Escape Artists

Escape Pod => Episode Comments => Topic started by: Russell Nash on April 05, 2007, 01:22:07 PM

Title: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Russell Nash on April 05, 2007, 01:22:07 PM
EP100: Nightfall (http://www.escapepod.org/2007/04/05/ep100-nightfall/)

By Isaac Asimov (http://www.asimovonline.com/).
Read by Stephen Eley.
First appeared in Astounding Science Fiction (http://www.analogsf.com), September 1941.

“Of the six suns, only Beta is left in the sky. Do you see it?”

The question was rather unnecessary. Beta was almost at zenith, its ruddy light flooding the landscape to an unusual orange as the brilliant rays of setting Gamma died. Beta was at aphelion. It was small; smaller than Theremon had ever seen it before, and for the moment it was undisputed ruler of Lagash’s sky.

Lagash’s own sun, Alpha, the one about which it revolved, was at the antipodes, as were the two distant companion pairs. The red dwarf Beta — Alpha’s immediate companion — was alone, grimly alone.

Aton’s upturned face flushed redly in the sunlight. “In just under four hours,” he said, “civilization, as we know it, comes to an end. It will do so because, as you see, Beta is the only sun in the sky.” He smiled grimly. “Print that! There’ll be no one to read it.”


Rated G. Contains some violence and apocalyptic themes.


(http://escapepod.org/wp-images/podcast-mini4.gif)
Listen to this week’s Escape Pod! (http://www.escapepod.org/media//EP100_Nightfall.mp3)
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: jrderego on April 05, 2007, 01:31:30 PM
Beautiful presentation of a real golden age treat to celebrate 100! Great-great-great ep this week!

Huzzah and congratulations. Three cheers for Escape Pod!

Hip hip HOORAY!
Hip hip HOORAY!
Hip hip HOORAY!
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: beardiebloke on April 05, 2007, 02:41:35 PM
I'm an Asimov & EP fan so this was bound to push the right buttons.  Awesome.  It made my day.  Looking forward to EP128, 200, 256,....1000
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Bdoomed on April 05, 2007, 05:31:19 PM
I'm having trouble downloading the episode... im listening right now on the website but its not gettin into my iTunes, nor does the download link work for me...
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: .Morph. on April 05, 2007, 06:19:22 PM
WOWOWOWOWOW!
I have this story in print format and its one of my most read.
When i clicked onto escapepod and saw it it was a dream come true.
I was wondering when you were gonna run an asimov piece.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Josh on April 06, 2007, 12:54:20 PM
I think this is probably my favorite piece run yet! It really hit the Science-To-Fiction-Ration that changes "fiction that has some laser guns in it" to real Science fiction.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Zathras on April 06, 2007, 03:26:04 PM
 :D
Wow, this episode was great!  Great story and very well read by Steve!  Can't say enough how much I liked it.  Just fantastic! 

I thought the heartfelt thanks from Steve preceding the story was neat and nicely expressed.   But I think 99% of the credit should go to the creator.  If you build something great, success and popularity will usually follow.   This is a good example of that.   Looking forward to the next 100 episodes.   
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Swamp on April 06, 2007, 03:51:02 PM
Very, very good episode!  Fantastic reading by Steve.  The author of the story was a bit obscure though.;)   Nightfall truly is the definition of classic science fiction.  As I stated on another post, I caught the X-Minus One presentation of Nightfall when it ran on the Spaceship Radio podcast, and thought it was wonderful.  However, the brilliant reading of the actual text in this episode tops it for sure.  Steve has just the right alliteration (I know that's not the right word) to get past some of the stilted dialog.  A classic reading of a classic favorite!
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Thaurismunths on April 06, 2007, 04:04:33 PM
Aaw man!
EP100 And I forgot my headphones at home!
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Startrekwiki on April 07, 2007, 03:39:41 AM
Finally! A story be the master! Read, by the master! Great! Long awaited! [If I no longer punctuate my sentences with exclamations, it' because I'm so exited I might break the ! key]

Good job, Mr. Eley!
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Bdoomed on April 07, 2007, 05:34:22 AM
i had not read this story nor heard it till now, but i must say, it is a VERY good story, and VERY well read!
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Oblio on April 07, 2007, 08:03:23 AM
In these days of "Hollywood" writings where stories don't get a chance if they are not action packed,  and instead asks the reader/listener to think a bit, it is refreshing to hear Nightfall.  I wonder how it would have done if Asimov were selling it today as an unknown writer.

Great Story from the master!
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Simon on April 07, 2007, 11:20:45 AM
Well... Mr Eley bagged Nightfall.

I am enough of a Golden Age fan to think its not even worth enthusing about this story, its status is unassailable.  Impressed you managed to get your hands on it.

Well done Steve...  Well done... 

On making it to 100 episodes:

I think its a notable feature of the tone of EP that pretty much every listener I have spoken to about it considers Mr Eley in some way a friend.  I would be amazed if he ever has to buy his own beer in a foreign city.  As a reader who has been honoured with an email, I'd like to say you are welcome to a pint if you ever find yourself in London.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: slic on April 07, 2007, 02:01:08 PM
Episode Comments:
Clearly a great story.  I actually read it first as the novel (short story is better in my opinion) co-written with Robert Silverberg.  The preface is something that had a significant impact on how I write (when I get around to it :)) - to paraphrase:

The story is on an alien planet, and they will have vehicular transport, and I will call them "cars" instead of "gobats" - not because the aliens call them cars, but because for the purpose of this story "cars" is a good enough descriptor and to name them "gobats" would needlessly confuse the reader.

I've always considered that when "inventing" a civilization, and even naming characters.  It is one of the few annoyances of series such as The Maritian Chronicles (John Carter) by Edgar Rice Burroughs (his martian distances were in radians and the like, and I never could quite get how far away stuff was), and the Lord of the Rings - Sauron and Saruman - man, I can't tell you how many times I would get the white wizard and the giant eyeball mixed up - I've never read through any of the books in the series - snoozefest (sorry) and that didn't help.  Sword of Shannara may be a blatant rip-off but I enjoyed that book.

EscapePod Comments:
Your thanks, Mr. Eley, are reciprocated ten-fold.  The effort and sacrifice you have put into these ventures is clear each week.  As a result EscapePod is now a standard against which others are measured.  How influential/well-known has EscapePod become - well, I wanted to confirm the co-autor for Nightfall, and when I went to Wikipedia, your reading of the story has already been sited:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightfall_(Isaac_Asimov) "Nightfall - Read by Stephen Eley on the 100th episode of Escape Pod."

And Simon put it well - each of us considers you a friend, though we've never met.  You are one of the very few "celebrities" I've ever thought to get to know better.
 
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Thaurismunths on April 07, 2007, 05:00:34 PM
Wow.
I think if I'd read this story today I'd have been impressed, but would have said it wasn't too original or very imaginative. That is only because so much of what I've read and heard in my life has been influenced by Mr. Asimov's writings.

To all of slush readers, editors, and technical folk the EP Staff for bringing us these stories each week, and to Mr. Eley's wife and son who put up with Steve's seemingly tireless dedication to the worlds of fiction and podcasting, Thank You!
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: jeffwik on April 07, 2007, 07:57:58 PM
I really enjoyed this episode, but my comment is tangential -- were the intro and outro slowed down slightly?  The rhythm of the speech seemed a little different than usual.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: SFEley on April 07, 2007, 10:46:58 PM
I really enjoyed this episode, but my comment is tangential -- were the intro and outro slowed down slightly?  The rhythm of the speech seemed a little different than usual.

There were no audio effects.  If I spoke differently, it's because I was in a slightly different mood than I usually am when recording these intros.  (Because of what this episode meant to me, and also because I was finishing up this episode at about 4 AM last Saturday, about two hours before leaving for a cruise.)  >8->

As for considering me a friend: thanks, everyone.  That means a lot to me, and it's fully reciprocal.  I'll take you up on that pint offer, Simon -- but only if I get to buy the second round.  >8->

Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Kronikarz on April 09, 2007, 10:52:51 PM
Wow. Just.... wow. I mean, the... wow. It's just.... wow. Can't... wow.

