Author Topic: personal archetypes  (Read 6619 times)

Listener

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on: December 18, 2007, 02:25:46 PM
I find that, lately, my writing keeps calling back to what, for lack of a better term, I'm going to call a personal archetype.  In my last three stories, the main character (a man) has had marital difficulties, and in two of the three, the wife dies.

Also, I'd say 95% of my main characters end up being Jewish in my head, but not on paper except in name and occasional behavior.  (I am of the Jewish persuasion.)

Does this happen to anyone else?  Does it happen to the "big" writers too?  Do readers mind so terribly much as long as the characters are well-developed in other ways?

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Alasdair5000

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Reply #1 on: December 18, 2007, 03:44:19 PM
Does this happen to anyone else? 
   Yes.  I have two very clear archetypes:

1.The V shaped story
Open with flashback, cut to present, cut to flashback further along, cut to present day, reveal relevance of flashback to present day, resolve.

2. Smart Guy and Funny Woman Solve Problems! And BANTER!
   In which an intelligent, nice, slightly put upon dude and his funny, smart, compassionate female buddy solve problems, banter and occasionally fight crime.

Does it happen to the "big" writers too? 
   The season finales of every Aaron Sorkin TV show have been called the same thing.  The line 'I hate his breathing guts' has turned up in at least two Sorkin shows.  It happens to the big writers too.

Do readers mind so terribly much as long as the characters are well-developed in other ways?
   Honestly, no, not at all.  There's a sense of it being the same as bands putting out similar sounding albums.  It becomes a signature, becomes a trademark almost.



Listener

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Reply #2 on: December 18, 2007, 09:18:51 PM

Do readers mind so terribly much as long as the characters are well-developed in other ways?
   Honestly, no, not at all.  There's a sense of it being the same as bands putting out similar sounding albums.  It becomes a signature, becomes a trademark almost.

I suppose I understand that POV.  I've come to treasure the grammatical errors and misspellings in Laurell K. Hamilton's novels, after all... :)

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gelee

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Reply #3 on: December 18, 2007, 10:03:19 PM
Stephen King does it.  A LOT.
All the main (male) characters are Stephen King.  He also likes to use certain descriptive phrases a lot.
By the way, my other bad habit is to unintentionaly imitate whatever I'm reading at the time, but I'm getting better about that.



wakela

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Reply #4 on: December 18, 2007, 11:16:42 PM
I think it's fine as long as the personal archetype is not itself a cliche.  Stephen King is a good example.  His main characters are always the same, but they are always Stephen King's.  I'm halfway into "Kancker's Yard" on Pseudopod and the ideas are cool, but I'm finding the main character dull.  Sometimes listening to your instinct leads to truths that are based on your unique set of experiences that only you can provide.  Sometimes it leads to Bruce Willis.



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Reply #5 on: December 18, 2007, 11:26:16 PM
I think it's fine as long as the personal archetype is not itself a cliche.  Stephen King is a good example.  His main characters are always the same, but they are always Stephen King's.  I'm halfway into "Kancker's Yard" on Pseudopod and the ideas are cool, but I'm finding the main character dull.  Sometimes listening to your instinct leads to truths that are based on your unique set of experiences that only you can provide.  Sometimes it leads to Bruce Willis.

There's a sort of weird relationship between personal archtypes and cultural archtypes (which may or may not be cliche, depending on other factors as well). I'm fine with authors who maintain personal archtypes. I'm also fine with stories that tap into cultural archtypes - the hardboiled detective of Knacker's Yard is one that, in my opinion, does so well, even though what is new in that story is the setting and interactions, not the main character. But an author who appropriates a cultural archtype, doesn't add much new to the character itself, and keeps on reusing it as a personal archtype, inevitably bores me.



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Reply #6 on: December 19, 2007, 12:16:24 AM
John Irving: inappropriate relationships and amputation.  They are always there, usually the main movers of the story, and yet I'll still read anything he writes. 

Me: characters whose genders are unknown (to the reader or everyone, depending) and something else I don't want to disclose yet in case anyone is listening to Beautiful Red.

It's actually strange - in my last novel I was trying something new in terms of genre and style, and was really proud of how I didn't include the Thing I Always Do. Until I remembered that I had, in fact, done it in an early chapter, and it was integral to the main sub-plot.  *sigh*



hautdesert

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Reply #7 on: December 19, 2007, 08:43:52 PM

1.The V shaped story
Open with flashback, cut to present, cut to flashback further along, cut to present day, reveal relevance of flashback to present day, resolve.



I wouldn’t say this is an archetype, not the same way that particular kinds of characters are, or, say, John Irving’s amputation thing. (Which I’d tend to call a tic rather than an archetype, but it’s a fuzzy line, so hey.)

What you’re describing is a structural issue, and while sometimes structures are authorial tics, sometimes they’re…well, structural issues.  The structure you describe isn’t something inherent in a writer’s psyche, but a particular strategy for dealing with suspense and forward motion.  It’s not a workable strategy, but for various reasons it’s a common one at a certain stage.

