Chekhov's Gun

[Planish]

The point I was trying to communicate (And quite clearly some of it stayed in my head, sorry about that:)) was that I have a fondness for the 'architecture' of a story showing through if it's done right, be it Chekhov's Gun in Grey 17 is Missing or Breaking the Fourth Wall in Outbreak.

Yeah. When it's in your face, it's usually for a bit of comic relief.

Something I've been aware of but only recently discovered that there is a word for it, is diegetic, and its complementary condition "extra-diegetic", in TV and film. I particularly enjoy when extra-diegetic sound track elements shift into the diegetic.

It's my favourite new word and I'll probably use it a lot for a while.

On a related note - I'm reminded of some discussion recounted on one of the LoTR special features DVDs, where a lighting director was trying to figure out the justification for placing a light in a certain position to highlight an actor's face, probably in Moria or some dark setting. He asks "where is the light coming from?", meaning "where in the context of the story's setting". Somebody else had then replied that it's from "the same place as the music!"

[Heradel]

On a related note - I'm reminded of some discussion recounted on one of the LoTR special features DVDs, where a lighting director was trying to figure out the justification for placing a light in a certain position to highlight an actor's face, probably in Moria or some dark setting. He asks "where is the light coming from?", meaning "where in the context of the story's setting". Somebody else had then replied that it's from "the same place as the music!"

I remember that story, it was the third one when Frodo was captured and in the Oruki tower. He was chained and on the ground and there was this etherial light on him and when one of the actors (the one playing Sam, if memory serves) asked the lighting guy where that kind of a light was supposed to be coming from, the lighting guy said "the same place as the music".

[Planish]

... one of the actors (the one playing Sam, if memory serves) asked the lighting guy where that kind of a light was supposed to be coming from, the lighting guy said "the same place as the music".

Ah. That sounds right.

If never used, Does Chekhov's Gun turn into a Red Herring?

I think Red Herrings are used purposely for misdirection, where the characters and/or audience are supposed to follow it to a dead end. Like the person who is the favourite suspect on CSI from between 25 to 35 minutes into the show. That's in every episode. They may be an accessory, innocent witness, or unwilling dupe, but never the main perpetrator. In House, they have new Red Herring symptoms every four or five minutes, it seems.

[Tango Alpha Delta]

Considering the original subject, I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned the infamous "red shirt guys".





 Oh, wait... I just did.

[Listener]

... one of the actors (the one playing Sam, if memory serves) asked the lighting guy where that kind of a light was supposed to be coming from, the lighting guy said "the same place as the music".

Ah. That sounds right.

If never used, Does Chekhov's Gun turn into a Red Herring?

I think Red Herrings are used purposely for misdirection, where the characters and/or audience are supposed to follow it to a dead end. Like the person who is the favourite suspect on CSI from between 25 to 35 minutes into the show. That's in every episode. They may be an accessory, innocent witness, or unwilling dupe, but never the main perpetrator. In House, they have new Red Herring symptoms every four or five minutes, it seems.

Yeah.  Lupus.

(It's never lupus.)

[Thaurismunths]

I can't help but think the 'guns on the mantel' are used because it lets the viewer think they're smart for having figured it out on their own, even though it's just because they're being fed the information in a more logical progression than the characters are getting it.
I suspect they're over used because with so many programming options most viewers aren't dedicated to any one show, so networks hope you'll skip to their program, feel smart for having 'solved the case', and stick around for a few more episodes.
Unfortunately I also suspect that over use of this kind of plot device is sure to lose as many viewers as it gains.

[Planish]

Placing the gun on the mantel helps to stave off accusations of deus ex machina.

... it lets the viewer think they're smart for having figured it out on their own.

That works for me. An essential element of game play is that it be "just difficult enough" not to win too easily.

[Listener]

Placing the gun on the mantel helps to stave off accusations of deus ex machina.

... it lets the viewer think they're smart for having figured it out on their own.