Best EP episode. Ever. Wow.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: mt house on April 10, 2007, 02:59:34 AM
I am not worthy! Not only a mind tinglingly delicious story, but five minutes of totally kick it Japanese surf punk! And Steve! I love this podcast!
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Jim on April 10, 2007, 12:42:27 PM
What truly humbles me in the face of such brilliance is the fact that Asimov wrote Nightfall when he was 21 years old.

At an age when most youngsters are (at least today) fixated on finally being of legal age to drink, Asimov was making science fiction history.

Other than that, I can't think of anything to say about it that hasn't already been said sometime in the last 65 years.

What a terrific way to cap off the first 100 episodes, paying homage to a stroke of genius by a genuine master.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Dr Frankenshroom on April 10, 2007, 03:58:50 PM
Nightfall should be renamed Planet of the Morons

A civilisation that destroy's itself because of  a total solar eclipse. LOL
These people are so incredibly dense.
It takes them centuies to come up   with law of gravitation LOL

Though if Asimov was using this story to point out our flaws in scientific theory, then he succeeded
admirably.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: ClintMemo on April 10, 2007, 04:11:28 PM
Nightfall should be renamed Planet of the Morons

A civilisation that destroy's itself because of  a total solar eclipse. LOL
not when you consider that they've never experienced dark before.
Imagine what would happen on earth if suddenly everyone went deaf.

These people are so incredibly dense.
It takes them centuies to come up   with law of gravitation LOL

It took us at least a few thousand.

Though if Asimov was using this story to point out our flaws in scientific theory, then he succeeded
admirably.


how so?

The astronomer predicts what will happen to the sun - and he turns out to be right.
The psychologist predicts what will happen when it gets dark - and he turns out to be right.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Josh on April 10, 2007, 04:55:16 PM

These people are so incredibly dense.
It takes them centuies to come up   with law of gravitation LOL


Before calling a civilization "dense" for doing things four times faster than we did, you might want to consider running a spell check.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Thaurismunths on April 10, 2007, 05:05:08 PM
Nightfall should be renamed Planet of the Morons

A civilisation that destroy's itself because of  a total solar eclipse. LOL
These people are so incredibly dense.
It takes them centuies to come up   with law of gravitation LOL

Though if Asimov was using this story to point out our flaws in scientific theory, then he succeeded
admirably.

I'm going to echo Clint on this Frank.

We were toying with "gravity" back in the fourth century BCE, civilization having been started somewhere back about 3500 BCE, and Einstein didn't pin it down 'til 1915. That's more than two millennia! Perhaps you had mistaken century (hundred years) for millennia (thousand years)?

Likewise, I found it a little incredulous that they would destroy a whole world just because it went black, but think Asimov wasn't saying it was the darkness that bothered them: it was the stars. The sudden, crushing realization of their own insignificance in the vastness of the cosmoses. There's also the self-fulfilling profiles and religious furvor stirred up by the religious doomsayers. For 2050 years their people have all heard the stories that the world will go dark, the stars will come out, and men will go stark-raving mad... so that's exactly what happens.

I think, if anything, this story would be a tongue-in-cheek look at man's pride. I'm not sure where scientific principal would fit in.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Thaurismunths on April 10, 2007, 05:12:00 PM

These people are so incredibly dense.
It takes them centuies to come up   with law of gravitation LOL


Before calling a civilization "dense" for doing things four times faster than we did, you might want to consider running a spell check.

Easy Josh. That's a rather personal attack.
Though the forum encourages correct English, and appreciates good spelling, there's no call for ridiculing someone else for making a typo.
And although I think Frank's post might be a little heavy handed, even Asimov's work is not beyond ridicule and debate.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: slic on April 10, 2007, 05:14:10 PM
Before calling a civilization "dense" for doing things four times faster than we did, you might want to consider running a spell check.
Careful now, the poster is giving an opinion, and it's about a fictional civilization.
Quote from: Thaurismunths
...it was the stars. The sudden, crushing realization of their own insignificance in the vastness of the cosmoses[sic].
I agree.  And that is why the quote by Emerson starts the story.

I also understood this story to be about mankind's folly - happily at the centre of their universe, proud of their many accomplishment - and then stupified when they realize their true insignificance.

Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: SFEley on April 10, 2007, 05:41:18 PM
And although I think Frank's post might be a little heavy handed, even Asimov's work is not beyond ridicule and debate.

Well said.  I would add only this:

There are no invalid opinions on a story.  But I would regret it if the rest of the commentary thread on "Nightfall" becomes entirely about what Dr Frankenshroom said, rather than more listeners' experiences.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: ClintMemo on April 10, 2007, 05:59:40 PM
The only problem I had with the story was trying to visualize how the whole planet could go dark all at once.  There was an eclipse happening where the characters were, but what was happening on the other side of the planet?  Were all the other suns over there?  Was it night time?  Was it all water (so nobody lived there?)   The problem didn't occur to me until long after I finished listening to it. (I confess I've never read it - I'm so ashamed :( )

That point aside, once you accept the premise (which is no different than accepting that people can travel to other planets, build human-form robots or travel backward or forward in time) then the rest of the story made perfect sense. 

I also thought it was clever that he didn't exactly pin down the level of technology the people had. I don't remember hearing anything about cars or mass transit or electricity, though it was mentioned that they had seemingly crude cameras and telescopes, and one of the characters was a newspaper reporter.  The story could easily have been set in early Renaissance times.  Now, set the story in 16th century Europe and make the astronomer Isaac Newton (I think it was his law of gravity that is in the story).  Imagine that it has never been night time. Imagine that for centuries, the church has been teaching that one day the sun will disappear, the sky will go dark, the stars will come out and we will all go mad.  Then one day, the sun gets dark and all the stars come out.  Pandemonium!!

There are several ideas in this story we see in later works and not just by Asimov.  The idea that the psychologist could predict what the people would do is a precursor to Hari Seldon's Psychohistory from the Foundation series.  Also, the idea that knowledge can get wrapped up into religion is also explored further in the Foundation series as well as much later in Neil Stephenson's  Snowcrash   I'm sure someone more well-read than me can point out several more examples.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: scottjanssens on April 10, 2007, 06:35:38 PM
The only problem I had with the story was trying to visualize how the whole planet could go dark all at once.  There was an eclipse happening where the characters were, but what was happening on the other side of the planet?  Were all the other suns over there?  Was it night time?  Was it all water (so nobody lived there?)   The problem didn't occur to me until long after I finished listening to it. (I confess I've never read it - I'm so ashamed :( )

Asimov covers this but you have to pay close attention.  Asimov points out that Beta is at aphelion, meaning the planet is at it's farthest point from Beta in it's orbit and therefore at it's smallest size.  The relative size of the moon that eclipses beta is so much larger than the relative size of beta that totality lasts for many hours (I'd have to go back to see how many).  Now imagine a solar eclipse where the moon appears so much larger than the sun that not even the corona would be visible.  It would be true night over the entire hemisphere, and not like a total solar eclipse on Earth where even in the small path of totality it's not completely dark.  Totality lasts long enough that as the planet rotates enough of the surface gets enough darkness to drive the people to madness.  The story establishes that 15 minutes is enough to really start messing with these people.  And that's when they knew the darkness would come to an end.  What some posters (here and in the comments) seem to miss is that it's one thing to draw the curtains or go into a cave, when you know you can get the light back, and it's something completely different when the light goes away on it's own and you don't know if it will come back.  So you're right in that the other side of the planet has light but by the time "dawn" comes, the damage has been done.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Heradel on April 10, 2007, 07:05:45 PM
This was the first time I've read/heard this story (as I've stated elsewhere, young'un is me[though I am working my way through the Foundation books]), so, er, wow. It took me a little while into the story to read the info for the file and realize how long ago it was written, and to realize how different the level of technology was between now and then. Before I realized the age of the story I was wondering why they hadn't seen other point sources of X-rays or radio waves in sky surveys, or had at least discovered LED's when they were coming up with integrated circuits.

Great story, great episode, great 100. (Incidentally, it might be nice to run Charge of the Light Brigade for Episode 600 as a response to the critics [who always remind me of manunkind (http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/57.html)].)
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: SFEley on April 10, 2007, 07:08:36 PM
Asimov covers this but you have to pay close attention.  Asimov points out that Beta is at aphelion, meaning the planet is at it's farthest point from Beta in it's orbit and therefore at it's smallest size.  The relative size of the moon that eclipses beta is so much larger than the relative size of beta that totality lasts for many hours (I'd have to go back to see how many).

