Author Topic: Someone needs to take Orson Scott Card's Word Processor away  (Read 9712 times)

Ocicat

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I loved Ender's Game. Ender's Shadow was fantastic too. The later books following Ender I didn't enjoy so much, and less so as they went on, until Children of the Mind, which was a flaming pile of literary snot.

Now he's returning to the Battle School days again, with a heartwarming Christmas story?!?

As summarized at Amazon:
"Card returns to his Hugo and Nebula award-winning Enderverse saga (after 2005's Shadow of the Giant) with a heartwarming novella for the holidays. When Zeck Morgan, the young son of a puritanical minister, qualifies for admission into the International Fleet's Battle School, he is brought to the school against his will. Citing his pacifist religious beliefs, Zeck refuses to participate in any simulated war games, but when he sees a Dutch student give a friend a small present in celebration of Sinterklaas Day, he reports the violation of the school's rules against open religious observation and sparks an uproar over religious freedom and the significance of cultural traditions. Meanwhile, Zeck becomes a pariah until series hero Ender Wiggin finds a way to show him the real meaning of the holidays. Exploring themes of tolerance and compassion, this story about stuffing stockings is, fittingly, a perfect stocking stuffer for science fiction fans of all ages."

Ender. Teaches the meaning of the holidays. He must be stopped.



Heradel

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Reply #1 on: October 09, 2007, 05:41:29 PM
He feels like one of those authors whose latter works will be ignored by future english professors as not remotely living up to his earlier works.

The problem with Card is that he got swept up in the Evangelical Christian movement and lost his ability to write apart from that. Now he sees the world through that lens, and anyone without that same lensing is incapable of reading his works. His last work (the video game one) suffered majority from it as well (I wrote a review of it somewhere around this forum).

Edit — Review Here
« Last Edit: October 09, 2007, 05:46:18 PM by Heradel »

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Jim

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Reply #2 on: October 09, 2007, 05:53:24 PM
I heard they did take his word processor away. He's writing this upcoming story on tanned human skin with the blood of poor people's children.

Morbid joking aside, I hope it's a hoax.

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Simon

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Reply #3 on: October 10, 2007, 10:06:44 AM
I miss him... For about 5 years he was my favourite writer - period.  Screw Hemingway and Heller, I thought The Worthing Saga was the best damn thing I'd ever read.  Add to the top of that the first 2 Ender books, Songmaster and Maps In a mirror and the man looked like he could do no wrong.

I'm still convinced that him and Larry Niven have been kidnapped and replaced with robot drones...  I bet Jerry Pournelle is responsible.



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Reply #4 on: October 10, 2007, 02:09:16 PM
Am I a bad person to hope that Ender "[showing] him the real meaning of the holidays" involves stuffing something else? It's not going to happen given Card's views on homosexuality, but if we go with the "replaced with robot drones" theory...

Although I'm looking at the list of his works on Wikipedia, and he's written a lot more than I thought. With such a prolific writer, it makes sense that some works are going to be amazing and the rest might be not as good or just crap. I've read the Ender books (except for the recent online ones, I had no idea they existed), the Bean books, the Homecoming books, the Alvin books through Heartfire, and Enchantment. Hopefully I've gotten lucky and read more of the better books, but I was a kid when I read a lot of them so my judgment may not have been so refined.

I love Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead on tape, though. Xenocide just wasn't as good in general and Children of the Mind switched readers so it was even worse.

This xkcd comic is an appropriate addition to the topic.

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gedion_ki

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Reply #5 on: October 10, 2007, 03:05:21 PM
Wow, not sure what to think on Cards Holiday adventure except that it sure sounds like a let down. I wonder if Card has just been struck with a need to interject more religion into the Ender books especially the one book which seemed to be the lightest on traditional religious values?

Another motive to this re-visitation, I have heard that Enders Game will be coming out as a Movie in a year or so, perhaps this is just a marketing exercise? Pity either way.



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Reply #6 on: October 10, 2007, 04:10:59 PM
Look!  A Christmas Card!
*dodges tomatoes*

I miss him... For about 5 years he was my favourite writer - period.  Screw Hemingway and Heller, I thought The Worthing Saga was the best damn thing I'd ever read.  Add to the top of that the first 2 Ender books, Songmaster and Maps In a mirror and the man looked like he could do no wrong.

Worthing Saga blew me away.  Actually, the majority of what I've read by Card rocked me: the first two Ender books are amazing pieces of work.  I also thought Seventh Son and Enchantment were cool.  And he's been so damn prolific, there's plenty of old stuff he's written that I still haven't read (the rest of the Alvin Maker books, Homecoming saga, the second wave of Ender books, Pastwatch, Homebody, Lost Boys, and Treasure Box).  With that amount of stories, some of them are bound to not do it for me.

That said, I never connected with Xenocide or Children of the Mind.  And his new stuff, like Empire and Invasive Procedure don't sound all that interesting to me. 

Still, I might check out the Christmas book, and I'm curious about Magic Street.  Did anyone read that one?


