...The place is full of jackasses because hello, internet....
Hey! I resemble that remark.
I mean resent...yeah. Resent.
Hee-haw!! No point in even trying to defend myself on that count!
... I'm sure many of you "free thinkers" would cheer if it was another story about how closed minded Christians are, and in the end they get shown up for the monsters they are by a gay robot. But let someone imply that lefties aren't always on the side of right, and you cry foul. Good SF is the SF that challenges your world view, no matter what that world view is.
It seems disingenuous to me to take so much joy in shouting the "liberals aren't as nice as they say they are" position, while apparently ignoring the fact that "conservatives" are often every bit as mean-spirited and bigoted as they want to be. .... But the fact of the matter is that the people you imply are part of some monolithic movement bent on taking away your liberties and freedoms tend to actually be individuals who are trying to do what they think is the right thing.
So, when people start sneering at "free thinkers", I object as strongly as I can.
Ok. I never said I was right with some mighty authority. Also, sure there are some people that are conservatives that are mean ol' jerks that would love nothing more then to kill blacks and gays. Happy? That's not me. But that does not mean there aren't some down right statist , fascist liberals who would love nothing more then to lock up all Christians and people who don't love the state. What I should have said in my post, but didn't is this: The problem here (or in the story) is government. If I was a horrible monster of a racist, I alone can't do much to people. It's when I have the support of the gov't that things get really bad. Why were things so awful in the Jim Crow south? Because people hated blacks? Well, some people still do. Things were bad because the actions those individuals took had either the tacit or explicit support of the local and state governments, and even the feds at some levels. Even when blacks rightfully tried to defend themselves against aggression they were further attacked by the gov't. (re: Dr. Ossian Sweet, admittedly in the North). Had these people been allowed to defend themselves, there would have been no need for the later excesses in the Civil Rights Acts. By excesses I mean the denying of private property rights to owners. As awful and racist as excluding a certain race of people from a store is, it should not be a crime. People should have the right to do what they like with their property. So something that seemed good and just, "letting" people shop and eat where they want, turned to tyranny when forced.
"Conservatives would on the whole be much happier if they could make everyone think just like them."
Sure. All conservatives bad, all liberals good. You've got the propaganda down pat. Well done.
My point is that the propaganda works both ways. For whatever it's worth, I'm decidedly NOT a "liberal"; I'd try to define that and explain why, but... well, I suspect you would simply keep altering the definition. After all, I wasn't calling you a racist (at least I didn't think I was), but then you made the "As awful and racist as excluding a certain race of people from a store is, it should not be a crime" remark. Now if I call you on that - because, after all, advocating that anyone should be able to use their private property as they see fit isn't racist - then I'm obviously just falling for the liberal propaganda, instead of sniffing and detecting bullshit with my own large, and capable schnozzola.
However, since 1994 I have been living in a country that is increasingly under the control of people who spout a lot of hatred and bile in the name of individual freedom, yet continuously
increase the size of the government, reduce the effectiveness of necessary institutions (necessary always being a concept up for debate, of course), and try to force their definition of morality on everybody else. Pardon my Anglo-German, but fuck that.
Maybe you see personal individual freedom to do whatever you like with your personal property as the holy grail, and maybe if we still had 50 square miles of space between every person and his private property, I'd tell you to go for it. But we don't. And I'm sorry, but if you think that suggesting that there should be limits to what you can do to me or anyone else with your private property makes me a fascist, then, yeah, we're going to disagree.
But that doesn't actually MAKE me a fascist, while advocating the use of private property to continue the abuses that were suffered by ALL non-whites prior to the Civil Rights Act does make one a racist.
EDIT: I posted this too quickly, and after reading back over it later, I decided I need to apologize to Kyle for the way I came across. While I was more than a little appalled by the rationale you used, Kyle, I think I understand the point you were trying to make. I still stand by the substance of what I said, but I don't want you to think I'm attacking you personally or trying to drive you out of the forum. I do like your hat.
