Escape Artists

Escape Pod => Episode Comments => Topic started by: eytanz on April 21, 2015, 09:31:40 AM

Title: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: eytanz on April 21, 2015, 09:31:40 AM
EP490: Flowers for Algernon (http://escapepod.org/2015/04/20/ep490-flowers-for-algernon/)

by Daniel Keyes

Read by Dave Thompson (http://podcastle.org/)

---

(http://escapepod.org/wp-images/podcast-mini4.gif) Listen to this week’s Escape Pod! (http://traffic.libsyn.com/escapepod/EP490_FlowersForAlgernon.mp3)
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: matweller on April 21, 2015, 01:13:21 PM
It probably goes without saying, but this story is a classic in a lot of circles. If anybody knows a teacher that can pass this episode on to teachers that would be using this book in schools, it would be a great supplement. Have them contact me and I'll even be happy to get them re-edited versions without the intro & outro or we could probably even nudge Alasdair into doing an intro custom-tailored to schools...perhaps even to particular schools...

Point is, multimedia makes reading more interesting for kids, and this episode could help with that effort and we wouldn't mind the promo at all... ;)
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: Alasdair5000 on April 21, 2015, 01:30:23 PM
Consider me nudged:) This was an honor to talk about and I'd love to expand and modify the outro into teacher's notes. Everyone, all the way down the line, nailed this. Outstanding work, folks.
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: SpareInch on April 21, 2015, 02:23:20 PM
You know, for years now, I've regularly heard Tony C Smith on the Starship Sofa podcast raving about what a great story Flowers For Algernon is...

I guess now I know why.

As Alistair said in the outro, at no point does Charlie's character or personality change. He just becomes gradually more, and then less, knowledgable and articulate. One of the big achievements of this story for me is that it managed to show that so effectively.

In the process, the study of the way people regard mental conditions of all sorts, whether illnesses or learning disabilities, was both touching and insightful.

Good call guys!
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: matweller on April 21, 2015, 03:28:13 PM
Now can we do Terminal Man, a.k.a. Flowers for Algernon + killing?
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: LynneSkysong on April 22, 2015, 01:30:43 AM
I think the story well written, but what really made quite visceral to me was the way it was read. Not only did the words change, but also the flow of the story. I don't think this story would've made half impact on me it I had read it. I tend to read pretty fast and this forced me to see the story from Charles's point of view.
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: nem0fazer on April 22, 2015, 04:45:49 AM
Amazing story, amazing reading. One of my all time favourites had me crying driving home from work so much I pulled over. Thank you. Sort of.
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: FullMetalAttorney on April 22, 2015, 05:09:00 AM
I don't normally like the journal style of fiction writing. But this, this is beautiful. The author took what was such a simple sci-fi "What if?" scenario and turned it into an intensely human, touching, and ultimately heartbreaking story. That's what the very best of sci-fi can do.
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: Moon_Goddess on April 22, 2015, 01:11:28 PM
I saw this in the feed and my first reaction was "Cool, good story, guess I can skip this episode, I remember we read this in the 7th grade, very sad.    Well, I'll listen to the intro and outros."

But after the intro I just kept listening.   I'm so glad I did.

Dave Thompson, your reading of this story was masterful.    I never thought about how hard it would be to bring the story to audio, so much of the story is conveyed in spelling and punctuation, and Dave you brought these attributes to your speech, in a way I could hear spelling mistakes in your voice.   That is talent, I could almost be inclined to call this the best reading ever.

And to Alistair, and to the wonderful late Mr. Keyes, damn you both for making me bawl my eyes out on on the drive to work.

After listening to this story I feel driven to embellish my speech with long words, hope no one listening to this has sesquipedalophobia.
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: albionmoonlight on April 22, 2015, 03:19:12 PM
I have nothing to add.  One of my favorite stories of all time.  Presented with the care and attention it deserves.
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: InfiniteMonkey on April 24, 2015, 06:13:01 AM
God, will that last line ever not make me cry? :'(

Oh, yeah, and Alisdair - your exit didn't exactly help….  ;)
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: gotbot on April 24, 2015, 08:01:44 PM
I was very touched by this story. I had never read it or even heard of it before. Dave, your reading was absolutely masterful. You brought Charlie to life in a beautiful way and your reading reinforced the effect the author intended with the bell curve of literacy reflected in the progress reports.

