Escape Artists

Escape Pod => Episode Comments => Topic started by: eytanz on April 29, 2012, 06:26:12 PM

Title: EP342: Certus Per Bellum
Post by: eytanz on April 29, 2012, 06:26:12 PM
EP342: Certus Per Bellum (http://escapepod.org/2012/04/28/ep342-certus-per-bellum/)

By S. Hutson Blount (http://www.shutsonblount.com/)

Read by Matt Weller

Originally appeared at The Fifth Dimension

---

“It’s quiet outside,” Nohaile said, trying to find a comfortable way to sit in his armor suit. “Are you sure it’s started?”

“It’ll get plenty loud,” said the girl. She was armored only in a ratty sweatshirt and a patched bib coverall. She’d entered the bunker
with a vest and some sensible-looking boots, but promptly removed them. Her bare feet made her look about twelve years old. “For right
now,” she continued after some rapid two-thumb typing on her hand console, “we got time to kill.”

“Miz Bamboo, do you think we can win?” Nohaile had a matching helmet to go with his armor. He felt foolish either leaving it off or putting it on, so it worried in his hands.

The girl laughed a little. It didn’t reach her eyes. “There’s no ‘miz.’ Bamboo is my handle, not my name.”

“I’m sorry.”

“No worries. And yeah, we can win. The other guy hired cheap.”

Bamboo kept looking at the display on her console, checking through her seemingly-infinite pockets and producing unidentifiable items to
inspect and disappear again. Everything she carried seemed dirty but functional.

Nohaile looked down at his shiny armor suit and was ashamed.

“So, when do I get the story?” Bamboo asked.


(http://escapepod.org/wp-images/podcast-mini4.gif) Listen to this week’s Escape Pod! (http://traffic.libsyn.com/escapepod/EP342_CertusPerBellum.mp3)
Title: Re: EP342: Certus Per Bellum
Post by: InfiniteMonkey on April 30, 2012, 02:18:08 AM
Apparently I've caught up on my podcasts to the point where I'm first....

I liked the weird extension of legal combat, though given how difficult appeals would be, I'm not sure lawyers would agree to this system. And the tech was believable and fun (well, for carnage, not for cuddliness). And I found the characters believable. And I liked the mix of them.

My one quibble is that in an otherwise good narrative, Mitt went for a little more girly than I think Bamboo would have sounded. I guess he was probably self-conscious about voicing an Asian-American young woman, but she came across as tougher than he sounded.
Title: Re: EP342: Certus Per Bellum
Post by: Dem on April 30, 2012, 12:26:19 PM
I had Bamboo as some sort of anime, so probably deceptively cutesie and girlie. Maybe that's what Matt saw too, although I'll be worried if he sneaks a look at my imaginings again - just knock, pal, that's all I ask! The story, I thought, got a bit lost in the dense descriptions of bombs and battle buses we needed to let us know where we were. It's a perennial problem for SF because there's no real shorthand for something people have never seen, so you have to draw it for them. Over a longer piece, the descriptions can be dripped in slowly but in a piece of this length, it feels to me that it trips up the action and has it falling on its face, while at the same time, leaving little room for the characters to become anything much. And so I ended up with a motorcycle courier and a Japanese cartoon ninja-girl in a playstation junkyard. Can't win 'em all!
Title: Re: EP342: Certus Per Bellum
Post by: Listener on April 30, 2012, 05:35:39 PM
I found the story to have a decent premise, although not necessarily a new one. However, I didn't much care for the telling -- there was a lot of good setup, but the payoff at the end seemed kind of rushed. I wasn't sure whether we were supposed to feel bad for Bamboo for losing her robots, or Wendell for realizing that, yeah, someone's really going to die here, or the world itself for distilling what was basically patent trolling* down to "yeah, go on, kill each other." Unfortunately, I just didn't care enough about any of them.

Also, while the narration was fine, I felt there were some odd pauses and spaces in the text that threw me off a bit.