The story said "just over half a day."  So yes, every point on the planet would have at least some period of darkness.  I read this story extremely carefully in preparation for narrating it, and I only spotted one genuine logical gaffe: that Beta reaches "zenith" early in the story and apparently stays there for several hours.  That's just an aside, though, and doesn't really matter to the plot.  You could just say that Asimov was being very approximate in what he called a zenith.  >8->

The rest of the story is astronomically implausible but not impossible.  It seems unlikely that all of the suns would maintain a conjunction for such a long period of time, but we don't know the relationship of any stars to the planet except for Alpha.  (It's clear the planet is closer to Alpha than Beta is, or Beta would be a "morning" and "evening" star like Venus.)  Postulating that such a planet, with such eccentric gravitational and heat forces, would be stable and able to support life is a serious stretch -- but again, there are probably configurations where it could happen, and Asimov even flips a joke at this objection by having one of the scientists imagine an Earthlike scenario and conclude, "Of course, life couldn't possibly exist there."

The moon is the biggest stretch.  A moon of greater apparent diameter than ours, "made of bluish rock" of such a precise and uniform shade that it would be totally invisible in the atmosphere, is very hard to believe.  And one has to wonder how such a large moon would never eclipse any other suns.  It'd certainly have a huge effect on tides, though if the scientists of the world never correlated the tides to gravity they might not infer the moon's existence that way.  (And the moon itself would probably wreck any chances to note patterns between the tides and all the suns.)  

All that said, though...

...All that said, I don't think any of it matters.  This story is a thought experiment.  It really doesn't matter how likely any of this is; in a sufficiently large universe, even the most contrived astronomical configuration could happen somewhere.  What Asimov is saying is: "Imagine a world like this.  Imagine this event on that world.  Now imagine the consequences."

From that perspective, this story is science fiction of absolute purity and tremendous power.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Jim on April 10, 2007, 08:21:47 PM
I agree... I'm sure it's been said a million bazillion times, but the story is clearly allegorical, like much of science fiction.

It looks to me like each character is meant to be an analog to a human institution. There's the hard scientist, the soft scientist, the layman, the religious fanatic, and so on.

The way they interact in the face of a looming crisis is the key to the story, I think.

In the end, because of the utterly human failing of fear, religious zealotry wins out over reason.

And as far as "Planet of the Morons," really, are we that different here on Earth?

Considering that there are countries on Earth where publicly contradicting the established religious dogma is punishable by public torture and death, I don't think we can safely wag our fingers and cluck our tongues at the denizens of Lagash for their foibles.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: slic on April 10, 2007, 11:46:56 PM
I don't consider myself religious in anyway, but had a very similar experience to that of the main characters.  We were living in rural Nova Scotia (think Maine, in the case of the US), on an old farm - kilometres from even the nearest "town" centre.  We had been there about 2-3 months, and I was talking out the trash (the large bin was a good 12 yards from the main house).  I had left the porch light off, just lazy, and the kitchen light was muted through the curtains.  It was one of the clearest nights I had even seen (or not seen, I suppose ;)).  I lifted the lid, tossed the bags, and looked up to see the stars - they were overwhelming.  It truly felt as if they were bearing down upon me - there were not 100s or 1000s, but an immeasurable amount.  Familiar constellations and clusters were filled with shiny spots, patterns within patterns, almost in a fractal sense.  I just collaped into a seated position and couldn't tear my eyes away - my Dad calling me in because of some TV show or other broke my reverie. 

I can completely understand the overawe the Lagashites(?) felt, and considering they never, ever saw a night sky before, it's no surprise the breakdowns that occured.  And Steve made mention of another excellent point - they had no idea the suns were coming back - sure their rational brain told them the other suns would eventually "return", but enough of us have been scared sh!tless and know that the rational brain isn't always in control.

I don't think the story is just about how fear can rule a mob, but also the idea of being immediately confronted with ones own insignificance.  Here Mr. Asimov using "night", but imagine if a large alien civilization showed up tomorrow.  I don't mean they kidnap some people, or a small scout ship makes First Contact - I mean an armada of a 100 alien races with 1000s of ships, far superior to us in all ways imaginable.  They don't attack, they just sit there - half the human population would have gone nuts inside of a few hours.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Josh on April 10, 2007, 11:58:31 PM
Before calling a civilization "dense" for doing things four times faster than we did, you might want to consider running a spell check.
Careful now, the poster is giving an opinion, and it's about a fictional civilization.


I'm sorry, I have no problem with the criticism of a work, especially good work. What angers me is when someone criticizes something without knowing all the facts, that's all. I think that if Dr Frankenshroom were to have worded it a little differently, I could understand exactly where he was coming from.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: slic on April 11, 2007, 02:48:01 AM
No worries.  I agree that a simple rewording/rephrasing can make a huge difference - just ask Nikita Khrushchev.

My way of handling stuff like this is to remember that everyone reading the boards is pretty smart - if you see a hole in an arguement then show the hole - we all know who posted what.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: jrw on April 11, 2007, 03:51:56 AM
GREAT! number 100    Its been many years since I read "Nightfall" and had forgotten the beauty of the story especally the ending. I think there was a follow up story many years later that really was only a B- compared with the A++ of "Nigthfall"  Thanks for a great read!
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Simon Painter on April 11, 2007, 09:17:06 AM
This has to be the best episode of Escape Pod ever   ;D Twice as long as a normal episode, but I didn't notice in the slightest.

Is there any chance we could start incrementing the episode numbers in hundreds, so we can have a special episode every week?

Many, many thanks,

Simon Painter
Shropshire, UK
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: sirana on April 11, 2007, 11:17:43 AM
First of all, WUHUUUU EP100 !!!!!!!!1111!!!ONE!!!1
Congratulation Steven for making this the single best podcast on the net.
Lets see what EP1000 has to offer ;-)

I liked the story very much (didn't know it before *look ashamed*), but I have my problems with the main premise.
The psychology seems a bit too mechanistic.
IF Darkness THEN Madness is too simplistic for me, even in a civilisation that doesn't know a night.
Just because they don't know night doesn't mean the concept of darkness escapes them. They have caves and they know what happenes when you pull down the curtain. I just have a difficulty to believe that the darkness would drive (nearly) every person mad.

And if isn't the darkness that drives them mad, but the stars, I don't see why that would be the case and I don't feel it is explained sufficiently in the story. Furthermore, while I get that they would light everything on fire if the darkness was the cause of the madness, this doesn't make sense if the stars are really the reason for them going mad.

Also the unfamiliarity with any artificial lightsources isn't really believable to me. They never tried to expore these caves? They don't have cellars, or rooms without windows that have to be lit with other means than sunlight?

And one final nitpick. The sentence: "Not Earth's feeble 36 hundred stars... " does break the scene of an universe that doesn't know anything about Earth or the possibility of its existence and makes it a story that is too directly aimed at a audience that does know of it.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: slic on April 11, 2007, 11:32:44 AM
Quote from: sirana
Furthermore, while I get that they would light everything on fire if the darkness was the cause of the madness, this doesn't make sense if the stars are really the reason for them going mad.
It's because DARKNESS = STARS.  Until the full "darkness" there were no stars (from their POV), so remove the darkness and the stars will go away.

Quote from: sirana
Also the unfamiliarity with any artificial lightsources isn't really believable to me.
I agree for the most part, since most artificial heat sources generate light (wood, candles, gas, etc.). Though, it took nearly 50's after the idea for a light bulb for Edison to perfect it (and that's something clearly useful to many people) whereas spelunking gear (including lighting) for a civilization already scared of the dark was more likely way down the list.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Thaurismunths on April 11, 2007, 12:00:37 PM
Perhaps these are photosynthetic people?
The quip about life not being sustainable on Earth because there isn't nearly enough light suggest that they need a lot of light for survival. That being the case, they wouldn't build structures that had dark spots. It'd be like us filling rooms with water or noxious gases: We could, but they'd be a bit of a hazard, so why bother?
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: SFEley on April 11, 2007, 02:23:59 PM
The quip about life not being sustainable on Earth because there isn't nearly enough light suggest that they need a lot of light for survival. That being the case, they wouldn't build structures that had dark spots. It'd be like us filling rooms with water or noxious gases: We could, but they'd be a bit of a hazard, so why bother?