People who once felt superior to Charlie grew so uncomfortable around him as his intelligence progressed. This goes beyond discomfort with change or unfamiliarity. People often react badly when someone around them improves themselves in some way. This was magnified with Charlie's coworkers. This wasn't a normal man of their average intelligence outgrowing them. It was Charlie Gordon, the man who was the butt of their jokes, whose name was associated with stupidity and failure. For him to surpass them all, and so quickly, must have been extremely threatening to their egos. This theme culminated in the restaurant scene when Charlie suddenly realized the dishwasher boy was his old self and that he, Charlie, was now on the other side of the glass, just as amused as other patrons. But when he realizes this then stands up in anger and admonishes everybody in the room, I wanted to stand up and cheer! "But he's still a human being for God's sake!"

Title: Re: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: bounceswoosh on April 25, 2015, 10:56:10 PM
I saw this in the feed and my first reaction was "Cool, good story, guess I can skip this episode, I remember we read this in the 7th grade, very sad.    Well, I'll listen to the intro and outros."

But after the intro I just kept listening.   I'm so glad I did.

Dave Thompson, your reading of this story was masterful.    I never thought about how hard it would be to bring the story to audio, so much of the story is conveyed in spelling and punctuation, and Dave you brought these attributes to your speech, in a way I could hear spelling mistakes in your voice.   That is talent, I could almost be inclined to call this the best reading ever.

And to Alistair, and to the wonderful late Mr. Keyes, damn you both for making me bawl my eyes out on on the drive to work.

After listening to this story I feel driven to embellish my speech with long words, hope no one listening to this has sesquipedalophobia.
I was going to post, but you said exactly what I was going to. I was going to skip it; started listening anyway; DKT's reading brings it to a while new level. I'm only a few minutes in, but this story always makes me bawl; I expect this reading to be the same, just more.
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: l33tminion on April 26, 2015, 01:19:21 AM
I really enjoyed hearing this story. Great writing and great narration.
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: Swamp on April 26, 2015, 03:06:16 AM
And that, my friends, is why Dave Thompson is so awesome!  That is also why Alasdair Stuart is awesome.  Indeed, that is why Daniel Keyes and science fiction and podcasting and storytelling and emotion and art and life are all Awesome! That story, that reading, that commentary.  Perfect.
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: huntsoda360 on April 26, 2015, 03:59:28 AM
Wow! Having never read this, and not even really knowing what it was about, I found it so touching. Kind of surprised it's taught in middles schools/junior highs - it has an almost Frankenstein level discussion of science that I really enjoyed. Charlie and Algernon made me proud, scared, and sad. It was lovely.
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: NumberFive on April 26, 2015, 05:13:50 AM
Listening to this story was amazing. Somehow I must have missed that week in school, because although I remembered the name of the story I did not know what it was about.  Or maybe I was daydreaming that week. Perhaps listening to an outstanding audio reading made it all the more impact foul. Great job everyone!
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: Unblinking on April 27, 2015, 01:54:55 PM
I originally read this in a high school or junior high lit class, and it was one of those that really made me appreciate those classes--this is the best kind of science fiction to me, the kind that makes you care, the kind that makes you think not only ofwhat could be in some fictional world but about things in the real world.  As a teen I found Charlie positively charming, and loved the use of punctuation and spelling and grammar to show his progression and regression, and the story incredibly affecting.  Dave's reading was amazing, and only enhanced what is already an incredible story.

I've talked to my old English teacher from time to time, I think I might drop him a link to the podcast.

