The Hybrid Car Thread (split from EP088 comments)

[Jonathan C. Gillespie]

Oh yeah. I take the subway to work, the train on vacation, and my kids to the doctor's in a stroller. All of which are faster, safer, cheaper, and more enviromental. The car(yes I do have one) gets less than 4000 miles a year. Last point, I pay over six dollars a gallon and I don't care because I only fill up once every four to six weeks. The huge gas tax is used to buy open land and put it under protection from developement.

That's great for you, but what about those of us who live in cities that don't have adequate mass-transit?  I live down here in Atlanta, and I can tell you, you'd be driving everywhere.  I'd love to be able to emulate your driving habits, but it's just not possible.

[SFEley]

This is truth, what JC said about Atlanta.  Although a counterpoint may be that many of us who live here, CHOSE to live here.  And the city has little incentive to change its transport problems if we're all going to keep living here anyway (and buying gas).

It's a complex issue.  In my defense, at least I drive a Prius.  >8->

[Russell Nash]

In my defense, at least I drive a Prius.  >8->

I love the Prius. The first time I saw one in person it was a
two meters behind me. I only knew it was there, because tire tires made a little crunching sound on some of the sand on the road.

Quick question. If the brakes on the Prius are electrical generators, why can you see brake rotors when you look through the wheel covers?

[jrderego]

In my defense, at least I drive a Prius.  >8->

I love the Prius. The first time I saw one in person it was a
two meters behind me. I only knew it was there, because tire tires made a little crunching sound on some of the sand on the road.

Quick question. If the brakes on the Prius are electrical generators, why can you see brake rotors when you look through the wheel covers?

Electrical generators won't stop the car. The Prius still needs traditional brakes for that.

[Russell Nash]

In my defense, at least I drive a Prius.  >8->

I love the Prius. The first time I saw one in person it was a
two meters behind me. I only knew it was there, because tire tires made a little crunching sound on some of the sand on the road.

Quick question. If the brakes on the Prius are electrical generators, why can you see brake rotors when you look through the wheel covers?

Electrical generators won't stop the car. The Prius still needs traditional brakes for that.

The generators supply the resistance to reduce the speed from highway speeds. When does it need the traditional brakes? Is this just for emergency braking or just the final couple MPH or to keep it from rolling when you're at a light?

[SFEley]

Quick question. If the brakes on the Prius are electrical generators, why can you see brake rotors when you look through the wheel covers?

The regenerative braking is somewhat effective for slowing and stopping, but not completely effective.  In typical driving, the generator (which is really just one of the hybrid motors running backwards) and the ordinary brakes work in tandem: press down the brake pedal a little bit, and you're regenerating; push it down harder and the brakes kick in on top of that.

One side effect of this is that brake wear on a hybrid car is usually very light.  We had a Honda Insight before the Prius.  When Anna got pregnant we sold it to some friends.  That was at 90,000 miles.  The tech doing our final inspection-and-maintenance said that the brake pads (which were the original ones) were still in excellent shape and that it would probably be tens of thousands of miles before they needed replacing.

[Jonathan C. Gillespie]

One of the advantages of a hybrid powertrain is the electrical engine's torque is instantly available.  There's no power curve like in a gasoline engine.  GM tested hybrid-equipped trucks versus traditional trucks, and the hybrids were a few seconds quicker and better towers.

The problem is that, in contrast to smaller vehicles, the trucks burned through the brake systems much quicker.  This has slowed GM's implementation somewhat.

Jeffrey -- I remember "The Wave!".  Should be required watching in schools.

Strength through unity!  Strength through action!

[SFEley]

The problem is that, in contrast to smaller vehicles, the trucks burned through the brake systems much quicker.  This has slowed GM's implementation somewhat.

That has got to be either bad design or some quirk of the usage pattern.  Can you explain why that happened?  Because I'm trying to think about it and have no idea what the problem would be.

Of course, given GM's first experiment with a "hybrid" truck, the Silverado that didn't even have a hybrid motor in the powertrain (it was only used for idle stopping and to put a few 120 volt outlets in the truck bed for power tools), I have to suspect that they aren't really putting much effort into it regardless.  

