Author Topic: Attack on/Defence of Science split from EP141  (Read 19461 times)

Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #25 on: February 03, 2008, 05:34:22 AM
I have gone to the expense of briefly hiring a stenographer to dictate this post for me (since I am now a three-toed sloth and cannot type myself).

I did not say–nor did I intend to imply–that all or most scientists and experts are inept or charlatans.  I said a "not insignificant percentage" which was exactly what I meant.

FYI, the (female) gynecologist in question is notoriously incompetent.  I personally know several victims of this incompetence, including one couple who lost a baby because of it.  Before going to her, my wife did fairly extensive research into her symptoms and essentially presented a self-diagnosis.  "I have symptoms A, B, C, D and E, which are consistent with endometriosis, which is a disease that happens to run in my family."  The doctor said she was fine and sent her home.  Within a month after that, we were seeing a real expert who provided an accurate diagnosis and later performed surgery which corrected the problem.

If a person hangs the sign "doctor" over their door but lacks any competency in medicine, then I call that person a charlatan*.  My point is that we laymen should be skeptical and cautious of people who claim to be experts, because it is quite likely that you will meet more than one person in your lifetime who claims to be an expert but is not.  I see a lack of this healthy skepticism and caution in our society, where people blithely swallow whatever "experts" claim without thinking about it for themselves.

Now hopefully any further discussion of me can be done with an accurate understanding of my position.



*Oxford American Dictionary - Charlatan - a person falsely claiming to have special knowledge or skill; a fraud.  See note at "quack"
« Last Edit: February 03, 2008, 05:36:49 AM by Mr. Tweedy »

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swdragoon

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Reply #26 on: February 03, 2008, 07:08:27 AM
I am a expert and have been wrong in identifying important facts in the past. Thats what happens if your human sorry. That doesn't make me a Charlatan it make me fallible. Same as the scientist in the story. Who acted very much like every scientist and other person i know. People see what they want to see even the greatest judge, scientist, reporter. Has preconceived notions and place the pieces together as they Believe they go together.

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goatkeeper

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Reply #27 on: February 03, 2008, 07:23:31 AM

[/quote]

 His point wasn't "experts sometimes make mistakes" -- which I think we have all clearly agreed upon -- his point was that the behavior of the scientists in "The Color of a Brontosaurus" is how he imagines all scientists actually behave...



[/quote]
whoa- fiesty forum!
Actually I don't recall having read Tweedy say anything about "all scientists" and I'm surprised at how many people have pounced on him for this.
I also don't think Wikipedia is as crummy as everyone makes it out to be... *waits for tomatoes*



Alasdair5000

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Reply #28 on: February 03, 2008, 07:39:14 AM


 His point wasn't "experts sometimes make mistakes" -- which I think we have all clearly agreed upon -- his point was that the behavior of the scientists in "The Color of a Brontosaurus" is how he imagines all scientists actually behave...



[/quote]
whoa- fiesty forum!
Actually I don't recall having read Tweedy say anything about "all scientists" and I'm surprised at how many people have pounced on him for this.
I also don't think Wikipedia is as crummy as everyone makes it out to be... *waits for tomatoes*
[/quote]

   I'm utterly with Goatkeeper on that.  Wikipedia gets a lot of very, very bad press and whilst it is, inevitably a 'your mileage may very' site the sections I find myself using regularly (History, chunks of science, entertainment stuff in particular) range from solid to incredibly extensive.  There are problems, there were always going to be but they tend to last as long as it takes someone to notice and correct vandalism, or in some cases to assemble a group of writers to help correct the mistakes.  The perception of Wikipedia now, I suspect, is how the site actually was a couple of years ago.  It's not perfect but it's not the old west township that some chunks of the internet like to make it out as.



Simon

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Reply #29 on: February 03, 2008, 11:04:42 AM

whoa- fiesty forum!
Actually I don't recall having read Tweedy say anything about "all scientists" and I'm surprised at how many people have pounced on him for this.
I also don't think Wikipedia is as crummy as everyone makes it out to be... *waits for tomatoes*

Hmmm.. I think this comes down to a pretty justifiable, but nonetheless rude attitude of prior experience...  Mr Tweedy is proving something of a divisive figure in these parts, and I think this latest post is being read by many in the worst possible light.  Possibly unfair on this occasion, but I think the underlying tensions have been allowed to fester more than they should.