When I originally read it, there were a couple parts that I had trouble grasping entirely.  One was I didn't understand fully why he identified so strongly with Algernon, and had to have it explained to me that Charlie thinks of Algernon not only as a friend but as an analog for himself.  Another part I didn't notice in this story--maybe it was only in the novelized version?  I think we read the novelized version.  I think that in that version there was a scene where Charlie looked out the window (I think when his teacher was over for dinner?) and instead of seeing out or seeing his own reflection his saw the old Charlie, the less intelligent Charlie, looking back at him, and if I remember correctly he responds to this vision with rage.  At the time I didn't understand this at all, didn't understand that this hallucination was his mind building on a metaphor of the Charlie he used to be--I thought there was somehow an actual physical copy of him outside and found this hard to grasp.

Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: Dwango on April 28, 2015, 05:57:08 PM
This... My favorite Science Fiction Story.  I teared up again and I've read it multiple times.  Such a simple idea that can touch on so many important themes and create such strong emotion, and yet it is such a down to earth story and so personal.  Great narration of a wonderful classic. 
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: FireTurtle on April 29, 2015, 02:03:53 AM
Oh EscapePod- like many, I thought about skipping this episode- but the tantalizing prospect of Dave's reading drew me in (and the daunting process of applying 200 star decals to my daughter's ceiling without entertainment).

You rewarded me greatly for my decision. Greatly. This is a story I treasure and you did it great justice. I applaud you for your bravery in choosing to take one this masterpiece, and pulling it off. I am also very happy to see that you have reached an audience that had not yet been exposed to this classic.

Bravo.
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: HeartSailor on April 29, 2015, 03:23:00 AM
I'll throw my 2 cents worth in. 

A reason why this is a "comfortable read" for those familiar to Science Fiction.  A recurring theme in SciFi is trying to relate to another being/society/race with whom there is little common ground for communication.   As this story so deftly illustrates, this often results in misunderstanding and abuse.  Interesting, as Charlie took his trip over the Gaussian curve and back, that when he was at either extreme he had a hard time relating to those in the middle- the mean.  That's not a bad way of looking at it- that Charlie had a hard time relating to the "mean."  And the mean were, in the end, fairly mean.

The other thing that struck me was the utter horror Charlie must have felt knowing that he would lose his mind.  I'm not sure that there is anything more horrifying than possibility of knowing for certain that I will lose my mind.  Thinking that there's nothing I can do about it.  All of the ideas, creativity, memories, and consciousness that I count as "me" will either be forgotten, lost, or become incomprehensible.  While I might remain a sweet, kind and hardworking person, I will not be the me that I want to be.  This brought to mind the tragedy and hardship of what Alzheimer's might mean for those who either have it or those who might live with someone who has it. 

I have to firmly agree with those who are grateful to once again hear this classic.  Thank you.

-HS
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: Unblinking on April 29, 2015, 02:04:08 PM
The other thing that struck me was the utter horror Charlie must have felt knowing that he would lose his mind.  I'm not sure that there is anything more horrifying than possibility of knowing for certain that I will lose my mind.  Thinking that there's nothing I can do about it.  All of the ideas, creativity, memories, and consciousness that I count as "me" will either be forgotten, lost, or become incomprehensible.  While I might remain a sweet, kind and hardworking person, I will not be the me that I want to be.  This brought to mind the tragedy and hardship of what Alzheimer's might mean for those who either have it or those who might live with someone who has it. 

I hear you. Alzheimer's/dementia is probably the thing I'm most scared of, at least among those things that is likely to happen to me.
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: Chumbawumba on April 30, 2015, 10:14:23 PM
If ever a story needed perfect narration it was this one. That slide up and down needs to be so subtle to be effective.

Step forward Dave Thompson. You've done a man's work, sir!
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: shanehalbach on May 01, 2015, 03:07:44 PM
Because the episode was long, it took me 3 commutes to finish. And I cried on every. single. one of them.

I haven't read this story since I was a kid, so I forgot how powerful it was. Maybe more powerful now that I have an adult's perspective.

Anyway, what a difficult story to narrate. Coup de grâce by Dave on the reading. Someone remind me of this story next year during the Parsec nominations.
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: Varda on May 01, 2015, 05:07:12 PM
Because the episode was long, it took me 3 commutes to finish. And I cried on every. single. one of them.