It's an interesting theory, though I suspect probably not Asimov's intent.  (Subtlety on that order was never his style; he'd have come out and said it.)  >8-> 

I read that line a bit more simply: I think the astronomer was simply saying that, according to his common sense, a planet that was in darkness half the time would be frozen on the dark side and the temperature variations would be extreme.  (I.e., much like we think of Mercury.)  Obviously that doesn't happen on Earth because the atmosphere retains and transfers heat, but their atmospheric science would be quite different from ours and our reality simply wouldn't occur to them.

As for structures with dark rooms, I agree: the sense I get of this culture is that almost every room has a window, just because that's the obvious and natural way for them to build buildings.  (This was true for most of Earth human history as well.)  It's not that they couldn't invent other light sources, but rather, why would they bother?
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Swamp on April 11, 2007, 03:45:15 PM
And one final nitpick. The sentence: "Not Earth's feeble 36 hundred stars... " does break the scene of an universe that doesn't know anything about Earth or the possibility of its existence and makes it a story that is too directly aimed at a audience that does know of it.

I noticed this, too, but this was the first time I caught it.  I guess I had to hear it rather than read it.  But yeah, we have a nice third person narrative going from the newspaperman's POV, and then all of a sudden, Asimov starts talking to us, the audience.  It kind of broke me out of the story a bit, but not enough not to enjoy it.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Djerrid on April 11, 2007, 07:09:01 PM
I've never read this story before and the first thing that popped into my head was Lord Byron's poem "Darkness". Here's an excerpt:

I had a dream, which was not all a dream.
The bright sun was extinguish’d, and the stars
Did wander darkling in the eternal space,
Rayless, and pathless, and the icy earth
Swung blind and blackening in the moonless air;

Morn came and went - and came, and brought no day,
And men forgot their passions in the dread
Of this their desolation; and all hearts
Were chill’d into a selfish prayer for light:
And they did live by watchfires - and the thrones,
The palaces of crowned kings - the huts,
The habitations of all things which dwell,
Were burnt for beacons; cities were consumed,
And men were gathered round their blazing homes
To look once more into each other’s face;

I wonder if it was Asimov's inspiration. You can read the whole thing here: http://englishhistory.net/byron/poems/darkness.html (http://englishhistory.net/byron/poems/darkness.html) I think it would make a great Pseudopod flash piece. Lord Byron wrote it in 1816, the "Year without a Summer" when Mount Tambora's eruption darkened the skies and altered the climate for that summer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Without_a_Summer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Without_a_Summer) 

Oh, and in the intro Steve mentioned the two "Nightfall" movies. I'd say "Pitch Black" was also based on the premise, inserting a little Vin Diesel action to the concept.

And I'd like to add my hearty "Congrats!" to the chorus.  The intros are as interesting and engaging as the stories themselves. Keep up the good work Steve!
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Josh on April 11, 2007, 07:20:17 PM
And one final nitpick. The sentence: "Not Earth's feeble 36 hundred stars... " does break the scene of an universe that doesn't know anything about Earth or the possibility of its existence and makes it a story that is too directly aimed at a audience that does know of it.

I noticed this, too, but this was the first time I caught it.  I guess I had to hear it rather than read it.  But yeah, we have a nice third person narrative going from the newspaperman's POV, and then all of a sudden, Asimov starts talking to us, the audience.  It kind of broke me out of the story a bit, but not enough not to enjoy it.

As did I, I thought it would be kind of hard to explain, though, without this reference.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Alasdair5000 on April 11, 2007, 08:37:24 PM
Happy 100 episodes!

   I've, to my shame, never read Nightfall.  This will change as both versions are in the house somewhere and I'm now on my third listen to this exceptional episode.  It keeps getting better.  It's just a beautifully constructed, intricate, moving and horrifying piece of fiction.  I love it.

Random thoughts:

-Whilst I'm sure there are horrific logistical snags, the extra long format works incredibly well.  I'd love to see more at this length if it's at all possible.
-Asimov wrote this at 21?  My God...

   Thanks for 100 episodes of consistently challenging science fiction and fantasy.  You've changed the playing field and for the better and for that as well as the phenomenal body of work you've built up, everyone at Pod Towers should be extremely proud.  And put me down to buy you a drink some time too:)
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: mummifiedstalin on April 11, 2007, 10:45:16 PM
And one final nitpick. The sentence: "Not Earth's feeble 36 hundred stars... " does break the scene of an universe that doesn't know anything about Earth or the possibility of its existence and makes it a story that is too directly aimed at a audience that does know of it.

I noticed this, too, but this was the first time I caught it.  I guess I had to hear it rather than read it.  But yeah, we have a nice third person narrative going from the newspaperman's POV, and then all of a sudden, Asimov starts talking to us, the audience.  It kind of broke me out of the story a bit, but not enough not to enjoy it.
Since it comes right at the end (even in the last paragraph of the story? I can't recall exactly), I don't think it really destroys the suspension of disbelief that much. But I've always read this story as one that depends on being very self-conscious about the story as a kind of thought experiment rather than a truly made up world we're supposed to believe in totally. That's not to say that Asimov hasn't created a very logical and thorough world. But so much of our reactions depend on knowing that some people are obviously wrong (of course there are stars, of course the reporter is far too self-confident, of course the religious freaks are misled by their own half-truths, etc.). The reference to Earth, to me, just reinforces the relationship to the "real" world...i.e., that, in the end, maybe there's something just as terrifying to us which is completely commonplace from a different perspective.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: restevenson on April 12, 2007, 04:14:20 PM
Hi!

While I'm sure it's been said a million times, and may perhaps not bear repeating, I do just want to say this: the story was fantastic, and I loved it. I've never actually read Nightfall, but it is such a charming concept that I enjoyed every moment of it (as I have with almost every story on Escape Pod ... why it took me this long to join the forums, I'm not sure ...)

There's a reason it's a sci fi great. Thanks Escape Pod / Steve!
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: MoonMan on April 12, 2007, 06:30:12 PM
I really enjoyed Steve's reading of Nightfall.  It's a great story and Steve did it justice.  I came away feeling not as if I had heard the words, but seen the images of the story.  That's "theater of the mind" as it should be.  Two thumbs up!
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: clichekiller on April 13, 2007, 03:45:35 AM
Asimov is one of my favorite authors, if not the most favorite.  I read the first book by him when I was in 5th grade and was swiftly hooked.  He was a most masterful writer capable of expressing complex concepts with very few words.  Steve thank you so much for bringing us this work.  It was a pleasant surprise. 
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Mfitz on April 13, 2007, 08:52:26 PM
[
The moon is the biggest stretch.  


No the biggest stretch is the complete lack of artificial lighting.

That would mean they have no buildings more than one or two rooms deep.  Sure there is always a sun, but what about basements, closets.  What about things like wells, or meat lockers that would be very hard to build with windowns?   How were they planning on developing the film without a dark room?  Didn't it ever rain on the planet?   That would dim sunlight enough to make supplementing it nice.

They have worked metal and mines, are almost all to some degree underground places that need artificial lighting. (OK maybe got everthing from open pit and strip mines but that would make getting metal way more eco damaging and labor intense.)

What about extreme sports types who would cave just because it was hard and unpleasant?  They would know about lighting.

Still, Wow what a good story.

I have not read Nightfall since grade school, when it didn't impress me. If not for your podcast I don't know that I would have read it again, and that would have been a shame.  At 47 I got a lot more from it than I did at 11.  I'm always amazed at Asimov's grasp of the little quirks that make us human and how well he uses them to make his characters people.

Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Thaurismunths on April 14, 2007, 04:29:05 PM
What about extreme sports types who would cave just because it was hard and unpleasant?  They would know about lighting.

Though not explicitly mentioned, I figure they'd be the ones who might survive the night with out going mad and survive to be "he who survived the night" and would carry on to give a full account that would become rumor, that would be come myth, that would become the foundation for religion.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: slic on April 16, 2007, 03:09:26 AM
What about extreme sports types who would cave just because it was hard and unpleasant?  They would know about lighting.

