Escape Artists
Escape Pod => Science Fiction Discussion => Topic started by: stePH on October 04, 2013, 09:12:20 PM
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In the end, Picard saw five lights. Gul Madred broke him; he just didn't get to know it.
The parting "There are four lights!" was no triumphant assertion of Picard's indomitable will - rather, it was an impotent protest of petulant rage against the man who had beaten him.
Don't believe it? Watch the final scene with Counselor Troi again, and listen to the last thing Picard says.
He escaped, but he didn't win. Deal with it.
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So, is there a context to this? Or just a random observation about a 21-year old television episode?
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So, is there a context to this? Or just a random observation about a 21-year old television episode?
I think her Personal Text says is all: "Cool story, Bro!" ;)
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So, is there a context to this? Or just a random observation about a 21-year old television episode?
I think her Personal Text says is all: "Cool story, Bro!" ;)
His. Hi stePH- long time, no see!
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So, is there a context to this? Or just a random observation about a 21-year old television episode?
I think her Personal Text says is all: "Cool story, Bro!" ;)
His. Hi stePH- long time, no see!
My mistake :-\
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So, is there a context to this? Or just a random observation about a 21-year old television episode?
Seeing yet another instance of inattentive fans thinking Picard won that exchange.
When somebody on FB posts "There are four lights!" it's invariably with the idea that he never broke.
It just bugs me, is all.
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cutter i love your profile pic and quote lol
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Seeing yet another instance of inattentive fans thinking Picard won that exchange.
When somebody on FB posts "There are four lights!" it's invariably with the idea that he never broke.
It just bugs me, is all.
You are entirely correct in this. It's just another example of people taking Holy Writ out of context.
Geez, that was a powerful ep. (Well, two really)
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David Warner really gave a command performance in that story. Both he and Patrick Stewart did.
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Great, I never knew there were people out there that thought he didn't break. I loved that episode BECAUSE he broke. It was a fantastic storyline.
Now I'm just irritated with all those fools who didn't give Picard his props for breaking and being able to move forward in spite of it. It was inspiring.
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Now I'm just irritated with all those fools who didn't give Picard his props for breaking and being able to move forward in spite of it. It was inspiring.
That's Picard. The greatest starship captain ever. I draw inspiration from him.
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Now I'm just irritated with all those fools who didn't give Picard his props for breaking and being able to move forward in spite of it. It was inspiring.
Well, yeah, what else can you do? After an ordeal like that, you either sit in the corner sobbing and rocking, or you accept it it and move on.
Just don't pretend he scored a victory, is all I'm saying.
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Not directly related, but I recently saw the episode from which the memetic screencap of Picard gesturing emphatically toward the screen is taken. (KnowYourMeme calls it "annoyed Picard"). It amused me when I realized that this "dramatic gesture" is from a comic scene where Picard is very unconvincingly (to a human audience--his intended Ferengi audience buys it) pretending to be a angry jealous boyfriend of Lwaxana Troi. That his his fake "bad acting" became a meme for annoyance is kinda funny. when you look at the photo knowing the context you can see the little comedic twinkle in Patrick Stewart's eye.
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Now I'm just irritated with all those fools who didn't give Picard his props for breaking and being able to move forward in spite of it. It was inspiring.
That's Picard. The greatest starship captain ever. I draw inspiration from him.
THIS. Patrick Stewart is my hero, almost more than Captain Picard, but I have vivid memories of watching that episode as a child and not knowing I could bear another minute longer. It's still incredibly hard to watch, but I make myself every year or so just to remind myself that torture can defeat even the greatest men.
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Just saw this thread, it reminded me of a quick little comic thing I put together:
(http://i.imgur.com/NRuFm1I.png)
Turns out it was just a big misunderstanding.
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Are you truly broken if your captor does not know it? The purpose of that interrogation was to "win", sure Picard was broken, everyone has a breaking point, and Picard knew he passed his, but he did not let his captor know it.
(this may be a little sophmoric, like "what is truth", but I thought it was an important point.) Can Picard take some solace in that he did not let it show?
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That interrogation was, of course, a tribute to Winston Smith's interrogation in 1984.
Smith saw a hand with six digits, "And there was no deformity."
However, Smith was truly broken, becoming a loyal subject and servant of Big Brother and turning his back utterly on his earlier rebelliousness. Picard, on the other hand, (LOL) saw the fifth light, but was sufficiently aware of what was going on to realise that he was only imagining it in response to suggestion, and so, as someone already pointed out, was able to continue to claim that there were only four lights.
I guess Picard must have had training in resisting interrogation. Smith certainly hadn't.
Oh yeah...And Picard had probably read 1984. That would certainly have helped. ;)
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That interrogation was, of course, a tribute to Winston Smith's interrogation in 1984.
That was not lost on me, not even when I first saw the episode. The whole four/five argument immediately brought to mind Winston writing in his diary "Freedom is the freedom to say that two and two make four." And O'Brien later asking him during interrogation "...and if the Party says it is not four, but five?"
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Are you truly broken if your captor does not know it?
YOU know it. It's enough.
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Are you truly broken if your captor does not know it?
YOU know it. It's enough.
Hmmm... Let me direct you to a little history. In 1982, 2000 Argentine conscript infantrymen and aircraft ground crew fought and beat a force of elite British paratroopers and commando artillery.
Does this change the fact that they then promptly surrendered the town of Goose Green to their beaten foe, notwithstanding that if they didn't, all that would happen was that the brits would go back to San Carlos and leave Goose Green alone for the rest of the Falklands War?
I think not.
Your trouble is that you mistake maintaining your pride with achieving your objective.
Britain may have seen it's finest humbled by the scrapings from the bottom of the military barrel, but they still took the objective!
It's called, 'Focusing on the greater goal.'
In Picard's case, all that mattered was that he stuck to his guns. It matters not that the victory was pyrrhic. A pyrrhic victory is still victory so long as your opponent cannot counter attack before you have a chance to recover.
Picard's thoughts are naturally going to be negative, that's why he needs to see a therapist, but even if he was on the verge of breaking, he did not. He did not reveal any information, nor let on that he was about to crack.
Objective achieved, as in The Battle Of Goose Green, by simply allowing your enemy to believe that they have lost.