Immortality - Who Wants to Live Forever?

[Mr. Tweedy]

   You're right there.  Just because people have limited time doesn't seem to motivate them to make good choices, does it?  "I could die tomorrow: Better pack as much thoughtless petty selfishness into this day as possible!"

Your idea about the terrible 2s lasting 2000 years backs up what I'm saying about immortals needing a non-human psychology.  A human who spends more than a few years in the terrible 2s is labeled "retarded" or "handicapped."  A race that considers such behavior normal has diverged quite a ways from human thinking.

I think concern for the future would be tied to the definition of "immortal."  Tolkien's elves would have a natural concern for the future because, although they do not age, they will die if their environment becomes too hostile.  They still have to do things in order to survive.  A being that was truly immune to death, though, would not have such concerns.

[slic]

Before jumping in with my ideas, I'd thought I'd mention Gulliver's Travels - there being immortal was something of a curse because you never die, but you did continue to age.  You ended up a decrepit lump - very scary.

I side strongly with Anacky on the joy of being alive. There are many stories of long-lived "shepards" of families where an immortal keeps tabs and helps out.  I'm also thinking "Requiem for Methuselah" from Star Trek.  Imagine continuing your passion for painting or composing or writing.  Though the distraction of procrastination might make it hard to actually get any of it done

So to pull it back more to Raygunray's original posting; have a strong bond with your family - they'll take care of you, and give you something to live for.  Even if you remain "static", you would find purpose in that.

I have a story-in-progress (aren't they all) where immortality leads to two societies - Gears and Tanners.  Essentially Gears (corruption of engineer) want to accomplish something with their lives and Tanners (from going to the beach and get a tan) are happy enough to live their lives in pleasurable pursuits.

Before the discussion gets into the nitty gritty, the definition of how you are immortal is important.  Being aware at an early age will have a serious impact on how you think.  Long term planning of elves only looks that way to us - same as a Mayfly thinks we are long lived. And technically vampires are not immortal, they can die.  Vampires just don't age, sort of.  Some literature explains that they "purify" as time goes on and change, but I see them more like trees than true immortals.

[ClintMemo]

I think you need to actually be 10 and 30 in order to appreciate bike-riding from those perspectives. 

I've seen eight year olds act like adults and adults act like eight year olds, so I tend to disagree.

That's totally tangent to my (and Anarkey's?) point.  Sure lots of adults aren't mature and lots of kids are, but we're talking about individual life-lines.  An individual will not be the same when they are 8 as when they are an adult.

My point is that physical age does not always correspond to maturity.  My late father-in-law was about as mature as a stereotypical American teenage boy. (I don't want to go into details - just apply all the negative stereotypes to a 65 year-old man and you get the picture.).
Yes, at 65, he was physically different than he was at 15, but mentally? not so much.

I think (speculatively) that mental development is linked to aging.  When we are children we say "I am a child" and others say "you are a child" and that shapes our experience.  When we have kids we say "I am a parent."  Etc.  Our place in the progression of life shapes the way we think of the present.

Also, the idea of legacy is huge in human thought.  All but the very shallowest people are concerned with how they will be remembered after death and how their actions while living will effect the future.  The fact that we could die at any time serves to remind us to live well in this moment, and the fact that we only get a certain amount of time deeply effects our planning and prioritizing.

A person who was immortal would be divorced from these progressions.  "I am a child" or "I am a parent" or "I am an elder" would mean nothing to them, and there would be no concern for legacy.

Getting caught up in "Legacies" can also be hugely destructive.  That's what most real world evil dictators do. 
And are we talking about "never growing old" or "cannot die"?  They would have completely different effects on a person.  I could see a person who cannot die being apathetic about everything whereas a person who merely never ages might become obsessed with their own personal safety.

[ClintMemo]

I don't see maturity being tied to physical age that closely. Much of it results from personal experience and inner reflection. I think if we had a race of beings who aged more slowly to physical adulthood, it would introduce a lot of problems compared to our current society. Imagine beings that were physically nine but mentally forty.

I would suspect that if we ever did achieve immortality, it would be through replacement parts - when an organ goes bad, you can replace it with a spare.  If you could include skin in that, then you might appear not to age, but it would only be an illusion.  However, until you can stop the brain from deteriorating, I suspect that the best you can do is put off death for a few more decades.


I agree that having immortality would be intolerable without some kind of purpose.  It is not uncommon now for elderly people to kill themselves when they feel they no longer have any reason to live.

[ClintMemo]

I have a story-in-progress (aren't they all) ...

I have a story that I finished, but have never submitted anywhere, about a world with a handful of people who stop aging.  One of the central plot elements has to do with combating boredom.  I've been reading this thread with some interest to see how many ideas run parallel with (or contradict) what is in my story.

Ok, show of hands.
How many people have either written or thought up a story surrounding an immortal character?

[Mr. Tweedy]

I have.  As I mentioned before, my immortals are bad guys and heroes are mortal by choice.

[Heradel]

Which just makes me think that the bad guys would be better off getting some DVD box sets, a nice TV and then take the slow boat to Alpha Centauri and back.

[Thaurismunths]

You're assuming an immortal human is still human.

Right, we got side-tracked pretty early and pretty hard.

Back to the original derail: It doesn't matter if immortal humans are immortal or not, they're trying to survive on earth and it is populated with humans.