Though not explicitly mentioned, I figure they'd be the ones who might survive the night with out going mad and survive to be "he who survived the night" and would carry on to give a full account that would become rumor, that would be come myth, that would become the foundation for religion.

More or less, ya.  Just imagine a global catastrophe - a very small percentage of the population is always prepared (check out the zombe thread at http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=20.0 ) but most everyone else would go nuts.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: nix342 on April 16, 2007, 06:05:53 PM
Hooray for 100! I've been enjoying EP for a while now and now I'll make it official...thanks, Steve, for something great.

On to this particular episode, which was excellent, of course.

[
The moon is the biggest stretch. 


No the biggest stretch is the complete lack of artificial lighting.


I had that thought initially myself, particularly considering that this society had discovered electricity. But then I considered the fact that this world was eternally lit. Without regular periods of darkness, there would be no need to create even basic light sources. Furthermore, the intense fear of darkness would limit all activity in dark places, further delaying the necessity and therefore invention of artifical light.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: wakela on April 16, 2007, 11:56:45 PM
Best
Escape Pod
Evar

The graphic on top of the EP home page shows the pod escaping from the ailing mothership.  The once great freighters, dragging their loads of speculative fiction between the stars are damaged.  So a scrappy little pod is launched to provide fans with their fix.  Maybe at one time it was looking for a new home.  But not anymore. 
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Jonathan C. Gillespie on April 17, 2007, 12:37:24 AM
A belated congratulations on hitting 100, Steven and company.  You deserved every bit of success!  And thanks for putting "Nightfall" into a format wherein I'll have time to get to it :)
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: FanofIppo on April 19, 2007, 08:29:17 AM
Congrats to EP on the 100th podcast!

Checking from my itunes, I had started listening from the 56th podcast and I had enjoyed all of them!

Thanks for reading Nightfall, it was one of the first Asimov SF stories that I read and is one of the reasons why I love SF till today.

Here's to another wonderful 100!
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Thaurismunths on April 19, 2007, 11:25:42 AM
Checking from my itunes, I had started listening from the 56th podcast and I had enjoyed all of them!

I hope you've gone back and listened to the first 55 stories.
They're worth it!
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Simon on April 19, 2007, 02:01:25 PM
And one final nitpick. The sentence: "Not Earth's feeble 36 hundred stars... " does break the scene of an universe that doesn't know anything about Earth or the possibility of its existence and makes it a story that is too directly aimed at a audience that does know of it.

I noticed this, too, but this was the first time I caught it.  I guess I had to hear it rather than read it.  But yeah, we have a nice third person narrative going from the newspaperman's POV, and then all of a sudden, Asimov starts talking to us, the audience.  It kind of broke me out of the story a bit, but not enough not to enjoy it.

I add to this something which is almost preaching to those who already know, but I am surprised to find this comment isn't on wikipedia:  This final paragraph was not written by Asimov, it was written between submission and publication by Astounding's legendary editor John W. Campbell jr.  Asimov was furious that his prose had been tampered with, but was even more furious when this particularly fluid paragraph started being cited as evidence amongst the SF community that Asimov was indeed capable of writing beautiful language.  Campbell always had a way with beautiful language that Asimov lacked.

Asimov agreed with you that the mention of Earth broke the tone of the story, and I would like to say "Hurrah" to Steve for posting the original Astounding version as opposed to the Asimov version that has seen print in a few anthologies.  Much like a Horace Gold story for Galaxy in the 50s (there is a particularly amusing section about Gold's meddling in Fred Pohl's autobiography The Way The Future Was), a story for JWC was always partly a collaboration - this story was written from an idea given to Asimov by JWC.

Steve,  may you be SF's new JWC.

I am currently away from my library, so excuse me for the lack of citations for this little bit of sf history.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Swamp on April 19, 2007, 04:00:12 PM
This final paragraph was not written by Asimov, it was written between submission and publication by Astounding's legendary editor John W. Campbell jr.  Asimov was furious that his prose had been tampered with...

...Asimov agreed with you that the mention of Earth broke the tone of the story...

Thanks for the info.  Information like this is another example of why I love these forums.  I find these tidbits of publishing inside knowledge extremely interesting and entertaining.  And now it makes complete sense why the prose took a divergence at the end.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: ClintMemo on April 19, 2007, 05:01:03 PM
So did it replace something Asimov wrote or did Campbell just tack it on the end?

Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: sirana on April 20, 2007, 04:54:57 PM

I add to this something which is almost preaching to those who already know, but I am surprised to find this comment isn't on wikipedia:  This final paragraph was not written by Asimov, it was written between submission and publication by Astounding's legendary editor John W. Campbell jr. 


wow, this is indeed interesting. and I can understand Asimov beeing furious about it. thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: mummifiedstalin on April 22, 2007, 12:38:20 AM
So did it replace something Asimov wrote or did Campbell just tack it on the end?


Either way, wasn't that often typical of Campbell and one of the reasons so many writers often combined their admiration of him with a bit of uneasiness? Are there any other well-known examples?
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Roney on April 25, 2007, 08:01:58 PM
it's one thing to draw the curtains or go into a cave, when you know you can get the light back, and it's something completely different when the light goes away on it's own and you don't know if it will come back.

Absolutely.  I know intellectually that a total eclipse is a perfectly ordinary natural phenomenon and that totality only lasts a couple of minutes at most.  But seeing that shadow rush across the ground towards me, feeling the air cool and the light grow dimmer, hearing everyone and everything around me hush, and having the world go deep dark in the middle of the day was totally unnerving.

(Even though the sky was overcast at the time.  ****ing Cornish weather.  8) )

Compared to that, a lasting eclipse on a planet that had never known nighttime would have to be terrifying.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Febo on May 19, 2007, 08:01:17 PM
Perhaps these are photosynthetic people?
The quip about life not being sustainable on Earth because there isn't nearly enough light suggest that they need a lot of light for survival. That being the case, they wouldn't build structures that had dark spots. It'd be like us filling rooms with water or noxious gases: We could, but they'd be a bit of a hazard, so why bother?

I bet if Asimov wrote this story about 20 years later, he would have included details like the people being photosynthetic.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Michael on May 20, 2007, 03:09:23 AM
Asimov suffered from severe phobias and anxieties--he couldn't fly, which severely limited his ability to travel.  Much of his writing had that subtest--germ phobics, agoraphobics--this fear of darkness. Rather limits my enjoyment of his work, as I don't really relate.  Another 10 years and he might have made it to Prozac and not been so worried about it all. 
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Heradel on May 20, 2007, 10:17:05 AM
Asimov suffered from severe phobias and anxieties--he couldn't fly, which severely limited his ability to travel.  Much of his writing had that subtest--germ phobics, agoraphobics--this fear of darkness. Rather limits my enjoyment of his work, as I don't really relate.  Another 10 years and he might have made it to Prozac and not been so worried about it all. 

Well, if he could write whilst taking it.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Michael on May 20, 2007, 10:53:45 AM
Quote
Well, if he could write whilst taking it.


True that--many artistic types who tend to the bipolar or melancholic go off of or refuse to take their medications for that reason.

Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Russell Nash on May 29, 2007, 07:04:48 PM
Throughout history the eclipse has always had a huge impact.  One of the biggest forces pushing the science of astromonomy was the king's(or other type of leader) need to be able to tell the people that it was coming.  The sun disappearing from the sky was often seen as the end of the world or a message from the gods. 

As far as the whole world going dark, I have a few ideas:

1) Maybe they haven't explored the rest of the world yet and don't no if there's anything else
2) There may only be land on one side. The same as when the earth had Pangea(sp?)
3) The planet has stopped spinning in relation to the alpha star, just like the moon in relation to the earth.  Therefore the other side doesn't get enough heat to support life.
4) Combining #1 and #3 everyone is too scared to explore the other side of the planet, because it does get dark.