The American automakers are going to suffer terribly in a few years as the bottom drops out of the SUV market, and while I feel for the workers who'll be hurt by it most, there's a part of me that also wants to say "We, America, brought this on ourselves by being assholes."

[Jonathan C. Gillespie]

Stephen, as I understand it the problem was mass and weight of the trucks.  Keep in mind, there's a lot more to stopping a Sierra than a Prius.

I have zero sympathy for the American Auto makers.  They've always played reactionary as opposed to proactionary.  You'd think they would have learned the perils of relying on low gas prices before -- they'd been through this with the shift to tiny imports during the fuel crisis of the 70's -- so it's not like the writing wasn't on the wall.  They've also heavily unionized themselves which, despite folks' feeling on that issue, does limit a company's ability to compete.  You cannot survive in the global economy with such a lackluster approach to business.

Hopefully this shake-down will produce leaner, stronger American nameplates. 

[Maximus-Primus]

 That was at 90,000 miles.  The tech doing our final inspection-and-maintenance said that the brake pads (which were the original ones) were still in excellent shape and that it would probably be tens of thousands of miles before they needed replacing.

[/quote]

I am getting way off topic here, sorry Pod Man. Did you ever figure a cost / mile ratio on your car? How much per mile or month year it cost to run it? Not including the cost of the car? Sorry to be so forward, I just haven't known any one who has driven one for so many miles, and I am very curious. Some friends of mine at work are talking about converting old cars into battery vehicles to drive back and forth to work.

[Ryuujin]

Meh, I so want a hybrid car. They're so sweet, especially Lexus' new one.

I'm really digging that one, especially because it's as accessorible as it is. Have you seen those specs of what you are able to add without using amplifiers for the power, and stuff. Seriously, that's some sweet accessorizing you are able to do.

[SFEley]

I am getting way off topic here, sorry Pod Man. Did you ever figure a cost / mile ratio on your car? How much per mile or month year it cost to run it? Not including the cost of the car?

No, I haven't run that math specifically, but I can tell you that we're averaging about 48 miles per gallon, and that the oil changes and scheduled maintenance (every 5,000 miles) cost the same as any other car's oil change.  There haven't been any other service costs.  So if you don't include the cost of the car, we should be staying ahead of the curve with the lower fuel consumption. 

[Russell Nash]

I am getting way off topic here, sorry Pod Man. Did you ever figure a cost / mile ratio on your car? How much per mile or month year it cost to run it? Not including the cost of the car?

No, I haven't run that math specifically, but I can tell you that we're averaging about 48 miles per gallon, and that the oil changes and scheduled maintenance (every 5,000 miles) cost the same as any other car's oil change.  There haven't been any other service costs.  So if you don't include the cost of the car, we should be staying ahead of the curve with the lower fuel consumption. 

There's also the savings on the brakes.

[Godot]

Veering off of the subject (only slightly though).  There are other alternatives.  Not only hybrids are better for the environment.  In my country (Colombia) the most common eco-friendly option is to convert your car to run on compressed natural gas. 

I own a 1994 Nissan Pathfinder and I've converted it to run on CNG, not only are the fuel savings insane (I'm now paying a third of what I used to in fuel.  and, if I veer off far from somewhere where I can't get gas, my car can still run perfectly on traditional gasoline.

Environmentally, my car now has very very low emmisions.  Just by having the CNG conversion I am exempt from having a yearly emmisions check.  On th other hand, I do have to get a yearly check-up to check the tank, fuel lines and such, and get re-certified to run on CNG for another year.  If I fail to get the yearly check-up, the gas stations won't dispense gas.

Hybrids are nice and all, but hideously expensive, import tariffs on vehicles here is horrible, and we don't get nice tax deductions or other bonuses for buying one.

And, what about biodiesel?  I've heard/read somewhere that the most fuel efficient car in the US market isn't the Prius, rather a VW Jetta Diesel.

[Russell Nash]

The Prius and other hybrids are just the start. They're to show that there are options. If you try to sell a CNG car in the states, everyone says that you can't fill it up anywhere. If you talk about an electric car, people say it takes to long to charge and what happens if you're further away from home.