Suspense is a complicated thing.  Generating the kind of interest and movement that will keep your readers reading even when things aren’t exploding, or when your characters aren’t in actual, mortal danger, is tricky.  From a certain angle it seems like one of the first, most obvious, most simple methods of generating it is to conceal something important.  Your structure does that--it starts with a flashback (this tends, by the way, to really kill forward movement, which you really don’t want right at the start), then zips to the future, and then back again but doesn’t explain the connection until nearly the end of the story.  That’s the problem, right there, that “reveal relevance of flashback to present day” bit way at the end.  Assuming that the reader will stay interested just to find out what’s really going on…that’s not a safe assumption.  It’s not enough—and chances are, the thing you’re concealing is the most interesting aspect of the piece.  Why hide it?  Why save it for later?  Just so you can jump out and say “Boo”?  You’ll get so much more out of it if you just give it to us.

My rule of thumb is, whenever you think that the revelation of a certain piece of information is going to have some drama or energy to it, that information is exactly what you shouldn’t be concealing—it’s what the focus of your story is.  Give that to us right up front, and wring every bit of good you can out of it.

Now, this is harder than just putting the cool thing at the end.  Figuring out how to get the drama out of it—or trusting your material to actually work on its own merits—that’s tough.  But the results are much, much better.

Of course there are some very successful works that do the “sudden revelation” ending.  But they’re real virtuoso performances.  Pay close attention, sometime, not to just the surprise ending, but the way the writer has put together everything before the big reveal.  She doesn’t just throw a bunch of stuff at you that might or might not make sense and then, finally, give you the key to it.  The reveal at the end usually doesn’t finally make it all make sense—it transforms what had previously been an entirely comprehensible structure into something different.  Very tricky.  Worth trying, certainly, but not a good default setting for plot structures.



IT_Spook

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Reply #8 on: December 20, 2007, 07:23:31 PM
I think its a habit we all have to a degree.

Looking at my stories, most of my main characters are young, Anglo-Sazon, mid-Western American women who find personal inner strength somewhere during the course of the story.

I find I tend to instincively chracterize a character a certain way every time because it is familiar with me and a habit. Writing a story is like walking on a new path. You'd like to take along your favorite hat and stick for comfort.

Lately, I've been trying to break the habit of using the same type of characters over and over. I've been doing little exercises where I come up with a character with random features/personality and write two or three short scenes. So far, it has given a few new characters I can use that I never knew I could write about and it has also shown me that there are some types I really need to read more about (1920s gumshoes given me a big problem).

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Reply #9 on: January 04, 2008, 04:00:00 AM
John Irving: inappropriate relationships and amputation.  They are always there, usually the main movers of the story, and yet I'll still read anything he writes. 

I wanted to give a w00t and a ditto to that.

There are a few authors who have (like Alasdair5000 said) made their character tic a signature. 

One of my personal favorites was Kurt Vonnegut's Kilgore Trout.  Trout started out as a self-parody, but KV turned Trout into his avatar/mouthpiece/decoy/piñata/vetriloquist's dummy/foil over the years.  I know lot of people found it annoying, especially as the "gag" wore off in later novels, but I found it to be more than just a cute device.  Vonnegut had a way of drawing out irony in ways that still fascinate me; he could mercilessly mock the failings of humanity, while at the same time showing the deepest affection for us.  Through Trout, Vonnegut was able to hold "conversations" with his creation; he joked about being the God in Trout's universe, but in a way, those conversations felt to me like watching the atheist equivalent of prayer.  (He may have even described it that way in one of his essays... I don't recall.)

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Planish

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Reply #10 on: April 01, 2008, 06:08:17 AM
In the Ian Fleming novels, all of the Bond girls had a minor physical imperfection - a once-broken nose, a limp, a small scar, etc.

Is that an archetype, or a trope?

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jrderego

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Reply #11 on: April 01, 2008, 06:15:53 AM
In the Ian Fleming novels, all of the Bond girls had a minor physical imperfection - a once-broken nose, a limp, a small scar, etc.

Is that an archetype, or a trope?

Trope.

An archetype would be if Fleming had written Moneypenney as a dumb but very pretty blonde, or Pussy Galore as a scientist who needed to be rescued constantly...

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Reply #12 on: April 02, 2008, 03:06:23 PM
I find that, lately, my writing keeps calling back to what, for lack of a better term, I'm going to call a personal archetype.  In my last three stories, the main character (a man) has had marital difficulties, and in two of the three, the wife dies.

Also, I'd say 95% of my main characters end up being Jewish in my head, but not on paper except in name and occasional behavior.  (I am of the Jewish persuasion.)

Does this happen to anyone else?  Does it happen to the "big" writers too?  Do readers mind so terribly much as long as the characters are well-developed in other ways?

Roger Zelazny wrote the same main character repeatedly over several unrelated novels  :)

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Windup

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Reply #13 on: April 03, 2008, 01:06:41 PM

Also, I'd say 95% of my main characters end up being Jewish in my head, but not on paper except in name and occasional behavior.  (I am of the Jewish persuasion.)


I guess I don't see anything wrong with this.  I'd probably be interested in reading about a Jewish main character -- specifically, what is it about being a Jew that gives this character a different "take" on the world than a similarly-situated non-Jew?  You don't have to hit me over the head or anything, but I would think there would be those moments, reading along when I would say to myself. "Huh.  I wouldn't have thought of it that way..."  (I'm Presbyterian with a Swedish surname and mostly-German genetics.)

Just a thought...

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Reply #14 on: April 04, 2008, 01:43:11 AM
By the way, my other bad habit is to unintentionaly imitate whatever I'm reading at the time, but I'm getting better about that.

I've done that before... Especially if I'm not doing much else other than reading and writing at the time.

I wonder what it would be like to feel my brain...