* I know it wasn't patent trolling. I just wanted to use that term in conversation.
Title: Re: EP342: Certus Per Bellum
Post by: eytanz on April 30, 2012, 06:06:41 PM
I more or less agree with Listener - the concepts of the story were far more interesting than the actual telling thereof. There was a lot about this story that just didn't manage to grab me - whether it's Nohaile's haplessness (his main character trait being "gets involved in situations he doesn't understand"), or Bamboo's plot-driven partial ignorance (she seems to have enough knowledge to explain everything in hindsight but not to actually anticipate anything, or for example check who her opponent's hostage is, etc.) - or the fact that her company didn't seem to have ever thought about how to convey information to people on the field if they need it, or the fact that the ending is "It may be hard to fight back from our position! Oh wait, my very first action resolved it all perfectly", I just felt underwhelmed.
Title: Re: EP342: Certus Per Bellum
Post by: childoftyranny on April 30, 2012, 11:12:46 PM
In all fairness Bamboo wasn't as much a warrior-lawyer as a warrior-arbitrator, as it is a civil alternative; civil here meaning, not criminal, as opposed to civilized.

It feels like the future is the past and we've not learned from mistakes with this story as it is might is right, or trial by firepower, just with fancier weapons. I'd suggest that few lawyers would prefer this system, I know it was said in jest but why not joust a jest? A reliance on strength of body is quite different from a reliance on strength of mind and logic in a pure sense. Assuredly it takes cleverness to win a battle but I think the gist gets across. As well as it takes a different set of rules and skills, hence my original suggestion Bamboo would not be a lawyer per se.

My other main thought on this story is that the weapon Bamboo uses to win the battle sounds very similar to a weapon the United States currently possess, know as the BLU-108 http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/blu-108.htm (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/blu-108.htm) It sounds like hers are smaller and with more sophisticated sensors but this story sounded very near-future to me since we have most of the technology in hand to make all the mentioned weapons, though the robot AIs sounded a bit more sophisticated than we have.

Overall I enjoyed the story, it was pretty cut and dry, I felt that Bamboo didn't really care, taking on the role of the aloof mercenary serving her naive employer, at best, and her self-lying employer at much worse. He protested...just a little, but when he won, well it was time to go! I fully agree neither was particular likable or identifiable, but I think the way the story was action oriented can allow you to skip over them for this piece.
Title: Re: EP342: Certus Per Bellum
Post by: Balu on May 02, 2012, 12:21:19 AM
Downloaded it, listened to it, loved it.

On the believability front, other commentators can't see lawyers buying into this, but I can. Those boys are smart. If the voting mob don't like paying $300 a letter let's give them this alternative instead. That way they've got no right to bitch because they have a choice.

Same principle that keeps a two party state trundling along.
Title: Re: EP342: Certus Per Bellum
Post by: Balu on May 02, 2012, 12:22:32 AM
(http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrufh17cAt1qd5idfo1_500.jpg)

Go on. You know it  makes sense.
Title: Re: EP342: Certus Per Bellum
Post by: ElectricPaladin on May 02, 2012, 12:36:14 AM
I liked this story quite a lot. It reminded me of my newest miniatures wargame: Infinity!

That said, this was an incredibly charming little tale that did a good job of extrapolating on Reality TV, America's litigious culture, and the despicable ways that our "elite" behaves. All in all, I thought it was wonderful.

Also, violent. Boom.
Title: Re: EP342: Certus Per Bellum
Post by: schizoTypal on May 02, 2012, 04:00:49 AM
I also saw a strong commentary on the state of reality TV... in general, this seemed more to be a commentary on current societal norms, rather than delving very far into the land of fiction to begin with. Reality TV was a small portion of it. Frivolous lawsuits, ridiculous patent and copyright laws, the horrible imbalance between individuals and corporate entities, and the general morally corrupt nature of the world we live in.

That said, it managed not to feel preachy while listening, and painted a very interesting almost video-game-esque method of working through one's beefs.

All in all, it kept me happy from the start to the finish. I can't properly articulate WHY I loved it, but I did.
Title: Re: EP342: Certus Per Bellum
Post by: InfiniteMonkey on May 02, 2012, 03:38:33 PM

On the believability front, other commentators can't see lawyers buying into this, but I can. Those boys are smart. If the voting mob don't like paying $300 a letter let's give them this alternative instead. That way they've got no right to bitch because they have a choice.


The problem with the system is that you can't keep your clients coming back for an appeal at $300 a letter if they're dead. I just don't see a lot of lawyers buying into a system that kills off their client-base.