I haven't read this story since I was a kid, so I forgot how powerful it was. Maybe more powerful now that I have an adult's perspective.

Anyway, what a difficult story to narrate. Coup de grâce by Dave on the reading. Someone remind me of this story next year during the Parsec nominations.

FYI, it's eligible for *this* year's Parsecs, if anyone felt like nominating (http://www.parsecawards.com/2015-parsec-awards/nominate-a-podcast/) before the period closes. For reasons I cannot explain, the nominations run from May to April instead of a calendar year. So yeah, if you think Dave deserves a nomination, now would be the time to put him forward. :)
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: shanehalbach on May 01, 2015, 08:50:30 PM
I must have done it right, it's already up on the site (http://www.parsecawards.com/2015-parsec-awards/nominees/).  ;D
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: benjaminjb on May 01, 2015, 09:21:06 PM
Very interesting to revisit a story I knew (like most people here) from school.

And, like everyone here noted, DKT's reading was really good.
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: tmaple on May 05, 2015, 02:36:26 AM
I remember this from high school,when it was done as a play.  Having seen my father through Alzheimer's, and wondering if it's in my future, I hear this story very differently now.
And, as others have said, the reading was outstanding.
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: Ariadnes-thread on May 06, 2015, 07:10:26 AM
Such a good story, and a masterful reading, too! Somehow I'd never read this story or the novel, and while I'd vaguely heard of it and knew that it had some major character with intellectual disabilities, I don't think I even knew that it was science fiction until it showed up on my podcast feed. Somehow I think I'd conflated it with the very very different novel Flowers in the Attic, weirdly enough. And I couldn't be more glad to be disabused of my vague conflations and assumptions in exchange for getting to listen to this fantastic story. As a relatively new SF reader, I'm always thrilled when Escape Pod introduces me to the classics of the genre!
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: GrnEgz on May 07, 2015, 11:13:20 PM
It's been a quarter century since I was last exposed to this story in my 8th grade English (Mrs Hall) class at Goddard Jr High and it's amazing at the similar deep visceral reaction I had both times. I had a similar reaction this time around as many others have already mentioned, the fear of a dementia state.

I've lost several loved ones (both people and pets) over the years and a few of them to dementia. Watching a once quick witted and vibrant person slowly slip into forgetfulness and frustration is just heart-wrenching to me. I love my brain and I love the pleasure I get from the act of learning, pondering, solving or discovering. A great fear of mine was borne out in this story, becoming handcuffed to a malfunctioning brain afflicted with any form of dementia; to be aware that this amazing ability I once had is beginning to no longer serve me. To forget where I am, where I came from, who my friends and love ones are or even who I am. To struggle to find memories or simple words. To have the ability to converse, discuss or exchange ideas slowly being taken away is a literal nightmare for me. I briefly did experience this while trying to find the right dose of a medication I'm taking and I was truly scared when word began to fail me.

This, I think, is what grabs me so deeply when I heard the story again. To have decades of memories and the fruits of education slip away uncontrollably and just barely beyond reach. So tantalizingly close, and yet forever far away; the modern day Tantalus.
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: George on May 12, 2015, 08:57:26 PM
I first read this story about six years ago in the anthology Science Fiction Hall of Fame Vol 1 and it has haunted me more than any other book or film or TV show I've read or seen since. 

This is in part because Charlie has to accept the bitterly cruel knowledge that he will, piece by piece, be forced to forfeit his mental acuity, his memory, his relationships, and his dignity. Truly, he is losing the sum of his identity, except his heart.  It may or may not be a poor comparison, but this story makes me very fearful of Alzheimer's disease, which seems to become closer to an inevitability as we enjoy longer lives. 

The second reason this story cuts so close to the bone for me is it puts me in mind of my sibling.  This person has suffered all their life with a learning disability, high anxiety, and morbid obesity brought on not by their diet, but by some other factor no doctor had been able to diagnose in decades of fruitless appointments.  This individual has been afforded none of the good fortune I have,  but like Charlie, they maintain a kindness and determination that belies more grit than most of us could ever summon.  This story makes me very ashamed I have never been able to improve my sibling's lot in life.

