Author Topic: EP Review: Beowulf, Grendel, and Beowulf  (Read 23102 times)


Loz

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Reply #1 on: December 02, 2007, 10:36:38 AM
Sullydog questions what Christianity is doing in the film. One of the themes of the film is that humanity is emerging from the Dark Ages. Though it's not made explicit (I'd blame this on Gaiman only I expect I'd find out at some future point that Avary wrote this bit) I think we can expect that Hrothgar was only too willing to make a deal with Grendel's mother for magic being-a-king status, Beowulf struggles with it then succumbs, we don't know about Wiglaf but it seems as though he struggles harder than Beowulf if he does eventually give in. Grendel's Mother has to cheat to force a confrontation with Beowulf, she has to throw the horn out of the cave so someone can find it (or at least, that's what I assume she did) and show Beowulf and then claim the deal is broken. And at the same time in the society around them we have the slow emergence of Christianity as the beacon that will lead the people out of the barbarism towards the Middle Ages. At least, that's my impression.

As for the rest of the film, not having read the poem yet, I think I liked it for much the resons Sully didn't seem to. The middle of the film seemed too Gaiman for me, and not in a good way. With dialogue that often didn't say what it meant and mean what it said it appeared to me to be a script that relied on subtle facial acting that the technology is not yet strong enough to support, lots of narrowing eyes and sideways glances. Less CGI and more real actors might have worked better, alternatively a balder script might have also done the job.



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Reply #2 on: December 03, 2007, 03:54:08 AM
Beowulf, the poem, ranks in my life as both a writer and as a reader, as probably the most important work I have ever encountered.  I probably have re-read this work more than any other piece of fiction over the years.  I also completely agree with the reccomendation for Heaney's translation, it is magical.

However, while I can see Mr. Sullivan's argument for why he is uncomfortable with the film's mucking about with the essence of the story, I disagree that this detracts from either work (the original poem, or this film).  The relevant point I wish to make here is that one of the primary tensions of the film itself is the divsion between "History as record of events" and "History as narrative."  Wiglaf is cast as the keeper of the tale as it comes down to us in the poem, Beowulf, Hrothgar, and the Monsters as the only characters who know the "truth." 

The fact that the film-makers DIRECTLY address this division between source-material and presented-story (albeit chronologically inverted), for me anyway, gives the film a pass in regards to adaptations.  The adaptations and alterations THEMSELVES are one of the major elements of the film-narrative, fully awknowledged, and in the open.  After refusing to hear Beowulf's recounting of "actual" events throughout the film, preferring to only know the version of events that would eventually become poetry, Wiglaf is, in the film's enigmatic final moment, forced to choose between the these two "truths."

The magic, for me, is that REGARDLESS of what actually happened those millenia ago, the man (or men, or dream) who we know as "Beowulf" slipped the bonds of mortal reality and became an immortal legend.  I think that is the real point the film makers were trying to make, and that truth IS in keeping with the poem.

Eric Donelson



Loz

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Reply #3 on: December 03, 2007, 06:41:31 AM
On that last point I saw this story as addressing the same point as 'Troy' did, with Achilles, with the advantage that we didn't have several hours of Brad Pitt sulking and trying to look deep.



eytanz

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Reply #4 on: December 03, 2007, 02:13:24 PM
The magic, for me, is that REGARDLESS of what actually happened those millenia ago, the man (or men, or dream) who we know as "Beowulf" slipped the bonds of mortal reality and became an immortal legend.  I think that is the real point the film makers were trying to make, and that truth IS in keeping with the poem.


I agree completely. While I found the movie a bit underwhelming as far as the action and dialogue went, but I did feel a palpable thrill whenever someone in the movie said that Beowulfs name will be known and his tales told for ages, knowing that, unlike in many, many other films where this is said, it's the literal truth.



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Reply #5 on: December 05, 2007, 04:01:23 PM
With dialogue that often didn't say what it meant and mean what it said it appeared to me to be a script that relied on subtle facial acting that the technology is not yet strong enough to support, lots of narrowing eyes and sideways glances. Less CGI and more real actors might have worked better, alternatively a balder script might have also done the job.