That works for me. An essential element of game play is that it be "just difficult enough" not to win too easily.

I guess that's why it's called "game play"... real life is never that simple.

Actually, I think some shows are cottoning to the idea of Chekhov's Gun and making it more difficult to solve the crime... like, purposefully placing the gun there, then picking it up, loading it, aiming, cocking the hammer... and putting it away so you have a free hand for the sword instead.

[wakela]

... one of the actors (the one playing Sam, if memory serves) asked the lighting guy where that kind of a light was supposed to be coming from, the lighting guy said "the same place as the music".

Ah. That sounds right.

If never used, Does Chekhov's Gun turn into a Red Herring?

I think Red Herrings are used purposely for misdirection, where the characters and/or audience are supposed to follow it to a dead end. Like the person who is the favourite suspect on CSI from between 25 to 35 minutes into the show. That's in every episode. They may be an accessory, innocent witness, or unwilling dupe, but never the main perpetrator. In House, they have new Red Herring symptoms every four or five minutes, it seems.

Yeah.  Lupus.

(It's never lupus.)

Saw a good Checkov's Gun on House last night. ***WARNING HOUSE SEASON 3 EP 4 SPOILER ***

The ultimate correct diagnosis (that could conveniently be cured with a single treatment) was worms all over his insides.  The kid could actually see them swimming around inside his eyeballs.  The CGun was in the beginning of the Ep he was drawing squiggly lines on his chalkboard.  This felt like the show was just establishing that he was autistic and uncommunicative, but it turned out to be the Big Clue at the end.  It made me think of this discussion and that if you sneak the CGun in your story under the guise of another writing device it can be more effective.

[gelee]

I heard a good one on the Drabblecast the other day, the story was "The Arc of Hronos."  I won't spoil it, in case anyone here listens to Norm but hasn't heard that one yet.
I have learned something from watching House:  Every concievable ailment can be considered a symptom the flu or lupus, but no human has ever had either disease.  If flu or lupus is ever indicated, you should immediately shave the patients head, as they in fact have lyme disease.

[wakela]

I heard a good one on the Drabblecast the other day, the story was "The Arc of Hronos."  I won't spoil it, in case anyone here listens to Norm but hasn't heard that one yet.
I have learned something from watching House:  Every concievable ailment can be considered a symptom the flu or lupus, but no human has ever had either disease.  If flu or lupus is ever indicated, you should immediately shave the patients head, as they in fact have lyme disease.

Maybe we should start a new House thread. 
What I learned from House:  You might as well let them prep you for surgery and have a crash card handy when you go into the MRI machine.  If you weren't moments from death before you went in there, you will be once they turn it on.

Maybe if the somehow established the danger of MRI machines at the beginning of the episode... (lame attempt to stay on topic).

[Russell Nash]

I heard a good one on the Drabblecast the other day, the story was "The Arc of Hronos."  I won't spoil it, in case anyone here listens to Norm but hasn't heard that one yet.
I have learned something from watching House:  Every concievable ailment can be considered a symptom the flu or lupus, but no human has ever had either disease.  If flu or lupus is ever indicated, you should immediately shave the patients head, as they in fact have lyme disease.

Maybe we should start a new House thread. 
What I learned from House:  You might as well let them prep you for surgery and have a crash card handy when you go into the MRI machine.  If you weren't moments from death before you went in there, you will be once they turn it on.

Maybe if the somehow established the danger of MRI machines at the beginning of the episode... (lame attempt to stay on topic).

There is the sign on the wall that says, " (flip card number) of days since our last death in the MRI machine."

[Roney]

Maybe if the somehow established the danger of MRI machines at the beginning of the episode... (lame attempt to stay on topic).

I don't think that any viewer who's seen the third Messiah mini-series (the one in the hospital following the prison riot) needs any kind of visual clue to be terrified of MRI machines.  I've no idea whether it's ever been shown outside the UK, though, so I may be talking to myself.