IMO the system is (intentionally) taking to absurd heights the notion that you can scare someone into dropping a suit. Now it's done with deep pockets, here it's done with weapons.
Title: Re: EP342: Certus Per Bellum
Post by: ElectricPaladin on May 02, 2012, 03:44:48 PM
The problem with the system is that you can't keep your clients coming back for an appeal at $300 a letter if they're dead. I just don't see a lot of lawyers buying into a system that kills off their client-base.

IMO the system is (intentionally) taking to absurd heights the notion that you can scare someone into dropping a suit. Now it's done with deep pockets, here it's done with weapons.

Bingo - this story wasn't trying to be realistic. It was trying to explicate a problem by taking it to the (il)logical conclusion.
Title: Re: EP342: Certus Per Bellum
Post by: childoftyranny on May 02, 2012, 05:39:05 PM
On the believability front, other commentators can't see lawyers buying into this, but I can. Those boys are smart. If the voting mob don't like paying $300 a letter let's give them this alternative instead. That way they've got no right to bitch because they have a choice.

I agree with previous responses as well as pointing out that this suggests that they aren't paying for the weapons as well as the weapons not being pricey either, and then possible repair costs to the battle fields, I have a the sense that is was hardly a cheaper endeavor simply a different kind.
Title: Re: EP342: Certus Per Bellum
Post by: schizoTypal on May 03, 2012, 02:43:22 AM
On the believability front, other commentators can't see lawyers buying into this, but I can. Those boys are smart. If the voting mob don't like paying $300 a letter let's give them this alternative instead. That way they've got no right to bitch because they have a choice.

I agree with previous responses as well as pointing out that this suggests that they aren't paying for the weapons as well as the weapons not being pricey either, and then possible repair costs to the battle fields, I have a the sense that is was hardly a cheaper endeavor simply a different kind.

Oh I don't know about that. Bamboo was discussing how certain things can be written off as various types of expenses, so it seems to me that they ARE hugely expensive, and it's just that the Champion/Lawyer absorbs the costs and writes them off as business expenses.
Title: Re: EP342: Certus Per Bellum
Post by: Cutter McKay on May 03, 2012, 09:04:50 PM
This story rated a high "Meh" on the mediocre scale for me. There wasn't anything intrinsically wrong with the story, per se, but there wasn't really anything right with it either. The characters were flat--I agree with eytanz's summaries--and thereby boring to me. All Nohaile did for the duration of the story was whine about how he didn't want to be there. He knew what he was getting into. Man up. Bamboo was fun, but not interesting.

The story was very straight forward, no real try/fail cycles--which is usually fine in a short story as there isn't enough time to spend on more than one--but this story was: "Let's go. Crap they blew everything up. Ha! We blew them up back. The end." I found the ending fairly anticlimactic. I was waiting for the twist or additional action or something to happen when they found the opposing bunker full of dead bodies, but instead it was just that: a bunker full of dead bodies. Game over. They talked so much about how the opponent's wife was on the other end of the field that the fact that she was dead was kind of a "duh" moment.

I think it might have been more interesting/shocking/powerful if the reveal that it wasn't the Niklaus Sintov, but instead his wife, didn't come until the very end, when they find her dead body. Then Nohaile could have wallowed in his own guilt over having caused the death of an innocent women to settle a financial dispute.

In all, I was intrigued by the idea of settling disputes the new old fashioned way, a fist fight to the death, but agree that it's unrealistic at best.

Perhaps I'm just missing the deeper meaning here, but this one didn't get me, nor I it.
Title: Re: EP342: Certus Per Bellum
Post by: SF.Fangirl on May 04, 2012, 04:55:53 AM
I enjoyed half of this story or possibly about 66%.  Sure the plot was silly (but at least it had one) to the extreme, but I enjoyed it the part of the story that wasn't military tech infodump.  It was obvious that the new bride was a sacrificial lamb, but that's actually fine because Bamboo, Nohelo, and I were all tricked into believing that it was because the other guy was a cowardly creep and not that he planned to blow up his bunker in some questionably legal moves.  For the length, the story had just enough plot and character development to be enjoyable.

However the infodumps were incorporated very poorly into the character's story and had a jarring tone.  Basically when it came time for an explanation, the characters disappeared from the story for a several paragraphs of dry "facts" were read, and then then back to our story.  My attention definitely drifted during the boring infodumps.