The hybrids really show us two things. The first is that a car can have two propulsion (for lack of a better word) sources. The second is that you can reclaim energy by stopping the car using generators.

A Hybrid could be bio-diesel, CNG, hydrogen, it doesn't matter. In 20 years you won't be able to buy a vehicle that doesn't have regenerative braking.

The system that would be the best will be the hardest to get on the market. Anybody can make hydrogen. I could set up a hydrogen station in less a week after the delivery of the systems. A windmill, a "water splitter", a storage tank, and a pumping system. This is what really scares big oil and why they use their political power against it.

There are already systems for houses (still in development and extremely expensive right now) where the house is run on a windmill or solar panels. The extra electricity isn't wasted or sent back to the grid, but is instead used to make hydrogen. The hydrogen is then used to make electricty when the windmill doesn't provide enough electricity for the house and fuels the hydrogen car which has regenerative braking.

On top of all of that it's carbon free.

[Heradel]

This is truth, what JC said about Atlanta.

At least it's not Houston, which has decided to build an 18-lane highway rather than put in a light commuter rail system like most other cities.

I'm in a weird place in this conversation, because I've never driven. I've lived in two cities whose public transportation was good enough that I didn't have to (DC, NYC). So I've grown up using the Metro in DC and that bus system, and upon moving to NYC I just had to get used to getting a 30-day Metrocard and re-learning that it's called the Subway, even though the cards are still Metrocards.

[ClintMemo]

I live in the suburbs of Louisville, KY.  Louisville has a pretty good system of buses, or so I've been told, but there is simply no way to get from my home to where I work by bus.  I like my job and I'm not moving, so driving is my only option.  I drive a nice 10 year old car that is long paid for but only gets about 22 mpg.  I have been thinking about getting a new car that gets much better mileage, but in doing the math I found out that, at $3/gallon and with a Pruis, it would take about 8 years to recoup the cost just in gas.  I have two close friends that have them and they both absolutely love them.

I read recently that GM is developing a gas assisted plug in hybrid that has a battery only range that would get me back and forth to work without ever having to burn gas at all. IIRC, you can recharge it in about 4 hours.  If the charge runs low while you are driving it, it starts the motor to recharge the battery. That gives it an effective range of about 600 miles.

[Russell Nash]

I live in the suburbs of Louisville, KY.  Louisville has a pretty good system of buses, or so I've been told, but there is simply no way to get from my home to where I work by bus.  I like my job and I'm not moving, so driving is my only option.  I drive a nice 10 year old car that is long paid for but only gets about 22 mpg.  I have been thinking about getting a new car that gets much better mileage, but in doing the math I found out that, at $3/gallon and with a Pruis, it would take about 8 years to recoup the cost just in gas.  I have two close friends that have them and they both absolutely love them.

I read recently that GM is developing a gas assisted plug in hybrid that has a battery only range that would get me back and forth to work without ever having to burn gas at all. IIRC, you can recharge it in about 4 hours.  If the charge runs low while you are driving it, it starts the motor to recharge the battery. That gives it an effective range of about 600 miles.

As long as the gas prices peak every so often, the innovation will continue and we'll be totally amazed at what becomes possible.

Heard a quote from the Presiident of Honda USA. He said that Honda could have easily increased their average fuel economy 1.5% a year for the last 20 years, but the customers in the US didn't want it. So there is a lot that can be done in the short term.

(Ex. from Honda was based on 28 mpg in 1986. At 1.5%/yr for 20 years that's 38 mpg coporate average)

[SFEley]

I live in the suburbs of Louisville, KY.  Louisville has a pretty good system of buses, or so I've been told, but there is simply no way to get from my home to where I work by bus.  I like my job and I'm not moving, so driving is my only option.  I drive a nice 10 year old car that is long paid for but only gets about 22 mpg.  I have been thinking about getting a new car that gets much better mileage, but in doing the math I found out that, at $3/gallon and with a Pruis, it would take about 8 years to recoup the cost just in gas.  I have two close friends that have them and they both absolutely love them.

Yeah, you know, that's something that always bugs me when people do reviews of hybrid cars.  "It costs three thousand more than that other car you might buy, and it'll take you X years to make up the difference in gas.  So you'd have to be a math-challenged idiot to buy a hybrid."  (They usually forget about the tax deduction, but that's a side point.)