I almost didn't listen this week, knowing how  I would be affected, but I trusted it would be well treated by Escape Artists, and was not disappointed.  Thank you Alasdair and Dave.
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: The_Hol-Man on May 15, 2015, 06:32:04 PM
I don't have anything more to say than this story was just as amazing here as it was the first time I read it  so many years ago.  Thanks for bringing us this classic!

 -Andy
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: FrogNLotus on May 17, 2015, 12:15:21 AM
The thing I like about Escapepod and the other Escape Artist podcasts is that they connect me with current and past masterpieces in each genre.  Thank you!  I've been enjoying these since 2011 and my life is richer for it. 
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: Max e^{i pi} on May 20, 2015, 02:00:39 PM
Wow.
I was daunted by the length of this episode, and I'm glad I found the time to listen to it.
I think that the greatest indication of how good this episode (story plus reading) was, is how many people who don't post often came to say something about the episode. Not to mention all those people who joined specifically to comment on this thread.
Well done, Dave. And thank you to the Keyes family.
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: J.T. Evans on May 23, 2015, 04:32:13 AM
I almost crashed my car into the rear of another because it was hard to see through the tears I cried as Dave finished his narration. He captured the emotional highs and lows with absolute perfection, and the raw entry hit me hard. The final line was delivered with such a gut-wrenching finality that I decided it was best for me to pull over and continue my good cry before continuing on with my errands.
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: MooG on May 30, 2015, 03:52:12 PM
Finally got around to listening to this story and I thought I'd stop by to add to the praise for Dave Thompson's reading. I wondered how this would work as audio given how much the text plays a part in telling the story. In truth I think it's still better read than listened to but that's not to diminish the effectiveness of the reading.

I know some of the people who read stories sometimes read the comments; so I'd like to ask them if narrating what's generally regarded as a classic puts on extra pressure. After all if the podcast turns out rubbish it's difficult to blame the source material if everybody reckons it's brilliant.
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: matweller on June 02, 2015, 01:25:41 PM
Dave can answer this on his own, but I can say there was more discussion about the portrayal of this story than on almost any other I've seen in my 4-years-or-so here.

There was some added concern about doing justice to a classic. There was also a lot of concern about expressing the thoughts of a learning-disabled individual without being ham fisted or stereotypical, and as you said, a lot of Charlie's ability is expressed in the text in ways that don't necessarily translate to audio -- how do you convey awkward line spacing or misspellings that are phonetically correct?

It was a challenge, and I'm very proud of the result of Dave's careful consideration.
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: DKT on June 02, 2015, 02:56:52 PM
Wow, everyone. Thank you so much for the kind words on the narration. It was an honor and a privilege to read it, and I'm really grateful to Mat and Norm for asking me. I am really floored by all the love :)

I know some of the people who read stories sometimes read the comments; so I'd like to ask them if narrating what's generally regarded as a classic puts on extra pressure. After all if the podcast turns out rubbish it's difficult to blame the source material if everybody reckons it's brilliant.

Mat kind of touched on this, but I'll add.  I was a little concerned at messing up a classic, but I knew the story itself would still be around. I was much more concerned about playing Charlie in a way that was respectful. I didn't want to make him sound silly, and I knew in an audio performance, that would be a very easy mistake to make. It would be very easy for the story -- and specifically the narration -- to become problematic.