Simon

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Reply #7 on: October 10, 2007, 05:15:57 PM

Worthing Saga blew me away.  Actually, the majority of what I've read by Card rocked me: the first two Ender books are amazing pieces of work.  I also thought Seventh Son and Enchantment were cool.  And he's been so damn prolific, there's plenty of old stuff he's written that I still haven't read (the rest of the Alvin Maker books, Homecoming saga, the second wave of Ender books, Pastwatch, Homebody, Lost Boys, and Treasure Box).  With that amount of stories, some of them are bound to not do it for me.

That said, I never connected with Xenocide or Children of the Mind.  And his new stuff, like Empire and Invasive Procedure don't sound all that interesting to me. 

Still, I might check out the Christmas book, and I'm curious about Magic Street.  Did anyone read that one?

For me, a lot of card looks a lot worse in retrospect than it did when I was reading it.  I spent a very long time hammering my way through The Alvin Maker and Homecoming books, and in both cases at the end of each volume had a "that was pleasant, but... what?" feeling, because nothing seemed to change between beginning and end of each volume.  His characterisation was beautiful enough (the man can develop near-complete human beings in a way few can replicate) that this never bothered me too much (although these problems get progressively more irritating the further you get through the endless-ology).  Then a few years back I sat with a practising Latter Day Saint who explained that they were straight-out rewrites of the stories of Joseph Smith (Alvin Maker) and Brigham Young (Homecoming), and that the bits I was totally baffled by were laden with LDS significance.

When you realise you've been desperate for the story to start in a parable, it kinda puts you off the whole process, although I will give the man kudos for seeding a stunning Iron Maiden record (without Card there would be no "Can I Play With Madness", it doesn't even bare thinking about).  Add that to Folk Of The Fringe (way too preachy), Pastwatch (morally repugnant) and Wyrms (just BAD) and my Card passion really cooled off.  He now sits in the same bracket as Heinlein - assholes with a streak of genius who I try to appreciate.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2007, 05:24:41 PM by Simon »



Leon Kensington

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Reply #8 on: October 12, 2007, 02:55:15 PM
I started reading Ender's Game and LOVED it, one of the greatest books I have ever read.  Then, I tried, emphasis on TRIED, to read Speaker for the Dead.  Which, after about 50 pages, I wished I was.  Now, about a year ago I read Empire.  And, I think I can sum it up in about 6 words.  beggining=good, middle=meh, end=WTF.  It started out great then just died.  I agree, I think its time for Card not only to lose his word processor, but also have a labodomy to remove the creative part of his mind.



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Reply #9 on: October 12, 2007, 04:15:41 PM
That's interesting.  I thought Speaker for the Dead was just as good as Ender's Game, just 100% different in storyline.  But like I said, the other two not so much.


Ocicat

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Reply #10 on: October 12, 2007, 06:24:00 PM
On first read I didn't like Speaker much just because it was so... different.  On later reflection on it's own merits it's a pretty good book.  The next two though are pretty much literary / religious masterbation. 

I was really surprised how much I liked Ender's Shadow.  Of course it's back in Battle School, which is a very strong setting.  Bean made a great lead character, and the different perspective on the same events of Ender's Game was really rather facinating. 

After reading Shadow I was all pumped up to read the further adventures of Bean, but Shadow of the Hegemon took my suspension of disbelief and hung it out to dry.  I just couldn't buy that these kids were so very important, and could manipulate entire contries so easily.  Since then I've pretty much given up on Card's later works. 



DDog

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Reply #11 on: October 14, 2007, 10:55:07 PM
Then a few years back I sat with a practising Latter Day Saint who explained that they were straight-out rewrites of the stories of Joseph Smith (Alvin Maker) and Brigham Young (Homecoming), and that the bits I was totally baffled by were laden with LDS significance.
I did not know that. That's very interesting. I don't know whether I should read up on them and reread the books, or just let them be.

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Reply #12 on: October 23, 2007, 09:01:52 PM
A lot of his books were influenced by Mormon mythology (and I don't really see a problem with that, since many of the greatest works of speculative fiction were heavily influenced by biblical mythology -- hello there, C.S. Lewis); the Homeoming series (which despite my early-teenaged enthusiasm, I recognize now were pretty awful) were practically a straight rewrite of the Book of Mormon.

I share the mixed feelings about Card.  I devoured his work as a kid, and I still feel that a few of his novels (Ender's Game, Wyrms, and a few others) and many of his short stories (if you haven't read the Maps in a Mirror anthologies, now's the time, espescially as the collected full anthology is finally back in print) are hugely important contributions to the SF output of the 20th century.  But at the same time he's also written some crap, and his personal views and the statements he's made about them often disgust me.

But I listen to Wagner, and I still read Card.  While context is of course important, to some extent it is necessary to consider art independent of the artist.  And ignore a lot of the later work.



wakela

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Reply #13 on: October 23, 2007, 10:56:29 PM
For a thread that trashes criticizes (justifiably) Orson Card, it's nice that so many are naming their favorite Card works.  My to-read list is growing.


***Ender's Game spoiler warning (most likely unnecessary)***


Ender teaches the true meaning of Christmas.  This would be after he kills the kid on the shuttle to Battle School, but before he kills the race of buggers.  Got it.