Overall though, I enjoyed this as a silly little bit of fun.
Title: Re: EP342: Certus Per Bellum
Post by: aceofwands on May 04, 2012, 10:30:08 AM
I should have made the effort earlier, it seems.

I enjoyed this story, both in the writing and telling, more than many or several other recent podcasts.

I should say, I normally have a definite and physical adverse reaction to the girls-who-love-big-ordnance trope.  I'm not a big anime fan - who'd guess? - but in fact dates back to old Doctor Who companion Ace.  Not big.  Not clever.

... and breathe.

But with this story, as sunlight breaking through cloud, opened up a wormhole from dull middle-age to the 15 year old me, who lapped it up with an evil grin. Simple, efficient, entertaining.

BOOM! Heh-heh.
Title: Re: EP342: Certus Per Bellum
Post by: schizoTypal on May 05, 2012, 03:24:25 AM
@SF.Fangirl - Sacrificial lamb, eh? Even after finding out what the plan was, I still viewed the guy as a total creep. If you're going to pull that move, and have it be in any way respectful, wouldn't you sacrifice yourself instead of your new wife who you married specifically to off?
Title: Re: EP342: Certus Per Bellum
Post by: CryptoMe on May 05, 2012, 06:47:47 AM
Add me to the camp that found this new variant of "trial by combat" interesting, but the story itself lacking.
Title: Re: EP342: Certus Per Bellum
Post by: Cannibal713 on May 05, 2012, 03:27:08 PM
I enjoyed Certus Per Bellum for the most part. Perhaps the storyline was a bit lacking, but I liked the concept. It sure would make Court TV more interesting.
Title: Re: EP342: Certus Per Bellum
Post by: Cattfish on May 06, 2012, 06:36:19 PM
I suppose I should be happy that there was finally an episode where a more traditional story format was used...

but this one was awfully silly, plot-wise.

The main character being all wishy-washy at the end kind of made a good point about maybe taking revenge a bit too far
Title: Re: EP342: Certus Per Bellum
Post by: SF.Fangirl on May 06, 2012, 08:38:49 PM
@SF.Fangirl - Sacrificial lamb, eh? Even after finding out what the plan was, I still viewed the guy as a total creep. If you're going to pull that move, and have it be in any way respectful, wouldn't you sacrifice yourself instead of your new wife who you married specifically to off?

You misunderstand.  Plot-wise it was obvious that the new wife was a sacraficial lamb (thereby letting us know the husband was a complete creep), but plot-wise I was not upset because I thought she was there just in case he didn't win not because part of his plan (and the company's plan) included blowing up his own bunker.  I was still surprised when that happened.
Title: Re: EP342: Certus Per Bellum
Post by: schizoTypal on May 06, 2012, 08:49:46 PM
@SF.Fangirl - Sacrificial lamb, eh? Even after finding out what the plan was, I still viewed the guy as a total creep. If you're going to pull that move, and have it be in any way respectful, wouldn't you sacrifice yourself instead of your new wife who you married specifically to off?

You misunderstand.  Plot-wise it was obvious that the new wife was a sacraficial lamb (thereby letting us know the husband was a complete creep), but plot-wise I was not upset because I thought she was there just in case he didn't win not because part of his plan (and the company's plan) included blowing up his own bunker.  I was still surprised when that happened.

Makes me wonder, on a sexist sort of note ... think it has anything to do with me being male that I expected the absolute worst of him in the first place, and immediately felt sympathy for her? Rationally, I should have been surprised when it happened, and should have had a "What an idiot," feeling toward her.
Title: Re: EP342: Certus Per Bellum
Post by: Devoted135 on May 07, 2012, 04:22:05 PM
This story would have been stronger if it had decided to go after only one "issue" and really explore it rather than throwing in lots of ideas and seeing what stuck. Between our overly litigious society, the absurdity of our 100 year old patent laws, and the sad state of "reality" tv nowadays, (not to mention the pacifist bone thrown in right at the end) there was a lot of commentary and I don't think the story was strong enough to stand up under it. That said, I did feel sorry for Nohaile, it didn't seem like he at all knew what he had gotten himself into.
Title: Re: EP342: Certus Per Bellum
Post by: Balu on May 11, 2012, 11:25:38 PM
I think this would have been better if the world building had been quickly squared away so that the author could have concentrated on the carnage.

Reasons for future societies reintroducing trial by combat always seem a bit laboured. Why not just admit it happens 'coz its cool, and jump right into the blood and oil? That's what everybody is there for.