Thankfully, Mat was aware of that too, and so we discussed it at length via email, and I sent him some rough samples from different sections of the story, and then went ahead and recorded the whole thing. It was more of a collaborative experience than the stories I've narrated in the past (or requested narrations for), which I am really thankful for. And when it came time to record, it all went very smoothly. And I'm very gratified by the response it's received.
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: hardware on June 03, 2015, 08:30:46 AM
One of these titles that you constantly hear referenced, but I never got around to reading (not a staple in Swedish schools), so it was a privilege to get it served in this form. Thanks for educating me, Escape Pod. Other than that, like everyone here has said, great reading of an amazing story!
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: mb on June 05, 2015, 01:44:27 PM
absolutely AMAZING story
I so loved the way its language reflects the increase and subsequent degradation of intelligence
While I loved the general idea, I felt the worldbuilding was a bit off: this seemed to be official research, but whey don't they care for him? why is there no insuranced that supports him in the end? I understand what they author was trying to do, but in some cases I just felt 'now this is not realisitic at all, this just doesn't make sense'. But then again it is a short story, and maybe this was a way of compressing what was said to the important minimum...

on that note: I just realised that this was then turned into an actual much longer novel. I am not sure I'd be interested in that, though. I think this short story had the perfect lenght for this theme and style... I might have glance at the book just to see what is different.
Title: Re:
Post by: bounceswoosh on June 05, 2015, 09:05:54 PM
I would not assume that someone would get lifetime health insurance just because they were in a study. I hope I'm wrong about that.
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: Devoted135 on June 07, 2015, 09:21:31 PM
You also have to keep in mind this story's age, which very much plays into those aspects.

I distinctly remember reading this in my 7th grade English class and being really impacted by it. That was the class that helped me to understand and love poetry, and great classics like this one. Rikki Tikki Tavi, anyone? It was also the class in which I completely to failed to memorize all 50-ish prepositions in the English language, a task I felt was entirely arbitrary. ::)

I also have to continue the piling on of praise for Dave's narration. I could hear the misspellings and punctuation errors. And the descent of his IQ was heart-breaking all over again, even though I knew it was coming. Thanks so much for bringing us this episode!
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: Captain (none given) on June 30, 2015, 03:20:15 AM
This story in all its forms is furthermore banned for my life for the same reason that my father no longer associates with John Steinbeck's Of Mice and Men: I become non-functional due to emotional overload. This is especially a problem due to the fact that I'm usually driving as I listen to these podcasts. My oldest brother is mentally disabled and is the main reason that I'm set to go into the field of neurology and my father and I have trouble listening to stories where mentally disabled persons are abused, taken advantage of, or generally don't get the happy ending because we always think of my brother in those situations.

Classic story, I love it, but keep it away from me.
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: SilverSeadragon on July 29, 2015, 04:45:36 AM
I, like many others, read this story in high school. I found it a sad but enjoyable experience back then.
With the addition of years of life experience and this absolutely beautiful reading, this hit me hard. Alzheimer's runs in my family, and the end had me bawling. I had to explain to some very confused co-workers why my headphones made me cry!
I love the format of this story too. So much is said with so little.
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: jaxdracon on July 31, 2015, 09:14:30 PM
I liked this one so much, I listened to it again on a road trip with my kids. They were speechless the entire time. And didn't fight. The power of science fiction!

Way to go DKT.
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: Devoted135 on August 01, 2015, 01:50:29 AM
I liked this one so much, I listened to it again on a road trip with my kids. They were speechless the entire time. And didn't fight. The power of science fiction!

Way to go DKT.

That's a big win!
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: BoojumsRCool on August 08, 2015, 11:03:39 PM
The combination of the story and narrator was perfect! Many other voices would not have held me long enough to get hooked on a very good story.
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: adrianh on August 09, 2015, 08:01:06 AM
Can't really add anything to what everybody else has said. A classic story, one of my all time favourites, wonderfully read.

One particular sad point for me was that until I listened to the intro I had somehow missed that Keyes had died last year.

One interesting thing, since Alasdair mentioned Keyes time working in the comics industry, was that the idea for the story started as a comics pitch called "Brainstorm" that he didn't submit to Stan Lee since he thought it would work better in prose form.

(http://i.imgur.com/669n8OZ.png)

(from Algernon, Charlie, and I: A Writer's Journey By Daniel Keyes)
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: Sgarre1 on August 09, 2015, 01:50:47 PM
Ironic, because sometime in the 90s they did an "Algernon" pastiche with The Rhino.
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: stePH on August 10, 2015, 08:12:30 PM
I haven't subscribed for years, but I'm going to have to make this one a special download. I read the short version in high school (mid/late '80s), and the novel two or three years ago.
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: Moritz on August 17, 2015, 08:16:41 AM
Took me a while to listen to it, since I was still catching up on lots of older EP episodes -
I first read the novel 7 years ago at the local English book club (I'm in Germany) and thought it was amazing. I am glad that EP had the original short story, with such an excellent read.