People never do this analysis with the features of other cars.  "The Porsche 911 costs $40,000 more than the Honda Accord; it'll take 22 years to make up that difference cruising for chicks."  "The Hummer H2 costs $15,000 more than the Chevy Tahoe; it'll take 3 months to have enough middle fingers extended in your direction to make up the difference."

People buy hybrid cars first and foremost because they're good cars.  I consider my Prius the perfect midsize car: it's very roomy on the inside, it has a hatchback so it'll hold a surprising amount of stuff, but it fits into any parking space I need it to.  It has very cool tech features that appeal to my geek side: the keyless entry and ignition (the RFID chip on the key means I just need to have it in my pocket, and the doors unlock when I touch them and the car starts up when I hit the power button), the GPS system, the Bluetooth speakerphone, the set-the-temperature-and-forget-it climate control, the autodimming rear-view mirror.  These are all available in more expensive cars, but the Prius was the first car to have them for $25K.  Maneuverability is excellent, acceleration is good with great pickup from a stop, and the drive is quiet and comfortable.

And just focusing on the gas mileage is ignoring the environmental effect.  The Prius is a SULEV (super ultra-low emission) certified vehicle.  It's not the only one on the market right now, but it was one of the first and it's still one of the cleanest.  I also love the fact that at a stop, and at low speeds, the engine is completely off, so gas consumption and pollution are zero.  I'm not reaping immediate financial benefits for having a clean car, but it makes me feel better about driving.

And yes, all that and I save gas too.  I'm fairly certain that within the lifetime of my car, we'll be saying "Remember when gas was only $3 a gallon?"  So your calculations are...somewhat optimistic, perhaps.  (And to a certain extent I'm okay with that.  I'm actually of the opinion that gas in the United States has been too cheap for our own good.  This is not an opinion that makes me many friends.)

Anyway.  That's my own response to the number-crunching.  Anna and I bought a Prius because we needed a new car right then -- to replace a hybrid Honda Insight, when Anna got pregnant -- and our research took us to the conclusion that the Prius was the best car for our needs, wants, and budget.  The gas savings were only a part of the equation.  The whole picture was what drove us to the Prius.

BTW, I'm not an absolute hybrid zealot.  A few months after that, when my old Saturn died, we didn't have the budget for a hybrid, so we bought a Mazda 3.  Still a great little car, with good mileage, and much cheaper than the Prius.  We also don't drive it nearly as much. 

You have to do your own math.  And I would also say that if you have a good car that's already paid for, even if it's low mileage, it's a very valid decision to keep it.  Gas isn't the only cost with a new car, and there's also an environmental cost in manufacturing a car (hybrid or not) that you can never really recover, only mitigate by driving it as long as possible.

[ClintMemo]

I live in the suburbs of Louisville, KY.  Louisville has a pretty good system of buses, or so I've been told, but there is simply no way to get from my home to where I work by bus.  I like my job and I'm not moving, so driving is my only option.  I drive a nice 10 year old car that is long paid for but only gets about 22 mpg.  I have been thinking about getting a new car that gets much better mileage, but in doing the math I found out that, at $3/gallon and with a Pruis, it would take about 8 years to recoup the cost just in gas.  I have two close friends that have them and they both absolutely love them.

Yeah, you know, that's something that always bugs me when people do reviews of hybrid cars.  "It costs three thousand more than that other car you might buy, and it'll take you X years to make up the difference in gas.  So you'd have to be a math-challenged idiot to buy a hybrid."  (They usually forget about the tax deduction, but that's a side point.)

(lot's of stuff clipped out)

You have to do your own math.  And I would also say that if you have a good car that's already paid for, even if it's low mileage, it's a very valid decision to keep it.  Gas isn't the only cost with a new car, and there's also an environmental cost in manufacturing a car (hybrid or not) that you can never really recover, only mitigate by driving it as long as possible.