I think the originating question is how you would survive/pass the years, not what constitutes being an immortal.

[Russell Nash]

I think I'd just live my life.  When the government guy showed up to ask how I could be 150, I'd just tell him someone must have hacked his computer and messed with his data.  "No, it's OK you can keep the social security check."

[ClintMemo]

I think a lot of "how would you survive?" is based on how common immortality is.  Vampires and the like have to hide but if immortality is achieved by some medical breakthrough, then you wouldn't need to hide. Anyone with the cash could become immortal.  I suspect that if that happens, then retirement would become a financial impossibility for most people.  In a word with few immortals, someone could work for 50 years and then spend eternity living off the interest.   But if immortals were common, you could never reach a point where most of the population was retired.  An economy could not sustain that.  The amount of wealth you would have to accumulate would get forever larger until it became almost unachievable.

[Listener]

I have.  As I mentioned before, my immortals are bad guys and heroes are mortal by choice.

An immortal hero who couldn't be killed in any way shape or form would be boring.  The reason Highlander works is because MacLeod can die.  Vampires can be protagonists because they can be killed by the sun or silver or stakes through the heart.  But if Indiana Jones was immortal, what would the point be?  There'd be no real danger to him.

[Russell Nash]

I have.  As I mentioned before, my immortals are bad guys and heroes are mortal by choice.

An immortal hero who couldn't be killed in any way shape or form would be boring.  The reason Highlander works is because MacLeod can die.  Vampires can be protagonists because they can be killed by the sun or silver or stakes through the heart.  But if Indiana Jones was immortal, what would the point be?  There'd be no real danger to him.

Indiana Jones isn't immortal???!!??  He did go 1000 miles underwater on the outside of a U-Boat.

[Thaurismunths]

I think I'd just live my life.  When the government guy showed up to ask how I could be 150, I'd just tell him someone must have hacked his computer and messed with his data.  "No, it's OK you can keep the social security check."

Right on.
I'd do the opposite of "Mayfly". I'd keep a low profile, and switch countries every few years.
People go missing all the time, and the world is full of undocumented people.
As for the day-to-day, I'd get a job in something like technology, where young people with a lot of skill is normal, and it isn't so difficult to get a job.

If I wanted to be the rich immortal, I'd set up corporations that funnel money in to my various personas around the world. If I'm in Spain, I'm one guy. If I'm in India, I'm another. They could all make donations to a religious foundation. That foundation would pool the money and invest it. The money made off of that would go to pay for my mansions ("temples") around the world.

[Mr. Tweedy]

That sounds way to well-planned to have just come of the top of your head.  Just how do you know so much about this topic?  Are you hiding something?

[Thaurismunths]

That sounds way to well-planned to have just come of the top of your head.  Just how do you know so much about this topic?  Are you hiding something?

Lets just say 'I've been around.'

[clichekiller]

The way I figure I'd love to live forever; if I ever should become utterly bored with life I'm sure I can find a way out. 

[Roney]

I think a lot of "how would you survive?" is based on how common immortality is.  Vampires and the like have to hide but if immortality is achieved by some medical breakthrough, then you wouldn't need to hide.

Oooh!  Love the idea.  It may be a commonplace but I haven't seen it before.  Sadly, I can't see how it could sustain a story on its own but it would make a lovely background detail: the freaky immortal who's become accustomed to moving between communities can finally settle down when humans crack the problem.  Would they be helping us in our research?

[ClintMemo]

I think a lot of "how would you survive?" is based on how common immortality is.  Vampires and the like have to hide but if immortality is achieved by some medical breakthrough, then you wouldn't need to hide.

Oooh!  Love the idea.  It may be a commonplace but I haven't seen it before.  Sadly, I can't see how it could sustain a story on its own but it would make a lovely background detail: the freaky immortal who's become accustomed to moving between communities can finally settle down when humans crack the problem.  Would they be helping us in our research?

Assuming immortality were achievable through some type of procedure, it would almost certainly be very expensive, at least at first.  Immortality would be worth more the more rare that it is.  At least some current immortals would work very hard to keep others from becoming immortal because it would dilute the relative value of their immortality. Feed that to your inner conspiracy theorist and plots abound.

[Mr. Tweedy]

Does anybody listen to The Classic Tales podcast?  The most recent story was "The Mortal Immortal" by Marry Shelly.  I thought it was good (better than Frankenstein, certainly), and it presents what I think is the realistic view of this subject.

Just a heads-up.

_{Geez, she was 19 when she wrote Frankenstein?  I need to get busy.}

[Swamp]

Does anybody listen to The Classic Tales podcast? 

Thanks Mr. Tweedy for pointing me to another great fiction podcast.  Great classics!   Here's the link if anybody else is interested.

[Zathras]

Cool topic and discussion.  I recently read a book called "The First Immortal" by James Halperin.  I thought the book was good, not great but it held my attention.  It is about the first man to be cryonically suspended in the 80's and wakes up in 2072. The book address the science of cryonics, the ethical debate of the science, the money / investment issue and family issues.  The vision of the future is a bit overly optimistic, IMO.  Truth machines (the subject of another of his books) make crime not pay and nanotechnology solves many health problems.  Not a bad read if you are really in to the subject, although it was written in 1998 so some "future" happenings are a bit dated.