I think we are still waiting for the glorious EP 500, but this one would have been worth to be number 500, too!
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: Maxilu on August 20, 2015, 08:29:30 PM
I've known this story since High School. I expected to cry.

I didn't expect I was going to cry that much.  Well done with the narration, Dave.
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: TheVoicesOfBrian on September 03, 2015, 07:49:50 PM
While I've been familiar with the tropes in the story, I'd never actually read Flowers for Algernon. Thanks EP for making me finally do it.

Damn that was tough to go through. As the dad of a aspergian kid and someone who does theater with folks with special needs, the first part was really powerful. Then the latter half hit the side of me that's watched family members succumb to Alzheimers.

So many emotions wrapped up in this one. Brilliant story and an excellent reading by Dave.
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: CryptoMe on July 28, 2016, 06:46:14 AM
I agree that the reading was awesome!

But I have never been a fan of this story. I first read the novel version a few years back because (IIRC) several people on this forum were raving about it in some thread or other. I wasn't impressed then, and I am not particulary impressed with the short story version now. The reason I feel this way is because the story is just all negative harshness with no hope given at any point. And, I really don't like the person Charlie becomes. For those who said he doesn't change, I disagree. In his most brilliant phase, he is quite a self-absorbed jerk. And I didn't like the implications that becoming smart makes you incapable of communicating your ideas to others. That's just a fallicy. IMHO, if you can't explain something to a non-specialist audience, then you don't understand it well enough yourself. 

Sorry to have such a different opinion from the rest.
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: matweller on July 28, 2016, 12:49:40 PM
I agree that the reading was awesome!

But I have never been a fan of this story. I first read the novel version a few years back because (IIRC) several people on this forum were raving about it in some thread or other. I wasn't impressed then, and I am not particulary impressed with the short story version now. The reason I feel this way is because the story is just all negative harshness with no hope given at any point. And, I really don't like the person Charlie becomes. For those who said he doesn't change, I disagree. In his most brilliant phase, he is quite a self-absorbed jerk. And I didn't like the implications that becoming smart makes you incapable of communicating your ideas to others. That's just a fallicy. IMHO, if you can't explain something to a non-specialist audience, then you don't understand it well enough yourself. 

Sorry to have such a different opinion from the rest.

It may be a difference of your demeanor versus mine, or that I'm older and come from a different time, but I've always thought this story was full of hopeful and cautionary messages for and on behalf of Charlie and everyone else in the story.


I could probably spend another 2 hours on this list, but I won't. The short version is that I've always treasured this story for it's many-layered messages and for how even the cautionary/negative themes have a positive absolute value as a result just because they were said
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: CryptoMe on July 30, 2016, 04:13:43 AM
I agree that the reading was awesome!

But I have never been a fan of this story. I first read the novel version a few years back because (IIRC) several people on this forum were raving about it in some thread or other. I wasn't impressed then, and I am not particulary impressed with the short story version now. The reason I feel this way is because the story is just all negative harshness with no hope given at any point. And, I really don't like the person Charlie becomes. For those who said he doesn't change, I disagree. In his most brilliant phase, he is quite a self-absorbed jerk. And I didn't like the implications that becoming smart makes you incapable of communicating your ideas to others. That's just a fallicy. IMHO, if you can't explain something to a non-specialist audience, then you don't understand it well enough yourself. 

Sorry to have such a different opinion from the rest.

It may be a difference of your demeanor versus mine, or that I'm older and come from a different time, but I've always thought this story was full of hopeful and cautionary messages for and on behalf of Charlie and everyone else in the story.