[gelee]

Saw another MRI scene on NCIS last night.  This time, a needle was yanked from a cadaver by the MRI.
Funny, because Mythbusters actually checked this out by sticking a piece of metal in one of the hosts and sticking him in an MRI.  No movement.

[Russell Nash]

Saw another MRI scene on NCIS last night.  This time, a needle was yanked from a cadaver by the MRI.
Funny, because Mythbusters actually checked this out by sticking a piece of metal in one of the hosts and sticking him in an MRI.  No movement.

I think it just fucks up the readings a bit.  If they know about it, they can work around it.  I think the whole flying metal stuff is BS.  It's kind of like metal in a microwave.

[eytanz]

Saw another MRI scene on NCIS last night.  This time, a needle was yanked from a cadaver by the MRI.
Funny, because Mythbusters actually checked this out by sticking a piece of metal in one of the hosts and sticking him in an MRI.  No movement.

I think it just fucks up the readings a bit.  If they know about it, they can work around it.  I think the whole flying metal stuff is BS.  It's kind of like metal in a microwave.

Um, I've seen (pictures of) the damage that flying metal from an MRI can do. It's not at all like a microwave. An MRI machine is a big ass magnet. Now, if the metal is embedded *inside* something more solid than jello (such as a human), then it's unlikely to be pulled out - that part is indeed mostly myth - but loose metal will and does fly and attach to the magent.

Here is a link to an article about a boy who was killed in 2001 by an oxygen tank which was pulled into an MRI machine by the magnet: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C04E4D91731F931A1575BC0A9679C8B63 . 

[Russell Nash]

Saw another MRI scene on NCIS last night.  This time, a needle was yanked from a cadaver by the MRI.
Funny, because Mythbusters actually checked this out by sticking a piece of metal in one of the hosts and sticking him in an MRI.  No movement.

I think it just fucks up the readings a bit.  If they know about it, they can work around it.  I think the whole flying metal stuff is BS.  It's kind of like metal in a microwave.

Um, I've seen (pictures of) the damage that flying metal from an MRI can do. It's not at all like a microwave. An MRI machine is a big ass magnet. Now, if the metal is embedded *inside* something more solid than jello (such as a human), then it's unlikely to be pulled out - that part is indeed mostly myth - but loose metal will and does fly and attach to the magent.

OK, I went to Wikipedia to sort this all out and there are three factors having to do with metal in the body and one factor having to do with metal in the room. 

• Metal in the body may move around, but that seems to be a problem mostly with metal fragments in eyes.
• Metal may suffer inductive heating like in a microwave.
• Metal causes a blackout effect in the scans.
• Metal outside the machine may be drawn to it.  So flying scalpels are a possibility if they are made out of ferrous metal.

Cool video here

[Listener]

Saw another MRI scene on NCIS last night.  This time, a needle was yanked from a cadaver by the MRI.
Funny, because Mythbusters actually checked this out by sticking a piece of metal in one of the hosts and sticking him in an MRI.  No movement.

I think it just fucks up the readings a bit.  If they know about it, they can work around it.  I think the whole flying metal stuff is BS.  It's kind of like metal in a microwave.

Wait... so... Roseanne Barr COULDN'T have blown up her house like she did in "She-Devil"?

Oh noes!  My entire perception of reality has shifted!

[wakela]

On Heroes they established that Sylar has multiple powers.  So they can then surprise us with new powers we didn't know he had, but we don't feel cheated.  It would be lame if Claire can suddenly see through walls, but it's OK if Sylar can. 

What would you call this?  Chekov's Collection Of Weapons Extensive Enough That It May Include A Gun?

[Heradel]

The Wire's opening credits is a good example of Chekov's gun.

[Listener]

On Heroes they established that Sylar has multiple powers.  So they can then surprise us with new powers we didn't know he had, but we don't feel cheated.  It would be lame if Claire can suddenly see through walls, but it's OK if Sylar can. 