I would agree.  CGI has come a long way but the facial acting weaknesses were evident.   I have not read the poem but my sons did in school so they were excited to see the movie. We saw it on the IMAX in 3D, it was quite the visual spectacle. 

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.    -  Carl Sagan


eytanz

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Reply #6 on: December 05, 2007, 05:06:41 PM
With dialogue that often didn't say what it meant and mean what it said it appeared to me to be a script that relied on subtle facial acting that the technology is not yet strong enough to support, lots of narrowing eyes and sideways glances. Less CGI and more real actors might have worked better, alternatively a balder script might have also done the job.

I would agree.  CGI has come a long way but the facial acting weaknesses were evident.   I have not read the poem but my sons did in school so they were excited to see the movie. We saw it on the IMAX in 3D, it was quite the visual spectacle. 

One thing that struck me about the CGI - almost everything looked good, except the women. They looked much faker then the men. Especially the queen, who looked like she was made of plastic.

It was also pretty obvious (but not surprising) how all the characters (with the striking exception of Grendel) had good teeth, were overall clean, seemed to have had recent appointments with their hair stylists and manicurists, and so forth.

And while I'm nitpicking (he said, rubbing his hands with glee), what was with the dragon who has one soft spot in his body, which happens to be exactly over his (rather small) heart? One more piece of evidence for the "moronic design" theory of creation.



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Reply #7 on: December 05, 2007, 05:51:09 PM

And while I'm nitpicking (he said, rubbing his hands with glee), what was with the dragon who has one soft spot in his body, which happens to be exactly over his (rather small) heart? One more piece of evidence for the "moronic design" theory of creation.

Gotta concur with you about the Dragon, that was the one part of the film that left me rather unsatisfied.  The dragon sequence in the original has always felt slightly out of place, it provides a conclusion to the narrative, but in my opinion anyway, it never felt like a particularly natural end to the first 2/3s of the work.   So I'm not really surprised the filmmakers felt a need to do SOMETHING to that part of the story, but the dragon-sequence as presented in the film lacked, for me, what magic the original brought to the narrative.

Eric 



Loz

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Reply #8 on: December 05, 2007, 10:38:46 PM
Is that where Tolkien got Smaug's weakness from? He had a weak spot in his chest too.

Eytanz, I noticed that too, the men were so detailed that you could see every computer generated hair on the end of Beowulf's nose, the women seemed deliberately less detailed, any actress who acted IRL as Robin Wright Penn's avatar did on screen would have been called 'wooden'.



eytanz

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Reply #9 on: December 06, 2007, 01:33:23 AM
Is that where Tolkien got Smaug's weakness from? He had a weak spot in his chest too.

No, the other way around - in the poem there's no mention of a particular weak spot on the dragon's body (at least not in the Heany translation). I think the filmmakers were directly influenced by Tolkien here.



Loz

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Reply #10 on: December 06, 2007, 06:52:07 AM
So how does Beowulf kill the dragon in the original then? 24 hour Danceathon? Get Doctor Ruth to talk about his apparent lack of genitalia? Or does he just play for time until his comrade can open the console of the TARDIS and become the Bag Wugluf?



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Reply #11 on: December 06, 2007, 10:47:11 PM
hey, as for adaptations... what about Eaters of the Dead by Michael Crichton? That was actually pretty well done, the film was okay too (The 13th Warrior).

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Reply #12 on: December 07, 2007, 01:47:19 AM
So how does Beowulf kill the dragon in the original then? 24 hour Danceathon? Get Doctor Ruth to talk about his apparent lack of genitalia? Or does he just play for time until his comrade can open the console of the TARDIS and become the Bag Wugluf?

My memory is a little hazy here (As I said, the Dragon bit never resonated with me anyway), but I reall the fight being within the Dragon's lair,  Beowulf sustaining mortal injury during his attack,  and most importantly, him needing some kind of assist from Wiglaf.  Someone with a fresher memory feel free to expand upon this, my attention has always waned for the 3rd act ;)

hey, as for adaptations... what about Eaters of the Dead by Michael Crichton? That was actually pretty well done, the film was okay too (The 13th Warrior).
 

Up until now, 13th Warrior was my favorite Beowulf adaptation, despite not even trying very hard to BE a Beowulf adaptation.  Haven't yet read the book, is it good?