***End Spoiler***

Moderator:  Changed spoiler to white, so that the one person who hasn't read Ender's Game wouldn't accidentally read it
« Last Edit: October 24, 2007, 08:34:09 AM by Russell Nash »



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Reply #14 on: October 24, 2007, 10:54:09 AM
A lot of his books were influenced by Mormon mythology (and I don't really see a problem with that, since many of the greatest works of speculative fiction were heavily influenced by biblical mythology -- hello there, C.S. Lewis); the Homecoming series (which despite my early-teenaged enthusiasm, I recognize now were pretty awful) were practically a straight rewrite of the Book of Mormon.

Now there is an interesting point.  I wonder how many books/series out there are rooted in one particular religion, yet manage to avoid sounding preachy or indulging in outright proselytization.    I had heard about Card's LDS background before reading Ender's Game (an LDS friend recommended it), and loved the book in spite of my biases.  My mother, on the other hand, forced the first Left Behind book on me ("Oh, you're into science fiction?  You ought to love this!") and I didn't get through the first three chapters.  And had to go perform a lewd, pagan act to purge the smugness.

I'm sure there are many that I'm not aware of, but I enjoyed Robinson's "The Years of Rice and Salt" (Buddhism, Islam), and there's this Asimov fellow some of you might have heard of who wrote a couple of good robot series (Atheism).

(Any takers on a new thread?)

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Simon

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Reply #15 on: October 24, 2007, 11:29:26 AM
A lot of his books were influenced by Mormon mythology (and I don't really see a problem with that, since many of the greatest works of speculative fiction were heavily influenced by biblical mythology -- hello there, C.S. Lewis); the Homeoming series (which despite my early-teenaged enthusiasm, I recognize now were pretty awful) were practically a straight rewrite of the Book of Mormon.

I share the mixed feelings about Card.  I devoured his work as a kid, and I still feel that a few of his novels (Ender's Game, Wyrms, and a few others) and many of his short stories (if you haven't read the Maps in a Mirror anthologies, now's the time, espescially as the collected full anthology is finally back in print) are hugely important contributions to the SF output of the 20th century.  But at the same time he's also written some crap, and his personal views and the statements he's made about them often disgust me.

But I listen to Wagner, and I still read Card.  While context is of course important, to some extent it is necessary to consider art independent of the artist.  And ignore a lot of the later work.

Gotta agree with you, it's particularly notable with The Worthing Saga...

It's been a few years since I read it, but I remember TWS as an extremely elaborate moral/religious justification as to why humans live in a world where pain exists, and why god would feel the need for giving people free will.  I loved this, and found it morally fascinating, all these detailed short stories of individual living with a mixture of powers (over themselves, over their peers, and over their environment).  For those of you who've read it, we go from a man who is building a colony single-handed, deciding how much to intervene in the lives of his children, to children of that colony with psychic powers far greater than the rest of the planet, and responsibility to them, to the relationship between a planet of these "gods" and the rest of the universe.

It was fascinating, on the level of individual stories, and on a whole moral landscape.

It's probably The Worthing Saga that made me hate Pastwatch so much...  Because Pastwatch is a story who's abiding theme is intervening in people's lives in order to make them better, whether they want (or know) it or not.  I don't know if in the intervening years Orson became less of an individualist, but this idea of a morally unimpeachable heroine, deciding to jump into history and change it in order to alter the history of slavery was so at odsd with his previous stance that my jaw dropped.  When did Card decide to fuck free will, and not only attack things he didn't like, but wipe them from history?  The twist in Pastwatch only hammers home how right they were to be considering reshaping history in the first place.  So of course you can force people to be better people with the bludgeon of your personal morality.

I haven't read it in a few years, so I cant remember exactly why it made my skin feel quite so polluted, but I just felt that all the moral highground I had given him for The Worthing Saga's individualist morality, was demolished by this hideous book about the rights of the superior to fix the world as they see fit.

I had to take a long shower after that pile of poo.

But yes, morality makes some of the best SF, although I would say Tolkein more than Lewis (equally catholic, but so much more blatant).
« Last Edit: October 24, 2007, 01:42:00 PM by Simon »



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Reply #16 on: October 24, 2007, 01:33:51 PM
I think the point where it gets bad is when you stop thinking that it's the characters making the moral decisions.

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Reply #17 on: October 24, 2007, 04:40:52 PM
This is a hard one.  I am usually a strong advocate of Card's work, but it is hard to defend a "Christmas at Battle School" book.  Seems like a huge sell out to me. 

It seems as though his thinking was "Yeah, a Christmas book...that's sounds good...that will sell well...Let's see, the Ender's universe has been my most proclaimed series...I can throw Christmas in there somehow...maybe I shouldn't...maybe it would destroy all the validity and potency of the original story...yeah, but it will really sell...it's a Christmas book...it's an Ender book...how can I go wrong?"

On the other hand, Card has been an impact in my life.  The Worthing Saga, Ender's Game, Speaker for the Dead, Ender's Shadow, The Lost Boys, many other short stories--all awesome stuff!  I haven't read the Homecoming series or Pastwatch (sounds like maybe that's a good thing).

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