  • The fact that the "smartening" process has been created suggests hope for a population that has never had it.
  • The idea that the self important doctors in the story had their noses rubbed in the unintended consequences of their meddling is  a great theme that doesn't get taught enough these days.
  • The concept that intelligence (and by extension, other forms of "superiority" e.g. wealth, power, etc) is not directly proportional to happiness is a hopeful and important message to the common man audience if not the poor little rich kids.
  • The way he regresses to blissful ignorance is hopeful, but the fact that it makes him arguably worse than when he started is heartbreaking and therefore a caution to anybody who thinks they're advancing knowledge or technology or quality of life for the general population, that they may be buying that knowledge on credit at somebody/everybody else's expense -- a lesson that most of the current world leaders seem to need very badly.
  • The fact that it all ends the way it does is so much more true to life than a trite, happily ended, Disney product.

I could probably spend another 2 hours on this list, but I won't. The short version is that I've always treasured this story for it's many-layered messages and for how even the cautionary/negative themes have a positive absolute value as a result just because they were said

Interesting take, but I think we will have to agree to disagree.
My biggest problem with this story is that it presents all of these obvious "truths" as if it were revealing something that we didn't already know, but makes no effort in proposing possible solutions or ways of dealing with them. In my opinion, that makes this story trite and simplistic, like a young kid so full of themselves because they have discovered something they think is really big, but everyone else already knows.

But that's just me. Like I said. I think we'll have to agree to disagree.
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: TheArchivist on August 24, 2016, 01:16:41 PM
Pardon me for butting in but...
Interesting take, but I think we will have to agree to disagree.
  • smartening=hope is not consistent with your third point that intelligence is not directly proportional to happiness.
I don't think so. The hope implied, if matweller is saying what I think he is, is more general than mere happiness. The achievement of a temporary "cure" gives hope that a more stable (if less extreme) version may be achievable. It may not result in happiness for the intellectually challenged but it should allow them to function / fit in more completely in an ever-more-technological society. In doing so, it might also remove them from being targets of abuse, which would be a good thing for wider society regardless of whether the victims are even aware of the abuse. It's a hope for the fictional society, rather than our real lives, but at the time it was written the general feeling was that such things would become reality as science and technology advanced.

  • I would hope that <insert status of choice here> is unrelated to happiness is so self-evident that it doesn't need a story to point it out.
Really? Well, I suppose you do say you'd "hope", not "expect", but it seems to me that this is very far from self-evident to a LOT of people!

  • The lesson that there is always a price even if you aren't the one paying it should also be very obvious.
Again, look around and see how often "should be" resolves to "is".

  • I don't agree that the way things transpired in the story (not just the ending) were any more realistic that a trite Disney product.
Perhaps your life experience really is very different from mine, then.

My biggest problem with this story is that it presents all of these obvious "truths" as if it were revealing something that we didn't already know, but makes no effort in proposing possible solutions or ways of dealing with them. In my opinion, that makes this story trite and simplistic, like a young kid so full of themselves because they have discovered something they think is really big, but everyone else already knows.
Sir, if you require all your stories to provide viable solutions to the human condition then I fear you will dislike most of the field!  :P

But that's just me. Like I said. I think we'll have to agree to disagree.
And I trust you'll allow me to disagree, too ;)
Title: Re: EP490: Flowers for Algernon
Post by: CryptoMe on August 31, 2016, 05:55:49 AM
Pardon me for butting in but...

My biggest problem with this story is that it presents all of these obvious "truths" as if it were revealing something that we didn't already know, but makes no effort in proposing possible solutions or ways of dealing with them. In my opinion, that makes this story trite and simplistic, like a young kid so full of themselves because they have discovered something they think is really big, but everyone else already knows.
Sir, if you require all your stories to provide viable solutions to the human condition then I fear you will dislike most of the field!  :P

LOL! I am occassionally unsatisfied with fiction for this reason, but not as much as you would think. See, I don't really expect stories to provide viable solutions to the human condition, it's just that I expect more than "people suck". The last story I felt this way about was Lord of the Flies; it also presents what I consider obvious truths without adding anything new to the discussion, in my opinion. But you, and anyone else, is most certainly free to disagree.