Eric



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Reply #13 on: December 07, 2007, 02:15:31 AM
Up until now, 13th Warrior was my favorite Beowulf adaptation, despite not even trying very hard to BE a Beowulf adaptation.  Haven't yet read the book, is it good?

Eric

the book was very good. the tone was less dramatic than the film, but it was wickedly engrossing.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2007, 09:27:19 AM by Russell Nash »

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Reply #14 on: December 07, 2007, 05:38:01 AM
i give both the original Beowulf and the movie a big 'ol MEH.
tho im actually gonna change the movie's meh to a 'i am going to rip my head off, but i loved the cgi'

duno bout Grendel.

that movie was LOUD!
and overdone
and bad
and...
bad.

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


Sullydog

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Reply #15 on: December 07, 2007, 02:20:44 PM
The book that "13th Warrior" was adapted from, "Eaters of the Dead," was a fun read. Crichton used an approach similar to the one he employed with "Andromeda Strain," and presented it as the translation of an autobiographical manuscript by one Ibn Fadlan, a guy who diddles the wrong dude's wife and gets exiled to Great White North by the Caliph. Or something like that. If memory serves (it's been a long time), in the Appendix Crichton riffs on how the monsters could have been remnants of the Neanderthal.

All in all, "Eaters" was a fun read, although I seem to recall it suffered from Crichton's usual lackluster character development. And the movie, "13th Warrior" was...well, a couple hours of dumb fun. (Antonio Banderas learns to speak fluent Old Norse/Danish by sitting around the campfire and listening to drunk Vikings for a couple of weeks. Riiiiiiight.) I just didn't mention it because it didn't present itself as a "Beowulf" adaption (although you are correct that it was), and the review was getting too long already.

Thanks for all the comments!



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Reply #16 on: December 07, 2007, 05:54:19 PM
Antonio Banderas learns to speak fluent Old Norse/Danish by sitting around the campfire and listening to drunk Vikings for a couple of weeks. Riiiiiiight.

I tried learning German that way.  Now everytime I try to talk to someone here, they think I'm drunk.



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Reply #17 on: December 07, 2007, 07:23:32 PM
The thing that surprises me most about this film version of Beowulf is that it really is the first *major* film adaptation of Beowulf.  (The arguement could be made that 13th Warrior was the first, but I don't think it ever was trying to be a Beowulf adaptation -- it was tyring to be an Eaters of the Dead adaptation).  Considering how old Beowulf is, that's kind of fascinating to me.


I really enjoyed the book Eaters of the Dead and the movie the 13th Warrior.  One thing I find interesting about it is that Crichton basically tosses all the magic out of it and creates a realistic way that it all could've happened (without dragons and water nymphs -- basically just some crazy cult tribe).  It was an interesting take.


Yossarian's grandson

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Reply #18 on: December 11, 2007, 09:33:41 PM
Another newcomer here...
...nice to meet everyone!  ;D

Anyway, what I wanted to ask was: does anyone have any feedback on the other work that was mentioned, Grendel? I' ve not heard of it before, but my interest was certainly piqued.



WriterWolf

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Reply #19 on: December 12, 2007, 12:17:47 AM
Anyway, what I wanted to ask was: does anyone have any feedback on the other work that was mentioned, Grendel? I' ve not heard of it before, but my interest was certainly piqued.

It's one of those works I've always meant to red, but haven't gotten to yet.  That said I've ALWAYS heard very positive feedback about it both from scholarly types and more average readers.   My sense is that it's fallen out of vogue in the last couple of decades, but it's probably worth a read, especially if you're enamoured with Beowulf.

Those with more direct expereince of the the work might have more to add though :)

Eric



Tango Alpha Delta

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Reply #20 on: December 12, 2007, 04:06:15 AM
What is this?  No one remembers the 1999 Christopher Lambert version?  http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120604/

I don´t think anyone could surpass that scheissburger for sheer awfulness.  The CGI monster (Grendel´s mother) at the end of it was more poorly rendered than the Daredevil vs Bullseye scene in that Ben Affleck piece of crap.  And don´t make me remember how bad the script was... ah, too late.

Gah... I need to go brush my teeth now.