Oh yeah, belated congrats on #100 and the Beer here in Germany is known to be alright.  I'd be happy to supply the research material if you want to check that for yourself.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Vomithaus on December 18, 2007, 02:24:08 PM
What about blind people?  Would they not have had an easy time of this?  (forgive me if they covered in the story)
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Thaurismunths on December 18, 2007, 11:18:12 PM
What about blind people?  Would they not have had an easy time of this?  (forgive me if they covered in the story)
You're right in that the blind (if they existed) wouldn't have noticed the dark, or the impending stars, but with the whole rest of the world going crazy around them they wouldn't have lasted long... they're blind.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: gelee on December 19, 2007, 03:39:42 PM
What about blind people?  Would they not have had an easy time of this?  (forgive me if they covered in the story)
You're right in that the blind (if they existed) wouldn't have noticed the dark, or the impending stars, but with the whole rest of the world going crazy around them they wouldn't have lasted long... they're blind.
Perhaps all blind people are already batshit crazy in this setting?
I personally found the whole premise a bit difficult to swallow, but I think he made his point nicely about assuming certain universal constants, like a day-night cycle.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Czhorat on December 19, 2007, 09:12:35 PM
I read this story as a parable about the line between science and reason and how a society would react if what they saw as the laws of reality were to suddenly break down. Picking at the details of whether or not it would work is, in my opinion, beside the point.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: gelee on December 19, 2007, 09:34:48 PM
I read this story as a parable about the line between science and reason and how a society would react if what they saw as the laws of reality were to suddenly break down. Picking at the details of whether or not it would work is, in my opinion, beside the point.
Well put.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Rain on January 02, 2008, 04:07:09 PM
I really didnt like this story, part of it may be that it was announced as the best short story ever and i was expecting too much, but it also felt way too long with most of the time spent repeating the same message over and over and i felt the ending was very unimaginative, everyone is afraid the eclipse will drive them insane and then it does...
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: eytanz on January 02, 2008, 05:47:35 PM
i felt the ending was very unimaginative, everyone is afraid the eclipse will drive them insane and then it does...

That's pretty unfair to the story, I think - the point is not whether or not the eclipse drives them insane (which was a given), but the reason it did - everyone thought it would be the darkness that'll do it, but really it is the stars...
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Vomithaus on January 04, 2008, 04:55:22 AM
...it is a bit of a one trick story, though.  On the other hand, it is also kind of a kissing cousin to the "CONTACT" theme...  with SO MANY stars, maybe they are not alone?

I do think that the over-explaining of the situation hurts the story though.  The scientist is so arrogant...  I think Asimov must have been picked on a lot in school, and his fantasy was to know something everyone else missed. I think he got too much into that role.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Bdoomed on February 13, 2008, 08:15:26 PM
Does anyone know where i can find the text of this? I need it for school :P
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: eytanz on February 13, 2008, 08:21:27 PM
Does anyone know where i can find the text of this? I need it for school :P

It's still under copyright and not available online. You might be able to find a collection of Asimov stories in your local library. Otherwise I think your best bet is the following:

http://www.amazon.com/Isaac-Asimov-Complete-Stories-Vol/dp/038541627X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202933915&sr=8-1
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Darwinist on February 13, 2008, 08:30:12 PM
Does anyone know where i can find the text of this? I need it for school :P

It's still under copyright and not available online. You might be able to find a collection of Asimov stories in your local library. Otherwise I think your best bet is the following:

http://www.amazon.com/Isaac-Asimov-Complete-Stories-Vol/dp/038541627X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202933915&sr=8-1

Or if you have a used / half-price bookstore in your city.  I often see old Asimov collections collecting dust on bookstore shelves.  Probably cost you a couple of bucks. 
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: CammoBlammo on February 13, 2008, 10:26:32 PM
Does anyone know where i can find the text of this? I need it for school :P

It was also in Asimov's three or four months ago. That issue also had one or two stories inspired by Nightfall. You might be able to find it at your local newsagent.

Or at least so I think. It's sitting in the pile waiting for me to read. That iPod I got for Christmas stopped me reading for good.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Sanpaco on March 12, 2008, 04:12:10 PM
This episode got me hooked.  Awesome story and awesome production.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: zZzacha on May 18, 2008, 01:06:43 PM
Woohoo! I just finished listening to this wonderful version of Nightfall. I must admit, it's the only version of Nightfall I read/listened to, though I do have some radioplay versions on DVD somewhere. Soon I will listen to those too, I love the story, I love the whole concept Asimov is showing. Wow.
I hate it, that I cannot express my true feelings/ideas well enough, English is not my native language. I'm struggling to get my feelings out. Frustrating! But the story really keeps me thinking about other worlds, other ways a world may be, other ways in which other people may experience the world they live in. LOVE IT!!!!!

Also, Steve&EscapePod: Happy 100th Anniverary! Like you said, you're 1/10th on your way to the 1000th episode and I know EscapePod will live to see that one. I'm listening to all the 'old' episodes (hence this comment on the 100th) and I'm truly hooked. Steve, thank you for bringing all these wonderful stories to my ears (and brains!) and thanks for the intros and outros! Each time they teach me something new: be it a quote of someone, or a wonderful thought and even the stories about your little boy! Keep it up, I love what you're doing.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: jodymonster on May 21, 2008, 05:14:23 PM
Sorry to veer back on topic, but I just wanted to say that this was the very first episode of Escapepod I ever heard (more than a year ago, isn't it?), and I was instantly hooked.  It's still one of my all-time favorites. 
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Russell Nash on May 24, 2008, 07:12:38 PM
The conversation about the Saga of the Seven Suns complete with DRM rant and Audible bashing has been moved here (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1632.0).

It also has a pretty good plug for public libraries.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Ocicat on May 25, 2008, 02:49:53 AM
(reposting something that was moved, though it has nothing to do with Seven Suns... though admittedly only a little about Nightfall...)

At my software company, for years now we've been giving our releases code names from science fiction planets (why yes, this was partially my idea, why do you ask?)  Anyway, we go in alphabetical order, starting with Arrakis, and we've done Caladan, Hoth, Krypton, Klendathu, etc... Right now I'm working on Lagash.  How cool is that?
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: birdless on May 25, 2008, 06:30:34 AM
Very! Did you use Gallifrey?
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: stePH on May 25, 2008, 02:12:34 PM
Very! Did you use Gallifrey?

Oh, and be sure to use Skaro when the time comes!  :)
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Russell Nash on May 29, 2008, 07:35:19 PM
(reposting something that was moved, though it has nothing to do with Seven Suns... though admittedly only a little about Nightfall...)

Not every move is perfect.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Windup on June 01, 2008, 05:52:35 AM

Not every move is perfect.


Wow.  Not often you hear something like that from a diety....    :D
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: wintermute on June 01, 2008, 03:00:59 PM
Sure you do. Just not from the desperate-for-attention ones that make not worshipping them punishable by infinite torture.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Russell Nash on June 01, 2008, 05:40:43 PM

Not every move is perfect.


Wow.  Not often you hear something like that from a diety....    :D

I am as humble as I am powerful.

Edit: typo.  A little added irony.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Sledge on June 14, 2008, 05:05:19 PM
;D (http://io9.com/5015613/space-madness-strikes-security-guard)
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: wintermute on June 16, 2008, 11:53:18 AM
"Oh Homer, you're as smart as you are handsome!"

"HEY... Oh, you meant that as a compliment."
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Bdoomed on June 17, 2008, 05:37:56 AM
is the book version of this story any good? im thinkin of picking it up.

"Oh Homer, you're as smart as you are handsome!"

"HEY... Oh, you meant that as a compliment."
ROFL
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Unblinking on March 01, 2010, 06:13:50 PM
Good to see an Asimov story, and a fitting choice for the centurian episode!  I don't like much of the "Golden Age" SF, and though this shared some of the same characteristics, it was based on a cool idea and carried it out well.

I did think it was rather longer than it needed to be, and I did have some plausibility problem.  Namely, I could believe the madness of the darkness, but I found it hard to believe that it was civilization ending.  There would be many survivors, and though most of them would have claustrophobia, they would still retain memories of their scientific and social knowledge before the change.  And afterward they could write records, and since everyone experienced the time of darkness, those would be records, not myths.  And, presumably there's some small portion that would not be claustrophobic, and those people would be able to go into the buildings that didn't burn (you can't tell me they're burning down concrete buildings) and salvage information and equipment to share with the rest of them. 