For me the question was "at $3/gal, should I get rid of my current car that runs perfectly and get a new one instead that gets way better mileage?"  The most economical choice to get a Prius, but with an 8 year payback, the answer was still "no."  Now, if my car dies on the way home from work?  That's a different question entirely.  I've already decided that I am going to buy either a Prius or a Honda Fit. Right now, I'm leaning towards the Prius. I rode in one a friend of mine had and I was surprised at just how nice a car it was (I don't hear that aspect being played up very much). As far as the price of gas goes, when the price of gas went to $3, I told everyone that by the end of the year, it would be $4.  So naturally, it went to $2. (We actually had regular unleaded at $1.88 a couple of weeks ago).

I think $5/gal gas would be a good dose of "tough love" that this country really needs.

[SFEley]

For me the question was "at $3/gal, should I get rid of my current car that runs perfectly and get a new one instead that gets way better mileage?"  The most economical choice to get a Prius, but with an 8 year payback, the answer was still "no."  Now, if my car dies on the way home from work?  That's a different question entirely.

That makes total sense.  I know people who are still driving 25-year-old Civics and having no problems.  If you can still use the car you have, and it's not eating you up in maintenance costs (that's why I got rid of my Saturn), buying a new one is often more vanity than practicality, regardless of gas costs. 

Besides, this way, when you do get around to really needing a new car, it's just going to have cooler features and be even more efficient.  >8->

I've already decided that I am going to buy either a Prius or a Honda Fit. Right now, I'm leaning towards the Prius. I rode in one a friend of mine had and I was surprised at just how nice a car it was (I don't hear that aspect being played up very much).

Yeah.  That's why I play it up.  >8->

I'm happy that Toyota's finally selling the hybrid Camry, but between the two I'd still pick the Prius again if I had to buy another car.  I've driven Camrys before and they're very comfortable, very smooth, and very nondescript.  The Prius is cool.  You can't look at it inside or out and not know that this car is something different.  That doesn't appeal to everyone, but it appeals to me.

[Russell Nash]

I'm actually of the opinion that gas in the United States has been too cheap for our own good.  This is not an opinion that makes me many friends.)

That same opinion has made me some enemies. I pay $6/gal and I'm fine with it.

[dokein]

When there's a plug-in hybrid 4-door hatchback with long-term ownership costs less than comparable non-hybrids, and my current vehicle needs replacing, I'll be the first in line.

By the way, mass transit alternatives also suck here in Hampton Roads.  I live 6 miles from work.  The 30-40 minute drive would take two hours and two transfers by bus.  The ferry doesn't run early or often enough to get me to work on time, and although Norfolk finally got a light rail grant, the planned route stops at the city line and doesn't cross the river.

I bike occasionally, but it's ten miles to go around the tunnel, usually in darkness both ways through shady neighborhoods on some dangerous roads.  And while there are showers at work they are in a building a quarter mile from my office, and there are no lockers available.

[SFEley]

When there's a plug-in hybrid 4-door hatchback with long-term ownership costs less than comparable non-hybrids, and my current vehicle needs replacing, I'll be the first in line.

I don't think the long-term ownership costs for my Prius are higher than those of a comparable midsize.  The initial cost was a couple thousand higher, but that was largely offset by the tax credit, and I see some of it as simply paying for all the cool gadgets in the car.  >8-> 

Oil changes, etc., cost the same as any other Toyota and are on the same 5,000 mile schedule.  There are no extraordinary maintenance costs.  In fact it may be marginally cheaper because the breaks don't wear out as fast.

(A couple years back there was a lot of auto journalism FUD about "You'll have to pay thousands to replace the battery when it wears out!" -- but that hasn't been holding up in practice for Prius owners, first gen or second gen.  It was true for the Honda Insight I used to own, which started getting really flaky around 90,000 miles, but Honda replaced the battery at their own cost so it didn't actually cost me anything.)

[dokein]

Yeah, I was surprised to learn last year that Intellichoice picked Prius as having the lowest ownership cost in its class.  Granted, part of that is because of their unusually low depreciation, which may return to a more reasonable level as they become a bit more commonplace, or if something more efficient and/or tendy comes along.  But Prius is the only hybrid to top it's class, and no one makes a hybrid hatchback or wagon yet.  There's a chance that plug-ins will catch on, but since it looks like GM is going to be the company to pioneer that field, I'm not holding my breath.