a way to give a feel to what some other people thought of the previous story. Definitely an enticement to visit the forum if you want to hear more of the discussion.
Actually, drabblecast has quit doing feedback a few months back.
I really like the feedback segments - I think they definitely do entice more people to the forums (that's what brought me here, back in the day), and they also entice forum members to participate in the discussion. Also, I think it's just nice to have a positive reinforcement for good feedback, in addition to discouraging/shutting down inappropriate commentary.
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Feedback has been standard for EP/PC for a long time (EP just took a bit of a hiatus). It's also common practice for some other podcasts like Drabblecast. Its just a way to give a feel to what some other people thought of the previous story. Definitely an enticement to visit the forum if you want to hear more of the discussion.
Actually, drabblecast has quit doing feedback a few months back.
Huh, and I hadn't noticed. I guess that says something. :p
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Bill's feedback reading for EP265 was the best yet.
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I think they definitely do entice more people to the forums (that's what brought me here, back in the day), and they also entice forum members to participate in the discussion. Also, I think it's just nice to have a positive reinforcement for good feedback, in addition to discouraging/shutting down inappropriate commentary.
I came to the forums only because they shut down blog comments. :-P I can't not share my mind-shattering insights with the world. It would be cruel.
However, the feedback segment is fun and it may well be a good way to get people to come to the forums, I think; especially if they need to argue with someone who's clearly completely wrong about everything. I suspect the main utility would be in the small encouragement to post thoughtful and constructive commentary in the hopes of being singled out with that little nod of noteworthiness. "I liked it it was good" or "This story sucked" without further elucidation are both unhelpful comments, and making it clear that the Official Position endorses more thorough discussion is one way to try and shape the culture of a given community.
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To me the value of the feedback is to get a pulse on what others thought of a story. If you loved it and others loved it, then maybe you're on the right path and you'll seek out more by that author. If you loved it and others hated it, maybe you need to re-listen and figure out WHY you loved it. If everyone disliked it... well, there's a certain collective schadenfreude in knowing that everyone else got hurt just as much as you did. Makes you feel less alone. But if you hated it and everyone else liked it... feedback like that bothers me the most because it makes me feel like I missed something.
Case in point: there's a certain author who's very popular in genre fiction right now. His/her stories are appearing everywhere. But I have only read/heard two that I actually liked. The others ranged from middling to "make it stop!" This author has gone to Clarion West, has won awards, and is well on his/her way to becoming a successful full-time writer (if s/he isn't already). I use feedback (on the shows and on the forums) to try and figure out what exactly I am missing about his/her writing that makes everyone like it but me... well, NOT like it. I haven't found it yet.
Plus, yeah, there's a certain je ne sais quois about hearing your name in the feedback segment. It was very gratifying when mine was included in the very first feedback segment for Podcastle. When your feedback makes it into the segment, it makes you feel like you can influence the opinions of others... which is quite a powerful feeling.
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However, the feedback segment is fun and it may well be a good way to get people to come to the forums, I think; especially if they need to argue with someone who's clearly completely wrong about everything. I suspect the main utility would be in the small encouragement to post thoughtful and constructive commentary in the hopes of being singled out with that little nod of noteworthiness. "I liked it it was good" or "This story sucked" without further elucidation are both unhelpful comments, and making it clear that the Official Position endorses more thorough discussion is one way to try and shape the culture of a given community.
And yet, strangely, I got on PodCastle feedback just for saying "I liked this story." (Though what PC episode it was on, and which story I was commenting on, have both been forgotten.)
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in keeping with the journalism of the day, Steve followed a 'both sides' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGArqoF0TpQ) version of feedback when he was doing it. a couple people have said that they posted opinions they didn't really believe in order to hear their nicks during feedback.
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Well, that's lame...
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However, the feedback segment is fun and it may well be a good way to get people to come to the forums, I think; especially if they need to argue with someone who's clearly completely wrong about everything. I suspect the main utility would be in the small encouragement to post thoughtful and constructive commentary in the hopes of being singled out with that little nod of noteworthiness. "I liked it it was good" or "This story sucked" without further elucidation are both unhelpful comments, and making it clear that the Official Position endorses more thorough discussion is one way to try and shape the culture of a given community.
And yet, strangely, I got on PodCastle feedback just for saying "I liked this story." (Though what PC episode it was on, and which story I was commenting on, have both been forgotten.)
I. Well. Hrm.
That probably means something then.
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However, the feedback segment is fun and it may well be a good way to get people to come to the forums, I think; especially if they need to argue with someone who's clearly completely wrong about everything. I suspect the main utility would be in the small encouragement to post thoughtful and constructive commentary in the hopes of being singled out with that little nod of noteworthiness. "I liked it it was good" or "This story sucked" without further elucidation are both unhelpful comments, and making it clear that the Official Position endorses more thorough discussion is one way to try and shape the culture of a given community.
And yet, strangely, I got on PodCastle feedback just for saying "I liked this story." (Though what PC episode it was on, and which story I was commenting on, have both been forgotten.)
I. Well. Hrm.
That probably means something then.