But, the idea at the core was cool enough that this didn't break my enjoyment to any great degree.  :)
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Yargling on March 03, 2010, 06:34:05 PM
Good to see an Asimov story, and a fitting choice for the centurian episode!  I don't like much of the "Golden Age" SF, and though this shared some of the same characteristics, it was based on a cool idea and carried it out well.

I did think it was rather longer than it needed to be, and I did have some plausibility problem.  Namely, I could believe the madness of the darkness, but I found it hard to believe that it was civilization ending.  There would be many survivors, and though most of them would have claustrophobia, they would still retain memories of their scientific and social knowledge before the change.  And afterward they could write records, and since everyone experienced the time of darkness, those would be records, not myths.  And, presumably there's some small portion that would not be claustrophobic, and those people would be able to go into the buildings that didn't burn (you can't tell me they're burning down concrete buildings) and salvage information and equipment to share with the rest of them. 

But, the idea at the core was cool enough that this didn't break my enjoyment to any great degree.  :)


The darkness wasn't the source of the madness, as they even said in the story.

The source of the madness was the sudden realisation of how tiny they where in the universe - up until that point, no living being on their world had any idea the Universe was bigger than their own star system. And then to suddenly see the billions of stars in the Galactic core (because their world was located near it) - that is what droven them insane. We were born into a world with a clear night sky, so we've always ahd a notation that Earth isn't all their is.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Unblinking on March 04, 2010, 02:52:27 PM
The darkness wasn't the source of the madness, as they even said in the story.

The source of the madness was the sudden realisation of how tiny they where in the universe - up until that point, no living being on their world had any idea the Universe was bigger than their own star system. And then to suddenly see the billions of stars in the Galactic core (because their world was located near it) - that is what droven them insane. We were born into a world with a clear night sky, so we've always ahd a notation that Earth isn't all their is.

That wasn't what I heard in the story.  That was one theory, sure, but fear of the dark seemed to be the primary cause--otherwise what was the point of the scene where they turned the lights off in the room to see the effect.

Even if I misunderstood that, I still stand by my main point that I doubt that it would've been the end of civilization.  And, like I said, even though I didn't really believe that, it was still a good story for the cool idea at the core.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Yargling on March 04, 2010, 03:10:09 PM
The darkness wasn't the source of the madness, as they even said in the story.

The source of the madness was the sudden realisation of how tiny they where in the universe - up until that point, no living being on their world had any idea the Universe was bigger than their own star system. And then to suddenly see the billions of stars in the Galactic core (because their world was located near it) - that is what droven them insane. We were born into a world with a clear night sky, so we've always ahd a notation that Earth isn't all their is.

That wasn't what I heard in the story.  That was one theory, sure, but fear of the dark seemed to be the primary cause--otherwise what was the point of the scene where they turned the lights off in the room to see the effect.

Even if I misunderstood that, I still stand by my main point that I doubt that it would've been the end of civilization.  And, like I said, even though I didn't really believe that, it was still a good story for the cool idea at the core.

Yes, that was the point of the 'dark room' experiment - they showed that the darkness, whilst uncomfortable and scary, wasn't enough to drive them mad. Their experiment didn't include billions of light pinpoints in the sky showing how insignificant their world was compared to their previous thoughts.

I mean, they though the universe was only 1 star system big, and a 2 to 4 star system universe was HUGE for them to think of. Imagine that everything, and I mean EVERYTHING you thought you knew about reality was suddenly shown to be wrong in one escapeable view of the galactic core. And at the same time, there is a huge dark clinging void above you on a world were you may never have seen thick shadow before. And its so dark you can't even see yourself. For them, burning everything and anything they could was the answer.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: eytanz on March 04, 2010, 03:47:21 PM
The darkness wasn't the source of the madness, as they even said in the story.

The source of the madness was the sudden realisation of how tiny they where in the universe - up until that point, no living being on their world had any idea the Universe was bigger than their own star system. And then to suddenly see the billions of stars in the Galactic core (because their world was located near it) - that is what droven them insane. We were born into a world with a clear night sky, so we've always ahd a notation that Earth isn't all their is.

That wasn't what I heard in the story.  That was one theory, sure, but fear of the dark seemed to be the primary cause--otherwise what was the point of the scene where they turned the lights off in the room to see the effect.


I'm sorry to say this, but I really think you missed the whole intended point of the story. As Yargling points out, The darkness thing is very carefully set up as a red herring, but the scientists prove conclusively that it cannot be the cause of civilization collapse. They are expecting to see a night of pure darkness, and they are ready for it. What drives them mad is that night is not pure darkness, but rather the existence of stars.

That said, you may well be right to argue that this is psychologically implausible - that whatever madness this revelation created would be short-lived and people would recover. After all, humans have an amazing ability to move past shocking events; maybe shaken, but not destroyed. There is a cop-out argument here (these aren't humans, after all, but an alien race - maybe their psychological makeup is different), but I think that insisting on this sort of realism here is, again, missing the point. This isn't a story about how people get driven mad, but rather this is a story about the limits of science - the scientists in the story could plan for darkness, but they could never anticipate stars, because there was no way for them to get any evidence of their existence. What about our own science? What are scientists missing simply because the evidence is out of our field of vision? That is what the story, ultimately, is about.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Unblinking on March 04, 2010, 07:15:07 PM
I'm sorry to say this, but I really think you missed the whole intended point of the story.

That seems rather rude.  If I didn't get the same point out of the story that you did, then you shouldn't jump to the immediate conclusion that I missed the point.  Interpretations being what they are, none of them are more correct than any other if drawn from the story.  I'm not saying that your interpretation is wrong.  I'm just saying that mine is not wrong either, any more than an interpretation of a painting can be wrong.

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The darkness thing is very carefully set up as a red herring, but the scientists prove conclusively that it cannot be the cause of civilization collapse. They are expecting to see a night of pure darkness, and they are ready for it. What drives them mad is that night is not pure darkness, but rather the existence of stars.

They didn't prove it in any way that convinced me.  They put some guys in the dark and poked some holes in the ceiling for a couple hours and they didn't go crazy.  As they'd already pointed out before that, sitting in a dark room is not the same thing as seeing the sun apparently extinguish itself for half a day.  They did already know about the existence of stars, or at least had strong theories about it, because they talked about it long before the sun went out.  It was even included in their experiment--though again, such an experiment is such a far cry from actually seeing the sun turn off that it doesn't conclusively prove a darn thing.

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There is a cop-out argument here (these aren't humans, after all, but an alien race - maybe their psychological makeup is different), but I think that insisting on this sort of realism here is, again, missing the point.

There were many clues that these are humans, are at least a parallel universe portrait of humans.  No mentions of different anatomies.  Their societal structures and buildings are very similar to what we've had.  They have psychological disorders like claustrophobia that are identical to ours.  They even have theme parks with roller coasters.  To me there's no compelling evidence that they are different from us in any significant way other than the world they grew up on.

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but I think that insisting on this sort of realism here is, again, missing the point.

I'm not insisting on anything and I've said multiple times that I liked the story anyway.  Though I don't insist on absolute plausibility to enjoy a story, I think plausibility is still an interesting aspect of a story to discuss.  I'm not crying "This story is crap because I don't believe it".  I'm simply saying "I don't think it would happen quite that way".
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: eytanz on March 04, 2010, 07:56:48 PM
I'm sorry to say this, but I really think you missed the whole intended point of the story.

That seems rather rude.  If I didn't get the same point out of the story that you did, then you shouldn't jump to the immediate conclusion that I missed the point.  Interpretations being what they are, none of them are more correct than any other if drawn from the story.  I'm not saying that your interpretation is wrong.  I'm just saying that mine is not wrong either, any more than an interpretation of a painting can be wrong.

I wasn't trying to be rude. And note that I didn't say you missed the point of the story. I said you missed the intended point. Your interpretation is certainly as valid as mine, but I think in this case - especially as this is a classic story that has been expanded into a novel - we know what the author intended, and it's not what you said. That certainly doesn't devalue your interpretation, or say that it is wrong.

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but I think that insisting on this sort of realism here is, again, missing the point.