Anyway, I enjoyed it all the same.
Title: Re: EP342: Certus Per Bellum
Post by: Unblinking on May 22, 2012, 04:29:58 PM
Makes me wonder, on a sexist sort of note ... think it has anything to do with me being male that I expected the absolute worst of him in the first place, and immediately felt sympathy for her? Rationally, I should have been surprised when it happened, and should have had a "What an idiot," feeling toward her.

A possible third interpretation:  The man offered her a deal, some kind of deal that would make dying a violent death seem preferable to living.  Such as:  her family is starving, and she has no way to feed them.  If she dies for him, he has signed a contract which will ensure that her children will be fed and cared for until they are adults.  So in that scenario she is neither a sacrificial lamb nor a naive idiot.  All we can do is speculate since we never really get to hear her story.


This story had some very interesting elements.  First and foremost, it combined a litigious legal system that reminds me of modern US culture, but with court battles resolved by old-fashioned duels but with newfangled war tech.  I've always found the idea of "justice by duel" to be a particularly ridiculous social system.  It equates physical skill at fighting with rightness, which doesn't really make any sense.  It's a terribly stupid system, both then and now.

But NOTHING HAPPENED onscreen.  They anticipated the battle.  Then the bunkers get blowed up, offscreen.  Then the fighters come for them, offscreen.  Then Bamboo launched a counterstrike that killed their enemies, offscreen.  The end.  WTF?  Can I have some of my action onscreen please?  Can my protagonist do something?  Can our supposed action hero Bamboo do something besides twiddle her Palm Pilot?  I can see a similar scene myself at a coffee shop--one person bitching about legal trouble while the other person played Angry Birds on her phone.  (Okay, so the Angry Birds won the legal battle, so it's a bit different in the result, but as far as the action happening right now it's pretty similar)
Title: Re: EP342: Certus Per Bellum
Post by: LaShawn on May 24, 2012, 07:08:14 PM
Agreeing with what everyone said so far. While I loved Bamboo (yeah! Kickass girl lawyer. Someone make an anime of that PLEASE), the story left me unsatisfied. I thought it was more of a 'let's hash out our differences with ROBOTS BATTLING EACH OTHER', which I was all for. But when it turned out that, no, they really are trying to kill each other, the story got boring.
Title: Re: EP342: Certus Per Bellum
Post by: Myrealana on June 05, 2012, 02:30:18 PM
But NOTHING HAPPENED onscreen.  They anticipated the battle.  Then the bunkers get blowed up, offscreen.  Then the fighters come for them, offscreen.  Then Bamboo launched a counterstrike that killed their enemies, offscreen.  The end.  WTF?  Can I have some of my action onscreen please?  Can my protagonist do something?  Can our supposed action hero Bamboo do something besides twiddle her Palm Pilot?  I can see a similar scene myself at a coffee shop--one person bitching about legal trouble while the other person played Angry Birds on her phone.  (Okay, so the Angry Birds won the legal battle, so it's a bit different in the result, but as far as the action happening right now it's pretty similar)
Agreed. I found the concept interesting, but I thought that the characters were too distant from the action of the story. True, they were in danger, but mostly, it was Bamboo tapping on her phone, and so the conflct felt distant and unimportant.
Title: Re: EP342: Certus Per Bellum
Post by: hardware on July 30, 2012, 06:27:07 AM
I enjoyed this as a piece of Vorhoevenesque satire of certain trends in current society, which sort of assumes the focus on concepts rather than characters or great plot. It wasn't great literature, but I was certainly not bored either.
Title: Re: EP342: Certus Per Bellum
Post by: Fenrix on December 05, 2012, 07:11:35 PM
Put me in the group with liking the concept more than the execution.

I was thinking the "wife" was some kind of badass assassin plant that would come take advantage of the distraction of the street gang bots. Too bad that didn't pay off. I didn't really understand why The Man utilized a strategy of a quasi-legal one-trick pony instead of throwing more resources and money into the battle. It felt artificially like a tabletop wargame where The Man spent 950 of his 1000 squad build points on the big bombs and only had 50 left over for everything else.

Also, I think the scene with Bamboo crying when her bunker is blown up was rather lame. Hasn't she been under fire before? We need a little more Vasquez and a little less Hudson.