It might; I think Dave said "...and stePH just said 'I liked this story.' If you know stePH, you'll understand how significant that is." Or something like that.
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Heh. Well. Yes. Probably. I'm trying to remember what story the feedback was for that episode...but drawing a blank. (It was on the Curandero and the Swede episode.)
But since people seem curious - yeah, generally when I do feedback I try to pick things people have said that are interesting, intelligent, or funny. Mostly, things that make me smile or think. I'm not always balanced - I tend to run more positive comments than critical comments (although, since I think we're generally awesome, I'd say it's a fair representation, yo!) That said, I do try and give people room to say they didn't like a story (and why) if they didn't, especially if an episode seemed to not go over well. One thing I usually don't pick up is when listeners try and tell the author how they wanted the story to be written or what would've made it more awesome.
But yeah - personally, I love doing the feedback segments. I think it help builds community and gets people excited to discuss the stories, and I love reading the discussions. When EP stopped doing feedback, I was sad, and I'm happy it's back now.
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I actually don't like the feedback on any of the 'casts. Two reasons: (1) it becomes a wit competition ("Your Majesty, you're like a big jam donut with cream on top"), (2) I hang out on the forums anyway so I already know the feedback.
I fully understand it being more appreciated by non-forumites. Just my $0.02.
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Heh. Well. Yes. Probably. I'm trying to remember what story the feedback was for that episode...but drawing a blank. (It was on the Curandero and the Swede episode.)
"One Paper Airplane Graffito Love Note".
Steph just said, "I liked this story a lot." Yeah. That's all stePH said about this story. If you know stePH from the Podcastle forums you'll understand why I'm using that quote. If you don't, well, you really should come visit him and us, at forums-dot-escapeartists-dot-net. We don't need to know your real name, but feel free to P.M. stePH your personal and private confessions.
:D Man, you crazy.
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You're a real stirrer DKT! ;)
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This (http://www.ftrain.com/wwic.html) is why I think the feedback is a good thing. I just didn't have the words to describe it before. It's a manifestation of WWIC.
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That's a really good article.
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That's a really good article.
Isn't it? I've been sharing it all over because I thought it was just a really nice encapsulation of why things work or don't work on the Internet.
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I actually don't like the feedback on any of the 'casts. Two reasons: (1) it becomes a wit competition ("Your Majesty, you're like a big jam donut with cream on top"), (2) I hang out on the forums anyway so I already know the feedback.
I fully understand it being more appreciated by non-forumites. Just my $0.02.
Totally agree. Those that get a thrill having their name mentioned are indeed a sad lot. Shutting off my player when it comes on is how I deal with that issue. If I desire other listeners views on a story why I just read them on the boards. Having someone read the comments they liked best serves no purpose as far as I can see.
My two pennies worth.
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I actually don't like the feedback on any of the 'casts. Two reasons: (1) it becomes a wit competition ("Your Majesty, you're like a big jam donut with cream on top"), (2) I hang out on the forums anyway so I already know the feedback.
I fully understand it being more appreciated by non-forumites. Just my $0.02.
Totally agree. Those that get a thrill having their name mentioned are indeed a sad lot. Shutting off my player when it comes on is how I deal with that issue. If I desire other listeners views on a story why I just read them on the boards. Having someone read the comments they liked best serves no purpose as far as I can see.
My two pennies worth.
1) I get a thrill out of hearing the names of people I only know from the forums mentioned in the feedback section. How sad does that make me? ;D
2) I particularly enjoyed the feedback before I joined the forums. It is a great way to get a sense of the opinions without having to spend time reading them all. Unfortunately, now that I am here, I'm hooked. But I still enjoy the feedback section, because I can't get to all the posts all the time.
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Shutting off my player when it comes on is how I deal with that issue.
I think that's unfortunate. Not because you're missing the feedback - I know it's not for everyone - but because you're also missing "our quote this week" at the end. I always enjoy hearing what the editors have found to go with the story. They almost always surprise and delight me. It's like getting a few bonus seconds of the story.
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The feedback is a great way to hook people into other episodes. "Wow, this story got tons of great mentions on the feedback, I should check it out!"
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There have recently been a couple of threads about the feedback section:
- http://forum.escapeartists.net/index.php?topic=4758.0
- http://forum.escapeartists.net/index.php?topic=4762.0
Those threads have been locked because of the thread duplication, but please everyone feel free to continue the discussion in this thread.
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I'm totally of the opinion that Bill can keep doing feedback as long as he wants. Nobody's forcing us to listen, and frankly he's getting a lot better at it. It's one thing to sit at your desk and throw bombs, and another altogether to put yourself out there for the world and open yourself to criticism. So I say "Go Bill!"
I wish I had thought of this sooner, but maybe for next year: remember when South Park aired a whole episode of Terrence and Phillip instead of the big reveal of Cartman's father? A beautiful April fool's joke would have been to let Bill narrate a whole episode. A great Asimov or Bradbury story...something treasured and wonderful. The sound of heads exploding all over the world and the forum meltdown would have been fantastic.
Well, a guy can dream....