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jrderego

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Reply #21 on: December 12, 2007, 11:31:54 AM
actually...

http://www.horrorview.com/HallofShame/Beowulf%20shame.htm

Beowulf (AKA, How to Torture your English Literature Savvy Pals for 95 Minutes)

You know, there are times when I regret spending all those years in college...

Okay, just what in the hell is up with Christopher Lambert? Was he perhaps devoured by a pod leaving only a visually similar dopelganger to roam the Earth? Was his killed in some bizarre accident and replaced with a double sometime after Highlander? Perhaps he was strapped down and lobotomized... At any rate I think that Lambert’s career is just about over now.

I offer proof in the form of “Beowulf.” A completely unnecessary “update” of the 6th century Old English poem, which in this form is:

A: not a poem
B: Not in Old English

These two traits alone should send your Literature-majoring pals into spastic fits of excrement flinging fury.

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Tango Alpha Delta

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Reply #22 on: December 12, 2007, 11:47:23 AM
actually...

These two traits alone should send your Literature-majoring pals into spastic fits of excrement flinging fury.


I suspect that´s how the script was written... only instead of ¨Literature-majoring pals¨, they used that ¨infinite number of monkeys¨.

(Great synopsis, though... much more enjoyable that the actual viewing experience.)

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Sullydog

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Reply #23 on: December 12, 2007, 03:21:35 PM
What is this?  No one remembers the 1999 Christopher Lambert version? <snip>
Gah... I need to go brush my teeth now.

Dude, I remember. I mentioned it in my review. "Sucked mightily" were the words I used, if memory serves. You were warned. :)

Sullydog



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Reply #24 on: December 12, 2007, 03:24:46 PM
Another newcomer here...
...nice to meet everyone!  ;D

Anyway, what I wanted to ask was: does anyone have any feedback on the other work that was mentioned, Grendel? I' ve not heard of it before, but my interest was certainly piqued.

Welcome!

I can't recommend Grendel strongly enough. Don't take my word for it: surf the web for other opinions. It's a short novel, available in paperback, and just a lovely, devastating read. What have you got to lose?

Sullydog



Yossarian's grandson

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Reply #25 on: December 15, 2007, 10:40:08 AM
True, true. It's just that English language originals are sometimes hard to come by where I live (The Netherlands). And I'm not a great fan of ordering online, because I don't have a credit card (don't want one either).

Back to topic though:
' Sucked mightely' is a bit of an understatement, I feel. I couldn't even sit through the whole thing....



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Reply #26 on: December 15, 2007, 02:37:08 PM
True, true. It's just that English language originals are sometimes hard to come by where I live (The Netherlands). And I'm not a great fan of ordering online, because I don't have a credit card (don't want one either).

If you send me your address, and promise to read it, I'll see to it that you get a copy.



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Reply #27 on: December 16, 2007, 01:37:32 AM
I disagree with Sullydog about the Beowulf & Grendel (2005) movie. I found it quite enjoyable and well worth the rental. I haven't seen the one with Christopher Lambert, but it doesn't surprise me that it sucked. I haven't liked anything I've seen with Christopher Lambert in it.

In all versions of Beowulf (text and film) though, I keep seeing the plot hole. Why not have a couple of the guys stay awake all night in Heorot? I mean, hello - if you are at risk of being torn to pieces in the middle of the night, how could you sleep anyway?

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WriterWolf

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Reply #28 on: December 16, 2007, 04:39:43 AM
In all versions of Beowulf (text and film) though, I keep seeing the plot hole. Why not have a couple of the guys stay awake all night in Heorot? I mean, hello - if you are at risk of being torn to pieces in the middle of the night, how could you sleep anyway?

You're missing the point of this, and heoric literature in general, to see that as a plot hole.  The problem was never that Hrothgar's thanes were being caught asleep or otherwise unaware.  The problem was that even an entire army of mortal men could never have defeated Grendel.  The reason Beowulf triumphs is that he is MORE than a mere mortal.   This Anglo-Saxon poem lacks the "child of thus and such god" lineage embrodiery that the Graeco-Roman texts would have included (Much to the benefit of the Beowulf-story IMO), but Beowulf should definitely be understood as a man beyond men.  HE can defeat Grendel etc. because he's playing on the same level that they are.