I'm not insisting on anything and I've said multiple times that I liked the story anyway.  Though I don't insist on absolute plausibility to enjoy a story, I think plausibility is still an interesting aspect of a story to discuss.  I'm not crying "This story is crap because I don't believe it".  I'm simply saying "I don't think it would happen quite that way".

Whoa, you're taking what I said here and twisting it into something completely different. First, this part of my message wasn't directed at you - it was directed at the proposal I just made (though, I guess, that wasn't necessarily clear). I was trying - badly, it seems - that someone who would attempt to answer your critique of the story by saying these are aliens would be barking down the wrong tree. Secondly, I never said you didn't like it, and I can't imagine why you would think I meant that.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Unblinking on March 04, 2010, 09:29:16 PM
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I wasn't trying to be rude. And note that I didn't say you missed the point of the story. I said you missed the intended point.

Unless you are Mr. Asimov in disguise, then you can only speculate on his intended point.  Heck, I don't even know what I intend half the time, let alone figuring out the internal workings of another human being.  :)  In any case, even the author's view of a story is but one interpretation, so an intended interpretation carries only as much weight as a reader's interpretation (at least to me).  In any case, I'd misunderstood your intent, and sorry about the rudeness comment.

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Whoa, you're taking what I said here and twisting it into something completely different. First, this part of my message wasn't directed at you - it was directed at the proposal I just made (though, I guess, that wasn't necessarily clear). I was trying - badly, it seems - that someone who would attempt to answer your critique of the story by saying these are aliens would be barking down the wrong tree. Secondly, I never said you didn't like it, and I can't imagine why you would think I meant that.

Any twisting was completely unintentional.  The sentence I was responding to:
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There is a cop-out argument here (these aren't humans, after all, but an alien race - maybe their psychological makeup is different), but I think that insisting on this sort of realism here is, again, missing the point.

Ah, I hadn't realized that you were explaining that your proposed counter-argument would be barking up the wrong tree.  I'd thought that the "insisting on this sort of realism" and "missing the point" was referring to me and my claim that the eclipse wouldn't end the civilization.  The reason I thought that you were saying that I didn't enjoy the story is that if I insisted on realism and didn't get it, that I'd be dissatisfied.  Which I see now that you weren't referring to me at all, so never mind.

anyway, back to your regularly scheduled program.   ;D
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: CryptoMe on March 06, 2010, 07:05:16 AM
"I don't think it would happen quite that way".

I agree. I think it would happen the way Douglas Adams envisioned it. People would see all the stars and say "it has to go".   :D
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Unblinking on March 08, 2010, 05:55:25 PM
"I don't think it would happen quite that way".

I agree. I think it would happen the way Douglas Adams envisioned it. People would see all the stars and say "it has to go".   :D

 ;D  Ah, Douglas Adams, what a visionary!  I always carry a towel.  I never know when I might need it!
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: captain0terror on January 26, 2011, 09:53:25 PM
I tried posting comments to the download page, but couldn't figure out how to do it. (do comments close after a certain number of posts or amount of time?)

Firstly, i thought it a fitting story for steve to run at the 100th episode, since he held the story in such high esteem and mentioned as much in one of the very first EP episodes.

Narration by Steve was exceptional as always, but unfortunately i was less than impressed with the story for many reasons:

-WAY too long/boring to tell the story as it was. you could have cut the length by 3/4 and conveyed the same thing, leaving out not a single, important plot device; i fell asleep 3 times in 3 attempts to listen, and finally i just FF to the end.

-Main plot theme is just implausible. perhaps if there were some creative plot development describing how one could could possibly go insane by blocking out the sun.  Hell, i'm all for a crazed, apocalyptic armageddon brought on by some catalyst, just make that catalyst interesting and at least semi-plausible.

-Ending is just dumb. If you're gonna go out on a limb like this with such a thin main plot, at least come up with an interesting twist at the end, or again, some explanation to make it all somewhat believable.
'
I apologize for not liking the story. i feel like a traitor to EP by whining about Steve's "favourite short story of all time,"(i think he said something like that and i apologize again for not being sure how to correctly paraphrase), but this story was just balls.

=(
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: eytanz on January 26, 2011, 10:02:33 PM
I tried posting comments to the download page, but couldn't figure out how to do it. (do comments close after a certain number of posts or amount of time?)


It's not a time-based thing; about 2 years ago or so, the decision was made to avoid having comments in two places so all the posts on escapepod.org point here instead of allowing comments directly. The old comments were not deleted, however, so that may be confusing.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: statisticus on July 12, 2012, 05:03:34 AM
Making my haphazard & non-linear way through old episodes of Escape Pod I finally get to revisit Asimov's classic story.

This is one that I read many years ago and enjoyed well enough, but at the back of my mind I've had Asimov pegged as someone whose work I've enjoyed but who wasn't really up there with my favourite authors.  Coming to this story again after a long break I'm thinking I need to reconsider that.  Great reading from Steve, as others have mentioned already, and the story itself is deservedly a classic.  This time around I noticed how well the alien civilisation is described; like us but not like us.  Like us in that they are obviously human in so many ways, but unlike us in how their psychology and their technology and civilisation is shaped by their environment.  Cameras, cars, newspapers are all commonplace, but candles are a major technological innovation - loved it!

One thing I wondered about though.  Just how well would they be able to see the stars when the eclipse became total?  We Earth humans have evolved in a regular cycle of night and darkness and our eyes are adapted to operate in low light as well as in daylight.  We have separate sensor cells (rod cells) to see in dim light as well as the cone cells which allow us to see bright colours in daylight.  These people are never exposed to dim conditions and so would never need to evolve eyes which could handle them, any more than their minds can handle darkness; I suggest that they would not be able to see stars with unaided eyes with anything like the ease which we can.  Of course, they would see something - some stars are bright enough for us to see  as coloured points & presumably be visible to rod-less eyes, but the sight wouldn't be anything like as majestic as what we would see in the same place.

That's if the stars weren't drowned by moonlight.  Don't forget that the object doing the eclipsing is large (I suspect at least as big as the moon in our sky, prossibly much bigger) and is being lit up by no less than five suns.  While there might be night, it would be lit by a moonlight much stronger than what we would get.

These are quibbles, of course.  Great story, and thanks to EP and Steve for 'casting it.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Devoted135 on July 30, 2012, 08:15:32 PM
I started listening to Escape Pod right around episode 200 (I can't remember exactly) and started posting here *goes and checks profile information* at episode 266. Now I'm making my way through the episodes that I missed, and I must say that this was a fitting celebration for episode 100! It really is amazing to see what Steve accomplished and I'm so glad to be one small part of his legacy as it lives on.

I've gone back and forth on this story. My initial reaction while listening was to try and imagine the reason for each anomaly as it came up in the story. Wait, why is the dark scary? Oh, they have so many suns that it never gets dark out. Ever. Wait, what about inside? Why do they not have artificial light? Oh, it's always so light out that they didn't bother inventing it, they just made windows. Note that they could very well have electricity (actually, they probably need it for their newspapers, etc) without ever inventing the light bulb.

One really telling moment for me was when a scientist referred to the "fact" that the universe was 4-6 light years across, so conceivably there could be 6 or *gasp* 12 stars in the universe. When the generally accepted wisdom is very suddenly revealed to be so astronomically wrong, I can almost believe that people would go nuts.* I'm not sure I can get 100% of the way there, but certainly I can suspend disbelief high enough to really enjoy this story for the classic that it is, and I'm really glad to have heard it narrated here!



*Anecdote: I work in an HIV research lab. My PI's (=boss) former advisor is notorious for cussing people out for experimental results that challenge her idea of how the virus works. As in extremely foul language accusing people of seriously messing up their data, cc'd to about 20 collaborators. Yeah.
Title: Re: EP100: Nightfall
Post by: Marlboro on November 10, 2019, 07:14:56 PM
I'm ashamed to admit it, but I didn't really understand what caused the people's madness in this story until it was explained in this thread. I have read the story multiple times, heard at least 3 audio versions, and seen a bad movie based on it and still managed to miss something that was spelled out in the text.  So embarrassing.

 One criticism: I wish the people in the story had been more alien and less 1940s American. It just takes me out of the story when a character on an alien planet exclaims "Baloney!"