Thus rather than a criticism of individual posts, we get "Tweedy's posting style" mentioned...  Ah well.



eytanz

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Reply #30 on: February 03, 2008, 11:58:15 AM

whoa- fiesty forum!
Actually I don't recall having read Tweedy say anything about "all scientists" and I'm surprised at how many people have pounced on him for this.
I also don't think Wikipedia is as crummy as everyone makes it out to be... *waits for tomatoes*

Hmmm.. I think this comes down to a pretty justifiable, but nonetheless rude attitude of prior experience...  Mr Tweedy is proving something of a divisive figure in these parts, and I think this latest post is being read by many in the worst possible light.  Possibly unfair on this occasion, but I think the underlying tensions have been allowed to fester more than they should.

Well, as one of the people who was most involved in arguing this particular topic with Mr Tweedy, both in this thread and when it spilled for a bit into the "heaven" thread, I must say that my main motivation is that while I rarely agree with Mr Tweedy, I usually find him an enjoyable opponent in an argument.

For me the main debate was on whether or not the characters in "Bronotosaurus" were, to use Tweedy's words, an "Apt satire" of scientists. He never said, and has indeed denied, that this is how he thinks all scientists behave; but arguing that the story is apt satire, instead of an inept caricature (as I believe it to be), of scientists, is not an insignificant claim, and was well worth debating in my opinion.

Quote
Thus rather than a criticism of individual posts, we get "Tweedy's posting style" mentioned...  Ah well.

I'm afraid I was the person who introduced that phrase, but that was mostly because I was trying to gloss over that part of Thaurismunths's post while focusing on the disservice he (Thaurismunths) did to the people he was quoting.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2008, 02:49:29 PM by eytanz »



Kurt Faler

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Reply #31 on: February 03, 2008, 12:40:12 PM

If a person hangs the sign "doctor" over their door but lacks any competency in medicine, then I call that person a charlatan*.  My point is that we laymen should be skeptical and cautious of people who claim to be experts, because it is quite likely that you will meet more than one person in your lifetime who claims to be an expert but is not.  I see a lack of this healthy skepticism and caution in our society, where people blithely swallow whatever "experts" claim without thinking about it for themselves.

Now hopefully any further discussion of me can be done with an accurate understanding of my position.



*Oxford American Dictionary - Charlatan - a person falsely claiming to have special knowledge or skill; a fraud.  See note at "quack"



Quack - person who dishonestly claims to have special knowledge and skill in some field, typically in medicine.
Doctor - Qualified practitioner of medicine

So unless you are saying these people have NO medical degree from a recognized school or institution PICK UP YOUR DICTIONARY AGAIN.
Experts are experts not because they claim to be, but because an institution of higher learning bestowed upon them the title of PhD.
They have met the requirements set out by peers in the field to attain that title. What titles have these school bestowed upon you?

Moderator:  Kurt, that last bit was over the line and has been removed.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2008, 08:53:29 AM by Russell Nash »



Tango Alpha Delta

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Reply #32 on: February 03, 2008, 02:26:41 PM

Alright... just because I feel like a big, hairy Johnson now for being surly with a cute little sloth:

I concede that I am not a professional scientist and am not at all involved in work of the scientists I do know.  My perceptions of scientists comes almost completely from magazines, news stories and popular science books.  Consequently, it is possible that my perceptions are completely wrong and come entirely from shallow media coverage, badly-written books and disingenuous filmmakers.

That said, my perception of scientist is such that I find this story to offer an apt satire.

EDIT: No, actually I take that back.  I know that many "experts" are total charlatans.  Like the gynecologist who diagnosed my wife's endometriosis as psychosomatic.  Like the doctor who diagnosed some children I know as developmentally disable just because no one had ever taught them to read.  Like the psychiatrist who tells me friend that the solution to her depression is to take drugs and attend therapy rather than cease her self-destructive lifestyle.

I actually feel quite comfortable saying that a not insignificant percentage of people with impressive credentials are dishonest or incompetent, based on my experience with them even if on nothing else.


If a person hangs the sign "doctor" over their door but lacks any competency in medicine, then I call that person a charlatan*.  My point is that we laymen should be skeptical and cautious of people who claim to be experts, because it is quite likely that you will meet more than one person in your lifetime who claims to be an expert but is not.  I see a lack of this healthy skepticism and caution in our society, where people blithely swallow whatever "experts" claim without thinking about it for themselves.

Now hopefully any further discussion of me can be done with an accurate understanding of my position.