Eric



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Reply #29 on: December 16, 2007, 01:38:13 PM
And I'm not a great fan of ordering online, because I don't have a credit card (don't want one either).

*Veering off topic - sorry*

Get a debit card.  Funds come directly out of your checking account.  No interest - no horrific consumer debt.  I buy tons of books and music with it.  I never use my credit card. 

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Reply #30 on: December 16, 2007, 10:56:24 PM
And I'm not a great fan of ordering online, because I don't have a credit card (don't want one either).

*Veering off topic - sorry*

Get a debit card.  Funds come directly out of your checking account.  No interest - no horrific consumer debt.  I buy tons of books and music with it.  I never use my credit card. 

There is also PayPal.  They are practically an online back now, from what I gather.

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Tango Alpha Delta

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Reply #31 on: December 16, 2007, 11:00:46 PM
What is this?  No one remembers the 1999 Christopher Lambert version? <snip>
Gah... I need to go brush my teeth now.

Dude, I remember. I mentioned it in my review. "Sucked mightily" were the words I used, if memory serves. You were warned. :)

Sullydog

See kids, just goes to show that paying attention for a few seconds can save many minutes of agony.

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I haven't liked anything I've seen with Christopher Lambert in it.

It's kind of like that tendency people have to sample the dairy products in the fridge even though they know they're past their expiration date.  "Gee, I liked Highlander... maybe this won't be so bad.... Oh, God, IT IS!!!"  [much violent over-reacting]


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Reply #32 on: January 03, 2008, 05:48:47 AM
The reason Beowulf triumphs is that he is MORE than a mere mortal.  ...  HE can defeat Grendel etc. because he's playing on the same level that they are.
Hmmm. He's certainly not the "reluctant hero" that is more common in stories.

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Reply #33 on: January 03, 2008, 01:13:29 PM
Indeed, "Reluctant Hero" is a pretty rcent motif, off hand I can't think of anything older than medieval literature that features anything close, and even then it's a pretty rare archetype.

It probably has something to do with the fact that in the modern western world survival, real actual survival, not just comfort, is really not very challenging.  In the ancient world strength of body and overriding self-confidence were definitely admirable, and indeed neccesary traits.

Eric 



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Reply #34 on: January 04, 2008, 04:35:45 AM
Yes, I think the words we have in our culture for the Beowulf kind of "non-reluctant" hero include "jerk", "thrill-seeking" and "arrogant"... though not necessarily in that order.

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Reply #35 on: January 04, 2008, 04:48:35 AM
No doubt about it!  That's one of the things that most fascinate me about warrior-culture.  The same sort of fellows who once would have been made kings and worshiped as living gods would today generally be mocked and denegrated.   At best they might play professional sports ;)  And even that certainly isn't neccesarily a recipie for rspect.

Yet, in their context, these ancient hero-types are still pretty wonderful to behold.

D/L



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Reply #36 on: April 02, 2008, 04:20:29 PM
I finally checked this out the other night and really enjoyed it.  It had all the makings of a tragedy and I was surprised by how involved I was with the humanity the actors brought to their roles, specifically Malkovich, Hopkins, and Gleeson, but Winstone's Beowulf was awesome.  He was a cocky, arrogant hero who I ended up loving.  The scene with the "sea monsters" fascinated me -- it could've been straight out of the pages of the Sandman.  I'd really recommend this one.


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Reply #37 on: March 04, 2010, 07:00:12 PM
I haven't seen the newest adaptation, and I haven't really had the desire to.  Computer graphics is great and all, but if it's not going to look real, then I'd prefer that it not look ALMOST real.  CG in movies like Shrek are great.  Real life action is also great.  But why have an Angelina Jolie that looks like a plastic doll of Angelina Jolie when you could just have her actually act in person and do CG effects around her (like 300 or other of the type).  Also, it's been a while since I've read the original, but I thought Grendel's mom was pretty monstrous, definitely not a Lara Croft body type.

I do generally like the original work, action packed, full of good adventure.  And I find it fascinating how boasting was almost it's own language and a badge of courage rather than just being annoying to all.  Modesty was definitely not a virtue!