What would you call this?  Chekov's Collection Of Weapons Extensive Enough That It May Include A Gun?

Well... given the backstory episodes, we know that Sylar only has the powers of people he's killed plus "grok".  To the best of my knowledge, they established which powers he had pretty clearly, though yes, I agree, they can surprise us with new powers.  However, if they do it too much, it becomes deus ex machina, not Chekhov's Gun.  Plus, IMO if Sylar uses a new power, it's not CG because the power he's using, at its root, is "the power to grok other heroes' powers by cutting off their heads and examining their brains".  It's the same power Peter has, although Peter doesn't have to cut heads off.  I almost think Sylar only cuts heads off because he thinks he has to.

[wakela]

On Heroes they established that Sylar has multiple powers.  So they can then surprise us with new powers we didn't know he had, but we don't feel cheated.  It would be lame if Claire can suddenly see through walls, but it's OK if Sylar can. 

What would you call this?  Chekov's Collection Of Weapons Extensive Enough That It May Include A Gun?

Well... given the backstory episodes, we know that Sylar only has the powers of people he's killed plus "grok".  To the best of my knowledge, they established which powers he had pretty clearly, though yes, I agree, they can surprise us with new powers.  However, if they do it too much, it becomes deus ex machina, not Chekhov's Gun.  Plus, IMO if Sylar uses a new power, it's not CG because the power he's using, at its root, is "the power to grok other heroes' powers by cutting off their heads and examining their brains".  It's the same power Peter has, although Peter doesn't have to cut heads off.  I almost think Sylar only cuts heads off because he thinks he has to.

Good points.
You're right, they established most of Sylar's powers after we saw him use them.  This is kind of like when the story starts in the middle of some dramatic situation, then the whole episode is a flashback.  This seems to be more common recently.  I think I've seen it on BSG and House.  Is this like a reverse Chekov's Gun?  If someone gets shot in act one, you have to show the gun in act three.  So our "ah-ha" moment comes not when someone gets shot, but when the gun is being cleaned. 

And yeah, I think Sylar just likes poppin' heads. 

[Listener]

On Heroes they established that Sylar has multiple powers.  So they can then surprise us with new powers we didn't know he had, but we don't feel cheated.  It would be lame if Claire can suddenly see through walls, but it's OK if Sylar can. 

What would you call this?  Chekov's Collection Of Weapons Extensive Enough That It May Include A Gun?

Well... given the backstory episodes, we know that Sylar only has the powers of people he's killed plus "grok".  To the best of my knowledge, they established which powers he had pretty clearly, though yes, I agree, they can surprise us with new powers.  However, if they do it too much, it becomes deus ex machina, not Chekhov's Gun.  Plus, IMO if Sylar uses a new power, it's not CG because the power he's using, at its root, is "the power to grok other heroes' powers by cutting off their heads and examining their brains".  It's the same power Peter has, although Peter doesn't have to cut heads off.  I almost think Sylar only cuts heads off because he thinks he has to.

Good points.
You're right, they established most of Sylar's powers after we saw him use them.  This is kind of like when the story starts in the middle of some dramatic situation, then the whole episode is a flashback.  This seems to be more common recently.  I think I've seen it on BSG and House.  Is this like a reverse Chekov's Gun?  If someone gets shot in act one, you have to show the gun in act three.  So our "ah-ha" moment comes not when someone gets shot, but when the gun is being cleaned. 

I blame JJ Abrams for that.  So many episodes of Alias were "here's something happening now, but let's go back 72 hours to see how we got here".  It is becoming terribly annoying.  I'm all for being dropped into the middle of the action and then getting SOME backstory, but not start-now-then-go-back-then-return.  (In the book I'm writing, it starts now, flashes back a few minutes through the first chapter, then every successive chapter flips from now to five-years-ago.  I started doing it because it was different; now it's just fun.)