*Oxford American Dictionary - Charlatan - a person falsely claiming to have special knowledge or skill; a fraud.  See note at "quack"



What I see in our society is not a lack of healthy skepticism; what I see is general ignorance of facts due to apathy.  The General Population doesn't understand scientific method or basic logic, but instead tunes in to a favorite media outlet (on the level of Oprah, or the Today Show) for their information.  Most of the information gained that way comes straight from major corporations trying to boost sales, or improve an image, and when a "scientist" is cited, they are usually on the payroll of whatever company is trying to push their product via the "news".  (Me, I get my basic news from NPR, and when something sounds controversial or slanted, I check it out on the 'net with independent sources.  Usually, NPR news is factual and free of opinion... but naysayers point to the opinion programming to characterize the whole org as "slanted".)

A great example of an area with a lot of faulty "scientific" information due to corporate manipulation is the food industry.  There have been SO many nutrition fads based on so many conflicting studies (oat bran will save the universe! - remember that one?) that any expert in the field is suspect.  But what has happened because of that?  Now ALL scientists are suspect, and if people don't like what the actual science shows (not "proves", but indicates, mind you) rather than use logic or scientific method to test the evidence, they find examples of "bad scientists", paint the scientist in question as "suspect"... or as a charlatan... and dust their hands off, happy to have stayed blissful in the matter.

(The fact that this technique has been professionalized and institutionalized in American government over the last 7 years due to the appointment of business cronies rather than Real Experts is a source of my great frustration.  Apologies if that frustration has spilled over on anyone in our happy little forum.)

Me, I'm a big Word Guy (not to be confused with Word Girl, the vocabulary superhero).  I appreciate that words and their meanings can be used in a lot of amazing ways, and that we all try to leave wiggle room when we assert Great Truths, in case we made a mistake.  But in the examples above, Mr. Tweedy uses quantity words badly to make his point:


I know that many "experts" are total charlatans.   -  You don't say how many, but no matter how "many" you know, you do not have a statistically significant amount of personal knowledge.  This assertion, even if intended to introduce healthy skepticism, really just commits the sin of judging the whole body of scientific professionals by the handful of quacks that you know personally.  I was in the military for 7 years, and suffered a panoply of fools under the TriCare system; a lot of them were tired, overworked, and rarely saw the same patient twice before being rotated out to the field or to another unit.  I went in with a sinus infection once, and the Dr. came into the room with a can of nitrogen and said "Drop your drawers, we're going to freeze it off."  My healthy skepticism saved me there, and I pointed out his mistake.  BUT, despite my experiences and the big splash that Walter Reed made recently... I cannot make the claim that military doctors are charlatans.

a not insignificant percentage of people with impressive credentials are dishonest or incompetent, based on my experience with them even if on nothing else.  - a not insignificant percentage of PEOPLE are dishonest or incompetent; but you don't have a number to put on that perenctage, and you still base it on your statistically insignificant experience.

it is quite likely that you will meet more than one person in your lifetime who claims to be an expert but is not.   Just as dangerous is the person who repeatedly asserts "I'm no expert, but I know THIS TRUTH, and nothing you can say will convince me otherwise... even if you cite experts, because I've known charlatans and no longer trust anyone but me."  At least, that's what I have decided after meeting a statistically insignificant portion of the human population.  :)

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swdragoon

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Reply #33 on: February 03, 2008, 07:58:47 PM
To be corect I was an expert (I no longer hold that job) acording to the US govrement. An expert is a person with specal knolage of a sublect. Not every phd is an expert and not all experts hols a phd many are even without a degree at all. I know many may find this shocking but it is true.

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swdragoon

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Reply #34 on: February 03, 2008, 09:00:21 PM
Sorry to get off topic my point was that the facts can be used to prove whatever the you want to prove and even a phd can have an agenda

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Thaurismunths

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Reply #35 on: February 04, 2008, 03:45:34 AM
I'm afraid I was the person who introduced that phrase, but that was mostly because I was trying to gloss over that part of Thaurismunths's post while focusing on the disservice he (Thaurismunths) did to the people he was quoting.
I guess I'm missing something. What was the disservice?

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eytanz

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Reply #36 on: February 04, 2008, 10:41:07 AM
I'm afraid I was the person who introduced that phrase, but that was mostly because I was trying to gloss over that part of Thaurismunths's post while focusing on the disservice he (Thaurismunths) did to the people he was quoting.
I guess I'm missing something. What was the disservice?

You were taking the words "...you can never prove anything is true; you can only refute it." seriously out of context when you used them to describe your view of Mr. Tweedy - the quote has nothing to do with "[not trying] to 'prove' anything, or provide 'evidence'. Instead [refuting] or outright [rejecting] the evidence of others and demands/provokes others to prove it".